GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => General discussion => Topic started by: RedHP on 21 January 2011, 20:09
-
Ok, VW are owned by a middle-eastern royal family and Porsche etc. But VW have a few marques under their own hat i.e. Audi, Seat, Skoda and then the higher marques i.e. Lambo, Bugatti etc.
But why oh why do VW make a Mk6 GTi (main marque) and then a Seat, Cupra or something, FR which has the same same (more or less) but as its lighter, its a little quicker. Then I saw a mag ad for this Seat, in a R model, which has either a 260bhp or 280bhp, i.e. a Golf R. Apart from weight, and therefore bhp/speed and also torque and maybe depreciation, why are VW making cars with similar performance..? I have used the Golf and Seat something as an example, but as VW own other marques I'm sure this applies to other model's..................?!!!
Its so annoying, seeing a friging Seat FR (or whatever) and despite knowing I own a Golf GTi, but knowing that the Seat is quicker. If it was still Spanish.....well............no comment..........!
Red
-
VW are owned by a middle-eastern royal family and Porsche etc.? ..RedHP
Ownership
Volkswagen is a publicly traded company, which issued ordinary shares and preferred shares. The ownership structure is complex. The following table shows the current shareholder structure. Note that neither the Porsche Automobil Holding nor the Porsche GmbH are identical with the Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, which is responsible for the production of Porsche sports cars. The Porsche Automobil Holding is owned by the Porsche family, the Emirate of Qatar, 49.9% are owned by the Volkswagen AG. The Porsche GmbH was sold to the Volkswagen AG.[30]
Shares Held by:
50.76% as of 30 Jan 2009 Porsche Automobil Holding
2.37% as of 30 Jan 2009 Porsche Holding GmbH
20.26% as of 16 Feb 2008 State of Lower Saxony
17% as of 18. Dec 2009 Emirate of Qatar
9.61% widely held
:smiley:
-
I don't see the problem most mk6 drivers wouldn't want a Seat Leon, its just the VW group competing across a broader market. Certain types will want a GTI over a Cupra regardless of power. :smiley:
-
I don't see the problem most mk6 drivers wouldn't want a Seat Leon, its just the VW group competing across a broader market. Certain types will want a GTI over a Cupra regardless of power. :smiley:
I'm of that type. :smiley:
-
I don't see the problem most mk6 drivers wouldn't want a Seat Leon, its just the VW group competing across a broader market. Certain types will want a GTI over a Cupra regardless of power. :smiley:
I'm of that type. :smiley:
That wasn't a dig by the way, I would prefer a less powerful GTI over a Cupra R, I prefer the styling of the GTI and the badge. :grin:
-
Audi S3
Golf R
Golf GTI
Leon R
All fours cars similar in their design, four prices, expensive, medium and cheaper. The reason they have threw similar cars is that people have different budgets, some people think Audi is a posh marque and some people think i'll buy a Seat as its cheap but it's effectivly a cheaper S3......
Each to their own I suppose.
-
We have had SEATs since 1997 and still do. IMO theres nothing wrong with them. VWgroup has always done what you talk about.
As an example.
Mk3 Golf GTI/GTI16V--->Mk2 SEAT Ibiza GTI/GTI16V.
Polo GTI--->Mk3 Ibiza Cupra1.8T(150)
MK4 Golf GTI(150)---> SEAT Leon Cupra(180)& Cupra R(210/225)--->Audi A3 1.8T(150) & S3(210/225)--->Skoda octavia vRS
Same with the mk5 platform and with the revised one on the mk6.
It was suppose to be split up a few years back.
Audi section of the group incorperating its lower sister SEAT and Bentley were suppose to be the sporty arm of the group.
VW with its cheaper sister Skoda were the mainstream and upper mainstream brands.
BUT it did not work out as planned due to loads of changes of managment.
-
My previous, previous car was a Seat Leon Cupra. 180 BHP, gun metal grey, leather, 6 CD auto changer. All this for a little over £16K. The equivalent Golf at the time (GTD not GTI - this was definately out of my budget), was £2K dearer and did not have the same character. It was VERY bland on the inside.
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for and that's why the VW group have different marques for all pockets.
I bought my wife a Seat recently. Nice car the Ibiza "Good stuff", just what she needs. Personally I like the stlying but you can already tell that it's not up to VW standards. the Blue tooth is just appalling :sick:, that is when I can hear her over the road noise (which is not always a bad thing :evil:)
-
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for.
