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Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 20:54

Title: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 20:54
As title. As you know on the 30th of April I shall be converting my car to 16v power. 16v engine will obviously be out of the donor car whilst it is transplanted.

This engine needs to be VERY reliable for the summer (round trip to the far end of Spain), so oil leaks, water leaks and any other leaks need to be fixed! What are the common places for the 16v to leak? Camshaft cover one I suspect?

110VG0170       VALVE COVER GASKET SET       G3 2.0 16V ABF Engine Ch.1H-R-600001>       17.50

What about water leaks? cylinder head side is a common one on the 8v's, is it the same on the 16v's?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 20:55
I would put it into a MK2 :) More specifically, my MK2.

More sensibly, I would be inclined to check over the usual cheap bits - valve steam seals and guides, rings etc.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 20:58
I would put it into a MK2 :) More specifically, my MK2.

More sensibly, I would be inclined to check over the usual cheap bits - valve steam seals and guides, rings etc.

Yeah it is wise to do so. Headgasket obviously being another main gasket. Are stem seals and guides cheap? Piston rings require engine to be split, so will skip on that.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 21:07
Stem seals you can do in-situ - the guides need the head off, and then its always worth a valve re-grind - a good machining shop can do all of them for you if the head is off.

But, do you know the history of the engine. If was a good runner already, I'd be inclined not to really mess with it. But if you don't know the history, then for the sake of the price of parts,

new oil pump, belts/tensioners/chain (if necc. - I don't know the ABF).

I'd leave the HG personally, unless it has shown signs of failing - the bolts and gasket set alone will set you back about £100 IIRC.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: justalex81 on 11 April 2010, 21:13
cam it and lighten the flywheel. new clutch and replace all gaskets and sensors.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: VR6-Joe on 11 April 2010, 21:18
Sell it

Replace it with VR6
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 21:19
cam it and lighten the flywheel. new clutch and replace all gaskets and sensors.
and turbo it while I'm at it...

I won't have access to any machining shops or anything, all work will be done by me, DH and danny_p over the course of a weekend.
Clutch and cambelt + tensioner were done 19,000 miles ago, so they are alright for now. Not got any service history for the car or anything, so no idea of the condition inside.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Wayne on 11 April 2010, 21:20
I would still replace the cambelt whilst you have got the engine out.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 21:23
For now I'll leave it on, no need to be spending money I'm struggling to find. Just trying to source the most common leaks so I can travel in the summer with no problems.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 21:27
I would still replace the cambelt whilst you have got the engine out.

+1 - if you have no history, I'd be replacing everything in sight. Is the engine in a car right now - ie. can you start it and run it? If you can, I would do some cold/hot compression tests, then cold/hot wet compression tests, a combustion leak test - then you've nailed off most symptoms of a failing/failed HG.

To add to your list, a new water pump and thermostat.

If I'm honest, I'm sure DH/danny_p know more than I do about engine maintenance ;)
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: kells on 11 April 2010, 21:28
should listen to wayne he knows what he is on about and if your gonna do a job you may aswell do it right
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 21:31
Need to do a compression test on it.
Engine is on the car at the moment, runs fine with no noises apart from the idle which is due to bad TB wiring.

should listen to wayne he knows what he is on about and if your gonna do a job you may aswell do it right

I too know what I'm on about. To be fair, all I wanted to know are the 16v weak spots, not what to change. Just trying to make make the 16v engine as reliable as I can in terms of leaks.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: kells on 11 April 2010, 21:35
the word arsey springs to mind

the title of the thread is what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 21:49
I would still replace the cambelt whilst you have got the engine out.

So would I...it's only about £20.
Probably new plugs too.

Other than that, nothing...fit it, fresh coolant, oil flush, dump the oil and re-fill with fresh and a new filter.
Then see what's what.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 21:50
Sell it

Replace it with VR6

Is he going sailing?
If not, why the need for an anchor?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 21:58
I would still replace the cambelt whilst you have got the engine out.

So would I...it's only about £20.
Probably new plugs too.

Other than that, nothing...fit it, fresh coolant, oil flush, dump the oil and re-fill with fresh and a new filter.
Then see what's what.

Ok mate, that was the original plan I was going for (albeit the cambelt, but if everyone insists then I will do so).

I need to replace the cam cover gasket as the current one has a small leak I think, will see whats what when the engine is out.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 22:04

Ok mate, that was the original plan I was going for (albeit the cambelt, but if everyone insists then I will do so).

I need to replace the cam cover gasket as the current one has a small leak I think, will see whats what when the engine is out.

It's likely the cam cover gasket was fitted dry, with no sealant in the corners, or on the 'half moons' as suggested by VW.
Seal where suggested, and it should be top notch.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 22:08
ah right, probably why then.

Another question, I need to change the rear axle bushes. GSF sell these:
530VG0050       RE AXLE MOUNT BUSH       TOLEDO 2.0 16V 94>         8.50

Would I need to buy two, or does that description only contain 1 bush?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Leon27 on 11 April 2010, 22:12
Sell it

Replace it with VR6

Is he going sailing?
If not, why the need for an anchor?

hehehe

You'll need two bushes. I'm noticing my metal water pipe is looking a bit rusty you may want to check thats ok.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 22:14
nice one dude.

