GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => Car audio => Topic started by: mark-mk3gti on 24 February 2010, 19:22
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after lots of time messing about, its finally finished, just gotta build the sub box and also make a floor liner so it all matches, oh and cover the underside of the shelf so spekers arent so obvious, then thats it for my system, relaitively cheap, but works and hopefully not too heavy, its only an 8v so dont want it strugglin more than it has too! :)
system is, 5.25 vibe components and speaker ring adapters in standard locations, a jbl gt5a604e amp, pants sony headunit, caliber eq in glovebox (to componsate for hu) and will be a jbl 12" sub in arch build eventually, maybe in a box for a while, simble but effective.
box on show
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/mark3gti/amp2.jpg)
inside
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/mark3gti/amp1.jpg)
speaker rings
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/mark3gti/doorspkring.jpg)
perhaps need to get thay crease out of the bottom bit, but floor trim panel will cover it eventually
:smiley:
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was there a reason you went down a size in front speakers?
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There were 2reasons really, 1 I got the speakers for 20 reduced from 65odd, the rings were 3quid, and your meant to get a clearer sound from 5.25,
however I'm not that amazed with em, my Saxo had jbl power 5.25s in it and they were miles better, so wen I got my sub in will have to see what it's like, and I may change them, just on a budget at mo cos prob need a bit of bodywork doing later this year,
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your meant to get a clearer sound from 5.25,
The main difference is a large reduction is bass output over 6.5's. C
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If you can cap the cabin speakers at 80htz that will help somewhat with the bass response. With such little speakers, I would also consider capping them at 120htz and running your sub from 120htz down.
How good this sounds will depend on the quality of your sub and how much power your amp can deilver to it.
If you are running a sub at 120htz then it may be better to have the sub firing directly into the cabin through the parcel shelf. More work I know but probably worth it for the sound quality.
Personally, unless your multi channel amp is very powerful, I would run another amp purely for the sub.
A.J.
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Hi there, yeah fronts are capped at 120mhz, 6x9 are capped at 80mhz I think, and wen I get my sub i've got a smaller amp which is going under passenger seat so I run the 6x9s as rear fill, and use the better amp for front and sub, always had 12" subs so getting same again and will cap at 120mhz if not a bit lower, depends how it sounds, jbl amp is 4x60rms which is fine for me, don't want to be bouncing, lol, not like my days of youth, so prob get somet like the jbl 1202d or the single coil one whichis cheaper still,
I think I'll be getting 6.5s at some point but car needs a bit of work first now, as all 14yr old golfs do. :)
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like what you have dome with the amp, looks cool
not sure why you want to use Junk But Loud stuff tho (JBL) i find they make terrible car audio, for my speakers i use focal and rainbow, try them and you wont ever want anything else
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I would not say all there gear is junk. Afterall Gary Biggs was sound quality world champion for years using there gear. A thing i like about JBL staff in the states is there technical guys know more about sound/audio and speak the truth rather than marketing BS all other (excluding one other) manufactures speak.
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I would not say all there gear is junk
X2, the GT4 subs are pretty much legendary. You will have to spend much,much more to get anything better.
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JBL car audio is sh!te when you compair to brands like focal and rainbow, try it out, i used to think like you too
i run JBL in my home studio for my dj work so i do like JBL but their car stuff is below par, my opinion of course :wink:
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hi mate, i agree, its budget gear, but i'm on a budget! lol, and i will only have a jbl sub and amp, the comps are vibe(which i think are worse) and 6x9s are kickers, the whole thing prob hasnt cost much over 100quid and does sound reasonable, amd includes all 4awg gear etc, only thing messing me up is a caliber eq which is cr@p generates a bit of noise, but unless i mute at max vol u dont notice it, (but i know its there)
ive had all sorts when i was younger, i worked in a car stereo shop for stock; not pay while at college, 10yrs ago, my the years fly,
lol, and i had all rockford gear and i was one of the first in the area to get a in dash touch full motorised screen, a mint clarion vrx918r, i paid trade price of £1031 and it rrpd at 1600, we used it as a demo hence i got it cheap, but of the 2 ordered only 1 came and i got it :D
i find when using jbl speakers, i know they are loud and proud but when run at more comfortable volumes they do provide a pretty good sound and good freq range, focal and such are another level financially and obviously worth the $$
see you all at santa pod! YAY!
