GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: Jack3559 on 10 December 2010, 00:28
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Someone on E38 mentioned they had just fitted some drop plates to their mk3 estate...
People on E38 are too trendy to help so I was just wondering where you come across these and what their actual name is.
From my understanding they bolt on to the stub axle to raise the whole rear brake/hub assembly further up into the arch, leaving the travel in the rear strut unchanged, they also have various versions so you can change your camber too.
I want to know where I can pick these up... They sound great.
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Never heard of them, but sure they are easy enough to make up. Would need to be some strong bolts and decent bit of ali.
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Sounds like a naff substitute for coilovers to me!
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Have a look in James fords thread on e38 mate. Think he got his from benchwerks???
Think it basically moves the wheel further back - I know on my 3 and a friends which are slammed on their ar5es, the back wheel loses it's central position and sits further forward than it should. Think they mainly help to correct this and in turn it brings the car lower. Not entirely sure but have a check on benchwerks or give the phirm a shout as I think they imported them for him.
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*banchwerks
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do you mean
http://www.mason-tech.com/greatplatesCW1.asp
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do you mean
http://www.mason-tech.com/greatplatesCW1.asp
I was thinking of those but they do not lower the car.
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http://www.banchwerks.com/plates.html
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Link posted to what I was talking about above! Thanks for the help.
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Wouldn't mind seeing a pic of them, see how hard they are to replicate :evil:
Seem like a cool idea. Not sure on the -5 plate though! :shocked:
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Wouldn't mind seeing a pic of them, see how hard they are to replicate :evil:
Seem like a cool idea. Not sure on the -5 plate though! :shocked:
Some guy on edition replicated them :) i'll have a look when i get home from work see if he posted any diagrams
Dan
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yeah id also like to see them as its probably something i could fabricate myself.
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There are two types:
One that goes at the mounts to the bodyshell, moving the beam backwards to put the wheelbase back on a very low car.
I suppose they could work...but why do you need them?
Looks?
Clearance?
I'm really unsure...
The other simply relocates the stub axles upwards on thick plates, whick leaves the beam at the proper angle, but lets the car be very low...all well and good if you don't actually corner your car.
Put it this way, if VW Motorsport braced the rear beam to stop the rear beam flexing and altering camber and toe...what chance has a 10mm plate got of keeping the rear wheels pointing where you want them?
Ans: none.
Waste of money...they are for the retarded that want to run uber low at all costs.
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word
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There are two types:
One that goes at the mounts to the bodyshell, moving the beam backwards to put the wheelbase back on a very low car.
I suppose they could work...but why do you need them?
Looks?
Clearance?
I'm really unsure...
The other simply relocates the stub axles upwards on thick plates, whick leaves the beam at the proper angle, but lets the car be very low...all well and good if you don't actually corner your car.
Put it this way, if VW Motorsport braced the rear beam to stop the rear beam flexing and altering camber and toe...what chance has a 10mm plate got of keeping the rear wheels pointing where you want them?
Ans: none.
Waste of money...they are for the retarded that want to run uber low at all costs.
Sound advice as always :afro:
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Waste of money...they are for the retarded that want to run uber low at all costs.
I didn't know Danny was retarded?
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I didn't know Danny was retarded?
If he fitted them things to allow the car to sit lower, it would appear so.
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I didn't know Danny was retarded?
If he fitted them things to allow the car to sit lower, it would appear so.
Slightly confused :shocked: i aren't running these?
Dan
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So... If I put these on the rear only.... That would still be bad?
I'm on shocks and springs and the rear is about 30mm too high.
It's an estate so spring cups are impossible to find and I don't wanna change my suspension setup as it's nice and soft at the moment.
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So... If I put these on the rear only.... That would still be bad?
To be honest I would never feel save using them.
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Found a link to a picture!
http://itsalmosttime.co.uk/blog/post/index/343/Thanks-mr-camber-man
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Found a link to a picture!
http://itsalmosttime.co.uk/blog/post/index/343/Thanks-mr-camber-man
That looks well dodgy :shocked:
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Yeah... It's sounding dodgier and dodgier the more I read into it.
