GolfGTIforum.co.uk

Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: benmk1 on 13 November 2004, 17:04

Title: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: benmk1 on 13 November 2004, 17:04
Howdy, i just bought me a rather nice golf 16v E plate  '87, 135k on tha clock, red, 3 door good interior and bodywork, for (what i think) a bargain price of ?425.
Now the car has no t&T however as far as i can see needs a cv boot, and the handbrake sorting.
dunno whats wrong with the handbrake discs an pads look good, an both sides aren't siezed and lock when handbrake is up........ ??? any ideas?
Also the engine is sounding a bit tappety, no smoke and pulls like jordan......are these hydrolic self adjusting tappets? anyone had them replaced and at what cost?
Anything else i should look out for?
blimey I've gone on a bit!
cheers
Ben
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 14 November 2004, 21:11
replacing them isnt a big issue.

alot of people here use Eurocar parts at around ?6 for each tappet. personally, i used new VW parts at about ?16. i decided it was best for the engine to use original kit, espeically for this job.

the other thing to do is check the tension in the cam chain. it should be tight wil virtually no play. its worth replacing when you do the tappets.

the noise it makes is the sound of a very fast chain moving. i warn you - if you listen for that type of noise - and you here it - you will never hear anything else afterwards and it will wind you up until you change it.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 16 November 2004, 10:03
dont get the original tappets from vw get the updated ones off of newer cars cos they are loads lighter and a lot quieter on start up
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Judderi on 16 November 2004, 10:44
How do you know if its tappets at fault? Mine has started to make a ticking noise that increases and decreses with the engine revs. Its goes once the engine is warmed up. Is this tappets?
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tobz. on 16 November 2004, 10:57
Hydraulic tappets become clogged up over time especially if the the oil isn't changed regularly enough. They usually start tapping when cold as the oil takes longer to fill them up, once the engine is warm and the oils thins they fill up and the tapping goes away. Once they become really bad the tapping will be present regardless of engine temperature.
Wynns make a hydraulic tappet cleaner, you put it in your engine for a couple of hundred miles then change your oil.
I had a passat once with really noisy tappets I used the wynns stuff and was really impressed it shut them up completely, I'd recommend it anyday.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 16 November 2004, 10:58
yes in all probability, try an oil change see if it quitens down if not the change them or live with it
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 16 November 2004, 11:23
Quote from: Veedubgti8v on 16 November 2004, 10:03
dont get the original tappets from vw get the updated ones off of newer cars cos they are loads lighter and a lot quieter on start up

mk3 ones wasnt it?
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 16 November 2004, 11:23
Quote from: Veedubgti8v on 16 November 2004, 10:03
dont get the original tappets from vw get the updated ones off of newer cars cos they are loads lighter and a lot quieter on start up

the weight of the tappets make no difference. if the engine has adequate oil pressure they'll be silent from the start. if the engine doesn't ahve the correct oil pressure then they will click for a few moments until the engine comes up to pressure.

buy the real things. no point in cutting a corner when you dont have to.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 16 November 2004, 11:29
changing oil wont really make much difference.

if you think it is old oil and build ups, use a proper engine flush.

i think you drain all the oil, fill it with engine flush, run the engine for 15 minutes, drain the flushing oil, and then refill with new oil and a new oil filter. (very important you change the oil filter).

it may help it may not. from what I've been told engine flush only really works on engines that are a little bit compact in places. The VW engine cannot be described as compact, so regardless of the muck flying around - you should get decent oiling everywhere.

an example of a compact engine is the Honda Legend 2.7V6 which is notorious for clicking tappets.

having said that, reducing the amount of rubbish flying round the engine is a good thing, even if you don't see the results.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 16 November 2004, 11:39
the reduced weight is for performance reasons tinman ;)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 16 November 2004, 13:13
Quote from: veedubgti16v on 16 November 2004, 11:39
the reduced weight is for performance reasons tinman ;)

i ran this past some people who know several few weeks ago when someone first mentioned it.

its a myth.

a quick check on a vw mag shows that the tappet has the same part number all the way through to 95 anyway.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 16 November 2004, 18:07
myth to you mate ;)

we got told this from a vw tuning company called the phirm and im sure they arent stupid. i dunno which tappets they meant, im sure they said mk3 ones ???
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 16 November 2004, 19:29
hmm compare and discuss:

"yes mate, if we change your tappets for these super duper Mk3 tappets your car is gonna go faster, heres how much it will cost...."

