GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Sam on 22 September 2010, 10:04
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Right, been thinking for a while now about my next car, i have had my golf for a freaking year now which for me is aaaaages. But don't really want to get rid, so i guess this is more hypothetical. Right any how, how much power can you get out of the 2.0 abv 16v engine with a bit of work. Im thinking about building the engine and thinking about the car later (possibly caddy pickup :grin: )
So, how easy is it to get 200 whp from an abf or is it even possible without turbo,nos and supercharging (so cams, port polishing, larger outlets and inlets blah blah). And what would you use to get to this figure. I know this is a broad question.
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Speak to Ess Three about getting big power from a ABF.
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Speak to Ess Three about getting big power from a ABF.
Ok, is he on this forum or will i have to join the enemy?
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he's lurking in the mk3 section!
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Speak to Ess Three about getting big power from a ABF.
Ok, is he on this forum or will i have to join the enemy?
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=20738 :afro:
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Sweeeeet, Thanks guys, will pm him
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Oh and yes, it is possible to get 200bhp from a 16v engine (in my case a KR) without forced induction or NOS.
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Oh and yes, it is possible to get 200bhp from a 16v engine (in my case a KR) without forced induction or NOS.
is that whp or at fly?
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SOTPHP (Seat of the pants horse power).
nick
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Oh and yes, it is possible to get 200bhp from a 16v engine (in my case a KR) without forced induction or NOS.
I don't think Forza counts? :grin:
Nick
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Oh and yes, it is possible to get 200bhp from a 16v engine (in my case a KR) without forced induction or NOS.
I don't think Forza counts? :grin:
Nick
Ha ha, so whp then. And also, i'm with horney on this one, forza doesn't count
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Mine was 197 @ fly, 175ish at wheels.
Chewed up and spat out VR's.
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Mine was 197 @ fly, 175ish at wheels.
Chewed up and spat out VR's.
got a spec / project thread?
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Mine was 197 @ fly, 175ish at wheels.
Chewed up and spat out VR's.
Yer i know mine looses 39bhp through gearing and such like
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Nope, but will have a look when I get home tonight through all the paper work.
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Talk to DannyP, too.
Haz muchos nolidge, iz badly spelled.
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Will do, i do have to ask you one question Mr DH. How come you bombard every post about K-jet with 'ABF it with proper managment' but now you have little to offer? :rolleyes:
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You want high-output circa 200bhp.
I can show you an ABF delivering +170bhp on OEM management with a good exhaust manifold and a few tweaks, but I can't show you a 100bhp/l output motor on Digifant 3.2.
For that you'll need ITBs and some pokey management, as well as cams and head-work.
I don't have that experience, as I don't have that sort of cash to play with right now and 170bhp in 1000kg is plenty for me to be going on with at the moment, so I'm not going to advise how you get to a plucked-from-the-air target figure.
HTHs.
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Dh is right digi3.2 is an effective out the box solution and it's cheep but 200bhp is a very big expensive ask of it.
squirt + abf works.
goes well on itb's. cams and headwork make it go better again.
map it on speed density, then map it on alpha -N , then ferk about setting up the blended map thingy. runs well when been sensible and silly that way. i shoved a 15mm vaccume manifold across all the runnes for the brake servo for a better vac signal when running Speed density and for the brake servo. i also added an ISV to one end of it so when the engines cold i din't have to keep pokeing the throttel, or set the idel air screw exessivly high so it'd run when cold only to have to then put a huge hole in the ignition map to get a sensible idel when hot.
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Youd recommend highly using an isv then Danny ? I want as little hassle with megasquirt as i can lol!
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You want high-output circa 200bhp.
I can show you an ABF delivering +170bhp on OEM management with a good exhaust manifold and a few tweaks, but I can't show you a 100bhp/l output motor on Digifant 3.2.
I can show you a 190+ BHP ABF on Digi 3.2...but it'll not go over 200.
Oh, and it's on a standard (modified) manifold.downpipes too...and runs a cat/passes the MOT on emissions.
As has been said before, big cams + Digi 3.2 = problems...