I disagree with that from my personal experience and still a mk1 Leon owner. VW are trading off a name. My mk6 is not built/assembled anywere near as well as our 2005 leon is. My Golf rattles in many places and has cost cutting wrote all over it. Our leon has had one rattle in 6 years (back seat catches (Mk6 has one there too :grin: and many more)
I had a SEAT Ibiza GTI16V back in 97 for 4 years and we owned a polo for the same length of time, at the same time as the Ibiza. It was the polo that gave us problems not the Ibiza.
-
Don't know about SEATs but Skoda owners seem happy enough.
Maybe they are getting a real bargain.
Personally, I'm a fan of German engineering and quality.
Engineered and built in Germany. That's my choice.
I've always liked my VWs.
-
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for.
I disagree with that from experience and still a mk1 Leon owner. VW are trading off a name. My mk6 is not build/assembled anywere near as well as our 2005 leon is. My Golf rattles in many places and has cost cutting wrote all over it. Our leon has had one rattle in 6 years (back seat catches (Mk6 has one there too :grin: )
I had a SEAT Ibiza GTI16V back in 97 for 4 years and we owned a polo for the same length of time, at the same time as the Ibiza. It was the polo that gave us problems not the Ibiza.
Sorry mate, I dont agree. I test drove a Leon R before getting my GTI and had an A3 before and the Mk6 GTI is better quality inside for sure.
;o)
-
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for.
I disagree with that from experience and still a mk1 Leon owner. VW are trading off a name. My mk6 is not build/assembled anywere near as well as our 2005 leon is. My Golf rattles in many places and has cost cutting wrote all over it. Our leon has had one rattle in 6 years (back seat catches (Mk6 has one there too :grin: )
Snoopy, I'll not argue the Leon Cupra was a fine car. The first time I seiously put it into a corner I had to peel myself off the side window! It also had quite a bad turbo lag, which I only found when I tried having blast with an R32! However in the end it was like an airfix model. I spent more time sticking back the plastic dashboard plugs than I did hoovering the bloody thing! Perhaps this was in part down to my driving! :grin:
-
It has been said in inhouse meeting by head of Audi that they need to 'rise to skoda build quality levels and standard'. :grin: Its well known on the inside of the group that skoda has led the way for quite a few years.
-
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for.
I disagree with that from experience and still a mk1 Leon owner. VW are trading off a name. My mk6 is not build/assembled anywere near as well as our 2005 leon is. My Golf rattles in many places and has cost cutting wrote all over it. Our leon has had one rattle in 6 years (back seat catches (Mk6 has one there too :grin: )
I had a SEAT Ibiza GTI16V back in 97 for 4 years and we owned a polo for the same length of time, at the same time as the Ibiza. It was the polo that gave us problems not the Ibiza.
Sorry mate, I dont agree. I test drove a Leon R before getting my GTI and had an A3 before and the Mk6 GTI is better quality inside for sure.
See there we go. Another person who does not understand the correct meening of quality. Sorry but touchy feely plastics is not quality. This is why VW con the general public and writer journos to believe they are superior. Because non have any idea what engineering, correct design, assembly standards and the real meening of quality is. RANT OVER :grin: :smiley:
PS
I said nothing about the mk2 leon :wink:
As a design engineer i do assess things alittle different to alot of people.
-
However after a couple of years with the Cupra, the build quality came to be it's downfall. Constant rattles, bits falling off. My point is, in the end you get's what you pay's for.
I disagree with that from experience and still a mk1 Leon owner. VW are trading off a name. My mk6 is not build/assembled anywere near as well as our 2005 leon is. My Golf rattles in many places and has cost cutting wrote all over it. Our leon has had one rattle in 6 years (back seat catches (Mk6 has one there too :grin: )
I had a SEAT Ibiza GTI16V back in 97 for 4 years and we owned a polo for the same length of time, at the same time as the Ibiza. It was the polo that gave us problems not the Ibiza.
Sorry mate, I dont agree. I test drove a Leon R before getting my GTI and had an A3 before and the Mk6 GTI is better quality inside for sure.
See there we go. Another person who does not understand the correct meening of quality. Sorry but touchy feely plastics is not quality. This is why VW con the general public and writer journos to believe they are superior. Because non have any idea what engineering, correct design, assembly standards and the real meening of quality is. RANT OVER :grin: :smiley:
PS
I said nothing about the mk2 leon :wink:
Funny how you think I don't understand the meaning of quality, I could suggest neither do you but I won't :evil:
Jim
-
Funny how you think I don't understand the meaning of quality, I could suggest neither do you but I won't :evil:
Jim
You posted the standard responce of a golf owner. I have heard it too many time over the years, so it gets to me, maybe you do understand but by that single reply i assumed you do not. But they do say assumptions is the mother of all f**kups!
