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General => The garage => Topic started by: emery1990 on 19 October 2010, 17:33
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Is there any one place where there is various live feeds? Like a manifold of some sort, I need about 3 live feeds but do not know where to get them from, Cant use the fuel pump relay earth trigger, as Im using that already, although following it in the bay it connects up to my water temp sensor, so going to need a new feed for that now also!.
Really confusing me.! :cry:
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permanent lives? if so battery positive. if you want ignition lives, look at black wire to coil, black wire to throttle body and black/yellow to over-run cutoff valve behind airbox
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Ok thanks, its ignition lives ill need.
Right I need to connect the ecu feed onto the appropriate relay pin? thats all the clue I was given lol. Someone told me to go onto the ecu relay, but I dont know how to connect onto it, ive found it but there's already two wires on it.
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there is no ecu relay on a 16v, on a digifant 8v the ecu relay output is a yellow/black wire on a 2 pin plug 'R' on the back of the fusebox.
missed this befoere, but whats this about the fuel pump earth using the same feed as the water temp? no it doesnt :grin:
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ohright lol thats what someone told me too do, use the ecu relay for the ms live feed lol
The yellow and red wire lol theres also a yellow and red wire connecting to my water temp/sender, the one on the left hand side as you look at it.
Edit, on your fusebox thread, what does like position 17 open mean ? does it mean, i could put a wire in there to feed something ?
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On this picture, what does each wire do ? Are there two live feeds is any one of them live whilst cranking? I need a feed that's live when cranking to feed my ecu. That black yellow wire ILl use that for my TPS if needed. blacks ground, but what about the brown and black wire and the white wire
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s108/emery1990/100_1329.jpg)
Also on a normal abf on the 3 pinned plug to the TPS, what are the feeds? tps signal, live and ground? or is it something else.
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the fuel pump relay red/yel wire is an earth, this is the trigger from the ecu top tell relay to switch on the pump. the red/yel wire to temp sensor runs to the dash, it has nothing to do with the fuel pump relay trigger ;)
brown/black is earth for the over-run cutoff, yel/black is ign live feed for the overrun cutoff. black and white are for the cold throttle enrichment valve, neither wire is any use to you.
on the kr throttle switch there are also 3 wires:
black - ign live
white - to throttle enrichment valve
black/yel - to ecu and isv control unit (live when throttle closed)
so use the black/yel wire in your picture, and the black wire to the throttle switch.
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Your the man! Ive got it all sorted now hopefully. So that black and yellow wire, I can use to power an ecu then yes, Ive got live to injectors and only need a live to the ms now you have said the black wire can go to throttle switch, as that was my next question anyway. If I can, ILl trun my engine on this weekend :D
Haha, dint think it would!
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been advised by danny p to rip the whole lot and just use the plug, so going to start it all over again.!
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i know it sounds a brutal solution but i has a horrible feeling your going to spend a long time chaseing ghosts, i have allways found it faster to build MS looms from scratch.
i would say this applyes even more when you have limuted experiance with automotive electrics as it removes dought and when your going for first start theer are enough varibles to play with why add uncertanty. also iirc you need to do a tweeks to get the ms to work completly with the vw fusebox
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yeah agreed, it would be best to take it out the car, strip down then make a nice fresh ms loom, just wasn't sure if you wanted to go that route :)
if you want an ecu relay you'll have to add one above the CE1 fusebox, unless you can find a plug 'R' from a digifant MK2. if you can get one of these you could pop an ecu relay in the factory spot, but tbh adding a relay above the fusebox is just fine. i use vag relay holders when i make abf/vr6 looms for this purpose. the only other feed you need is the fuel pump trigger wire, danny does megasquirt provide an earth trigger for the pump relay?
you can use pin N to power the injectors if you can find a spade big enough, however this pin isnt fused. there will be a white/red wire which originally fed the WUR which you could use to feed the injectors and thats fused from the factory fuel pump fuse
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Nah it's ok rather you say something then me stressing myself out other something that sounds pretty simple! It starting to sound a bit more easier, as you said, I dont need to identify anything for a start, Ill get it out first, looks like my servo used to a submarine or something, rusty!
Ill get one of those relay holders then, do I just get any old relay or an actual ecu relay, then get a feed to it then just take a feed to my ms. That whats feeding my injectors, the red/white one.
What sort of mods are they ? maybe adding the ecu relay is one?