All I'm waiting for is a "not safe for road use."
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There are much easier... and safer ways to get 'stance'
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Shut up with the "unsafe" sh!t will you, do you really think after all the money James has spent on the car, that he would run something sh!t!
All hes trying to do is sort out an age old issue of the wheel not being central in the arch when uber low..
As for the comments of "if you want a car to handle".. maybe hes not after some 6k screamer that is thrown all over the shop, maybe hes after an uber low, stancetastic car.. and judging by the air-ride and raised turrets hes running, i'm pretty sure thats the look hes heading for...
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Shut up with the "unsafe" sh!t will you, do you really think after all the money James has spent on the car, that he would run something sh!t!
All hes trying to do is sort out an age old issue of the wheel not being central in the arch when uber low..
As for the comments of "if you want a car to handle".. maybe hes not after some 6k screamer that is thrown all over the shop, maybe hes after an uber low, stancetastic car.. and judging by the air-ride and raised turrets hes running, i'm pretty sure thats the look hes heading for...
Sorry but still a daft idea, end of. :smiley: safety 1st when it comes to something as important as this.
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Please tell me how this is unsafe in your expert opinion
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Please tell me how this is unsafe in your expert opinion
So you would be happy to bolt your stub axle to a piece of 10mm plate with all the stresses and loads that they take.
Madness, for a show car maybe they will be ok but I would never use them on the road or even for show use myself.
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Please tell me how this is unsafe in your expert opinion
It's unsafe because you are removing the strength of a massive rear beam and transferring it onto 2 x 10mm thick plates and 4 x bolts with significant leverage forces they were never designed to see.
People brace the standard rear beam because it flexes...so if that flexes, what hope has a 10mm plate and 4 bolts got of keeping a fairly fundamental piece of the chassis design in a straight line?
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Well said.
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Please tell me how this is unsafe in your expert opinion
It's unsafe because you are removing the strength of a massive rear beam and transferring it onto 2 x 10mm thick plates and 4 x bolts with significant leverage forces they were never designed to see.
People brace the standard rear beam because it flexes...so if that flexes, what hope has a 10mm plate and 4 bolts got of keeping a fairly fundamental piece of the chassis design in a straight line?
Have a read of this then smart arse, they've been used in motorsport for decades.
http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223608
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Nice first post mate! :rolleyes:
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You're welcome :wink:
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My mind has been changed so many times during this thread.
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Well take a step back and look at it logically.
Now IF these things are any good and the jury is still out in my view you have to ask yourself why do I need it?
Seems to me the only reason they are on some cars is to give a lot of camber on the rear and that is purely for show!
Now if its because you want to keep some of the suspension movement consider alternatives, like coilovers with adjustable damping.
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Well take a step back and look at it logically.
Now IF these things are any good and the jury is still out in my view you have to ask yourself why do I need it?
Seems to me the only reason they are on some cars is to give a lot of camber on the rear and that is purely for show!
Now if its because you want to keep some of the suspension movement consider alternatives, like coilovers with adjustable damping.
Very well said Len :afro: better options available.
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Have a read of this then smart arse, they've been used in motorsport for decades.
http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223608
And if you took your head out of your arse and read the thread properly, you'd see that the Motorsport plates are fully braced...nut just a 10mm plate bolted on.
The comment stands...that thread also discusses fully braced rear beams - for stiffness. I'm fully aware of the thread...I have a fully braced rear beam on the back of such a thread.
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Well take a step back and look at it logically.
Now IF these things are any good and the jury is still out in my view you have to ask yourself why do I need it?
Seems to me the only reason they are on some cars is to give a lot of camber on the rear and that is purely for show!
Now if its because you want to keep some of the suspension movement consider alternatives, like coilovers with adjustable damping.
The principle is sound...relocating the stub axle to keep the anti-dive type geometry where it should be, but to do it by simply bolting on some 10mm plate acting as a lever, is not so great.
Fully braced up and engineered to cope...is a different thing.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Chris_Eyre/VW%20Motorsport/Mk3/tn_IMG_3974.jpg)
As the pic shows (shamelessly borrowed from Chris over on ClubGTI) there is more to making it strong than just bolting a plate on.