I can add a 268 ex cam and break 200 BHP..but it'll not idle, it's useless below 4000 RPM and it's 15lb-ft doen on the 268/std cam set everywhere...for a loss of 5 BHP. I know which is faster out on the road.
For that you'll need ITBs and some pokey management, as well as cams and head-work.
Yup...
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Mine was 197 @ fly, 175ish at wheels.
Chewed up and spat out VR's.
Yer i know mine looses 39bhp through gearing and such like
Mine makes about 140-143 ATW...for 190-197 BHP @ flywheel, on a MAHA dyno.
There is no way you'll make 200WHP on a NA ABF with a budget less than the cost of a Lehmann motor or similar!
I have around 50 BHP losses, for a set of 16v ratios, LSD, lots of negative camber and lots of toe out.
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If the number '200' is an absolute must...then you're looking at £4000-5000 easily to go there.
If you want it to go like a 200BHP ABF engine/box would, go to 170-180BHP which is fairly cheap, fit a light flywheel, and change the FD on the 16v 'box...a 7300RPM revving 180 BHP ABF on a light flywheel and 3.94 or 4.2 FD, with a good ATB/LSD will be a good set up.
I've just removed a O2A 16v 'box c/w Quaife diff and 4.2 FD and a ligh flywheel to go the next step up...but the last set up was very nice...I'm unsure if the 4.2 was amybe a bit much...maybe the 3.94 I had in before was the better 'road' 'box...but it really sings on a 4.2.
Probably too low for a Mk2 on 15" wheels though...
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This is possibly the most interesting thread we have had in the section for a while (to me at least) and it hasnt broke into an argument. Gonna scrap the ABF Megajiz option then, sound like alot of fvcking about with little gain. I think you could turbo a car for 2k with a bit of nouse so will probs stick with turbos and superchargers, playing with them at the tender age of 20 ( :grin: ) should set me up pretty good for the future. Cheers guys! :kiss:
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Balls, forgot to check my paperwork. I did however stumble across a RR print out.
I got the figures arse about face, was 157 @ wheels not 175. (thought that sounded a bit high when I typed it) my bad. :embarassed:
Another consideration is that as you lighten everything, your torque will also drop off a lot more, as you are ridding the car of rotating inertia and mass, so it's a fine line of getting the balance right in order to benefit in both power and torque.
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Yer have just been looking into lightening my flywheel but i figured it would lead to heavy turbo lag when accelerating up hill. I got a little distracted by carbon fibre prop shafts too :evil:
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This is possibly the most interesting thread we have had in the section for a while (to me at least) and it hasnt broke into an argument. Gonna scrap the ABF Megajiz option then, sound like alot of fvcking about with little gain. I think you could turbo a car for 2k with a bit of nouse so will probs stick with turbos and superchargers, playing with them at the tender age of 20 ( :grin: ) should set me up pretty good for the future. Cheers guys! :kiss:
For £2k you can drop a BAM/AMK 1.8T in, that was designed to be turbo'd, add a custom map and a decent FMIC have a 265 BHP engine (breaking the 200 BHP @ wheels) and if mapped well, be perfectle drivable without mental wheelspin.
I'd not even think about turboing an ABF when you can drop in a complete set-up that's plug and play as near as dammit.
But then you'd never build a high revving ABF if you wanted big power numbers.
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Yer have just been looking into lightening my flywheel but i figured it would lead to heavy turbo lag when accelerating up hill. I got a little distracted by carbon fibre prop shafts too :evil:
A lightened flywheel wouldn't add any more lag....if anything it will help the engine get on boost quicker as it'll rev up quicker.
The flywheel still has weight...just less weight.
Midrange/peak torque is not affected...sure it may idle slightly lumpier (mine doesn't) and it may be easier to stall (true) but none of my other numbers changed...it just revs quicker.
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Yer have just been looking into lightening my flywheel but i figured it would lead to heavy turbo lag when accelerating up hill. I got a little distracted by carbon fibre prop shafts too :evil:
A lightened flywheel wouldn't add any more lag....if anything it will help the engine get on boost quicker as it'll rev up quicker.