Will get it out probs tomorow hopefully weather permitting.
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fuel lpump relay connects to pin 37, it connects pin to ground to trigger the relay.
i rember the problem i had with ms and a vw fusebox / loom now. it was when i put the ms inside a vw ecu box to make it plug and play. the ISV was partly an issue . and the otherone problem i hit was golf syncro related and i'm pritty sure it was a syncro specific quirk as they have one or two of them that liek to bite occasinaly
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a std switching relay is fine, ce1 digi mk2 uses a vw 53 relay for the ecu which will be fine. what i do is go to scrappy and chop out a load of relay holders for my looms, that way they clip neatly to the top of the fusebox. can be a mare to unclip just look at em carefully you'll see there is either 1 clip in the middle or 2 clips either side of the relay holder. dont get too rough or you'll snap the clips off and defeat the whole point of using the holder :grin:
CE1 plug D is for the engine loom, these are the pins you want to be looking at:
D
2 - blk - ignition live feed (this is the one digifant uses to trigger the ecu relay)
7 - blk - ignition live feed (also a blk/yel to the coolant level relay, dont cut that one splice to the black wire)
13- red/yel-fuel pump relay earth trigger
23- blk - ignition coil live feed
26- red/blk- rev counter feed, may need a conversion box depending how you trigger your spark
in addition:
E/14 - red/wht - should be a spade on this one, this is a fuel pump live. could use this for lambda and/or fuel injectors
N - fuel pump feed - the spade connector on this one is massive so would need to find one big enough. plus it unfused so bear that in mind
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Glad I didnt just go cutting everything, I was going to just cut everything off at that white plug, but thought I'd ask first! Do I get some holders from any vw?
Right so, I cut number 2 and put that to my ecu relay Ill be getting then get ms to the ecu relay.
Dont understand what you mean about splicing the black one to the black one?
13- thats going to my fuel pump wire for ms
23 do I leave that put?
26 - Leave that put aswell, triggering spark from my dizzy.
Im not using an ISV, just going to have to rev it a bit, I'm use to that anyway from the kjet system!
e/14 that goes to my fuel injectors.
Everything else on that plug I can cut off, Ive got a few wires going to different plugs, ones a blue/yellow wire, shall I cut these too.
Servo etc is out.
Basically, is it all the wires from plug D that go into the engine bay, should be cut? And ones that go else where should be kept?
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the isv is easy to drive with ms it's only really used during the warmup perios anyway, you can make them idel nicely with the ignition map even with bumpy cams and itbs :nerd:
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sorry what i meant was on pin D/7 there are 2 wires coming out the same pin, the black wire plus a black/yellow one which runs to the coolant level sensor relay. dont cut the black/yel wire as you need that relay, cut/splice to the black wire :)
you want vw/seat from up to late 90s for the relay holder you need, pretty much all of them will have at least 1 extra relay above the fusebox. chop it out then remove all the spade terminals from it, then add your own spades at the right points for the relay you choose to use. ideally get yourself a holder with a 53 relay in it, that way you wont even have to remove the old spades just splice into the existing wires.
you dont cut all the wires to the D plug, you need quite a few of em still as they're for dash temp, oil sensors, wipers etc. look at my fusebox faq in the mk2 maintenance section, find the part that covers pre-90 MK2 Golf and it has the complete listing for the D plug. the pin numbers are written on the front, match the wires and positions carefully and only cut out what tyou dont need from the old engine managment (pretty mcuh the wires you cut are the ones i have listed above)
if you unwrap the old engine loom completly it should become pretty obvious which wires you want to keep, and which ones can be removed, but if you get stuck or are unsure let us know and we'll try to help :)
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Brilliant, cheers Ill get cracking.
Oh I gets you about the d7 now!
Can I just buy the relay holder brand new ? Or Do I have to go around scrapyards searching. Id rather get a 53 relay, sounds easier. But If dont get a 53 pin, how do I know where to put my new spades if I dont get a 53 relay ?
So them wires I cut, shall I just get some new wire and take that to the places I need? TBH I only needs to get a live to my throttle switch now, should I get my injector live from somewhere else? I ask as Ive got a removable lamda- lc-1 and is that e/14 the only wire I can connect onto ?.Can I feed my injectors off of 23 ignition coil live ( As currently injectors areon e/14 but may have to move to allow e/14 to connect to 02 sensor)
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can get relay holder from vag: 161 937 501 B - 3.94+VAT
just use the relay you choose as a guide for the pin locations, read the pin numbers off the relay and put your spades in the right spot. you need the spades with the retaining pegs though, the ones you get from halfords in different colours wont cut it. either chop the wires out of scrappy and solder, or buy new ones from polevolt.co.uk and invest in a proper ratchet criming tool for non-insulated terminals
you could use new wire or the bits cut out of your old loom if in good nick. your call! injector live you can either use E/14, pin N or could use the power output from the megasquirt ecu relay, same as factory CE1 digifant mk2. same answer for the lambda probe, though usually these get fuel pump live rather than ecu live.
I'd not run either direct from the coil live, as you dont want anything thats putting too much electrical load on the ign circuit, injectors i guess wont be too bad but lambda probe heater i suppose would be reasonably high current.
if it was me, I'd have lambda probe heater to E/14, and injectors from the ecu relay live. or just run both injectors and lambda to E/14
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OK cheers, this is helping loads! becoming much clearer now.
One last question then I can relax and then ILL do all what youve said.
Is there a few live feeds on the ecu relay ill be getting, as i wont one live for my ms dont I, then another one for my injectors.
Danny, would I put the MS 02 sensor wire to the e/14, or would I connect the actual sensor to that then the ms 02 wire goes to the sensor aswell? If the first one, then Id need to make it a plug wouldnt I, as the 02 sensor will only be for mapping so then I can just unplug it.
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if your running a wideband, you wideband will need a good ground. and a +12v fuel pump relay is a good sorce for this.
the widebands signal output goes directly into the ms.
you are really confuseing me with this live for the throttel switch bussness. the ms itslef dosent use a throttel switch it uses the throttel position sensor if your thinking of connecting +12v to that it's a really BAD idea if it dsent actual damage the ecu it will at least mean teh throttel is uncalibratable as in a car +12 volts is actauly a big lie we often just refer to unregulated lives in cars as +volts as they can swing between 9v and 14.4v ( and possobly more if youve got a dodgey alt) hence why V ref is used to supply a regulated 6v supply to the tps, so that the voltage returning down TPS sig is allway the same for the same throttel opening.
tho the TPS is normaly just used for accsel inrichent unless your running in alpha N but even so tuneing your accsel inrichment won't happen if running alpha N getting it to run would be a big achevement.
have you had a read of the MS manual if not would you like me to chuck some links up ?
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Ok thanks Danny.
Sorry,the throttle switch, not connecting it too ms at all, but the actual throttle switch needs a live and ground doesnt it?
Oh ok then, connecting the wide band up sounds pretty simple then, needs a live and ground and feed to the ms.
I have read it, been reading the tuning side of it though. The wiring bit of it Ive read too, is there anything specific I should be reading, ie go over it again and make sure I fully understand it.
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the throttel position switch dosent get connected to a 12 volt live. it gets connected to a +5 live that comes from the ecu itself
(http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/v3ext_wiring.gif)
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are you talking about the old 2 pin throttle switch on the back of the abf throttle body? if so you dont need to do anything with it, all megasquirt needs is the 3 pin tps on the front. the tps has 2 wires direct to the megasquirt ecu (pin 22 and 26 I think?) 3rd wire you run to ground.
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Yer thats the one I was on about :laugh:
Thought I still needed it, cheers.!
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Just ordered my ecu relay and holder, the man at vw was an idiot, but he said is it the 9 pinned one you wanted, I didnt know they came in different pins, I still just ordered it, will it be ok or should I cancel it. Should come tuesday hopefully.
Target is too get it up running before end of this month otherwise my old man said its going to the crusher!
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9 pin should be ok, you just use the pins you need. all the sockets ive used have tons o holes in, just pop pins in the sockets you need to use. just a case of seeing if the relay will fit in it, if it will happy days
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He said he needed to know whether I wanted a 9 pin so that he can order the correct holder.
and thanks
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Got thr relay and holder now, just got to get them spade bits from pole vault, forgot to order them :rolleyes:
How do I know what wire goes to what connection, on the diagram it looks like 3 and 5 are switched and 1 and 2 just connect inside the relay?
Also what amp spade bits do I need?
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Mine looks like this, should I wire it up like this, as I understand this, apart from the constant power bit. Should I just create a new wire from the battery for this, if so what size wire would I need.
