GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: DDg on 03 November 2010, 09:50
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Hi all. I'm wondering if anyone has managed to get a nicer sound out of the RCD-510, maybe by changing the speakers or adding an amp?
- Is the bottleneck the head unit (which I'd like to keep as it looks nice and OEM), or the speakers?
- Would adding an amp only benefit 'bangin choons', or would it improve the R2, R4, Classic FM and 'Dad Rock' stuff I listen to, at normal volumes?
- Ditto subwoofers. Are they for anything other than thumping bass? Like adding richness to the spoken word of R4?
I spoke to an ICE retailer who suggested Infinity speakers, and adding "an amp". But before I blow £400 if anyone's got any experience / suggestions / recommendations I'd be really interested to hear. Ta'! :smiley:
- oh, and if the door panels are coming off to fit new speakers, is it worthwhile putting in Dynamat type material, or is all that stuff a case of "the Kings clothes"?
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There is a dedicated thread on this started by FroGTi. You'll have to troll through the forum to find it.
How old are your speakers? They need around 40 hours to run in. However, the problem is the the mid-bas drivers are overworked by trying to produce bass, so the most cost effective solution is to install a sub-woofer. I had a Pioneer underseat one installed (see my signature) and it has changed the overall quality of the system radically. I don't feel the need to upgrade anything else for now at least.
I mainly listen to Radios 1, 3, 4, Classic FM and a host of Classical music CDs and I am delighted with the overall sound. It could be improved, but I don't feel the cost-to-benifit ratio is acceptable.
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Thanks am1w. The car's a year old so the speakers have definitely had enough time to bed in, plus I have to do something as one of the two rears has blown - it 'buzzes' ever since I over-indulged Pendulum on the motorway :smiley:.
So your sub isn't just for "thump thump thump" then? That's good to know. The under seat location sounds ideal. If you don't mind me asking, how much to buy and install, and does it affect your under seat storage (if you have one fitted)?
I'll have a search for the FroGTi thread, but still welcome any more reponses. Ta'.
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Hi DDg.
The sub-woofer has been installed under the passanger seat and is a perfect fit. Even when the passanger front seat is pushed right back, it is hardly visible. There is no room under the front passanger part of the seat as it sits neatly in the ledge, filling it perfectly.
You are right to ask if it is a thump, thump job. Far from it. Just cleans up the sound and allows the mid/bass door speakers to do their job properly by producing upper bass and mid-range sounds. Yes, there is more bass extension, but it is clean and sounds very integrated.
Total cost including installation £250, if I remember correctly.
Go for it, it makes a worthwhile difference. However, give it some time to run-in. :smiley:
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Here it is!
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=163647.0
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Cheers am1w. I was just about to post I'd found it too! But anyway, that's the sub woofer decision sorted.
Any views on replacement speakers? The ICE dealer suggested Infinity because I said I listened to spoken word and quiet music the majority of the time.
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Cheers am1w. I was just about to post I'd found it too! But anyway, that's the sub woofer decision sorted.
Any views on replacement speakers? The ICE dealer suggested Infinity because I said I listened to spoken word and quiet music the majority of the time.
Sorry, can't help you there. But try the sub-woofer first. You might not need to change the rest of the speakers. Best to do these things in stages so you can identify the problems in a more accurate and considered manner and thereby avoid upsetting the overall balance in such a way that you won't be able to see the wood from the trees!
All the best. :smiley:
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Hi all. I'm wondering if anyone has managed to get a nicer sound out of the RCD-510, maybe by changing the speakers or adding an amp?
- Is the bottleneck the head unit (which I'd like to keep as it looks nice and OEM), or the speakers?
- Would adding an amp only benefit 'bangin choons', or would it improve the R2, R4, Classic FM and 'Dad Rock' stuff I listen to, at normal volumes?
- Ditto subwoofers. Are they for anything other than thumping bass? Like adding richness to the spoken word of R4?
I spoke to an ICE retailer who suggested Infinity speakers, and adding "an amp". But before I blow £400 if anyone's got any experience / suggestions / recommendations I'd be really interested to hear. Ta'! :smiley:
- oh, and if the door panels are coming off to fit new speakers, is it worthwhile putting in Dynamat type material, or is all that stuff a case of "the Kings clothes"?
I take it you didn't go for the dynaudio option? Mine sounds very good, I listen to a mix of classical, rock, prog rock etc
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Infinity make very good quality speakers! you wouldnt go far wrong with a correctly set up pair of those.
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Thanks R32UK. I'm going to pop into the dealer tomorrow. am1w's right to suggest just to start with a sub, but as I need to replace the rears (one's blown / buzzes) maybe Infinitys are the way to go.
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Thanks R32UK. I'm going to pop into the dealer tomorrow. am1w's right to suggest just to start with a sub, but as I need to replace the rears (one's blown / buzzes) maybe Infinitys are the way to go.
Make sure any replacement speakers have similar sensitivity. If they are less sensistive, then you might have to buy a more powerful amplifier, as the 20 x 4 watter in the RCD/RNS 510 will struggle to provide adequate volume.
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How would the infinitys match up against the dynaudio option??
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No idea Ferris. But Infinity's have a very good worldwide reputation.
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If you have blown the standard speakers you must like it loud as its the only way to destroy them.
So with that in mind the amp and speaker upgrade to get more volume is needed and probably a subwoofer or high pass filter at least.
If you had simply said about your tastes and what you listen too i would have suggested a different route of tailering the frequency responce of the current system using something like the JBL MS8 but the destroyed speakers tell me a different story.
Dynamat adds mass to the door skin so changing the resonance frequency of the metal, this helping to improve the midbass responce of the system. Its often incorrectly called sound proofing.
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He must have turned the gain up to such a level that the amplifiers in the RCD510 clipped and blew his rear apart!
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Quick update. Made some progress and have settled on Audison Voce speakers, amp and sub, but it's also been suggested to me that I need some sort of processor to override the RCD-510's inbuilt equalising. It's an expensive option, though, and I'm wondering if it's necessary.
As I understand it, it's possible to recode the RCD-510 to give line level outputs and cancel it's inbuilt equalising, simply by using Vagcom? Can anyone confirm this method is possible, will work and give me the same quality as the processor route (or near enough)?
Oh, the rear speakers. One is definitely buzzing, shows up mainly when listening to Radio 5, oddly enough. None of the settings have ever been more than one or two clicks from Norm, and it's only been on rare occasions that the sound's been turned up loud and nowhere near it's max. Anyhow, they're on their way out :laugh:
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I put the fader to full front as the rear speakers sound terrible IMHO so try that first!
Has anyone retro fitted the dynaudio speakers and if so at what cost?
I quite like the idea of the under seat sub btw
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I searched for retro fitting the Dynaudio system but came up with nothing, Doc. If I'd ticked the Dynaudio box when ordering I may not be here now, as my intended aftermarket install will be quite a bit more.
The oem is quite good at some things - womens vocals on acoustic tracks sound nice, but as more and more instruments come in, it all gets a bit muddy and boomy. I think the rears dont help, but feel the fronts aren't up to it either.
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There is a long thread started by Froggy about sub woofers.
I have installed a Pioneer sub under the passenger seat and it made all the difference. I can now turn down the honking, booming bass of the RNS to one notch above minimum and let the sub take over.
The problem of flappy bass does not occur with the RCD310. However, the moment you 'upgrade' to the RCD510 or RNS510, the bass goes to pot and so does the lower mid-range. Hence it is essential to go for the Dynaudio upgrade with the head unit upgrade. I wish I had known this when I ordered the car.
Seems a bit like feeding the donkey through its arse.
I will try and post a picture of my sub location.
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Oh, and to add slight insult to injury, my system still does not sound quite as good as when it was the standard set-up if I 'remember' correctly. It is good but could be a bit better.
I think this possibly calls for an amplifier upgrade as a starter! Under the driver's seat this will go. Urrghh!
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When I were a lad back in the day...... I had some infinity speakers mounted in one of those accoustic shelfs (in a 1.1LX fiesta :smiley:). Wow they were just the best sounding speakers ever. They produced an absoultaly amazing sounnd coupled together with a half decent alpine head unit with no amp fitted. I think I paid a couple of hundred quid for them about 12 years ago.
The stupid sodding thing I did at the time was trade my little fiesta in for a new Vauxhall Corsa GSi and forget to take the bloody infinity speakers out. I bet the vauxhall mechanics were fighting over the speakers. I'm still gutted till this day :sick: Arrrrrrrrrrrr a bit of MAW73 nostalgia for you :smiley:
Now you've got me thinking about upgrading the speakers and fitting an amp! :wink:
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On another note, I listended to another Golf fitted with the Dynaudio system and could really tell much difference between mine if I'm honest.
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On another note, I listended to another Golf fitted with the Dynaudio system and could really tell much difference between mine if I'm honest.
Not quite the improvement one expects, I must admit!
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Can you believe it, I have been sent off to the Off Topic Chat section.
We were getting on nicely talking about rim protection for Monza Shadows.
If I change the heading, will I be brought back, I wonder? Give it a go!
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Martin:
First install a sub under the seat. Around £200 including labour. Give it a week or two to run in (40 hours approx). See what you think. Then consider an amplifier upgrade. Bit by bit is the best way.
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I think you're probably right with this approach, am1w... However (:laugh:), after I heard the B&W upgraded system in the Jaguar and an Installers own set-up last week I had one of those 'you can't take it with you' moments, so it's all being done next weekend. My only query was the need for the sound processor (Audison Bitone), on the previous page.
I started off wanting it all under the seats (amp and sub), but unfortunately the kit selected just won't fit, so I'll put the electrical gubbins in the boot sandwiched under a false floor, with a (faintly-embarrassing-for-a-middle-aged-man) sub in the boot too.
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I think you're probably right with this approach, am1w... However (:laugh:), after I heard the B&W upgraded system in the Jaguar and an Installers own set-up last week I had one of those 'you can't take it with you' moments, so it's all being done next weekend. My only query was the need for the sound processor (Audison Bitone), on the previous page.I started off wanting it all under the seats (amp and sub), but unfortunately the kit selected just won't fit, so I'll put the electrical gubbins in the boot sandwiched under a false floor, with a (faintly-embarrassing-for-a-middle-aged-man) sub in the boot too.
Snoops is the man with the answers, IMO. :smiley:
If you don't mind me asking, how much is that lot costing?
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As I understand it, it's possible to recode the RCD-510 to give line level outputs and cancel it's inbuilt equalising, simply by using Vagcom? Can anyone confirm this method is possible, will work and give me the same quality as the processor route (or near enough)?
You can do this yes. IIRC its listed in the maintenance section in the RNS510 upgrade/setup thread.
NOTHING will give you the 'quality' of a properly setup processor (depending what you class as a processor and quality). But getting someone skilled enough to set it up properly, has the man hours to do it, is another matter but ive been in the ICE game for over 20 years so have different views to some. IMO the JBL MS8 is a great fix and gets the tunning and setup there 90% of the way which is more than 99.9% of the dealers out there are capable of.
EDIT: I missed the audison bitone part as my post was typed as the last two were posted. The audison bit one is a good bit of kit (I have one) but it takes alot of man hours im talking days, of tunning and skilled ears to setup to get the 'best' results.
I find the JBL MS8 solution in 5 mins of auto tune, It got me to 90% of were i wanted to be and saved me weeks of tunning time.
I would say if your into serious world champion EMMA/IASCA soundoff competition then the Bitone has the edge and will get you that extra maybe 10% or less after months of tunning and tweeking you need to go from 2nd to a winner in sound quality but the MS8 i found to get your to 90% or more in less than 5mins of auto tune and make a huge difference to any system even just fitting it inline between the headunit and the oem speakers as it sorts out the frequency responce.
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Hurrah! The Batphone did ring! Thanks Snoops. I'll go with the Processor, then, but I think it'll be the Bitone. I looked at reviews for both the Audison and the JBL and whilst I think I'd be happy with either, the installer's doing a bit of a deal on the Bitone, and is recommending it. He has said there's a lot of set-up time* for the Bitone in the quote.
* but not months! :shocked:
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Just OT but be careful. There is alot of name=quality and BS in reviews and especially forums, so take any review you read with a huge pinch of salt as reviews and owners fall for alot of marketing hype and BS that companies feed out. Its funny when you have been on the other side and find out just how much voodoo and BS is fed to the public/dealers and alike from manufacturers to do with audio and they believe it!. :grin: Its amazing the power of suggestion and how your eyes can hear things or how certain tricks can show something is superior. :evil:
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Very true. I've read some absolute rubbish on the net about the industry I happen to work in, so I appreciate that it'll equally apply to any other field.
I actually went to 2 Installers. The first just didn't get what I was after. A big dealer, better on price but I know I'd have ended up with something capable of more than 140db... The second demonstrated their own install, recognised what I wanted and hasn't gone overboard in their recommendations (Me "Should I not get the next amp up?" Them "No, believe me, that's good enough" etc.)
Slightly off topic, but what's your view on playing music from a USB stick? I've a 16Gb stick full of music at 256kbps. Realistically would I recognise the difference re-recording my CD's in lossless format? The Installer 'tutted' that I didn't bring along CD's lol.
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Us audiophiles hate compressed music as i can tell the difference but its so handy having your collection available on USB stick :wink: so im guilty of that too.
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On another note, I listended to another Golf fitted with the Dynaudio system and could really tell much difference between mine if I'm honest.
Not quite the improvement one expects, I must admit!
He said "he CAN really tell the difference" :wink:
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On another note, I listended to another Golf fitted with the Dynaudio system and could really tell much difference between mine if I'm honest.
Not quite the improvement one expects, I must admit!
He said "he CAN really tell the difference" :wink:
Sorry to confuse you with my quote........ but I did mean to say couldn't tell the difference.....
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Just a quick update... Got the Audison Voce Component speakers fitted along with an Audison SR4 amp, Bit One Processor and Hertz Hi Energy 10" sub (in a box in the boot), along with the front doors covered in Dynamat. The amp's under a false floor in the boot, and the Bit One's currently under the passenger seat.
Results are very pleasing. So good that I'm listening to music I'm really familiar with, and all the time thinking to myself "I didn't realise that part had strings in it" or "the drummer was a bit flaky with his timing in the middle section, there" etc. etc. Acoustic guitar, vocals and drums (the "tappety tap" ones) are really crystal clear and incredibly sharp and precise. And the sub, whilst I don't like it taking up boot space, does do a worthwhile job. If there's a "Bump Bump Bump" accompaniment, it's like the B is provided from the fronts and the "ump" is catered for by the sub. Except it's just there, surrounding you. And when LCD Soundsytems' "Disco Infiltrator" is played loud it's like there's a wave of bass rolling from front to back, straight through you. Made me laugh.
Negatives? I'm getting more fussy with the quality of recording (I swear I hear a chair move during Vaughan Williams' The Lark Ascending) and the production of some recordings is simply flat and one dimensional (you can't make a silk purse etc even if you remaster Band on the Run...). There's also a little interference with radio reception (but that'll get sorted). Plus the BitOne is, as suggested, a hobbyists choice requiring a lot of tinkering and tuning. Maybe I should have gone for the MS-8 Snoopy... And then there's the cost. What started as a search to spend £300 or so to get a nice sound to match the Dynaudio I never ordered and possibly the B&W system in a colleagues new Jag turned into a comfortably north of £1500 "Maybe I'll do a little overtime this month" bill, and now I've been bitten I'm sure it won't be the end...
Would I do it again? Sure! I'm enjoying music like I haven't in twenty years, and even looking forward to long journeys up and down the M6.
Thanks again for the advice, audiophiles!
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You don't want to know what ive spent if your worried about 1.5K. :grin: Glad your happy or more or less happy now. As you say the problem now is recording quality is rubbish.
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You don't want to know what ive spent if your worried about 1.5K. :grin: Glad your happy or more or less happy now. As you say the problem now is recording quality is rubbish.
:grin:
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Before you go down the route of upgrades.
Make sure all of your stored music is at least 256k or Variable Bit Rate.
Original CDs even better of course.
Not much point upgrading if all of your compressed music is 128/192k.
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To improve the sound quality of the RCD/RNS 510 system, these are the four options with increasing costs + improvement in sound quality, which are worthwhile IMO. The retro-fit systems are also very discreet.
Option 1 - Buy the Dynaudio system as a factory fit, as it is excellent value for money.
Option 2 - If you have Option 1, then retro-fit a Front Passenger Underseat Pioneer TS-WX11A Sub-woofer (£150) for added quality by providing cleaner upper and lower bass and more bass extension.
Option 3 - If you have the standard speakers, then retro-fit a Front Pasenger Underseat Pioneer TS-WX11A Sub-woofer (£150) and Driver Underseat Kenwood KAC-X4D amplifier (£250-£299). This is what I have and the sound quality is superb.
Option 4 - If you have Options 1, 2 or 3, retro-fit some Morel Silk Dome tweeters in the front door housings as a final extravagant gesture towards excellence. I am considering fitting these excellent expensive tweeters.
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Option 5, buy my Bentley GTC from me and get a free £12000 Naim Audio upgrade sounds very neutral :wink:
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Option 6 - :grin:
Option 5, buy my Bentley GTC from me and get a free £12000 Naim Audio upgrade sounds very neutral :wink:
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Snoops:
Where can one get the Scanspeak Absolute 1" treble drivers? Will it fit in the GTI's treble enclosure? Will it cause balance problems with the standard mid-bass units?
The other treble unit that has been recommended is the Morel Silk Dome Tweeter. But it is very expensive.
Any other ideas?
Lastly, does one have to remove the door cards to replace the treble units in the front doors even though the treble units are in their own dedicated enclosures? I don't have the car with me to check, so I'm asking you as I'm sure you'd know.
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http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/scanspeak-32-c.asp
Door card has to come off to get at the sail panel.
Will they fit there no idea. I would go a-pillar custom build to reduce reflections off the instrument binical.
Moral not a fan too much even order distortion, non linear test results and not great QC in my experience.
If it was me i would replace the mid/bass first because i find midrange the most important to me and just highpass the standard tweeters higher then upgrade them later or you could just buy a complete 2way package.
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http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/scanspeak-32-c.asp
Door card has to come off to get at the sail panel.
Will they fit there no idea.
Moral not a fan too much even order distortion, non linear test results and not great QC in my experience.
Thanks Snoops. I have dealt in the past with Wimslow Audio for the treble units in my home Hi-Fi! It was ages ago and I have suffered many senior moments since!
I think I will leave it for now regarding the treble units and think about upgrading these in the future. The treble metal enclosure/grille does not help HF IMO.
Ooops. Read the rest of your post! Thanks. :smiley:
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It depends how low you run them and at what cutoff slope. In cars i don't like to run tweeters low and much prefer to keep them at 3.5Khz 24db/oct min or above that but this can cause problems if your midrange/midbass is not capable of producing the higher end stuff or its large and so has effects because of been off axis.
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It depends how low you run them and at what cutoff slope. In cars i don't like to run tweeters low and much prefer to keep them at 3.5Khz 24db/oct min but this can cause problems if your midrange/midbass is not capable of producing the higher end stuff or its large and so has effects because of been off axis.
Interesting about the 3.5 kHz X-over freq. To my ears I have always found it difficult to accept. I have always preferred X-over at around 2.5 kHz, but then the HF driver might produce a bit too much distortion. Anyway, it's in a car, so it matters much less.
The way it sounds now, it is quite amazing. Maybe it is time I stopped fiddling. :rolleyes:
When are you going to do yours? I'd love to hear it. :cool:
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Driver seperation is the problem imo. To image properly and most 'in car experts' disagree with me on this as they like ~2.5Khz too but i can hear small chamber tweeters struggle with decent dB lebels due to midrange info out of them, anyway. If i have tweeters on the a-pillars and midange in the footwells for example.(helps improve pathleangths and angling) If i have the tweeters lowpassed low i can on certain songs get 3 images of the singer, one on either a-pillar and one on the centre of the dash. Dire Straits calling elvis is great for showing this up for anything crossed below 5KHz!
Mines on the list of things to do for 2011 just its near the bottom of it. :grin:
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Driver seperation is the problem imo. To image properly and most 'in car experts' disagree with me on this as they like ~2.5Khz too but i can hear small chamber tweeters struggle with decent dB lebels due to midrange info out of them, anyway. If i have tweeters on the a-pillars and midange in the footwells for example.(helps improve pathleangths and angling) If i have the tweeters lowpassed low i can on certain songs get 3 images of the singer, one on either a-pillar and one on the centre of the dash. Dire Straits calling elvis is great for showing this up for anything crossed below 5KHz!
Lord, you know your stuff. :smiley:
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Should know alittle. I do moderate an audio forum run by an incar sound quality multi world champion and have been into this stuff since the late 80s.
OT: My views on audio are not always the norm, As i have been on the other side of audio and seen how much is actually myth, hype, marketting, there is so much brainwashing out there, i learn't after many many years of trying that once someones brainwashed you cannot teach them the truth as they will not listen it does not matter how much you try.
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The way it sounds now, it is quite amazing. Maybe it is time I stopped fiddling. :rolleyes:
I think you need to hear your new system in the real world i.e. when you are back driving etc.
Once its been warmed up and bedded in I think you will already have a 'premium' system
Enjoy it !
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The way it sounds now, it is quite amazing. Maybe it is time I stopped fiddling. :rolleyes:
I think you need to hear your new system in the real world i.e. when you are back driving etc.
Once its been warmed up and bedded in I think you will already have a 'premium' system
Enjoy it !
It will be bedded in pretty quickly even if I don't drive the car. :wink:
As regards having a 'premium' system, that's nice of you to say so. But ICE systems north of £4000 are considered premium, I understand. Mine is still considered a cheapo job as far as the ICE gurus are concerned. :cry:
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The way it sounds now, it is quite amazing. Maybe it is time I stopped fiddling. :rolleyes:
I think you need to hear your new system in the real world i.e. when you are back driving etc.
Once its been warmed up and bedded in I think you will already have a 'premium' system
Enjoy it !
It will be bedded in pretty quickly even if I don't drive the car. :wink:
As regards having a 'premium' system, that's nice of you to say so. But ICE systems north of £4000 are considered premium, I understand. Mine is still considered a cheapo job as far as the ICE gurus are concerned. :cry:
'Premium' does not equal better but quality and correct tonality, imaging, staging does not need to cost especially on the electonics side of it :wink:.