GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: Mars Attacks on 08 March 2010, 09:06
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Morning,
Got a strange problem and i'm hoping somebody can help. My missus has a MK3 8v gti (1995) which i was driving last night.
When i got home (was late around midnight, not that that is important) and stopped the engine, turned off the lights and locked up. Then i noticed that the dipped headlights were still on. No other lights had remained on, the nothing at the rear, nothing on the dash or dials, just the dipped headlights. When i turned the headlight switch in the car back on the dash and dials lit as they should, but when i turned them off again everything went off apart from the dipped headlights.
In the end i had to disconnect the battery to get them to go off and hoped that whatever the problem was would reset itself over night.
Connected the battery back up today and the lights came back on again. Ended up having to unplug the light clusters individually so i could take the car to work.
Anybody had the same problems before. I had driven the car earlier on in the night with the lights on and they had turned off correctly. I thought it may be a fuse / relay problem but really have no idea where to start. Any pointers would be gratefully received. Cheers
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hi mate, you dont say what model you have, but i take it the mk2 in the sig? tho theres a mk3 next to it.....lol
anyway, there is no relay for the lights in the golf, its all done inside the lighting switch, with fused protection. The switch is notoriously crap and you can just pull it out (a bit fiddly) and replace it with an ebay one, there are millions, try to get a cheap buy-it-now from a premium seller and it will be there in a flash. I have a spare mk3 one that doesnt put the lights on unless you throw the switch firmly, hence I replaced it. If you were local you could have it, and get one when you could but they are commonly faulty and get replaced a lot. My new one has no light behind the dash illum control button, but hey it works otherwise lol. I think I'll go into business refurbing them once ive fixed that ;)
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I'd guess he's referring to his missus Mk3 GTI 8v seeing as he starts by saying "My missus has a MK3 8v gti (1995)" and this is in the Mk3 section :wink:
By the way that's a Mk1 Sportline cabrio not a Mk2 :grin:
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Oh and I'd also change the headlight switch and see where that gets you!!
My nan once looked out of her bedroom window as she was going to bed, and noticed her number plate lights were on :shocked: She went outside, opened the car, and tapped the headlight switch, then the number plate lights went off! Although it kept doing it (pretty much every night!) so she bought a new headlight switch and it's been fine since :)
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cheers for the posts, yeah i thought i'd been specific enough mentioning it was a mk3 problem.
seems like everything points towards the headlamp switch so i'll look into that.
Need to get it sorted as the missus has handed off her car to me until its fixed, all the while she gets to drive my sportline to work getting all the attention! ha
cheers
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Do you know how to remove the headlight switch mate? Just wondering what would happen if you disconnected it
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yeah i had a quick go in the carpark at lunch and figured out how to get it off. have got the headlamp clusters disconnected so didn't see what happened when i took the switch off. will have a go tonight and see what happens. obviously the headlight switch is still working for the dash lights and front and rear fogs as they still light up when i turn the switch. and the dimmer switch still works as well.
might try your nan's method and give it a friendly tap as well!
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Might also be worth checking the dim / dip resistor.
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now then, time for an update.
i located the dim / dip resistor and removed it completely as it was hanging inside the wing un attached so just unplugged and removed. but the headlights remain permanently on unfortunately.
i also tried removing the headlight switch, but the lights still remained on. did a test and turned on the front and rear fogs with the headlight switch and then unplugged the switch, and they all turned off, however the headlights stayed on.
anything else i can try people? mot on friday so its picked a perfect time to crop up!!
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both headlights or just one? Thinking she might have left an indicator stalk up or down and getting "parking" style lights?
J
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nah its both headlights i'm afraid and they are on dipped headlights as opposed to side lights as well so its very strange, have had to unplug the clusters again today so that i don't have to keep disconnecting the battery.
not sure what else to try, can only think it must be an earthing problem somewhere. more of a mk1 / mk2 man myself so not sure where all the earth straps are on a mk3.
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have you tried taking the bulbs out of the headlight's one, by one? Can't remember exactly how it works, but another bulb (or broken wire) can end up providing an "earth" path for another.
You can check ground levels and voltage flows with a multimeter. £5 Maplins or so. Ground is checked using the volts scale and putting a probe on the neg battery post, and the neg of whatever your testing - should read < 0.5v
J
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cheers i'll try that later thanks.
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If the lights stay on when you disconnect the switch then you must have a constant earth.
I think the lights have a constant live feed.