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/faq-emporium/117895-faq-relays-how-they-work-how-wire-up.html
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your megasquirt ecu diagram should show you which wires go to which relay pin, and on the back of the relay it should have the same numbers. pop relay into holder then make a note of which pin fits where, and push your wires into the back accordingly :)
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OK cheers, I thought my relay would have like 30, 87 etc on it, then I wouldnt be stuck, but it has 1 2 3 4 on it. That relay in that link is set up exactly the same as mine.
On the ms diagram it has got battery going to 30 , ign 80 earth trigger 85 then 87 for the injectors and ms ecu, I can just join them two up together cant I? So have thicker wire coming out of the relay then splits into two ways with smaller wire. Im going to get a new wire from the battery to feed the relay, so what size fuse and thickness wire should I use for that ? Oh john, on that pole vaults, which spade bits do I need as there is quite a few but none say like gripped or anything? www.polevolt.co.uk
Thanks, If that is how I wire up the relay then that sounds easy :smiley:
Also would this 3 way plug fit onto my tps plug? Or do I need a vag plug.
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ah ok. 9 times out of 10 the relay pinout will be the same anyway, so the guide showing 30, 87 etc should have em in the same spot on your relay.
yeah can run ecu + injectors off the output pin on ecu relay, this is how CE1 digifant does it. 90spec the injectors are switched to pump relay, but it makes no odds which way you do it.
same rating wire as you use for rest of ms loom should be ok, i have a load of thinwall 25amp wire which i use for most things involving custom relays, just make sure you put 20a fuse on there somewhere :)
you want 'latched' terminals from this page, measure the legs of your relay but pretty sure they'll be 4.8mm on there. just a case of pickign the right size for the wires you're using:
http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/4.8mm_Terminals.html
need a good crimper too, something like this:
http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/info_TT73.html
for the tps it could be the 3 way plug either here:
http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/Packard_Timer_Connectors.html
or here:
http://www.polevolt.co.uk/acatalog/Junior_Power_Timer_Connectors.html
burt look at the plug on your tps very closely. in particular look at the locking tabs, you'll note power-timer has 3 lock tabs, packard has 2.
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You are an actual star :smiley:
I have no more questions funnily enough :laugh:
Thanks again.
Found that crimper for a tenner on the bay too :laugh:
Just looked, my relay is 6mm.
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Accidently bought about 120 of those spade bits :huh: All are too big :cry:
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All bits are here, got my fuse holder too.
What size wire can the constant live from my battery to the ecu relay be, does it have to be massive like the other one, or as its just doing injectors and ecu can it be smaller. Or is there somewhere I can spice into. If so can I just cut that wire and solder mine in so its like a junction or do I need a junction fitting.?
Also where should I put the fuse holder, the spade bits that come with are massive, so thinking I may have bought the wrong kind. Also the ecu and injectors, can I crimp into the same spade bit.
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live feed you can take from the back of the fusebox, there are a group of spare ones. you'll see them as they are next to a pair of massive red spade wires going to the fusebox. it shouldnt need to be a huge gauge wire, the same size as all the other wires to the ms ecu should be enough. fuse holder just put it somewhere near the fusebox so you can get to it. you can get vw fuse holders which will clip above the fusebox too. you can crimp both the injectors and ecu wire to the same spade, just as long as the spade you have is big enough to take them both! twist the wires together and make sure you get a good crimp on it. some like to add a bit of solder to the crimp after to ensure a good contact
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Cheers mate, them spade bits i got where all too big even the other ones i ordered1.0mm- 0.5mm, just going to fold the wire over make it bigger
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Ive lost the piece of paper that tells me what black wire to use. With the 5 short ground wires, do I take the thickest ground wire and use that to take them all to ground, also I know I have to use one wire to take the sensors to ecu ground pin. But what about the other ground wires do they go to ground too ? Will be done once Ive done this!
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"The main grounds from pins #8, 9, 10, 11,& 18 go to one spot on the engine block. Do not ground them at physically separated locations, and do not use a single fat wire for this. Instead run separate wires from the pins all the way to the ground spot."
I thought you use the crimp you get with the ecu to crimp these wires together?
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The best way to deal with th emain grounds for the MS is to crimp each one separatly and then stack them on a bolt.
it is inperitive that they are grounded in the same location othewise eath loops can cause much hasstel.
sensor grounds should be ether grounded to the sensor ground pin on the ecu ( recomended ) or to this same bolt.