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Have a read of this then smart arse, they've been used in motorsport for decades.
http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223608
And if you took your head out of your arse and read the thread properly, you'd see that the Motorsport plates are fully braced...nut just a 10mm plate bolted on.
The comment stands...that thread also discusses fully braced rear beams - for stiffness. I'm fully aware of the thread...I have a fully braced rear beam on the back of such a thread.
Oh, well then! You must know what you're talking about! Just because its all braced in motorsport application doesn't mean it's necessary for road use. It's obviously gonna be under much higher stresses in motorsport. Have you ever felt a 10mm thick plate? There is NO way that it will bend lol. As for the bolts, how do you think stub axles are held on in the first place? It's no different! As long as they're the right tensile there's no reason it would be unsafe.
Besides, the plates that James has on his mk3 are a tried and tested product from a reputable company in the US.
There isn't a better way of keeping lots of suspension travel and being low, unless you get hold of some custom length strut bodies. Damping adjustable coilovers don't make a blind bit of difference when you're sat on the bumpstops, don't you thick race teams would have thought of that if it was the case?
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(http://d2eosjbgw49cu5.cloudfront.net/celebrate-wine.com/imgname--perfect_popcorn_pairings---50226711--37699061.jpg)
i've got a fiver on ess three here :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Have a read of this then smart arse, they've been used in motorsport for decades.
http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223608
And if you took your head out of your arse and read the thread properly, you'd see that the Motorsport plates are fully braced...nut just a 10mm plate bolted on.
The comment stands...that thread also discusses fully braced rear beams - for stiffness. I'm fully aware of the thread...I have a fully braced rear beam on the back of such a thread.
Oh, well then! You must know what you're talking about! Just because its all braced in motorsport application doesn't mean it's necessary for road use. It's obviously gonna be under much higher stresses in motorsport. Have you ever felt a 10mm thick plate? There is NO way that it will bend lol. As for the bolts, how do you think stub axles are held on in the first place? It's no different! As long as they're the right tensile there's no reason it would be unsafe.
Besides, the plates that James has on his mk3 are a tried and tested product from a reputable company in the US.
There isn't a better way of keeping lots of suspension travel and being low, unless you get hold of some custom length strut bodies. Damping adjustable coilovers don't make a blind bit of difference when you're sat on the bumpstops, don't you thick race teams would have thought of that if it was the case?
Without wishing to come across as ignorant (I know nothing about drop plates btw), but why should anyone take a blind bit of notice of what your saying?
Most people who have spent time on this forum will know the extent of Glen's knowledge. This combined with the amount of time/money he has ploughed into his 16v experimenting and perfecting it makes me much more inclined to trust what he says.
Are you talking from experience or just from what you've heard or read on the internet? :huh:
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Without wishing to come across as ignorant (I know nothing about drop plates btw), but why should anyone take a blind bit of notice of what your saying?
Most people who have spent time on this forum will know the extent of Glen's knowledge. This combined with the amount of time/money he has ploughed into his 16v experimenting and perfecting it makes me much more inclined to trust what he says.
Are you talking from experience or just from what you've heard or read on the internet? :huh:
Spot on Dom :afro: Glen know's his stuff.
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(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab311/Jack3559/imgname--perfect_popcorn_pairings---50226711--37699061.jpg)
This happens every time I start a topic.
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Have a read of this then smart arse, they've been used in motorsport for decades.
http://clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223608
And if you took your head out of your arse and read the thread properly, you'd see that the Motorsport plates are fully braced...nut just a 10mm plate bolted on.
The comment stands...that thread also discusses fully braced rear beams - for stiffness. I'm fully aware of the thread...I have a fully braced rear beam on the back of such a thread.
Oh, well then! You must know what you're talking about! Just because its all braced in motorsport application doesn't mean it's necessary for road use. It's obviously gonna be under much higher stresses in motorsport. Have you ever felt a 10mm thick plate? There is NO way that it will bend lol. As for the bolts, how do you think stub axles are held on in the first place? It's no different! As long as they're the right tensile there's no reason it would be unsafe.