"my grandma - what big teeth you have"

think about it - tappets have very little to do with performance. they are simply a bit of metal that gets smashed on the head repeatedly.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 16 November 2004, 23:05
but if they are lighter does that also not mean they will change direction quicker therefore helping the car to rev a tiny bit quicker? it all helps ;)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 17 November 2004, 10:12
eerrmm. no.

if they changed direction quicker then in theory they will open the valve earlier. if the valve opens earlier then the engine will start mis-timing and you lose power.

the cycle of the tappet is very simple - down and then up - you don't want this to happen any faster or slower otherwise your valves will open and close at the wrong time.

but that won't happen anyway.

the next issue is that tappets do not have any performance qualities what so ever. They are merely a device to keep a pressure on the valve and to open and close it at a predetermined time.

from my quick look at part numbers - all VWs up to 95 seem to use the same tappet. there is no "performance" tappet. A tappet is a tappet is a tappet.

in theory you can change a single tappet. if that tappet performed any differently than the rest of the tappets then you would have serious problems on your hands. you would certainly get some form of valve overlap.

however, it transpires that all tappets are the same, they open the valve, they close the valve.

what is interesting is that some company has told you that they make a difference - when the part is the same!

i personally would still use the original VW part.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 17 November 2004, 10:18
whatever the tappets will always be in sync if you use the same tappets ;) (dont know why you would thing id just change one or two ???)

mate if you dont believe me fine, your loss. cant be arsed to argue with you and you havent changed my mind
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 17 November 2004, 10:55
i'm not saying you would change one or two, i'm saying that in theory you could.

mate - i don't believe you. have a look at your engine - the tappets are a small component that make no difference to power. thats why the 16v has the same tappets as the 8v, which has the same tappets as 1.8 which has the same tappets as a 1.6 - which coincidently are the same as 1.3, which are also probably the same on the G60 and G60 Limited.

THE TAPPETS ARE ALL THE SAME. THERE IS NO ALL CONQUERING TAPPET  >:D
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: piggy on 17 November 2004, 11:36
Dont say that! :o
PAY HOMAGE TO THE ALL CONQUERING TAPPET........ WE ARE NO WORTHY ;)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 17 November 2004, 11:46
BOW DOWN BEFORE MY TAPPETS? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D[/size][/b]
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 17 November 2004, 12:11
calm down kids ;D

if thats right then it could benefit all those models as well then ;) think he said something about them being thinner aswell? could open the valves a bit more or something like that too ??? they are excellent engine tuners there and theres no bullsh!t

your arguing with the wrong person really cos i dont know all the details, i was just told in a conversation.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: benmk1 on 17 November 2004, 18:59
well thanks for the advice fellas, didn't expect wwIII (or should that be IV ;))
will change the oil and filter, an put a flush in first......if this helps, which i doubt as the oil looks fresh, then many thanks.
If it's still noisey will get tappets from vw. I did motor vehicle studies in school :o, way back i know, an i remember adjusting them but not replacing, is this straight forward?
I haven't got a haynes yet either.
Cheers
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: benmk1 on 17 November 2004, 19:01
oh aye an how much does a timing chain cost?
an i bet that's a sod to change
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Helios_Blue_Valver on 17 November 2004, 19:43
Quote from: tobz. on 16 November 2004, 10:57
Hydraulic tappets become clogged up over time especially if the the oil isn't changed regularly enough. They usually start tapping when cold as the oil takes longer to fill them up, once the engine is warm and the oils thins they fill up and the tapping goes away. Once they become really bad the tapping will be present regardless of engine temperature.
Wynns make a hydraulic tappet cleaner, you put it in your engine for a couple of hundred miles then change your oil.
I had a passat once with really noisy tappets I used the wynns stuff and was really impressed it shut them up completely, I'd recommend it anyday.