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yeah that makes sense, just need to find it, and if its right that a defective headlight bulb might cause this then we might be getting closer to resolving it! hopefully. cheers
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The headlights are switched via a relay aren't they? The relay contacts may have welded themselves together? Pull the relay and see if they go off. (I don't know which relay it is though)
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i didn't think they had a relay, but if anyone knows if they do, the number would be helpful please. :smiley:
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ok so over lunch i've been out and had a quick look at the car, i removed the bulbs one by one but everything looked fine and the lights remain on when i reconnect.
One thing did occur to me, perhaps they have been uprated in the past (we've had the car for 2 years and i've never looked at the headlamps as they have never been a problem.) and perhaps a relay was added to the system which might have stuck open.
In that case, where would it be? with the other relays on the fuse box, and if so which slot would it occupy? any ideas if anyone has uprated the headlamps themselves?
Thanks again, sorry i'm useless i know!
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hiya
seems like there isn't a relay which surprises me.
http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/Campingart/jettatech/techset/index.htm (http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/Campingart/jettatech/techset/index.htm)
I think the volt meter is your friend on this one, you need to trace the power back from the lights and find which bit is causing them to stay on. For example: if you find that the headlight switch is always live both sides, or that removing the main-beam blub turns them off, relays, etc, then you've found the problem.
>One thing did occur to me, perhaps they have been uprated in the past (we've had the car for 2 years and i've never looked at the headlamps as they have never been a problem.) and perhaps a relay was added to the system which might have stuck open.
a good thought. I think they're usually close to the headlights - so follow the wires back and look for a small box on the wires. (Good opportunity to look for breaks, cuts, damage etc whilst you're there).
Thinking about this more. If it were me - i'd start at one end and work forwards. i.e. Pull the headlight switch and confirm (using voltmeter, or test lamp) that power is deffo off when switch is off. Then i'd try to follow the power to the headlight - something is powering it just to find out what. I'd check the power feeds to the light clusters, i.e. that the wires are live when the switches are live in the cabin - again start with all off, and power one by one.
A Haynes manual would help with the wiring diagrams too.
Keep us updated...
James
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thanks again, yeah will have to pick up a multimeter and figure out the source of the problem or i could be in there all day trying to guess what could be the problem. cheers
update - i've been out to the car again and had a good look round the wiring and no sign of any inline relays so i'll eliminate that and look for the source of the power via a multimeter.
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Check all wiring plugs for burning/melting? :undecided:
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Now then, just a little update and a request for help again for advice
i borrowed a multimeter from a guy at work and have had a look at the car again over lunch,
as expected on both head lamp clusters there is a constant 12.5v live feed present which would explain why the lights are permanently on. i tried following the cable round on both sides of the engine bay till they dissapeared but could see no signs of frayed cable or loose connections.
back inside the car, i took the headlight switch out and with the switch still plugged in i identified pin 11 (red and yellow cable) as being live at 12.5v while the rest appeared to be dead. I unplugged the switch and checked again and the pin 11 remained live. From looking at one of the guides on here, it looks like pin 11 is supposed to be live anyway so that doesn't help.
i tried pulling the fuses for headlamp left and right and they do go off as they should do.
i'm no auto electrician by any means so if anyone could draw any conclusions from any of that i'd be very grateful. if you need any more info let me know. thanks again.
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Thinking what i posted before, i don't think there should be constant live feed, until the switch is turned on.
If you unplug the connector from the light switch, do you still get a live feed at the lights?
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hi, yeah i've just been out again and tested that and the lights do remain on when the switch is disconnected.
one strange thing i have noticed although it will have been like this for the 2 years we've had the car, but on the plug that goes into the headlamp cluster, on both sets of headlights, 2 of the wires look like they have been cut close to the plug and then reattached as they each have identical wrappings of electrical tape.
I wondered if this could be a sign that the headlights had been uprated and bring us back to the stuck inline relay problem? i did have a look and couldn't find one but it might be there and i just haven't spotted it??
clutching at straws i think!
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very interesting.
I would expect the power to the lights to be off when the switch is off - i.e. the live is switched.
So something is powering the lights after the fuse but other than the switch... Have you a Haynes/Bentley's manual? Else I'll look in mine tonight and see whats on the circuit after the fuse & switch.
What mk3 is it? GTI?
James
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Hi i don't have a haynes manual for this car. its a 95 gti 8v if that helps.
i'm guessing it must be earthing somewhere incorrectly but nothing looks out of place when i look around the wiring. any help would be great thanks.
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there is no relay normally, and as said, the switch gets the live first, then it splits to the 2 fused feeds to each light as far as I remember, so somehow those fuses are getting a 12v feed by some problem at the fuse box maybe. Also, theres a feed to the stereo from the lighting circuit to tell it to dim the display, if that got shorted to the 12v feed next in the plug that powers the stereo, that would back-feed the sidelight circuit, and may even put on the main beams depending on earthing arrangements.
WHat you can try, is pulling every fuse one by one EXCEPT the 2 dip beam ones (1 & 2) and see if killing anything else, kills the phantom lights - and there may be your culprit.
I'll try and dig out the lighting circuit and see how its wired, I have it somewhere.
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thats a good idea pulling the fuses, might lead me to the answer, will have a try tonight. thanks for the info.
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Hiya
Looked at the diagrams for these circuits in Haynes and Bentleys - and apart from not being able to find the on/off switch (so lights should always be on! lol) the only other obvious cuprit is the the indicator stalk - but that would be main beam. Hmmm.
Are you sure that the headlight switch does power off - i.e. not stuck on?
James
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evening, well i've tried some more stuff and still getting nowhere.
the indicator stalk still works fine when pulled back as the full beam lights turn on and off so its not that like you say,
with the light clusters plugged back in (so the headlamps are annoyingly on! :angry:) i pulled out every fuse one by one apart from 1 + 2, but the lights stayed on so i can eliminate that. i also removed the stereo and checked for any loose wiring back there and nothing, all neat and tidy.
i've been round the engine bay from the right headlight, followed the wires across the slam panel, through some strange circular multi plug, into the left headlight and back under the airbox and out of sight towards the fuse box. all cables are still wrapped up and no sign of frayed edges or loose wires.
the headlights stay on with the headlight switch unplugged completely so i thought that eliminated the switch as a problem?
i'm looking at some weird earthing problem or something i can't see in or behind the fuse box. i can't understand how it went from being fine at about 8pm on sunday, then driving hoke for 15 miles and then the lights sticking on. Been trying to think if anything happened on the trip home that might have triggered it, but i can't think of anything. i did have a passenger so is it possible there is something in the passenger footwell that could have been kicked or damaged. clutching at straws again.
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I'd look at the indicator stalk, disconnect it, dipped runs through that too.
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sorry to sound like a dumbass, but how do i disconnect it mate?
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Well you need to remove the steering wheel and the trim around it, then there are three mini torx or flat blade screws IIRC then it lifts out and you can disconnect the wires.
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ok will have a go at that, never removed a steering wheel with an airbag but first time for everything!
the steering wheel is off centre anyway so would be a good excuse to straighten that up! :laugh:
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Yeah it's not difficult.
Joe said how to do it, allen keys behind or something. I've removed airbags without disconnecting battery before, it runs through ignition, but disconnect battery anyhow.
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Here. (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=147152.0)
Read it through but DO NOT turn ignition on when connecting battery.
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great, you telling me i've had a wonky steering wheel for the past 2 years and its that easy to get it off! wish i'd looked earlier! cheers mate
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No probs, it's the next thing I'd do, I can't think of much more it could be unless wires are crossed.
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Ahh good ol' wonky steering wheel syndrome. I thought all Mk3's had it :grin:
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yeah i think i'm just a lazy bum, the sportline's steering wheel is an inch off as well and we know how easy they are to take off and i still haven't done that one! going to do both at the weekend for definate! ha
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ok, the big weird multi plug, the large round one - did you split that and see if corrosion or damage inside there is leading 12v onto the lighting wires?
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hi, sorry about my lack of terminology with the big weird large round multiplug!
yeah i opened that up and it looked like it had never been opened in its life, was pristine inside. i used the multimeter and found the centre wire as being live at 12.5v. That being said, at least that eliminates the right hand side of the car as to where the bad earth could be i suppose. the fault lies somewhere from that multiplug, past the left headlamp and back to the fusebox
taking the steering wheel off when i get home to unplug the indicator stalk to see if that does anything. oh and straigtening up the steering wheel which has been cock eyed since we bought it 2 years ago! :rolleyes:
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i give up! the car has beaten me!
have removed the airbag, then steering wheel and then the indicator stalks and the headlights remain permanently on! :angry:
so i've tried pretty much everything, and its going in for its MOT tomorrow so i'm guessing this might be a fail!
can anyone think of anything else?
so far i have tried
checked the wiring from the plugs in the back of each cluster back to where they dissapear into the car
removed all the fuses one by one and nothing killed them (apart from no1 and no2 obviously)
removed the headlight switch and they still stay on
removed the indicator stalks and no difference
removing each bulb one by one
must be an earthing problem somewhere thats all i can think. but i can't find it. :sad:
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doesn't sound earth related to be honest - more a short and a supply problem.