I have quite a few threads on here showing VW cost cutting and 'quality' :grin:
I am also a design engineer by trade and have in the past been consulted by nissan quality engineers on my views on certain aspects of pre-production models, so i must know something :grin:
-
Funny how you think I don't understand the meaning of quality, I could suggest neither do you but I won't :evil:
Jim
I have quite a few threads on here showing VW cost cutting and 'quality' :grin:
I am also a design engineer by trade and have in the past been consulted by nissan quality engineers on my views on certain aspects of pre-production models, so i must know something :grin:
I know what I like and I like my GTI, imo it's better 'quality' than my Audi A3. And my opinion is the opinion I always listen to :grin:
Jim
-
If you had said better feeling to the touch interior, better looking interior and looks more expensive interior i would agree. The interior feel and outside looks is what got me to buy one.
But the build standards, cost cutting, poor elec & mech design aspects is why i would never buy another.
-
The mk6 is apparantly cheaper to produce than the mk5 was.
So, yes that is cost cutting.
However the mk6 is a better quality car in all respects. I've owned both, I know.
It's just as much down to manufacturing processes and supplier contracts as it is engineering.
VW decided they needed to make the Golf cheaper per unit as the costs for the mk5 were ridiculous compared with the Ford Focus at the time.
They've done a brilliant job.
Modern cars are never going to be as over engineered as the mk1/2 Golfs were but the Modern mk6 is still a quality piece of work.
-
They've done a brilliant job.
Modern cars are never going to be as over engineered as the mk1/2 Golfs were but the Modern mk6 is still a quality piece of work.
The design-->production process and comunication at VW was dire, well a shambles, no a disgrace/mess. Its why the mk5 was expensive to produce. I work with Design Engineers similar to ones like designed certain asspects of the mk5 and don't think too far ahead and how are you going to produce that on a large scale to small tolerances. Having to assemble all those tiny parts when you could have made it one larger peace and had the same performance, I have to head them off daily.
Other companies manage to cut the cost but don't cut as many corners and design things the correct way and take basic design principals into account why carn't VW. Maybe its the high labour rates and been held to ransom by there workforce so they have to cut back even further than any other company to keep the price right.
Heres an example, VW in the trade (other car manufacturers) was held in very high regard to there look of the engine bay. They wanted to copy it. The covers the engine skid pans etc. Now they laff at VW for cutting corners in there. :embarassed:
I think The difference is you guys use the word 'quality' like marketing men use it and jounos, basically saying it has a nice feeling expensive looking interior. But i use the word as engineers do, correctly designed, extreme enviromental tested for extended periords, tested to distruction, designed for idiot quick assembly, built right, correctly assembled, no evidence of extreme cost cutting, etc etc. As a designer you don't have to cut corners extremely to cut costs if you know what your doing.
Anyway thats enough of my ranting as im starting to repeat myself... Time to get back on topic for me. :smiley:
They produce different versions of the same car with different badges because they can get away with doing it and they appeal to different groups. I know alot of other companys thought VWgroup would fall flat on there face doing it as there was too many over lapping cars. Now though alot of them have started doing it themselfs as they realise the BADGE meens alot to some people.
-
How does your EXEO compare to your GTI snoopy? In terms of actual quality and percieved quality?
-
This really is a strange thread. I'm not going into the politics of whether a VW is better than a SEAT and all that pointless crap. Like Snoopy I have an engineering background (though that was many years ago curtailed by Mrs Thatcher - I had to blame someone!!!) and have owned SEATs since 1998. I still have a 13 year old SEAT now which is my daily driver, and it is still in remarkably good condition considering the life it leads. I've owned quite a lot of cars over the years, well over 20 and most have been performance VAG.
To answer the original strange question, VW have had a stake in SEAT since about 1984 I think so is it really any surprise that if they develop a chassis or engine, each of which costs hundreds of millions of EUROs to put into production, that they want to maximise return on it? So they will sell as many derivatives of any given chassis or engine as they can. A bit of group competition is good also, as it helps keep factory standards up throughout the world.
The 'I bought a VW because I wanted a German designed and built car' is a bit of a dodgy one really as many of the components are sourced from all over the globe and the designers and engineers likewise. All the other big groups of manufacturers do exactly the same, eg. GM, FIAT, PSA etc.