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mate i loved the early rockford stuff, still got my original punch amps (the first ones that were a mad grill shape), they were KILLA, also still got my punch subs, just could never let them go.. not sure on their new stuff as not used it
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I had 3 really good setups with Rockford gear and sold each set as I moved on cars, it's only after I wish I hadn't every time! Yet still did it, one set I sold to my mate and I saw him last year and he's still got it all, running a dream, must be 8years ago I sold it!! Wish I still had it.
are you going to pod with ur golf kells? Wish mine looked like that!
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cheers matey, nice to hear compliments, unfortunatly wont be their matey, i need to try get to some shows etc, but with been a dj i am up all night most weekends so hte days are usually chill out time and time with the lady! :laugh:
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JBL car audio is sh!te when you compair to brands like focal and rainbow, try it out, i used to think like you too
i run JBL in my home studio for my dj work so i do like JBL but their car stuff is below par, my opinion of course :wink:
Trust me, the gt4 subs will blow pretty much anything out of the water. There is not another manufacturer which will touch JBL in a price-vs-performance comparison (amp/sub wise especially). There are few who will touch the GT4 full stop(for out and out volume and power handling), unless you particularly want something which will handle over 800wrms, if you do then 2xgt4s would be a good idea :laugh:
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kells is just very opinionated and makes sure his point is put across. :grin:
I had a GT4 until it blew on me...bad times, but in the time (7 months :lipsrsealed:) it was a good sub for sure. However now I have an Infinity 1250 (I think) and I much prefer the lower notes on this, using a 4 channel JBL amp to power my Infinity Kappas component speakers and the sub and it is a cracking set up, nice and loud and bassy. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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kells is just very opinionated and makes sure his point is put across. :grin:
I had a GT4 until it blew on me...bad times, but in the time (7 months :lipsrsealed:) it was a good sub for sure. However now I have an Infinity 1250 (I think) and I much prefer the lower notes on this, using a 4 channel JBL amp to power my Infinity Kappas component speakers and the sub and it is a cracking set up, nice and loud and bassy. :evil: :evil: :evil:
The GT4 will perform at its best in a humongous ported box, (as most subs will do the same if you get it right) without this I can see why you would be slightly disappointed or less than in awe of its performance.
If you were running the GT4 from the amp I predict you are (75.4?) then you should have had some trouble killing the sub. Unless of course the amp was set up very, very badly or there was some other problem such as a manufacturing fault or some other kind of abuse. They can quiet happily run at 700w (ish) all day long and a 75.4 ( along with many 4ch amps) would have a fair bit of trouble ever producing that kind of power.
I have heard an infinity sub a while ago (almost definitely a different model to yours) retailing at about the same price as a GT4, it definitely seemed more SQ orientated (just looking/feeling it) but the volume-vs-power I was very unimpressed with, again tends to be a feature/tradeoff of good SQ kit.
That is not to say the GT4 is poor for SQ but it takes a bit more care (as mentioned above) to get the best out of them.
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After all this talk about jbl subs and promising I'd get one, I was bored and went into local halfrauds cos they bin clearing loads of stuff out, (hence vibe 5.25 comps for 20quid) and I spotted this kicker es sub in proper kicker box etc, i've always liked the look of it, it was stacked up with a load of other mutant crap and some vibe bits, so I asked this young kid how much, he said could be 15 or 25quid, but he asked his gaffer and he had a look and it came up as 40, so bought it, still a bargain but I'm sure they made a booboo cos it had 150 on it then 99 last week! So will get it connected tommorrow, typically i've had nothin to do on my 3days off and pick this up tonight, lol,
never had a ported sub box, so be interesting to see what's it's like, and at that price if I don't like it, if I get same back its no bigy,
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kells is just very opinionated and makes sure his point is put across. :grin:
yeah when i know i am right, no point kissing ass and not saying what i think like many others on this wonderfull forum :wink:
speaking from exp pal, been driving round in cars with big systems long enought to know and trust me JBL car audio really is JUNK BUT LOUD
try something like focal/rainbow etc and you will know waht i mean
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After all this talk about jbl subs and promising I'd get one, I was bored and went into local halfrauds cos they bin clearing loads of stuff out, (hence vibe 5.25 comps for 20quid) and I spotted this kicker es sub in proper kicker box etc, i've always liked the look of it, it was stacked up with a load of other mutant crap and some vibe bits, so I asked this young kid how much, he said could be 15 or 25quid, but he asked his gaffer and he had a look and it came up as 40, so bought it, still a bargain but I'm sure they made a booboo cos it had 150 on it then 99 last week! So will get it connected tommorrow, typically i've had nothin to do on my 3days off and pick this up tonight, lol,
never had a ported sub box, so be interesting to see what's it's like, and at that price if I don't like it, if I get same back its no bigy,
kicker were always good, got any pics? model number ?
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Hi mate, yeah I'll take a snap rommorrow and post it up, :)
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JBL car audio is sh!te when you compair to brands like focal and rainbow, try it out, i used to think like you too
As i said it depends what ones you are talking about to label it all is st1t is just ignorant.
The 660GTI components has one of the best small dome tweeters out there and the midbass for a true 6" produces some of the most acurate midbass going. There not cheap but are cheaper than topend focals and give the focal more than a run for there money. The Engineering behind them is also more superior and on Kippler testing has far less distorsion than the focals or rainbow.
The GTI subs are also extremely good sound quality subs. They are just so damb huge which is the problem.
The JBL amps can all be tunned to sound as good as anything out there if you know how to set a system up correctly.
Just a bit of background on me. I was running Rainbow years ago must have been around 95. Then it stopped been imported. I started to import Rainbow direct from a contact i made at the company for friends and my own use back in ~2000 before Amit at PlatinumICE started to official import it ~2002(he sort of got there before i asked lol) It then went to another importer than to the current importers iirc. So i know alot about rainbow and who they are how they started, were they got there ideas :wink: and how most of them sound. I have also had a large amount of the focals utopia drivers in my time so know what they are like too.
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with all due respect dude, if you think JBL car audio is anywhere clsoe to been as good as the likes of focal and rainbow you really are in a dream world, not meaning to sound tw4tish its just plain boknkers to think otherwise
jbl is cheep and (in my opinion) is sh!te compaired to these brands for car audio, i would class jbl a more entry level brand for car audio personally, iv run jbl car stuff and find it to be poor quality.my best mate just bought some componets (against my advice) for his mk4... and he is very dissapointed with them..
so yeah, not a fan of their car audio stuff at all
not like my home JBL monitoirs which iv had for years and are fantastic, just so you know im not a hater of JBL :wink:
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with all due respect dude, if you think JBL car audio is anywhere clsoe to been as good as the likes of focal and rainbow you really are in a dream world, not meaning to sound tw4tish its just plain boknkers to think otherwise
I just wanted to quote that for reference. Not the first time i have been called similar :wink: Mainly on Talkaudio :grin: when the market men and there blind followers get going, funny how in the end im right :wink:
As i said have you heard all of JBLs car range? Or the drivers i listed? Not to sound brash as i sometimes come across as but you want to stop listening to the marketing men and dealers and prejudging things before you hear them for yourself. There is so much BS in audio far more than people could ever imagine(the mind and eyes are more powerful than the ears) its unreal i got sick of dealing with it. When you have been involved with the other side you learn Its 98% marketing BS, 2% engineering. And in car audio, Install and tuning rank so much higher up the list than brand of equipment.
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dude are you having a laugh with that reply or what hahaha
i listen to nobody but my ears...
and how the hell do you end up right, i think its pretty obvious to anyone thats not tone deaf, that JBL are not so great when it comes to quality
sorry but you are seroulsly failing here. id stop if i was you :grin:
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After all this talk about jbl subs and promising I'd get one, I was bored and went into local halfrauds cos they bin clearing loads of stuff out, (hence vibe 5.25 comps for 20quid) and I spotted this kicker es sub in proper kicker box etc, i've always liked the look of it, it was stacked up with a load of other mutant crap and some vibe bits, so I asked this young kid how much, he said could be 15 or 25quid, but he asked his gaffer and he had a look and it came up as 40, so bought it, still a bargain but I'm sure they made a booboo cos it had 150 on it then 99 last week! So will get it connected tommorrow, typically i've had nothin to do on my 3days off and pick this up tonight, lol,
never had a ported sub box, so be interesting to see what's it's like, and at that price if I don't like it, if I get same back its no bigy,
what you would want to do (if you are up for it) is build that sub a massive box with a slot port at the bottom/side of it, it won't cost very much at all. The box will need to be fairly large so you probably won't have much space left in the boot. I could design you a box for it if you want... all you would need to do is buy the wood (B+Q) and cut it (B+Q will do some of it for you) then put it all together, like a very easy 3D jigsaw puzzle :smiley:. I would advise you to listen to it in the box it is in at the moment first and then (if you are up for it) build a box for it and listen to the difference ;)
kells is just very opinionated and makes sure his point is put across. :grin:
yeah when i know i am right, no point kissing ass and not saying what i think like many others on this wonderfull forum :wink:
speaking from exp pal, been driving round in cars with big systems long enought to know and trust me JBL car audio really is JUNK BUT LOUD
try something like focal/rainbow etc and you will know waht i mean
If that is to me then I don't need to try either, I have and I was not too impressed. Rainbow are too bright and focal you are mainly paying for the name/the same can be had for cheaper.
much of what snoopy says unfortunately correct :sad: bonkers or otherwise :grin:
I have been around for a while too :) long enough to know that if you buy JBL you will think you have spent twice the money you actually have.
Just so you know I am not some kind of JBL fan boy, I don't own and never have owned a single piece of JBL equipment, the equipment I do own (some of it at least) would not even have been heard of by 90% of people with upgraded stereos.
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haha ok JBL car audio is better than the likes of focal and rainbow and sound fatastic.. and iv never had JBL car audio equipment nor have my mates :rolleyes:
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haha ok JBL car audio is better than the likes of focal and rainbow and sound fatastic.. and iv never had JBL car audio equipment nor have my mates :rolleyes:
I thought you said your friend had some and he was unimpressed?
I bet you I could make the components which he was unimpressed with sound better than my components which (probably) cost about 10 times the price and are much more highly regarded.This is because my current ones are fitted like ass, this makes so much difference it is unreal.
put another way..
I almost guarantee that if I took time with one door and installed one 'unimpressive comp' properly but took no care with the other door and put one of my ''nice'' ones in and then you got in my car, blindfolded ( :evil: :evil: :grin:), you would not be able to tell which door was which, you would almost certainly pick the 'unimpressive' comp as the better sounding one out of the two.
The blindfolded thing is a pretty crucial part, as you say your ears guide you but truth be told (and almost 100% of people are guilty of this) you ears are not the only things you listen with, your eyes and more importantly your brain play a very big part in what you hear, or what you think you hear, or what you expect to hear. If you spend a grand on some comps then there is no chance your brain is going to let you think they sound like ass.
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dude are you having a laugh with that reply or what hahaha
i listen to nobody but my ears...
and how the hell do you end up right, i think its pretty obvious to anyone thats not tone deaf, that JBL are not so great when it comes to quality
sorry but you are seroulsly failing here. id stop if i was you :grin:
Thats funny :wink:
I end up right it may take years for others to come round but funny they mostly do.
I use to test and help design the electronic side of highend home audio equipment for a living a few years back so i know what makes something different on the electronic side and what does not. (98% marketing!)
As for the other parts i did say install and tuning if you don't understand these last two points (and few people do to the extent i meen) and the transfer function of the cars interior your basically pissing in the wind.
As i said to label all JBL gear as junk is ignorant, as i said have you heard the 660GTI components or the GTI subs in correct enclosed tuned to that cars cabins responce? Im guessing not.
I don't own and never have owned a single piece of JBL equipment, the equipment I do own (some of it at least) would not even have been heard of by 90% of people with upgraded stereos.
I have a funny feeling your talking peerless, scanspeak and alike?
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^^^
This man speaks the truth. It's exactly the same case for televisions, and many many other products across the board.
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What you could argue is that sound is purely subjective. This I can say with some authority as I'm a Professional Sound Engineer. There IS a lot of buying stuff because the badge is X or Y or Z.....
Boils down to how is actually sounds imho :grin:
I've got JBL stuff in my studio (also got some Genelec and Dynaudio :wink: ), and have used a fair bit of it a pro level (high end audio, not car stuff admittedly) - it's got a characteristic that is quite "warm". A trait that is quite "marmite" - you either love it or hate it!! :grin:
Like with ANY brand, there are goodies and real lemons..... JBL are no different.
I personally like a warm sound (if I could valve-amp out my car, I would!!! :grin: ) and JBL stuff (some of it anyway) would suit the bill. I've focal and infinity stuff in previous cars, and imho it was too bright/harsh. Other passengers loved it though.
On a similar note, I had an Audi S4 with Bose - to my ears, I thought it sounded fantastic, not much mid, and as a whole not very accurate, but for what it was (out of the box), blinkin' great.
I think the moral is don't knock anything until you've actually tried it, as it might just suit YOUR purposes, and nobody can argue the toss about what you listen to and why you listen to it.
Besides, we could all have the same setup, and due to how we hear it, it will sound different - one of the virtues of being human :wink:
Just my 2p :smiley:
Dan
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^^^
This man speaks the truth. It's exactly the same case for televisions, and many many other products across the board.
what the hell do u know, really? :grin: :grin:
and to whom in concearns, i was been sarcastic with my previous post, iv had more than one set of JBLs in my car, and the car came with a set, they were run on my alpine head and Pheonix gold amp, they were junk sounding but loud, swapped to focals with the exact same set up and boy what a huge difference, (sold the JBLS on here) i now have some £500 rainbow componets up front and the focals in the rear, and no i did not buy because of the name, i listened to just about all their was out their, one of my better friends is a incar audio installer so it was fitted and set up right :rolleyes: and i got the rainbows and focals at a snip :)
love my home JBL monitors, but the car stuff is cheep... and sounds it. and the build quality is what you would expect from its price
i think someone mentioned its all down to personal taste, well thats the case here.. JBL stuff for my style of music is WACK!!!!!
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^^^
This man speaks the truth. It's exactly the same case for televisions, and many many other products across the board.
what the hell do u know, really? :grin: :grin:
More than you or anyone else would give me credit for. :wink:
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lol ok if you say so :wink: :grin:
on a side note, didnt you say you had JBL sub which blew after 7 months? interesting. and you dont even listen to banging music like i do
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one of my better friends is a incar audio installer so it was fitted and set up right :rolleyes: and i got the rainbows and focals at a snip :)
If your friend is a real pro installer, have a word with him about the JBL driver models i stated originally, If he knows his stuff then he will tell you how not all JBL caraudio is junk as you keep saying it is.
From your statment above you seemed to assumed from when i said "As for the other parts i did say install and tuning if you don't understand these last two points (and few people do to the extent i meen) and the transfer function of the cars interior your basically pissing in the wind." you seemed to think i ment fitted in a door and level setup, it does not. Install and tuning is much more than that, as a start, ask your friend about baffle diffraction, Comb filtering, grill diffraction, off angle responce, pathlength differences, head related transfer function, cabin gain, cabin transfer function....
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I did say that yes. I then got an Infinity sub as that's what I wanted in the first place.
Infinity is the BEST in the WORLD.
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I don't own and never have owned a single piece of JBL equipment, the equipment I do own (some of it at least) would not even have been heard of by 90% of people with upgraded stereos.
I have a funny feeling your talking peerless, scanspeak and alike?
something like that yeah :)
I use vifa tweeters (more renowned in home audio), they came with the top of the range (IIRC) CTD comps a few years ago as an upgrade (for another 200 quid or something stupid), you can buy them (and I did) from vifa for £30 a pair and they are lovely but large :smiley:.
I use a starsound amp, which is identical to a certain model of atomic amp but 1/3 of the price. Starsound do this a lot, as mentioned by someone above, you pay for the name. I know though that if I heard the Atomic version of my amp it would sound a lot better even though I know its exactly the same:smiley:
who are you on TA BTW?
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^^^
This man speaks the truth. It's exactly the same case for televisions, and many many other products across the board.
what the hell do u know, really? :grin: :grin:
More than you or anyone else would give me credit for. :wink:
:undecided: :laugh:
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Here is said kicker sub, it's prob last years but for 40quid it'll keep me happy fo a while, well until the bug for it all really bites again! :)
Who'd of thought my little thread would turn into a clash of the brands! Lol :) look fwd to Reading more later, it's hard work on an iPhone!!
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab269/mark3gti/1267815860.jpg)
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one of my better friends is a incar audio installer so it was fitted and set up right :rolleyes: and i got the rainbows and focals at a snip :)
If your friend is a real pro installer, have a word with him about the JBL driver models i stated originally, If he knows his stuff then he will tell you how not all JBL caraudio is junk as you keep saying it is.
From your statment above you seemed to assumed from when i said "As for the other parts i did say install and tuning if you don't understand these last two points (and few people do to the extent i meen) and the transfer function of the cars interior your basically pissing in the wind." you seemed to think i ment fitted in a door and level setup, it does not. Install and tuning is much more than that, as a start, ask your friend about baffle diffraction, Comb filtering, grill diffraction, off angle responce, pathlength differences, head related transfer function, cabin gain, cabin transfer function....
dude... dress it up how you like.. JBL v Rainbow and focal in my car with the same set up for each. all of which was set up by the same installers who sell all 3 brands (so no favoritism on their part), the JBLs were poop. they are what they are, and thats not high class.. im pretty shocked your even classing them as good :grin:
and i am a JBL fan at heart, so its not like im a hater, its quite the oppersite in fact, been rocking them in my studio for over 10 years without fail, LOVE them, just not their car audio, cheep unreliable....and made in china i guess
proof i rock JBL at home!
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6884/sv202712.jpg) (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/sv202712.jpg/)
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dude... dress it up how you like.. JBL v Rainbow and focal in my car with the same set up for each. all of which was set up by the same installers who sell all 3 brands (so no favoritism on their part), the JBLs were poop. they are what they are, and thats not high class.. im pretty shocked your even classing them as good :grin:
Im not even going to go there as you have not understood what i have said so far. Theres so much wrong with that statment for comparing A to B to X in a scientific manner.... Not to even touch the sticky subject of financial/margin reason. As i said try asking your 'friend' about the JBL models i quoted and the topics i said, you may actually learn something, thats if he even knows. :grin:
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he knows matey.. oh he knows.. such a shame you dont really but lets leave it their. i know what i like the sound of, music is my thing matey.. its what i do! im not sure what style music you are listening to via your JBL set up? but i play Techno, house and electro
i have these in my front doors and they are the best iv heard for my music styles, so clear..
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RAINBOW-CS-265-25-GERMANIUM-NEW-6-5-COMPONENT-SPEAKERS_W0QQitemZ120536650855QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_Speakers?hash=item1c108b5467
i cant remember the model of the last JBL comps that were in the car but they really were pants(but loud)
and the ones my mate has in his mk4 standard doors sound worse than the factory speakers which were in the same door!
you like JBL car audio, i dont and much prefere my rainbow and focal speakers
we should leave it at that me thinks :wink:
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he knows matey.. oh he knows.. such a shame you dont really but lets leave it their. i know what i like the sound of, music is my thing matey.. its what i do! im not sure what style music you are listening to via your JBL set up? but i play Techno, house and electro
From experience its the people who are involved with sound who are easy fooled by the marketing guys because they don't understand the engineering behind it all (been there and done it too them in my previous job :evil:) ignorance is bliss to some, im a electronic and mechanical design engineer by trade so i know what makes a difference and what does not. As i said lookup the models i talked about (im sure you have not from your responces as you keep saying ALL JBL caraudio is junk). Research people like Andy Wehmeyer(JBL), Gary Biggs(JBL), Mark Eldridge(ex JBL), Doug winkler(JBL acoustic engineer, so many audio patens to his name). As i said reserach the subjects i talked about too, you may find the subjects usefull in your job.
As for my own speakers im not using JBL not because there junk but because the 660GTIs were not out when i got mine.(There a name you probably not heard of). Amps again not JBL not because ther junk but because the space i had available the JBLs at the time would not have fitted but i would happily use JBL amps if i had the space. JBL do have a processor in the works i want to try out though., But what i use is not the point. The point i was trying to get across was to show your statment ALL jbl caraudio was junk was actually false.
On the subject of speakers and electronics. Others can stick with there 'exotic branded' high markup generic off the shelf non linear motor designs with cheap ass cones, and your marketing hyped up exotic 'superior' products both accoustic and electronic. I will go with Engineering, superior install techniques and tuning over marketing anyday.
May i ask the name of your 'friend' as i may know him as there is a few people involved with caraudio that do actually know the things i was talking about and the ones that do i normally know, or know of.
As you said lets leave it there as we are simply going round the same stuff over and over again. I will shut the f**k up now on this thread :lipsrsealed:
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On the subject of speakers and electronics. Others can stick with there 'exotic branded' high markup generic off the shelf non linear motor designs with cheap ass cones, and your marketing hyped up exotic 'superior' products both accoustic and electronic. I will go with Engineering, superior install techniques and tuning over marketing anyday.
i really dont see how you can say Rainbow are classed as this, hand made in germany with certificates???? have you ever owned raindow gear, even has the guys signature on the box and name who made them.. i like that. just a class above, not only the sound but all so the build quality, i would argue that the JBL stuff is generic "off the shelf" as you say, and i bet your bottom doller its made in the far east in massive numbers.
my mate is called donney mckenzie, from leeds, he has worked all over, he worked at unicar in leeds and a number of ohter places, he is the one that introduced me to focal then rainbow, but he is the type of guy that dont care, he is soooo laid back and if you met him you would know that he did not and would not try cloud mine or anyones mind.. i really am going by my own exp and those of people i know. maybe its my style of music which is why i ask what you listen to?
and just to finish, i only ever use american amps, loved the original PNCH series, and the early Xtants, also like the Pheonix gold amp i have now, its got some right punch!!!
Don gave me (yes gave me) a BIG Kenwood recently, now im not usually a fan of kenwood car audio as i see it as a bit of a market label as you say but this amp is immense, cant remember the model number without looking but it sounds good and is very loud, it has 2 seperate amps built into one shell.. i do rate it¬
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i really dont see how you can say Rainbow are classed as this, hand made in germany with certificates???? have you ever owned raindow gear,
Please read my previous posts about myself and rainbow i know the company very very well and know who started it and why.
Don gave me (yes gave me) a BIG Kenwood recently, now im not usually a fan of kenwood car audio as i see it as a bit of a market label as you say but this amp is immense, cant remember the model number without looking but it sounds good and is very loud, it has 2 seperate amps built into one shell.. i do rate it¬
If its from 1990 or older, square and black thats a KAC-1020 around 1990 to 1993, square and black that would be a KAC-1021. from 1993,oblong and white that will be a KAC-1023. I have been round caraudio a while :grin:
Anyway i said i would shut up so this is my last and final post on this thread.
:lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
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then you should know rainbow are not of the shelf so to speak..
anyhow before you go let me just nip outside and look at model number of this amp, im currently using it in place of my pheonix gold, at first i didnt think it sounded as nice as the PG, still not sure but man its loud and does sound pretty decent for kenwood.. id like to hear your views on it
this is it, he gave me this for FREE!!
http://www.kenwood-electronics.co.uk/products/car/amplifiers/KAC-8452/details/
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Last post then :smiley:
As i said its an off the shelf generic motor design they use. Nothing special and not optomised.
The amp, sorry i misunderstood you when you said two amps in one case when people normally say that they meen two mono amps in one case.
An Amplifiers 'sound', Its probably not a good idea to get me started on that one i don't have time for the argument that im sure this will start. :grin: and you seem to not have grasp what i have said so far and this is alot more indepth.
Amplifiers are an electronic device. The human hearing system is not that acurate to distinguise between very small differences listening to music when an amplifier is used in its linear range. Yes you can measure component differences on the bench but can the human ear/brain hear them with music? from the scientific data I used to have to work from and read about not until certain high levels of difference are achieved because of the ear brain system is not that accurate!. But thats a large can of worms topic in the audio world because everyones been blinded by marketing. :wink: I can hear the responces now :grin:
In electronics we think of an amplifier as a linear system so unless one of the following is different or not within known human brain/ear tolerances as a designer you can ignore any difference as the end user will not hear one when the amplifier is used below clipping in its linear range playing music. Linear system theory dictates that the following,
Gain, Power, Frequency responce(magnitude and phase), noise, input and output impedance, distortion, chanell seperation dictate the sound of an amplifer device. If these measure the same within certain human ear/brain tolerances the two devices will sound the same playing music.
Some of the tolerances i remember off the top of my head are channel seperation greater than 30dB from 20Hz-20kHz. (don't know an amp that does not do this). Noise (noise floor, on/off pops due to dc offset etc), Gain (channels matched within +-0.05dB), Distortion (2% THD 20hz-20Khz (with music))
So your probably shouting at the screen now saying you hear a difference right?[/ :grin:
Let me tell you why. One of the criteria for a linear system is different between the two amps you have tried.
You can either hear a level change/a power change (most likley cause is as 0.25dB makes people think that one sounds better(oldest trick in the book :evil:)
It might have a different frequency responce. (bass boost etc). FR can tamed with a good eq.
Noise floor (hiss) on/off pops etc.
Gain. It may have more gain on one channel than another or a channel phase inverted, were the other amp does not.
Power it may have more power below clipping/distortion.
Input and output impedance is effecting the amps output frequency responce (its what tube amps do :wink:)
Best way to think about it is why do amplifier manufactueres only test certain criteria at the end of a production line :wink: were as audiophiles say this and that make a difference? Marketing men often dictate to designers what parts they want using because they have a certain following, a certain brand of wire, certain brand opamps, etc not because theres actually a engineering reason for them but because it helps the marketing men sell! :wink:
Better reasons to buy one brand over another is Build quality, aftersales service, resale value, image(the type the brand gives you not the audio kind :grin:), reliability.
Anyway i hear EVERYONE now screeming at there screen saying im an idiot and know nothing. :grin:
I should now really stop before i get linched :grin:
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im no expert on amps dude i just wondered what you thought of the one i posted, if you are familiar with it that is? i wasnt looking to argue about amps what so ever
on a side not do you know of a brand called CROWN for club instaltions, i have one of these in the studio, its the american version before they sold out and build in china!! the amp was re built by stan at surry amps (http://www.surreyamps.co.uk/) to a very very high standard and im sorry but it just sounds superb against the old qsc i ran, im not sur ei totally understand all you have said which im sure is true, but each manufacturer of amps does have a different sound, and im not talking about loudness if that makes sense?
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I have no experience with that model kenwood, I stopped running kenwoods in around 95.
Yes, I know crown, The reason it sounds different is because one of the criteria of a linear system has been changed when it was altered to a level that changes the way the human ear/brain system hear it, thats all manufacturer designers do :wink:
Anyway i think that concludes this discussion Im leaving the thread before the audiophile linch mob arrives :grin:
I must shut up now on this thread. BYE! :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed: :lipsrsealed:
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Crown stuff is fantastic - sublime even. I use Crown Macrotech Reference stuff when I'm in studios (usually matched to ATC SCM300s or BIG Genelecs) - not heard many of the club systems though...
Will have to go and have a listen :smiley:
Dan
PS good call on the Control 5s :cool: I got 3 pairs dotted around the house :wink:
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hehe yeah i have had the control 5's for about 10 years they are fantastic!
im using a Crown powertech 3 fully rebuilt and calibrated by stan at surry amps, it is amazingly good!, you hit the nail on the head with your reference to the brand, the macrotech stuff is awesome too. such a quality brand. the amp i have at home (the powertech 3) is a club amp, (rack mount) and i used to use it for my illegal events years ago, never let us down and always did what it needed to.. i do love Crown. :cool: