GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk1 => Topic started by: 83GTI-DS on 10 January 2005, 19:10
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Hello all,
I have several questions in this post, sorry for the trouble but I couldn't seem to find more information on this in the forum... here we go:
I live in Israel, and was recently offered the following car: 1992 Mk-2 Karmen (Golf) convertible, GTI. It has the original engine in it, and I was told it produces 115 HPs.
My issues with the car are the following:
1) I couldn't get a picture of the car, and travelling to see it is a long way... I'll do it happily for that car, but my main problem is - as far as I know MK-2 was last produced in 1991, meaning this model might actually be an MK-3... I don't like MK-3 anywhere near as much as the MK-2.
This car was imported from the United States, is it possible that there is an MK-2 that was registered as 1992, or is this car for sure an MK-3? The person who's selling it seems to know a lot about Golfs, and he assured me it was an MK-2 (or at least the equivalent of such in a "Karmen" version).
2) What exactly does Karmen mean? What's different about this car, than a regular cabrio GTI MK-2 made around that time? Any link to a resource, or a simple explanation on this would be very appreciated.
3) I was told by another person who's in the know that many times people refer to Cabrios with a 1.8 liter engine as "GTI", and that there is no Cabrio GTI. What's the deal on this one - were there any Mk-2 Cabrio GTIs made during that time?
4) The car has just been re-sprayed with its original paint, and a new top will be installed on it within a few days. It also has new low-cut 195/50/15 tyres, with new 15" rims. Since there is barely any demand for thi car in Israel, the owner wants a siginficantly lower amount of money for the car than the actual worth in Israel for similar models.
What should I be looking for when examining the car, except for the obvious (accidents, engine condition, and such) - are there any pointers you could give me based on the information above?
Thank you very much for your time in advance, it is most appreciated!
Adi.
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i dident think they made a mk 2 convertable but the age issue i have a rare k reg mk 2 produced in 1992
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if its an import then it may have been registered late or something to account for the k reg. if the guy seems to know about golfs then he surely would know if its a 2 or a 3.
karmen is the factory right? like golf people go on about wolsburg i believe karman is another factory that are regarded as better than wolfsburg. corrado's came out of the karman factory and i've heard that they were all made by meticulous nerds!! which has to be a good thing!
don't know much about cabrios, so couldn't help you out on common faults engines etc, but as with any car check for panel fit, blue smoke etc to tell the condition of the car.
much more than that i cant help you i'm afraid
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hi, i would definately say its a mark 1 as i know of a couple of 1992 cabriolets running about, karmen is a company in germany who volkswagen commissioned to, improve/design/update various models throughout the history of volkswagen, the cabriolet being one of them, the gti comes from most of the later cabriolets having the same engine as a golf gti 8v, so it is a gti in theory. hope this helps :wink:.
by the way its not a mark 2 but a mark 1 as all cabriolets up to 91/92 were based on the mk1 golf :wink:
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Adi,
Is it the same shape as the one in my signature as they have only ever made cabs on mk1 (like mine) or mk3. Never a mk2. It is possible that it is a mk1 and registered in 1992, you can even get some mk1 cabs registered in 1993 (as an L reg in the UK) but these are very very rare. gti89 has answered your question about Karmen. Mine is cabriolet and is a GTi, the mk1s that weren't GTi's were called Clippers, some earlier cabs were called GLi but they were still seen as GTi' really.
As for what to look for, the usual stuff but check that the roof is good and does not leak, best thing to do is take it for a jet wash and see if there is any water that gets in, check the carpets to see if they are damp (but does it actually rain in Israel :undecided:), check for blue smoke out the back, in fact, read this website, tells you all you want to know http://www.matey-matey.com/golf_buying_guide.shtml
If you need anymore info then let me know and I'll see what I can find out for you. Good luck. :smiley:
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Thanks a lot for the great answers :)
Gibby - I was wondering if you have any feedback regarding the driving experience on your cabrio GTI (how many HPs does the engine produce btw? I was told that this Cabrio GTI's engine is an 8V and produces 115 HPs - how much does yours produce), as opposed to a normal MK1 GTI?
The driving experience on a 1983 Golf GTI was very much to my liking. Should I expect more or less the same from this car?
What exactly are the differences between a normal GTI, and a Cabrio GTI - the engine is obviously the same, is the entire car (except for the top) similar? Also, how much does a cabrio GTI weigh compared to a normal GTI (an MK1 should weigh around 840 KG if I remember correctly)?