Is it a garage doing the MOT or just a test station? Perhaps they'll have to find it.
Good efforts anyway!
Let us know the outcome!
James
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yeah you could be right. its a small one man band garage we use so hopefully he'll be able to find it and not spend too long finding it!
was worth having a go and i've learned a bit more about mk3's at least. plus the steering wheel looks nice and straight finally so not all lost!
cheers for the help everyone, will let you know how we get on. glad i get back in the sportline tomorrow anyway, much more simpler!
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Hope the MOT goes well.
That has pretty much confirmed there is a short somewhere, something's touching, it's a matter of where.
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hey i just found a diagram on a disc i have and there should be a multi plug around the radiator according to this make sure the fan aint chopped any wires down there its just an idea .i can try and post the diagram if you want? :smiley:
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cheers, yeah had the multi plug out and it was in perfect condition from what i could see.
the car has gone off with the missus for the mot now so its out of my hands, gave the mechanic a list of the things i tried so should give him a headstart so we'll see.
the good news is though that i'm back in the sportline again today! every cloud and all that! :smiley:
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:grin:
Right, when you took the multiplug out, did the lights go off? If not then good, if so then it it's a nightmare, because there is a short somewhere in the dash loom.
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hi mate, well when i unplugged it the lights on the right went out as i had basically disconnected them from the live feed, and the left ones stayed lit.
i took a call from the missus who tells me the problem is sorted. and she is trying to claim credit for it as well!! ....but i'll believe that when i see it later when i get home.
plus i bought a vag-com lead as well of ebay today so i can try and clear the airbag light which stayed on after i removed the steering wheel last night. don't fancy taking it back off and putting it on with the battery connected. my luck isn't that good as you can see by the current problem! :grin:
will update a bit later on....
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OK, cool, let us know what it was. :grin:
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PROBLEM SOLVED :wink:
or rather, problem solved by pure luck or just because the car loves its owner (the missus) more than it loves me. :rolleyes:
Anyways, after i had spent every night this week and lunchtimes at work trying different things to clear the problem with no luck, i hand the keys back over to the missus to take to her garage so it can be mot'd.
i get a call back later in the morning and she says the problem has dissapeared! i asked what she has done and all that happened was that she put the drivers seat back forward as i have it right back and also the passenger seat as well as i'd had that back rummaging around in the footwell looking for any loose wiring. and by the time it got to the garage, the problem was gone. unbelievable
i know there is a chance it might come back as i have no clue what happened in the first place, but sod it i'm happy i don't have to spend any more time on it. And to add an even bigger bonus, the car flew through its mot and needed nothing at all. :laugh:
so all back to normal, and i even got a straight steering wheel and bought a vag-com out of the experience!
thanks to everyone for the suggestions and help, its was all gratefully received.
a happy drive way once again!
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m3/speggyuk/DSC00422.jpg)
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Wow. Cool.
There are wires under the carpets, I think one of them must have shorted with the seat being moved about. Would explain it.
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yeah i thought that, will investigate that, but i'm not giving her any credit! i put all the graft in!
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:laugh:
Waste of breath. :grin:
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Wow. Cool.
There are wires under the carpets, I think one of them must have shorted with the seat being moved about. Would explain it.
Where are these wires that you speak of? I've stripped out several Mk3's in my time and there aren't ANY wires underneath EITHER of the seats (except from the heated seat loom of course!!). All the wires run down the side of the car under the plastic sill covers..
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Wow. Cool.
There are wires under the carpets, I think one of them must have shorted with the seat being moved about. Would explain it.
Where are these wires that you speak of? I've stripped out several Mk3's in my time and there aren't ANY wires underneath EITHER of the seats (except from the heated seat loom of course!!). All the wires run down the side of the car under the plastic sill covers..
+1 spot on no wires under the seats.
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I'm pretty sure i have some wires under my seats... I'll confirm this tomorrow. :huh:
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I stand corrected then, I must be thinking of the door switch, it runs from one side to the other and is near the seat.
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plus the only lighting wires running back to the rear are the reverse, indicator, brake and tail lights, and they would have brung the sidelights on i would think, not the dips - if they had shorted.
Does your missus go over speedbumps like they are invisible? My niece does - the car gets a good old battering every time she hits one. Maybe shook the shorted wiring apart where ever it was.
It would be good to strip the fusebox and trace where no1 and no2 are getting power from when they were faulty, but will be impossible to find now, unless it comes back. Best o luck tho mate! Glad its working for now ;)