Besides, the plates that James has on his mk3 are a tried and tested product from a reputable company in the US.
There isn't a better way of keeping lots of suspension travel and being low, unless you get hold of some custom length strut bodies. Damping adjustable coilovers don't make a blind bit of difference when you're sat on the bumpstops, don't you thick race teams would have thought of that if it was the case?
Is this your highly experienced engineering background speaking or just oral diarrhea I hear because im going with the later option seeing as I bend 10mm plus thick steel on a daily basis.
The moment I laid eyes on the design of these plates i was wondering where all the gusseting and strengthening features were hiding.
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Are you bending 10mm steel without massive amounts of heat or pressure? If not then I'd like to know how! Because it won't encounter either if being used as a drop plate!
Don't worry about my experience, I've done my fair share of stuff :wink:
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Are you bending 10mm steel without massive amounts of heat or pressure? If not then I'd like to know how! Because it won't encounter either if being used as a drop plate!
I'll say again...the rear beam flexes...it flexes enough to be unable to keep camber and toe angles constant through cornering...
Isn't a rear beam substantially sturdier than a piece of 10mm plate?
I think so...
Don't worry about my experience, I've done my fair share of stuff :wink:
Well that's alright then...you've done your fair share of 'stuff'.
Happy days.
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Oh, well then! You must know what you're talking about! Just because its all braced in motorsport application doesn't mean it's necessary for road use. It's obviously gonna be under much higher stresses in motorsport. Have you ever felt a 10mm thick plate? There is NO way that it will bend lol.
Of course there are higher stresses in motorsport...but fast road use isn't exactly stress free. Sure, if the car is a static show queen, it's unlikely to be a problem.
You could technically drive your car with only 2 wheel bolts holding the wheel on, as there aren't many stresses there when mooching off to the local Tescos...but would you?
10mm plate flexes...it doesn't have to flex much to throw the rear wheel alignment out, or to over stress the tightening torque on the bolts holding the drop plate to the rear beam leading to bolt failure.
As for the bolts, how do you think stub axles are held on in the first place? It's no different! As long as they're the right tensile there's no reason it would be unsafe.
The bolts are not the issue...it's the leverage on the bolts afforded by the 10mm plate.
Standard stub axles are bolted on with no leverage onto a fully braced section on the rear beam.
Besides, the plates that James has on his mk3 are a tried and tested product from a reputable company in the US.
Just because they are made by a US company, doesn't make them ideal.
There isn't a better way of keeping lots of suspension travel and being low, unless you get hold of some custom length strut bodies. Damping adjustable coilovers don't make a blind bit of difference when you're sat on the bumpstops, don't you thick race teams would have thought of that if it was the case?
I'm quite sure race team don't use standard dampers, or standard length coilovers...
In principle, the idea of re-locating the stub axle locating points is sound...however, it;s the method of simply bolting on a drop plate that is not so sound.
The pictures posted in the ClubGTI thread give examples of doing it properly, boxed and gussetted for strength...not just a 10mm plate bolted on.
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Posted on edition along with "these are from a mk1 caddy though so i'd get the bolt hole sizes double checked"
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/brobsGTIvr6/vwDROPPLATES.jpg)
i don't care if their safe or not, i'm not running them i'm just posting what was posted on edition for anyone that might want some making up or researching into them?
Dan
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Yeah, I thought I'd start that thread on edition to see what their side of the story is.
It's funny how they seem to be saying the exact opposite of what's being said on here.
More research is needed before I make up my mind on these.
As said, concept is sound... application seems flimsy.
Maybe a super braced and welded drop plate would do the trick.
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Yeah, I thought I'd start that thread on edition to see what their side of the story is.
It's funny how they seem to be saying the exact opposite of what's being said on here.
More research is needed before I make up my mind on these.
As said, concept is sound... application seems flimsy.
Maybe a super braced and welded drop plate would do the trick.
Yeah saw a similar username and thought it would of been you, i doubt as many people would use them if they were not safe we would hear alot more horror stories about them if they was that dangerous? i'm sure vortex will have alot more to say about them!