Thank you very much again for your time!
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by the way its not a mark 2 but a mark 1 as all cabriolets up to 91/92 were based on the mk1 golf :wink:
yeah but i knew what i meant!!! and what he meant so i thought i'd go with it! :grin:
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Karmann is a german coachbuilders and have worked with various manufacturers (The escort convertible and renault 19 convertible are both examples that spring to mind) but karmann used to concentrate most of their output building VW products.
VW had links with VW going back to the days of the original beetle convertible and used them well for the Karmann ghia so VW got got karmann to build the scirocco as it was a a lower volume car and they didnt want to take the risk of reorganising the production line at wolfsburg to produce it. Dont forget it was built before the original golf and they were unsure as to the reaction of a new VW on an otherwise air cooled public.
They continued building the Golf convertible and the corrado as these are quite low volume cars and Karmann pratically hand assembled the finished cars.
TO check whether it is a karmann car you check the chassis number. After the model year letter is another letter. W refers to a car made in wolfsburg. K refers to a car from Karmann.
As said previously its gonna be a MK1 convertible as they used the shape up until the MK3.
If its a normal standard MK1 then it should produce 112BHP.
Check the engine code. its probably a DX and this is the 1781cc 112BHP one as fitted to the english spec cars and most probably basic fodder for the rest of the markets the car was aimed at.
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Gibby - I was wondering if you have any feedback regarding the driving experience on your cabrio GTI (how many HPs does the engine produce btw? I was told that this Cabrio GTI's engine is an 8V and produces 115 HPs - how much does yours produce), as opposed to a normal MK1 GTI?
Adi, I love driving mine, brings a smile to my face every time I get in it, it's not the nicest car to drive, the brakes aren't great and the clutch is very stiff compared to other makes of cars that I've driven, I've never driven a mk1 hard top so can't say how much difference there is between the two but I will say that if this car checks out ok then buy it, I promise you that you will not be disapponted. :smiley: As ridgers says, the mk1 gti is supposed to push out about 112bhp, it's not going to be as fast as a mk1 hardtop as it will be slightly more heavier. :smiley:
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Thanks for the informative post ridgers.
Gibby - I hope it'll check out ok, I still have to go through a full monh before I could buy it (gotta get next month's salary... :shocked:), I hope nobody buys it until then... The last one I was about to buy (hard top) was snatched just a day after I took it for a test drive :sad:.
Do you have any stats on that car as far as its weight, and perhaps its 0-60 rating (I'll be fine with the stock specs on the 0-60 - as I could compare them in general to the stock specs of the hard top GTI)? That would be very useful. Other than the extra weight (whatever amount that is), there shouldn't be anything different in the car, right? Same Anti-roll bars, same chassis overall, same fuel injection system etc.?
Thanks again - if we need to move this to the MK-1 forum now that I know this isn't an MK-2, that's fine - let me know and I'll continue it there :)
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Adi, I've moved this to the mk1 section now. I've got a good GTi book at home that gives various weights, dimensions etc, tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can find out for you. In the meantime I'll look for the stock 0 - 60 times, but the full injection system is the same, as far as I know the hardtops were the k-jet system and mine is a '91 and is also a k-jet. :smiley:
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83GTI-DS,mines a mk1 1781cc 8v k-jet k-plate karmann,lovely to drive,bar wot Gib pointed out to u,oh n mines an import :smiley:
Dinx :kiss:
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Thanks again for the details.
What I'm truly interested in knowing is the following (A normal MK-1 GTI - let's say of the latest year - compared to a 1992 Cabrio):
1) I like Cabrios - they are beautiful... But what's the trade off as far as 0-60 and torque? For example, I know that the average MK-1 should weigh (I think) around 840 Kilograms - How much does an MK-1 Cabrio 1992 weigh? I read a post which explained why a Cabrio weighs more than its hardtop twin, but I was wondering if I could get the exact weight increase from an MK-1 Hardtop to an MK-1 Cabrio (1992), and also how does this affect its torque and its 0-60 times (in numbers, if possible)?
2) Is there also a tradeoff as far as driving quality - e.g. does a hardtop MK-1 GTI have extra anti-roll bars that the Cabrio doesn't?
3) What else is different between the two? Were there any components in the Cabrio that were "borrowed" from later version MK-2's - or is everything else completely similar to an MK-1?