This certainly isn't a new thing. The only conclusion I can draw from this thread is that the marketing men/ladies have done a very very good job of hoodwinking everyone. So they've earned their pay.
All I can say is I'm glad we have the choice as not so long ago VW GTIs were a bit sh!te and Cupras/FRs weren't. Who knows what the situation will be in a few years(?)
So thanks VW group for giving us that choice - even though your quality and dealers can be a bit sh!te!
-
How does your EXEO compare to your GTI snoopy? In terms of actual quality and percieved quality?
They body colour paint to panel edges unlike modern VWs :grin: It does not rattle and its older than the golf. The bits i have had to bits they have not done silly things. The dash etc feels like an audi (its basically an old A4 with an old audi cab dashboard). Its just a stop gap car anyway and is been passed to another family member in 7-10 months time. :smug:
-
I have paint to edges BTW :-)
And I'm rattle free :-)
-
Bet i could spot it :tongue: :grin: :wink: every golf and new polo i have seen has not got body coloured paint to the wing edge. Including the mk5s and i must have seen hundreds now as i wanted to see if its normal. It depends on what undercoat colour they have used on how easy it is to spot :wink: But thats just one of many things i noticed sadly. I dare not let my mate a Quality Manager at nissan who has to approve changes and give advice for changes to the engineers on new models look at the mk6 after seeing him pull to bits my last cars he would have a feild day with the mk6 :grin: Don't get me wrong i really like the car but as an engineer i see other engineers odd decisions then think why. :undecided:
-
Sorry to burst your bubbles:
On the Golf, the paintwork and lack of it is shocking, the internal panels look good but tick away, the doors and the bonnet are mis-aligned, the instrument binnicle is not securely screwed down as it ticks when you touch it, the external panels especially the front wings are really thin and much thinner than on my Honda, the RNS510 in particular, sounds rubbish and needs subs and amps to make it decent, the door mirrors have a mind of their own, the carpets are really quite low rent, the centre arm rest is very badly made and rattles if it is not in the zero position, the door cards feel as if they could come-off their fixings (every modern car feels so anyway), the steering wheel is 2" too shy in it's movement, the ride is too hard even in comfort, the 'tyres' (?) are noisy, there is too much wind noise IMO, the Halogen lights are pants, the reverse light is worse than useless, the area around the number plate on the rear bumper has a distorted surface on many GTIs, etc, etc!
But I love the car to bits as it gives me great joy. :smiley:
I suppose at the end of the day, that's what counts. Yes/No? :lipsrsealed:
-
Its the only reason i have not sold mine yet. :lipsrsealed:
-
Snoopy, you know engineering of a product is a compromise. As an engineer you should be able to look at other engineers decisions, analyse and understand why they made them. Not a criticism, just a comment. :smiley:
Quality is so much more than the methodology and empirical analysis of construction standards - it's also perception of value or sensation of texture and appearance amongst other things. I would debate that Nissan get the former correct but don't achieve the latter, even with the Infinity range.
-
Snoopy, you know engineering of a product is a compromise. As an engineer you should be able to look at other engineers decisions, analyse and understand why they made them. Not a criticism, just a comment. :smiley:
I know and I can, i do it daily at work as part of my job :grin:, but i also see so many stupid decisions that make no sense and not on price level. Basically bad design and bad decisions.
A couple of the design decisions i wait and watch for the problems owners will have claiming from VW due to rust and all the posts on forums when the cars hit 5 years old or prob less due to new design decisions but 99.99% of you don't care as you will have moved onto something else by then. :grin:
-
I've been driving land rover products for years so as you can imagine the golf paint and finish is miles better than what I'm used to - I'll always love. Land Rovers and Golfs though.
Years ago I came to terms with the fact that anything mass produced will never be to my expected standard, so these days I expect nothing and therefore I never get disappointed.
I dread to think of the monstrosity I'd build from scratch with a 30 grand budget.....
-
Horses for courses, I wouldn't want a Mk6, probably in the same way the OP wouldn't want a Mk2 :evil:
Thom
-
My company supplies VW/Bentley/Lambo with lighting components and they are of top quality.
As is the case these days, they expect ultimate quality at a cheap price.
We do this by strategicaly buying our manufacturing equipment and making it in places like Czech and China.
Lambo and top marque suff is made in UK as margin to pay for skills required is there.
Car quality is much better these days than even 10 years ago, it is a very competitive market which drives this up
http://www.wipac.com/