Which metal pipe?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Leon27 on 11 April 2010, 22:26

It looks like it can be done with the engine in but anyway, it runs from the front of the engine towards the gearbox but then goes round the side under the dizzy to towards the back of the head. I've heard of them rusting and a weak spot may give way on such a long journey.

Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 22:32
ah right that pipe, looks ok on the 16v.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 22:47
TBH I'd do the belt too, but can someone please explain, are the 16V's chain or belts? I've read about both.

I'd do the rocker gasket and possibly the pump but obviously it all depends on budget... If you're on a tight budget is it worth waiting to see if things like the water pump go wrong or to do it now for safety of mind? If so is it worth taking it out and putting on a new gasket if it all looks groovy? They are a couple of quid from TPS.

Because you could go on and on, head gaskets, manifold gaskets, water pumps tensioners etc. but is it worth it/can you afford it?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 22:50
TBH I'd do the belt too, but can someone please explain, are the 16V's chain or belts? I've read about both.

Belt drive from crank to exhaust cam...chain between the two cams, under the cam cover.

Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 22:52
ah right, probably why then.

Another question, I need to change the rear axle bushes. GSF sell these:
530VG0050       RE AXLE MOUNT BUSH       TOLEDO 2.0 16V 94>         8.50

Would I need to buy two, or does that description only contain 1 bush?

Getting the old bushes out is a right royal pain in the ass.
Getting new rubber bushes in is equally as bad without the VAG tool...
Do yourself a favour and fit some Powerflex rear beam bushes...better handling and a piece of cake to fit!
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 22:54
TBH I'd do the belt too, but can someone please explain, are the 16V's chain or belts? I've read about both.

Belt drive from crank to exhaust cam...chain between the two cams, under the cam cover.



Cheers fella!
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 22:56
ah right, probably why then.

Another question, I need to change the rear axle bushes. GSF sell these:
530VG0050       RE AXLE MOUNT BUSH       TOLEDO 2.0 16V 94>         8.50

Would I need to buy two, or does that description only contain 1 bush?

Getting the old bushes out is a right royal pain in the ass.
Getting new rubber bushes in is equally as bad without the VAG tool...
Do yourself a favour and fit some Powerflex rear beam bushes...better handling and a piece of cake to fit!

I know, when DH fitted the new wishbone bushes (floflex) they were so easy, literally slip on.
I'm on a seriously tight budget so can't afford powerflex bushes, just standard ones! I'm sure DH will have a decent press at his workshop, he usually changes bushes pretty often on his syncro.

matty - real tight budget as I said, I only worry of major engine components as I'll only get to do them while in the company of danny and DH, but stuff like waterpump, cam cover gasket and other superficial stuff I can do at home no worries, I've got limited tools you see.


Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 22:58
So it may well be worth leaving them or just checking them over then rather then replacing...
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ess_Three on 11 April 2010, 23:07

I know, when DH fitted the new wishbone bushes (floflex) they were so easy, literally slip on.
I'm on a seriously tight budget so can't afford powerflex bushes, just standard ones! I'm sure DH will have a decent press at his workshop, he usually changes bushes pretty often on his syncro.

Rear beam bushes = nightmare if rubber, and require a special tool ideally.
Easy in poly.

They also make a HUGE difference in feel...so I'd still suggest fitting poly, if you really need to change them.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 23:10
they really need changing matty, I've inspected them!

Powerflex ones are £30 each, is there anything cheaper?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 23:14
Sorry I was taling about water pumps etc. :grin:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:16
Try Superflex or Bugpack - they're usually a spot cheaper.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 23:21
Try Superflex or Bugpack - they're usually a spot cheaper.
nothing, if anything superflex is a tad more expensive than powerflex.

I'll settle for standard rubber bushes by the looks of it.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: tg1 on 11 April 2010, 23:22
you could always fill the bushes with windscreen sealant, depends on how pikey you are.  :lipsrsealed:

you thought about rocker cover, inlet to block gaskets?

new sump gasket, plug?

t/b gasket

Engine flush

check the bearings on the car
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:32
Try Superflex or Bugpack - they're usually a spot cheaper.
nothing, if anything superflex is a tad more expensive than powerflex.

I'll settle for standard rubber bushes by the looks of it.

How about Prothane?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Paul86S2 on 11 April 2010, 23:36
Do the cambelt whilst the engine is out its a lot easier and well worth the insurance.

Cam cover gasket is just as easy to do with the engine in the car.

The plastic water flanges on the front and side of the head are prone to failure but again are easy enough to change with the engine in.

Paul
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:40
The plastic water flanges on the front and side of the head are prone to failure but again are easy enough to change with the engine in.

If you change these - USE GENUINE, Gsf/ECP are sh!tters and tend to warp within 12 months.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 23:43
The plastic water flanges on the front and side of the head are prone to failure but again are easy enough to change with the engine in.

If you change these - USE GENUINE, Gsf/ECP are sh!tters and tend to warp within 12 months.
I WILL use genuine if I change them. From previous experience they tend to warp after a month or two. I've changed about 3 or 4 now.