The flywheel still has weight...just less weight.
Midrange/peak torque is not affected...sure it may idle slightly lumpier (mine doesn't) and it may be easier to stall (true) but none of my other numbers changed...it just revs quicker.
That was just after a quick gander, from what i gather a weighty fly has momentum but takes more effort to get it there and a lightend fly has less but takes less effort, I figured seen as it hasnt been done on my car before there is a reason for it, cos it seems like a fairly obvious/easy thing to do
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That was just after a quick gander, from what i gather a weighty fly has momentum but takes more effort to get it there and a lightend fly has less but takes less effort, I figured seen as it hasnt been done on my car before there is a reason for it, cos it seems like a fairly obvious/easy thing to do
I don't get it either...
You can spend £2000-3000 adding 30 BHP...or you can change the flywheel and get what feels like the same gain, out on the road.
...and a lightened flywheel will cost you approx £100 + fitting.
There is probably less of a gain on an O2O flywheel compared to an O2A flywheel as they are smaller to start with (O2O that is).
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So what fly would you recomend on a MK2 1.8 16v engine with a little turbo strapped to it running 210bhp on the road?
Dont wanna go too light but want to feel a difference
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So what fly would you recomend on a MK2 1.8 16v engine with a little turbo strapped to it running 210bhp on the road?
Dont wanna go too light but want to feel a difference
You swapping to an O2A gearbox?
Or sticking with the O2O and hoping for the best?
I'd lighten either way...not silly light, just the OEM one lightened and re-balanced.
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what weight did you get your flywheel down to?
looking at hotgolf's ad his lightened 02a flywheel is still 0.5kg heavier than a std 020 flywheel :undecided:
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what weight did you get your flywheel down to?
looking at hotgolf's ad his lightened 02a flywheel is still 0.5kg heavier than a std 020 flywheel :undecided:
Yup...hence no issue running a light ABF flywheel.
O2O flywheel doesn't lighten as much...eithewr way I's lighten it...but even more so if going to an O2A gearbox, which I would be if I were looking to run a turbo on a 16v.
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On 02A Danny and I both had our flywheels taken down to 6kg from around 9kg IIRC.
Felt nice.
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My standard 020 diesel 210mm flywheel came in at just under 5kg on my bathroom scales. 02A flywheels are supposedly 9.5kg, but I guess the pressure plate might be a little lighter? Seeing as the 020 one is backwards and all that.
I've been dreaming about supercharged ABF's recently, I would imagine it would work out cheaper less expensive than a turbo.
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.Is it it obvious if youve got a 020 or 02a ? Ive got to get my flywheel out and lighten it but scared ill mess up something ! taking the clutch out etc!
Thats my wish too a supercharged 2.0l 16v, i wouldnt like the small turbo drive on my car, would feel like too torquey mid range
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.Is it it obvious if youve got a 020 or 02a ?
O2O had a rod change mechanism, O2A has cables.
That's the easiest way to check..O2A is physically bigger, and mostly has a hydraulic clutch too.
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Thats gay, got an 020. :angry:
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on the upside it's odds on your 020 has a bolted diff.
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Either that, or you're lucky and should expect the diff crownwheel to make an appearance through the housing some time soon. :grin:
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its a shame you can't have a combo of the 020 and 02a as both have their advantages
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lol Its been bolted it was refurbished in February and i remember him saying about the bolted diff.!
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Mines 020 and it runs a turbo just fine, has done since 1996
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yours has ether had a bolted diff since 1996 then or not had much excersise. bolting the diff on 020 was standard practice when upgradeing engines to have rather more poke
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Forgive my ignorance, but what is involved in 'bolting the diff' on an 020 'box?
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Stripping the box down to the diff and then replacing the rivets VW used to fasten the crownwheel with much stronger bolts.
Simples.
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Ah, cheers. Fairly simple diy job? What bolts do you need?
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Not really a simple DIY job, unless you're comfortable stripping down and rebuilding a whole gearbox yourself.
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diff is first in last out, so it is the whole box that has to come apart
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Ok, cheers for the info