By the way, I found the following paragraph from an article about VW GTIs, but since it speaks of the bodyshell weight, I really don't have any comparison to the old MK-1 GTI's bodyshell weight, which makes it impossible to find out how much of an increase there is in weight, but perhaps this will help.
Also, does this paragraph mean my 1992 Cabrio should have a Turbocharger? From what I understand - it shouldn't have one, as it's not a Gli - but I want to make sure. Here's the paragraph:
MKl Cabriolet '79-93
History/Spec
Karmann took the MKl bodyshell, strengthened it to increase its weight to 136 kg, and created the best convertible money could buy in 1979. Modifications were pretty much as with the hatchback Golf. The GLi had the 1588cc GTI engine and suspension, while the GLS had uprated trim -- but only a 70 bhp, 1457cc engine. In 1982, the 1.8 GTI engine was installed into the GLi, and the GLS got a 1595cc unit. For 1981, the dash was upgraded. Sports seats and a lockable glovebox became part of the specification by 1983. The GTI designation was finally adopted in 1985. In 1988, VW modernised the bodywork with rounded bumpers, integrated front spoiler, rear apron and more prominent wheelarches. Also, a 1.8 carburettor-fed Clipper replaced the old 1.6 GL. For 1990, a power hood was added to the spec. There have been plenty of special editions, from the 'All White' and 'All Black' in 1986. Sportline and Rivage, 1991-92, with BBS and Recaros, are the best.
You can read the full article here: http://www.geocities.com/veedub16v_2000/history/
Thanks again for all the help - please feel free to send any relevant links / information about this subject my way :)
Have a good one!
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Another important question - I found another car that might be of interest to me, the owner didn't specify it was a GTI but then again the knowledge of such things here in Israel isn't too good.
The car is an imported Cabrio, with a 1.8 liter engine - Assuming the engine wasn't replaced, does this mean the engine is an 8V GTI engine, or could it be a non-GTI engine, with lesser performance & power output?
Thanks again for all your help!
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Not all cabrios were GTI's, they made a non GTI called a clipper which just had a 1.8 carb engine, some of the earlier cabs were not GTI's either so there's a chance that it might not be a GTI. I'll try and get you some of the answers to the above questions later on today. :smiley:
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Adi, I've looked in my book and there is a load of information in there, I've tried to answer a few of your questions and I dont know how hard it is to get hold of this in Israel, but this is the book I have http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852239964/qid=1105634512/sr=1-16/ref=sr_1_0_16/202-3871085-4231830 It is a really good book and has loads of info on other VW's too, there's even a picture of a mk2 cabrio and even a corrado cabrio :shocked:
Some of the info you wanted - The cab was based on the floor pan of the mk1 golf but In order to do the mk1 cab Karmann gave the cab a roll bar and at the front an additional cross-beam behind the dashboard, also the suspension turrets were reinforced. The sills were strenghtened between the wheel arches and there was a box section cross-beam mounted behind the rear seats and a boxed boot structure.
0 - 60 times
mk1 GTi 1800 - 8.2 secs
mk1 GTi cab - 9.8 secs
Weight (Unladen)
mk1 GTi 1800 - 840kg
mk1 GTi cab - 940kg
Maximum torque
mk1 GTi 1800 - 109lb/ft @ 3500rpm
mk1 GTi cab - 109lb/ft @ 3500rpm
Output - Both push out 112bhp at 5800rpm
Top speed
mk1 GTi 1800 - 114mph (183kph)
mk1 GTi cab - 111mph (179kph)
The engines as a whole are exactly the same. Transmission is almost the same except the final drive and the suspension is exactly the same setup, so was the steering and by the way, no standard mk1s had turbo chargers.
The dimensions of the mk1 and the mk1 cab (until 1983) were exactly the same except the weight as shown above but the cabs from 83 - 93 were slightly longer, 150.8in as opposed to 150.2in.
This info has been taken from the book that I put a link to at the top of this thread, so if there are any disagreements by anyone then take it up with the writer :grin: You all didn't think that I knew all this information off the top of my head did you :grin: :grin:
I've think I've given as much info as you need but if you need anymore then ask and I'll see what my good book says. :smiley:
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W :shocked: W
Thanks for all the info - I think I have everything I need now ;-)
Have a good one Gibby, and thanks again for all your help!