I'll try prothane  :smiley:

Cam cover gasket and other superficial gaskets are pretty easy with engine in the car, so they ain't too important.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:45
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 23:47
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?

Let's all not start a debate on whether it's worth it or not AGAIN but he's taking a 16V ABF from one car and putting it in place of his 8V.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Wayne on 11 April 2010, 23:47
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?

He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 23:50
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?

He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:

No Wayne, don't. Bad boy. :grin:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Wayne on 11 April 2010, 23:51
I have said all that I am going to on the subject  :lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:53
He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:

Oh :undecided:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 11 April 2010, 23:55
He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:

Oh :undecided:

sh!t.

Chuff, popcorn, salty butter please!
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Wayne on 11 April 2010, 23:57
He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:

Oh :undecided:

He has his reasons.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 11 April 2010, 23:57
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?
on that basis I might as well rebuild the entire engine  :tongue:

I'm on a seriously, and I mean seriously tight budget, so essential stuff only will be done!
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:58
He is fitting the ABF in a 8v.  :rolleyes:

Oh :undecided:

sh!t.

Chuff, popcorn, salty butter please!

No, I mean - wouldn't it make more sense to put it into a 1.6 driver or a 1.3? Then there would be no messing with looms, brakes etc. it should just drop right in?








Lolz :laugh: I'm only messin, you must have your reasons :)
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 11 April 2010, 23:59
Rear engine mount might be worth a quick inspection too - much easier with the engine out of the car.

What is the situation exactly - you're putting an ABF into your shell - or just rebuilding an ABF and putting it back into its original shell?
on that basis I might as well rebuild the entire engine  :tongue:

I'm on a seriously, and I mean seriously tight budget, so essential stuff only will be done!

Yeah - your post title was too open ended - you should have capped us.

what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out - with only £300
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 12 April 2010, 00:02
with only £300? You wish  :grin:

Narrow that to...about £60.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 12 April 2010, 00:03
and from that £60 I have to buy oil, PAS fluid, Brake fluid, oil filter + flush and the rear beam bushes.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 12 April 2010, 00:05
£60 will barely cover the swear word jar during the swap, give up now :laugh:
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Matty-MK3 on 12 April 2010, 00:07
Service, rob DH for other parts. PAS fluid is auto box fluid. ;) Cheap engine flush.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 12 April 2010, 00:13
Service, rob DH for other parts. PAS fluid is auto box fluid. ;) Cheap engine flush.
Dizzie cap, rotor and leads are 2 months old, and spark plugs I've not yet checked (don't have a spark plug tool thin enough to get though the holes).
PAS fluid I'll try and save as much as I can from draining it, hopefully from both cars I'll be able to get enough for 1 system.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: danny_p on 12 April 2010, 00:27
cranck position sensor ( unless  it looks optimal )
cam belt
rocker gasket
plugs
oil
filters.

check

rear cranck oil seal
frount cranck oil seal
cam oil seal
dizzy oil seal
clutch
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 12 April 2010, 00:32
cranck position sensor ( unless  it looks optimal )
cam belt
rocker gasket
plugs
oil
filters.

check

rear cranck oil seal
frount cranck oil seal
cam oil seal
dizzy oil seal
clutch

Where is the CPS on the 16v's? I'll check it out.

Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: monzablue16v on 12 April 2010, 02:19
After reading the thread I would do sh!t loads more than you are going to, HTH :P
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Khare on 12 April 2010, 02:23
After reading the thread I would do sh!t loads more than you are going to, HTH :P
I wish I could rebuild it! But As I said, I've got about £60 to spend on the essential stuff, so I can't go around blowing money on other stuff.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Wayne on 12 April 2010, 09:40
With respect trying to a job of this scale on a budget of peanuts could / may end in tears.

I would not be keen on reusing pas fluid etc.
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: kells on 12 April 2010, 10:07
i would wait till you can afford to do things properly, dont see the point in rushing things, do it once do it right...
collect all the parts you need then bob is your auntys unkle

guessing this will fall on deaf ground tho
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Ben Lessani on 12 April 2010, 10:47
Surely stripping down/selling the 16v shell will give you some money back?
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: MotorPsycho on 12 April 2010, 10:50
i would wait till you can afford to do things properly, dont see the point in rushing things, do it once do it right...
collect all the parts you need then bob is your auntys unkle

guessing this will fall on deaf ground tho

agreed, do it nice or do it twice........
get bits as and when you can, then when you've got everything do it all properly
Title: Re: what would YOU do to a 16v engine whilst it's out
Post by: Paul86S2 on 12 April 2010, 11:32
Sometimes you've just got to get on and do things. Overthinking some jobs can cost a fortune and still make the end result no better, but othertimes you will end up kicking yourself for not doing or checking something during the install.

If you were keeping the engine in the car its in now you wouldn't be contemplating changing the water pump head gasket etc etc.

But whilst the engine is out it will be worth splitting the gearbox off and checking the clutch and crank seal. Most of the stuff isn't hard with the engine in the car.

Good luck with the swap.

Paul