You can also drain out about a liter of your oil and top it up with auto transmission fluid. Take the car out and trash it about again the do an oil change. The high detergent in the tranny fluid cleans like mad. Just don'e leave it in there long as it thins the oil quite a bit.

Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 17 November 2004, 21:54
i find wyns engine flush when you change the oil quietens them down for a bit
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 17 November 2004, 23:18
Quote from: veedubgti16v on 17 November 2004, 21:54
i find wyns engine flush when you change the oil quietens them down for a bit

exactly.

from what i picked up the main reasons they tap is because they are worn out, and the oil seal they need to develop to work properly doesn't form very well, or breaks down very quickly.

so whilst the oil cleaner gets rid of some of the rubbish, it doesn't compensate for wear.

at which point you need my patent pending:


TINMAN'S ALL CONQUERING TAPPET
[/color]
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: eyeletboy on 17 November 2004, 23:25
agree with vdubgti16v ;) good stuff innit :)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: piggy on 18 November 2004, 04:17
AND THEN THERE WAS PEACE IN THE LAND.................

Except for the sound of little tappets going tappety ;D
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 18 November 2004, 10:37
Quote from: benmk1 on 17 November 2004, 19:01
oh aye an how much does a timing chain cost?
an i bet that's a sod to change

was ?15 from vw bout 5 months ago :D
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 10:17
Quote from: tinman on 16 November 2004, 11:23
Quote from: Veedubgti8v on 16 November 2004, 10:03
dont get the original tappets from vw get the updated ones off of newer cars cos they are loads lighter and a lot quieter on start up

the weight of the tappets make no difference. if the engine has adequate oil pressure they'll be silent from the start. if the engine doesn't ahve the correct oil pressure then they will click for a few moments until the engine comes up to pressure.

buy the real things. no point in cutting a corner when you dont have to.

and they are updated ones from vw as are fitted to mk 4's etc. i didnt mean german/swedish pants!  :o

lower weight means easier reving cos the valves can open faster and close faster
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 21 November 2004, 14:51
Quote from: Veedubgti8v on 21 November 2004, 10:17
lower weight means easier reving cos the valves can open faster and close faster

you people have strange ideas about what counts for performance modifications....
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 17:36
right ok. so whats the point of lightening and balancing things in your engine then? my mantra is if it breaks replace it with a better and/or performance part.

this would be the lightening bit
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 21 November 2004, 17:59
you guys modifiying cars is frightening to listen to at times...
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 18:44
right whatever. why did vw make different tappets then if there is no point?
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 21 November 2004, 19:01
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 17:59
you guys modifiying cars is frightening to listen to at times...


whys that because you dont understand?
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 19:10
cheers mark!
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 21 November 2004, 20:07
Quote from: veedubgti16v on 21 November 2004, 19:01
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 17:59
you guys modifiying cars is frightening to listen to at times...


whys that because you dont understand?


I'm sorry, i find this hysterically funny....

I take it all back.

You, and whoever discovered that changing tappets increasing the rev"ability" of your engine, are obviously better engine designers than VWs own inhouse engineers. Now that - is funny.

Its not like VW spent a few million DMs designing a 16v head, and never concluded that lightwieght tappets were the way to go!!
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: 1300mk2 on 21 November 2004, 20:21
a lighter balanced part may not improve performance in terms of bhp but will improve efficiency. some people knife edge their cranks which means it will cut through oil more easily. this wont improve performance but will improve efficientcy. What about piston balancing. Lightening your pistons to within a thou of a gram of the lightest piston. so i'm afraid that a tappet is not just a tappet if you are taking it to the extremes of engine tuning.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 21 November 2004, 20:27
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 20:07
Quote from: veedubgti16v on 21 November 2004, 19:01
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 17:59
you guys modifiying cars is frightening to listen to at times...


whys that because you dont understand?


I'm sorry, i find this hysterically funny....

I take it all back.

You, and whoever discovered that changing tappets increasing the rev"ability" of your engine, are obviously better engine designers than VWs own inhouse engineers. Now that - is funny.

Its not like VW spent a few million DMs designing a 16v head, and never concluded that lightwieght tappets were the way to go!!

get off yer high horse mate

Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 21 November 2004, 20:34
look, if you guys want to swallow some of these "improvements" then knock yourself out. Its a free country and all that!
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: 1300mk2 on 21 November 2004, 20:41
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 20:34
look, if you guys want to swallow some of these "improvements" then knock yourself out. Its a free country and all that!


so are you saying that because vw spent so much money developing cylinder heads that they can't be improved? their breif would have been cofined to a budget and the confines of mass production otherwise all the parts would have been hand made. the cylinder heads would have come out of the factory ported and polished. Virtually everything on a mass produced engine can be improved. believe 8)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: 1300mk2 on 21 November 2004, 20:43
including the tappets
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 21:08
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 20:07
Quote from: veedubgti16v on 21 November 2004, 19:01
Quote from: tinman on 21 November 2004, 17:59
you guys modifiying cars is frightening to listen to at times...


whys that because you dont understand?


I'm sorry, i find this hysterically funny....

I take it all back.

You, and whoever discovered that changing tappets increasing the rev"ability" of your engine, are obviously better engine designers than VWs own inhouse engineers. Now that - is funny.

Its not like VW spent a few million DMs designing a 16v head, and never concluded that lightwieght tappets were the way to go!!

besides 16v heads were made in what 87 or something? im talking about tappets off of more modern vag engines. of course things are gonna evolve over time and we are talking a decade, materials and technology and machining tolerances get better and better, things are now lighter and stronger than they ever were. its like moving from cast iron blocks etc to aluminium.

vw are good but they arent exactly fearrai or aston martin are they? they have cost and mass producing to think of. tinman you are not the be all and end all of vw knowledge, although you seem to think you are.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: tinman on 21 November 2004, 21:30
Quote from: 1300mk2 on 21 November 2004, 20:41
so are you saying that because vw spent so much money developing cylinder heads that they can't be improved? their breif would have been cofined to a budget and the confines of mass production otherwise all the parts would have been hand made. the cylinder heads would have come out of the factory ported and polished. Virtually everything on a mass produced engine can be improved. believe 8)


for people who have opened up their engines this is very strange. has anyone actually looked at the cams?

the tappet does not go on and off like a switch. the cam has a shape that starts opening the tappet until it is fully open. it then starts closing the tappet.

this open and close is not a full on and off, its a gradual on and then a gradual off. so the weight of the tappet plays no part in it. the open and close is dictated by the rotation of the cam.

the idea that you want to balance the tappets is very odd. they hardly weigh anything in the first place. plus they are machine tooled which will have incredibly tight tolerances. the reason you balance piston heads though is because they are cast and then machine tooled.

a mass produced engine is a compromise, thats why you can improve it. however, for every change you make there is a counter action.

cause and effect.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 21:35
yes thats true of the cam but a tappet is still sprung weight, i.e a weight above the valve held there by the valve springs which if it was lighter would take less to move. and what point are you trying to make with your counter action bit?

and yes i have 'opened up' my engine so know very well what cams etc look like and how they work thank you.
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 21 November 2004, 21:39
i wouldnt bother its obvious tinman is more knowledgable than a garage full of vw engine tuners ::)
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 21:43
yeah that was gonna be my last post im to busy laughing at lambo doors in chat!  ;D

mark i need to do my cambelt soon gonna try do before xmas
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: VeeDubGTI16v on 21 November 2004, 21:50
have fun freezing your fingers ;D man i hate doing jobs in the winter, it always hurts more when you slip off the socket :P
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Veedubgt18v on 21 November 2004, 21:52
yeah i know well we will see how work goes and stuff
Title: Re: 16v tappets, etc
Post by: Agreeable Slick on 25 November 2004, 15:55
Back to the origional point, buy some valve lifter, it goes in with the oil and cures all hydraulic rattles, and makes the engine run a bit better from cold.