Edit:
there's so many on vortex that have been for sale and soo much talk about them, their not even going on about weather their safe or not as their such a common product!
Dan
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It's funny how they seem to be saying the exact opposite of what's being said on here.
No surprise there...many cars are trailered about and those that are driven are often nursed about because they are so low, and have such good paint.
If the car is never driven hard, then they are unlikely to cause problems.
Although, in the case of an accident, i'd like to see what the Assessor/Engineer has to say about them.
As said, concept is sound... application seems flimsy.
Maybe a super braced and welded drop plate would do the trick.
I agree.
Principle is sound...and fully braced, there is no strength issue.
But then shorter dampers do the same job, surely, and without the engineering work?
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As said, concept is sound... application seems flimsy.
Maybe a super braced and welded drop plate would do the trick.
I agree.
Principle is sound...and fully braced, there is no strength issue.
But then shorter dampers do the same job, surely, and without the engineering work?
I'm not trying to put forward that i know anything about these but isn't the main reason they use them on edition to put their rear axle more central when low, so dampers wouldn't have the same effect? i know i had a problem with the wheel sitting too far forward on the estate but that didn't really bother me, sorry if i've missed something here :D
Dan
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You're thinking of Mason tech great plates, they relocate the wheel backwards and forwards whereas these relocate them up into the arch.
The reason I'm looking into these is because I thought they'd be good for keeping the suspension as soft as it is at the moment.
I'm on lowering shocks and springs and I need to go a bit lower without changing my setup.
Estates on coilies that run super low are bouncy as f**k.
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You're thinking of Mason tech great plates, they relocate the wheel backwards and forwards whereas these relocate them up into the arch.
The reason I'm looking into these is because I thought they'd be good for keeping the suspension as soft as it is at the moment.
I'm on lowering shocks and springs and I need to go a bit lower without changing my setup.
Estates on coilies that run super low are bouncy as f**k.
Ahh i see, but in theory the same thing? just putting them further in the arch means their longer and not offset? yeah i see what you mean, going by the amount of people that use them over on vortex if made correctly i would use them. Don't know why you wouldn't rather go for coilovers though?
Dan
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I like my setup for reliability, comfort and lack of bounce!
I had coilies on my last estate and I much prefer the way the new one handles.
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You're thinking of Mason tech great plates, they relocate the wheel backwards and forwards whereas these relocate them up into the arch.
The reason I'm looking into these is because I thought they'd be good for keeping the suspension as soft as it is at the moment.
Mason plates are a whole different ball game, drop plates are still a daft idea and asking for trouble.
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The Mason Tech plates do a different job, as has been said...and again, are a sound idea.
However, once again, you are transferring the load from the rear beam into a 10mm plate and some very short bolts.
Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase back to where it should be on a standard height car, so takes the wheels away from the point where the tyres usually catch the arches...but to me, it's adding a failure point.
I'd not use them either....although, they are less likely to cause 'issues' than drop plates in my mind.
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Ive gotta say those Mason Tech sumpsaver skid plates look pretty damn good though.
(http://www.mason-tech.com/cw3/Assets/product_expanded/skidplate1_ex.gif)
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Isn't it just like a crowbar levering on the beam under some heavy cornering?
Would not like to be going round a hard bend fast then hitting a pothole with them on the back. Surely the flex alone would make the car handle worse, let alone if it sheared off.
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After finding a 3yr old copy of PVW, i started to research these drop plates, stumbled across this amazing thread, and the 4page link that's also in here, and i thought i would comment, and maybe anyone else considering this might benefit from this very interesting and envolving topic
brilliant article showing all views and experience relating to pros and cons of these items
wow,
cheers
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Where does it say that they are 10 mm thick,that one in the pic looks more like 20mm going off the 17mm bolt heads next to it :whistle:
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I think, the ones that were in pvw, which are the anodised black ones that pop up on google search are most likely going to be ok for fairly light use and get the thumbs up off me as a really good way to a: relocate the rear wheel in the arch,
and b: take the car down further so the suspension fitted doesn't have to work so hard at big level drops.
if it shows signs of exesive use, take em off and ditch em
the pris & cons could go on for ever