I just might get that book off of Amazon - looks like a good item to have available :)
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Not a problem, glad to help, hope the car works out for you and you get it. Keep us informed anyway. :smiley: :smiley:
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going by the chassis refernce on my golf. the golf cabrios were built in osnabruck not wolfsberg.
as for the quality of karmanns work i would say this was questionable, they certanly seem to not of always been good at their job, as bmw got karmann to build their e24 6 series csi, until they decided they were not building them to a good enough standard to have a bmw badge on them. so they took the work on themselves, early e24's were notorious for rusting and other problems as i am finding out with mine? :cry: :cry:
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Wow, good skills Gibby, I'm impressed with your collection of all that data :cool: :wink:
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Why thank you Bronze ! I'd like to say I was a fountain of useless knowledge on Golfs but I got it all out of a book ! :laugh: It's a good book though, link below if interested, I got it at a show last year and it goes up to mk3, even has pics of veedubs that never made it to production like a convertible raddo and a convertible mk2. :shocked:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1852239964/qid=1105634512/sr=1-16/ref=sr_1_0_16/202-3871085-4231830
The funny thing was that the guy who asked the question was from Israel (I think, golfgti.co.uk global or what!) and the next day he was asking questions about the mk2 he was thinking of buying, so I either bored him to death or he decided that the mk1 wasn't for him ! :laugh: :laugh:
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I have got a VW golf book, but it's not that one!
Looking at those stats mines not that far off a GTI spec. Last RR day it ran 110 bhp at the fly. The 0-60 at inters was 9.95 and I've hit 120 mph (obviously that could be wrong as it was just off my speedo).
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[Edit: I'm going to make a new thread out of this thing - it's a different subject]
Gibby,
By far you didn't bother me to death - on the contrary! You've been of great help. That car was just out of my budget unfortunately, and I had to focus on a different one that was much closer to my financial abilities.
Golf GTI is not a common car around here. I've just heard from one of the club manager of the VAG club in Israel that some people spend a full year or more before finding a Golf GTI for a major project, and they're willing to shed some serious dollars (or NIS - New Israeli Shekels? :grin: ). I must have been lucky, and also spent countless hours scouring ads to find these few cars I have.
This is also why I ask questions about an MK-1 Cab, and then go on to the MK-2 forums to ask about a totally different car - so far I was able to locate 5 cars, of which only 3 were worth taking a look at. That's in about a month or more of scouring the net as well as the local papers, and non-local papers (and also some motor magazines around here).
Of those three, one was unfortunately too expensive for me (the 1992 Karmann Cab I was talking about), since the owner wanted $8K USD for it. In Israel that's lower than the acceptable price for this car, but still too high for me.
I did locate two other cars that are of interest. One is an MK-2 GTI, which I have yet to see since it's very far in the north and I'll have to plan that sometime, possibly next week. The other, I have a question about...
It's an 86 imported GTI Cabrio, red paint, black top, 2 doors, 3rd owner, 180,000 KMs (around 115,000 miles), original rims, rear windshield defroster (the thingy that makes the humidity go away - sorry, but no idea how that's called exactly? :laugh: ), and this next item is my main question:
This car was fitted with a Passat 1.8 GTI? 20V engine, from around 91-92 or something along these lines. The engine is relatively new as far as its mileage, according to the owner. Can anyone provide me with specs regarding this engine, or the general idea of placing such an engine in this car? It doesn't sound too natural, but then again they're both VWs, so who knows... What are your thoughts?
Also - Excuse me for my ignorance, but how does a 5V per Cylinder engine actually work? What's the extra valve for - a 3rd exhaust valve, or what?
Thank you VERY much for all your help again!? :wink:? :smiley:? :smiley: :smiley:
Adi.
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Hi All.
Reading through a the threads and i asume that my golf must be a 1989 Karmen Convertible Gti. I didnt realise that it was only called a karmen clipper if the engine wasnt a gti.
I always thought mine was a called a karmen clipper gti but i have been wrong all this time.
Cheers All.
Andy.
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I guess they are either Golf GTi convertibles or a Golf Clipper convertible, the karmen bit doesn't really come into it, they were just the German coach builders that did the design. The clippers usually say "clipper" down the back quarter panel. Karmen are the same as say, pinifarina (or whatever they are called) who did the designs for the astra coupe and 406 coupe, apologies for swearing there ! :laugh:
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Thanks for that.
The only marking it has are the Karmen badges near the front wheel arches. Apart from that the satndard vw and gti badges.
Cheers
Andy
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Aye, same as mine, that's the only reference to karmenn on mine too. :smiley:
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better examples of pininfarina would be ferrari :smiley: