GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: BA Baracus on 01 January 2010, 08:59
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Well that is the updated new car prices on the Volkswagen website and it has to be said that the increases for all Golf models is significant.
A few quid below £25,000 for a base GTI is ridiculous. :sick:
I am a VW fan-boy by this is just daft.
Note to VW - we are still in a recession and money is tight.
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I was in the dealers the other day and they had a nice looking new Polo in the showroom. It was seventeen and a half bloody grand :shocked: :shocked:
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:shocked: Glad we placed an order when we did then, as I can't see you getting much discount at the moment, with the current supply issues.
New Price for my spec £25,815 as oppossed to £23,945 (a small discount that we bargined for) thats nearly £2k more!
Got to be good for residuals though :grin:
Dave
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When i got my Mk6 in Sep 09 the list price was 26K the same spec is now 28K :shocked:
All new cars are getting silly expensive but for the same car to leap by 2K seems unjustified in my view, cars should get cheaper as production increases!
Btw the one which shocked me most was the new Astra in Sri spec at 24K :grin:
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People will not not buy them, well not as many anyhow, there are loads of used gti's on vw website, they cannot sell them very easy, wait 6-9 months you will get them for 21k (brand new)
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All new cars are getting silly expensive but for the same car to leap by 2K seems unjustified in my view, cars should get cheaper as production increases!
They are in euros! But with the sterling sinking and VAT going up what do you expect?? I've seen reports that VW are losing money in the UK due to exchange rate. Expect more price increases. Next one - traditionaly March...
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They'll lose even more money in the UK with those prices since nobody'll be able to afford them anymore!!!
If I keep my GTi 4 years that means I've got 3 and a half years before I buy another - God only knows how much it'll be by then!!!! And this is VW's dilemma. Even though I love my car I'll be forced to buy another brand as I won't be able to afford another GTi. And I won't be the only one so they'll be losing customers.
When I bought mine last July I got a discount of the then price but even then I was right at my limit, not just of what I could afford but also what I was prepared to pay for a VW. When you begin to charge £25k for a basic GTi you're just going to force people into the prestige brands. Or alternatively save £5k and buy some fast Ford, Vauxhall etc.
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Happy new year!
I feel very lucky that I bought my car just at the right time! The price of new car is shocking. Who will spend more than 20 grand for a ford or vauxhall??
I think VW group use the exchange rate and right hand drive as an excuse to put up prices! They learn a few dirty trick from Porsche!
My father bought a Mk6 golf GTI in Hong Kong as a pressie for my mum yesterday
1. Delivery promise to be end of april 2010
2. Cost £26000 (no discount) which inc. carbon grey metallic, 5 year warranty, 1st year reg., DSG, leather seats, park sensors with camera, sunroof etc..
Hong Kong custom charge 100% tax for importing cars and there is only one VW dealer. Their overheads is high as it is expensive to rent any property in HK.
Steering wheel in Hong Kong is also on the right side. Thay need to ship the car from Germany!
If VW is losing money in UK, I think their MD should be fired!
Just read something the government is planning to lower the motorway speed limit to 60mph and put up more digital camera from Autocar, now that is even more depressing for car lovers like us!
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The new car prices are a bit much, i thought the dealer was talkin rubbish when he said months ago that VW normally have an increase in January each year..... and the 2.5% VAT doesn't help much either
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
:grin:
As one smartass from Ford said commenting 12% (!) price increase in 2009: better to sell one car with profit then a hundred at a loss.
Besides, there is a post from a guy in Norway who's paying £48000 for a GTI, so it's all relative in the end...
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Just seen to get the gti I ordered in July for £29k and cancelled in October now retails at £33k ouch and whoops.
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Never thought I'd say this but I'm glad I ordered when I did (Oct)! My spec is now over £29K ouch!
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More bad news for your wallets as fuel is set to be on the increase to 125p a litre.
Check this link.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/6913056/Petrol-prices-to-increase-by-15p-over-2010.html
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Oh well..with all this doom and gloom I guess it's time to dust off the old pushbike :rolleyes:
And with these price increases perhaps I will own a Golf R in about 7 years :grin:
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I posted this in another thread. Germany is Europe's biggest car market and the scrapage schemes in alot of countries are coming to an end now. So I think this year is going to be very tough year for car companys.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5071409,00.html
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I agree the prices are getting silly.
It's not just VW though. A mate of mine at work recently bought a new Ford Fiesta diesel. It was a top spec Titanium but only has the 1.4 diesel donkey in it (which he says is too slow).
£15,000 he paid (list was £15,800).
What's funnier is that he ordered it in white because he was too tight to pay for metallic.
£15K FOR A FIESTA DIESEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I just specced a polo that would cost £21070
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I dont now what to do? Laugh or cry :grin: :cry:
(http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu69/cheethama/Picture9.png)
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that is shocking !!
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I just specced a polo that would cost £21070
That's amazing! No wonder they say they expect the Polo to capture a lot of Golf sales, that's top spec Golf money to my eyes. I had an outgoing model Polo GTI 1.8T for a while. Great little car (with REVO) but considering it had all the factory extras except leather I thought that was expensive new at just over £17k. I got it 10 months old direct from VW for under £12k. The world has gone mad.
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I bought a 6 mth old Mk5 R32 in July 07 for £25k
It was fully loaded with every option possible and i also had the original invoice in with the service book and that was for £34k
and that was back in Aug 06 ?
So are the New Rs and gti,s that much more expensive 3+ years on ?
I also paid £25.5k for a new Gti in 05 ?
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^^^^ i payed £19995 basic price+ £145 for center armrest and highline computer in 05, so basic for basic its gone up around 20% for basically a facelift. i think a fair price to start at is 22k for basic.
I payed £23745 basic price + around 2k for leather,paint and center armrest for a R32 plus in december 05. So basic for basic its gone up around 25% for a engine that sounds like a sewing machine in comparision. I think a fair price to start at for the R is £26k.
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^^^^ i payed £19995 basic price+ £145 for center armrest and highline computer in 05, so basic for basic its gone up around 20% for basically a facelift. i think a fair price to start at is 22k for basic.
I payed £23745 basic price + around 2k for leather,paint and center armrest for a R32 plus in december 05. So basic for basic its gone up around 25% for a engine that sounds like a sewing machine in comparision. I think a fair price to start at for the R is £26k.
fair comment looking at it that way it is 2-3k overpriced,
but people will still buy them, maybe not as many but Vw will prob still make as much profit and residuals should be good if there are not as many about ?
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it depends really, all us in mk6 section would pay a bit more for a mk6 but we prob dont even account for 1% of gti owners or potential owners so only time will tell with wage cuts/freezes etc. I have always brought brand new gtis/R32s in last 5 years but the more i look at the price of the mk6 a good secondhand mk5 looks more atractive now as i never really had that option before because the massive difference perfomance/handling wise between the mk4 + mk5.
I honestly don't think Vw are selling many gtis in this country and don't really plan to for the mk6 as they are more interested in knocking out loads of lower spec models as that is their bread and butter in this climate especialy with scrappage scheme hence all the delays in mk6 gti deliveries.
The mk6 gti has been out now 8 months and ive only seen 4 on the road. Times have change drastically since the introduction of the mk5 gti and people vote with their wallet.
P.s i still might end up with a golf R :laugh:
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I honestly don't think Vw are selling many gtis in this country and don't really plan to for the mk6 as they are more interested in knocking out loads of lower spec models as that is their bread and butter in this climate especialy with scrappage scheme hence all the delays in mk6 gti deliveries.
The mk6 gti has been out now 8 months and ive only seen 4 on the road. Times have change drastically since the introduction of the mk5 gti and people vote with their wallet.
Wrong!
VW's plan was to sell 2 GTIs per dealership per month. The long waiting list from August tells me they've done it. There are many ways to make money: sell a lot of cheap cars and hope to make profit because of numbers or sell fewer but with decent profit. UK has become an expensive market to sell from mainland Europe due to exchange rate, face it. And it's not going to change anytime soon. When the sterling falls below euro you'll see more price increases not just from VW. QE... Worked in Zimbabwe, why wouldn't it work here?:)
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Do you really think their is as much demand for a mk6 gti as their was a mk5 gti? They can raise them all they want but a lot of people who purchased a mk5 gti wont be upgrading to a mk6 gti and thats what mk6 gti owners are paying for as well as exchange rate. Like i said times have changed and no i havent got to face it i can choose not to put my money in a brand new VW
They do all that 2 cars per dealership crap when ever they launch a new model, 1 year from now and you will see them at car supermarkets.
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Towards the end of the Mk 5's run there were loads of Mk 5 GTis at Motorpoint at vastly reduced prices e.g. leather and 18 inch Monza clad ones for less than £20k brand new. Admittedly they were impoorts but that wouldn't have bothered me. I would have bought one if I'd had the money at the time.
I suspect that (or a demonstrator/nearly new one) is the only way I'll be able to afford one in the future.
And since you could get an aftermarket RNS 510, Fiscon and Xenons fitted for less than £1500 yourself (and that's at an ICE shop and not buying stuff online and fitting stuff yourself, in which case it'd be even cheaper) you may as well trot off to Motorpoint in 3 years time when there are loads of base MK 6 GTis and do the rest yourself.
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Their are already high spec gtd's at a car supermarket, cant think of the name at mo, will find later
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Towards the end of the Mk 5's run there were loads of Mk 5 GTis at Motorpoint at vastly reduced prices e.g. leather and 18 inch Monza clad ones for less than £20k brand new. Admittedly they were impoorts but that wouldn't have bothered me. I would have bought one if I'd had the money at the time.
I suspect that (or a demonstrator/nearly new one) is the only way I'll be able to afford one in the future.
And since you could get an aftermarket RNS 510, Fiscon and Xenons fitted for less than £1500 yourself (and that's at an ICE shop and not buying stuff online and fitting stuff yourself, in which case it'd be even cheaper) you may as well trot off to Motorpoint in 3 years time when there are loads of base MK 6 GTis and do the rest yourself.
That's why I went for a base spec ex demo mk6. No point in buying up a specced up second hand one from a dealer and paying 'new' prices. Much easier to pay second hand price for the car (saved nearly £3k) and add whatever extras after, not that I'm that bothered about adding any really as the car does everything pretty well as standard.
I'll probably be going for a Polo or maybe heading back to SEAT next car change depending on what's about at the time.
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From my point of view anyway - At 20 - 25 K the GTI had the market sewn up as as it was a great car which was within the reach of a lot of people cost wise. Now pushing the GTI into the 26 - 35 K bracket opens a can of worms as i think that it is starting to become too expensive for a lot of people and the ones who can afford it have a massive list of great cars to choose from in that price band.
At Mk 5 prices the golf was the only choice for a fast well made hatch with a great image. Not any more................well not at these prices anyway.
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I agree as I stated in my first post on this thread. At £25k upwards I'd be going to the BMW garage!!
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I agree as I stated in my first post on this thread. At £25k upwards I'd be going to the BMW garage!!
don't do it my friend...
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It's three and a half years away yet so there's plenty of time for things to change. But you get my drift?
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VW are moving things on though so it would make sense the prices will rise. The quality and build is better than some bmw's i have been in!
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It's funny the way some of you lot go on about prices - it's 2010, not 2005. Anyway, those of you who have bought more than one new car in the last five years have probably lost far more in depreciation than the £1500 extra a new GTI will cost now compared to last summer. If you're that worried about money, try keeping your car for more than 30% of its design life.
I agree as I stated in my first post on this thread. At £25k upwards I'd be going to the BMW garage!!
Where a 3 door 1 series diesel will cost you £24K.
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wow. My car and spec is now £29,610 :shocked:
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The prices People are paying though,
have gone up a lot more than £1500 (as most people were getting big discounts off list in the summer)
you'll still get 9-10% off list on a new 30k Beemer.
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Just reconfigured mine i paid £26840.00 in August
and now the same car is £29805.00 :shocked: :shocked:
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I wouldn't be buying a 1 series diesel. They're horrible.
I'd be buying something with 6 cylinders and beginning with 3 at least. Maybe a year old maximum. I nearly bought a 3 series coupe before I got my GTi and it was a lovely car. Totally different in character obviously, but lovely nevertheless.
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Wow,
It looks like the UK is a good country to be squeeze to the last penny.
In France, overall the increase is 1k£, but charging an extra 3k£ is an absolute rip off. Damn :sick:
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When the new 1 series comes out soon (2010/2011) it will not cost 25k but a lot more...
You all talk sense but don't expect the car manufacturers to lose money and selling a GTI at £25k could mean that. You'll see the same horrible prices when every new car comes out.
There are places in Europe where mk6 is actually cheaper in local currency then mk5 was. Again, exchange rate...
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The new prices and waiting times are painful at the moment..
I always phone around near the end of the month and just try to get a car similar to what I'm after and hopefully a garage that is willing to do a deal, I just bought mine from a VW dealer for 1k less than a standard 5dr DSG car based on todays price!
I know its not for everyone as its always nice to spec a car exactly as you want it but to me it reduces the amount of money I lose on each car!
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How do you think this will affect used as mine has increased list price to over £31,000 where as I paid around £28k 4 months ago. Ist here really a waiting list as if I can get even close to £27,000 then I would sell mine as I want an RS6.
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^^^^ nothing mate their are 2 same spec, 59 reg 4k miles just under 26k on vw used website, id be looking to get 1-2k off them aswell
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Carl,
How long did you have yours for & if you don't mind me asking, did you lose much on it?
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i had mine from May 29th, i paid 22k cash and i sold it for 21k end of August, it was 5dr parking sensors and monza shadows. I got offered £750 more the night before i sold it but im a man of my word as i agreed a price with someone who was traveling down from Scotland the next day.
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In 2005 the exchange rate was hovering around the 1.4 euros per Pound mark and now the exchange rate is 20% less, so going on that basis there has only been a price increase in line with the exchange rates. :undecided:
£37k for a Golf is pushing the limits, but one I'd rather pay over going to a BMW dealership :laugh:
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Its just coming to a point in this country where working class people like me cannot afford to buy a brand new motor. If it carrys on like this entry level models are going to cost 18k and generally people who like a new car every 2/3 years but are not that interested about performance etc are going to say sod that ill hang on on to the one ive got. The car market could be changing for ever in this country
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^^ Which might lead to a resurgence in the British manufacturing industry and 'home grown' cars like the mighty austin will be de riguer again :lipsrsealed:
:grin: :grin:
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Its just coming to a point in this country where working class people like me cannot afford to buy a brand new motor. If it carrys on like this entry level models are going to cost 18k and generally people who like a new car every 2/3 years but are not that interested about performance etc are going to say sod that ill hang on on to the one ive got. The car market could be changing for ever in this country
I'll go along with that.
There is no real need to buy a new car every 2-3 years. You take a huge hit in depreciation only to get another car that does exactly the same job when there's nothing wrong with the old one. When I spend £25,000 on a new car, I want to keep it at least 5 years and get my monies worth out of it. That way it also gives me more time to save for something a little better next time.
I suppose if people are buying them on the drip, real cost of ownership dosn't really figure. It's the monthly payments, and having some equity to roll into the next car that count. I can't be doing with the constant burden of monthly payments to have to find, so if the prices get too high, I'll just have to wait a bit longer.
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Its just coming to a point in this country where working class people like me cannot afford to buy a brand new motor. If it carrys on like this entry level models are going to cost 18k and generally people who like a new car every 2/3 years but are not that interested about performance etc are going to say sod that ill hang on on to the one ive got. The car market could be changing for ever in this country
That's the way things used to be. My Dad only got a new car every 3 years as he was a sales rep and used to kill a car in 3 years. The new car every 3 years was only the preserve of the minted until the cheap credit turned up and everyone was getting a new car on the never never.
I generally have a new car every year, but a car that's new to me, not actually brand new. I love the smell and feeling of a new car (bought one once) and while it was great there is no way unless I won the lottery I would ever buy another brand new car.
Nick
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I generally buy new...but keep them at least 4 years (normally) so I deliberate long and hard about what I want, what options i'll pay for, and to some degree if it'll be worth anything at the end of 4 years...and then get the 'perfect' car at the time.
I've not bought a car I've regretted yet.
It's my only real vice...so I'll justify it be being away from home for half my life working...
If it costs £30,000 and I can afford to pay for it, and want it...I'll pay it.
If it costs £40,000 and I can afford to pay for it, and want it...I'll pay it.
Sadly, VW bank on people with exactly that mentality buying their cars...
I can't get hung up on depreciation - if I/we did, we'd all run bangers.
I'll buy the car I want, in the colour I want, with the optiions I want...and if it happens to be £39000 for a 'VW Golf' then so be it.
The prices are stupid for modern cars. Not just VWs.
You can buy an S3 for considerably less than the cost of a Golf R - in the same spec. But I don't want one of those.
You can buy a Focus/Megane in a similar spec to a GTI fow considerably less coin. I don't want either of those either.
So what do we do?
Moan about it, allocate a larger % of the wages than ever before, add far too many options, sit on a waiting list for many months whinging about it...but buy it anyway.
VW are clever. :drool:
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You're right Ess Three, VW are clever. But like I said before there is a limit to the "value" of the VW badge.
Just look at the Phaeton. Great car apparently but nobody in their right mind is going to spend £40k or whatever on a VW when there are Jags, Mercs etc. at the same price which have a badge befitting the outlay.
VW are indeed clever but they will eventually start to lose buyers (certainly in this country) where most people spending £25k upwards will opt for a prestige badge. The VW badge just isn't prestigous enough to compete at those levels.
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After all my moaning about the prices, dont be surprised if i end up with a new R, i just cant help myself. Which goes along with what Ess three is saying. Im just dreading the missis driving it :smiley: :cry:
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Im just dreading the missis driving it :smiley: :cry:
Hide the keys :wink:
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Im just dreading the missis driving it :smiley: :cry:
[/quote]
Chauvinist!!! :angry: Some of us gals are bloody good drivers!!
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The VW badge just isn't prestigous enough to compete at those levels.
Not yet true, but they try hard to position themselves there. VW are the new Audi (upper market) , Skoda/SEAT the new VW (mass market) and Audi should be very top, luxury brand.
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Just wondering, am I alone in thinking that I would much prefer to be driving a VW to an Audi nowdays? Having had 5 new Audi's over the last 10 yrs, they are now far too flash for my liking...
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Dear GTI fans and friends,
The sense of anger and annoyances at VW's price rises is totally reasonable and understandable. But don't panic. These prices aren't sustainable.
The simple laws of supply and demand mean that the number of people wanting to buy VWs at these prices will shrink dramatically. Buyers will simply look elsewhere. Of course, in the short term, most manufacturers will raise prices not least because of the VAT increase. The aggregate effect will cause buyers everywhere to hesitate and there is a very good chance that the new car market will stall if not collapse completely in the short term. When manufacturers start feeling the pain (March), they will have to reduce prices and a price war will begin. Discounts will abound.
In one sense, most manufacturers know that a price war is looming so are raising prices now so that future discounts are perceived to be greater than they actually are. Whatever, VW will have to lower prices or risk losing market share. And they won't want to do that. Moreover, the economy is still in a very fragile state of recovery, so reduced demand may force the Government to offer a second round of incentives for people to trade in old cars. (After all, if people don't buy new cars, then there'll be no one to pay 125p a gallon for petrol.)
So, the best advice to all of you wanting a GTI and who haven't yet ordered one is DO NOT BUY NOW. WAIT.
Your patience will be rewarded. Trust me, i read Economics at Cambridge!
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But don't panic. These prices aren't sustainable.
The simple laws of supply and demand mean that the number of people wanting to buy VWs at these prices will shrink dramatically. Buyers will simply look elsewhere.
For run-of-the-mill models maybe, but VW have addressed the low demand issue for the more desirable GTI and R by limiting supply. Secondly, the manufacturers and supply chain are stabilising at a new lower level of production and in doing so will require higher margins in order to maintain profit/unit. And the dealers, whos overheads are going up, not down, will also want to maximise margins. So I'd anticipate prices remaining high and maybe even going higher with little desire for discounting, particularly on the desirable models.
I agree the private buyer market in general will stall in the next few months but (though reduced) the fleet market will remain healthy.
At 125p/gallon, it is in the treasury's interests for us to drive less economical cars :grin: but I'm sure the governments CO2 target trumps that issue...
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Hi Hawk, I agee with you, I would not drive an Audi in a million years.
It looks like the graal for the average working class...which I am part of.
However, I feel uncomfortable in an Audi...too "m'as tu vu"
The GTI is a myth and is all about a dream car. A3 is overrated.
Now speaking of which, discounts will be probably higher during spring as per VW dealer I spoke with.
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People will not not buy them, well not as many anyhow, there are loads of used gti's on vw website, they cannot sell them very easy, wait 6-9 months you will get them for 21k (brand new)
Its funny but i was speaking to a few people in the trade the past week, some of who work at the local VW dealership, and they were all saying exactly the same. I was telling them about my hassle with my current dealer and VW and they all said cancel and wait 6 months as i would have the pick of cars at any dealership.
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After all my moaning about the prices, dont be surprised if i end up with a new R, i just cant help myself. Which goes along with what Ess three is saying. Im just dreading the missis driving it :smiley: :cry:
Sadly, if my dealer tells me they can get me an R...and I won't have to wait a year for it...I'll find myself coming over all silly and signing up! I'll not be able to resist. I'll try...and fail.
*Must resist*....Ah sod it...i'll have one.
I must be the sort of fool VW love to see coming into their showrooms!
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^^^^ its got to be available straight away for me. So im banking on one popping up for sale somewere, which im pretty confident they will, if not i wont order one it gives me too much time for me to think "$hit what have i done im about to blow 30k+ on a car"
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^^^^ its got to be available straight away for me. So im banking on one popping up for sale somewere, which im pretty confident they will, if not i wont order one it gives me too much time for me to think "$hit what have i done im about to blow 30k+ on a car"
Just heard back from my local dealer...he's suggesting June/July as a best estimate - but it will likely go backwards...
Oh, and a price of £37500 as near as damn it, for the spec I'd want.
Gulp.
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^^^^ its got to be available straight away for me. So im banking on one popping up for sale somewere, which im pretty confident they will, if not i wont order one it gives me too much time for me to think "$hit what have i done im about to blow 30k+ on a car"
Just heard back from my local dealer...he's suggesting June/July as a best estimate - but it will likely go backwards...
Oh, and a price of £37500 as near as damn it, for the spec I'd want.
Gulp.
I almost projected a mouthful of tea over my laptop screen....... £37500!!!!!
I was looking at the GTD/GTi. I might just get my self a push bike for now until either VW reduce these ridiculous prices or until they realise that people wont pay this kind of money and go for an ex demo.
This price hike is defiantly going to put the brakes on people parting with their hard earned dosh!
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...another thought:
A 'nice' spec GTI ordered in August (no Leather, Sat Nav or DSG but plenty of other options) will now cost you £2160 more of your hard earned coin, if ordered today.
Nearly £2200 in just over 4 months...WTF is going on?
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I almost projected a mouthful of tea over my laptop screen....... £37500!!!!!
I was looking at the GTD/GTi. I might just get my self a push bike for now until either VW reduce these ridiculous prices or until they realise that people wont pay this kind of money and go for an ex demo.
This price hike is defiantly going to put the brakes on people parting with their hard earned dosh!
I doubt it will...
Look at the waiting list for the GTI...
Speak to dealers about getting an R.
People are queuing round the block to order them...my local dealer has never had so many people wanting high spec Golfs.
Back to the R...looks like there won't be any demo cars...so there will be few bargains to be had there.
And if I had to wait 6-8 months for a car...I'd sure as hell not be selling it a few months later just to do somebody else a favour.
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The local GTi demo's I've seen go for the list price of a new car.
My local [and crap] dealer now has 2 x 59 GTi's that they reckon they already have a queue of people ready to buy. Dud 'dealer speak' maybe but in this current climate, who know's.
Ava
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For run-of-the-mill models maybe, but VW have addressed the low demand issue for the more desirable GTI and R by limiting supply. Secondly, the manufacturers and supply chain are stabilising at a new lower level of production and in doing so will require higher margins in order to maintain profit/unit. And the dealers, whos overheads are going up, not down, will also want to maximise margins. So I'd anticipate prices remaining high and maybe even going higher with little desire for discounting, particularly on the desirable models.
I agree the private buyer market in general will stall in the next few months but (though reduced) the fleet market will remain healthy.
At 125p/gallon, it is in the treasury's interests for us to drive less economical cars :grin: but I'm sure the governments CO2 target trumps that issue...
VW has only limited supply of premium models because it reduced production across the board. With every manufacturer blighted by the state of the economy, BMW, Mercedes and other premium competitors will be offering attractive deals on much more expensive cars. So if VW doesn't offer deals across the board, then once again it will lose market share. Customers will buy elsewhere. The biggest opportunities will be those looking for things like second-hand Porsches.
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The biggest opportunities will be those looking for things like second-hand Porsches.
Not true.
Porsche have sold extremely small numbers of new cars over the last 2 years (due the credit crunch). Consequently, used supply is extremely constrained. Therefore, used values have gone up considerably recently.
In the 6 months I was looking for a Porsche 911 (until I opted for the R), used prices went up over 10%.
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Not true.
Porsche have sold extremely small numbers of new cars over the last 2 years (due the credit crunch). Consequently, used supply is extremely constrained. Therefore, used values have gone up considerably recently.
In the 6 months I was looking for a Porsche 911 (until I opted for the R), used prices went up over 10%.
I'm not convinced it's due to lesser numbers - my local dealer has not noticed a slowing of new Porsche sales.
The announcement of 'big' road tax prices seemed to have confused the stupid into flogging off their £70000 cars cheap..instead of paying £400+ per year in road tax. Madness. Regardless, 996 and 997 prices fell through the floor overnight.
As you say though, they recovered...big time.
I recently sold my 2004 C4S and got £7000-8000 more than I'd have been offered 12 months earlier.
996s and 997s are still a bargain though, if people can accept the running costs....you may be able to find faster in a straight line, for less money...but I doubt it's possible to find a more involving car for the coin.
I loved mine...and convinced myself that I wanted something silly for the weekends, so sold my S3 and went C4S.
After 5 years, i've now decided I want something 'nice' to use everyday thats practical and fun...full circle.
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I'm not convinced it's due to lesser numbers - my local dealer has not noticed a slowing of new Porsche sales.
I was going on the SMMT new car sales numbers which show Porsche was one of the worst hit during the credit crunch.
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The only reason there are any sot of waiting lists for GTIs and Rs is purely down to volume of supply - they are no more popular than the MkVs were, in fact less so as lots of MkV owenrs aren't bothered about switching whereas the MkIV to V transition was worthwhile.
They talk about waiting lists but when i ordered in September there were three unsold cars on the forecourt and another in the showroom. When i collected in December there were 2 unsold cars in the showroom and two others round the back (status unknown).
When the price lists and motoring magazines catch up with their pricing data, there will be a lot of people sayign No to the Golf, of all varieties.
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There's one problem with your thinking - you assume that prices of other cars will not go up and therefore VW will look more expensive.
I doubt it.
Just wait for a new S3 and see how much they want for it...
Plus things are changing in the world. There's a new law in the EU setting tough CO2 limits on cars (130 g/km on avarage from 2012). Anything above it and the manufacturer pays 90 euros per gram per car! GTI: 40 x 90 = 3600 euros
This, as always, will be passed onto consumers in one way or another...
I wouldn't expect prices to come down. Not GTIs. Everyone is expecting new, lower level of production and sales to stay like that for a while. In this case higher margins may be better from their point of view.
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There's one problem with your thinking - you assume that prices of other cars will not go up and therefore VW will look more expensive.
I doubt it.
Just wait for a new S3 and see how much they want for it...
Plus things are changing in the world. There's a new law in the EU setting tough CO2 limits on cars (130 g/km on avarage from 2012). Anything above it and the manufacturer pays 90 euros per gram per car! GTI: 40 x 90 = 3600 euros
This, as always, will be passed onto consumers in one way or another...
I wouldn't expect prices to come down. Not GTIs. Everyone is expecting new, lower level of production and sales to stay like that for a while. In this case higher margins may be better from their point of view.
If you go back 11 years all new car prices were adjusted because they were at silly levels - i remeber paying best part of £30k for a BMW 323Ci at the time ! I can see the same happening again; afterall wages are not increasing, and if the economy does recovery then interest rates will increase resulting in mortgaged households having less disposable income. Car sales will fall - QED
what the manufacturers need to do is stop loading the cars full of stuff we don't really need.
Wonder how much a GTI with just a drivers airbag, basic air con, elec front windows, 17" wheels would cost ? Forget the other 5 airbags, the nicely trimmed boot, the auto wipers, auto lights, auto dim mirrors, heated mirros ,fogs etc - all stuff the auto companies have got us thinking over the years. The car would also be quicker and more economical without carting all that gubbins around.
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...indeed thay would.
But many people would simply load up on all the options as they didn't want to be without the "nice to have's" meaning the price would be back where it was before.
You'd never be able to sell a poverty spec car!
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For those of us who already got the MK6 GTI. The more price increase, the happier we are! :wink:
Less cars on the road = better residual!
Talking about Porsche, sold my Cayman S in 11/08 for £24000 with just 9000 miles on the odo. I saw a similar car with the same mileage at my local OPC retailing £33500. The days where if you can net a bargain sportscar had long gone.
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VW has only limited supply of premium models because it reduced production across the board. With every manufacturer blighted by the state of the economy, BMW, Mercedes and other premium competitors will be offering attractive deals on much more expensive cars. So if VW doesn't offer deals across the board, then once again it will lose market share.
Maximising market share is not the only strategy for a business to be successful and arguably not a good one in times of recession. Higher profit margin/unit brings greater benefit and fiscal stability. In recession, look upwards to those who still have money, rather than downwards to those that might not. Discounting de-values brand perception and should only be necessary in extremes or where unsold stocks need to be moved (good examples are the Passat and Tiguan). Let those who want a Golf for the price of a Kia go elsewhere and concentrate your effort on those who will pay (see VW's current TV ad). VW are well placed to take advantage of their perceived higher quality (note perceived, rather than actual) and position themselves closer to the premium market in terms of selling price. This is where they will find most customers - not only those who want to spend their money on what they imagine to be the best, longest lasting product, but also those considering downsizing for reasons such as cost, enviromental concern and peer pressure. Many badge-concious buyers coming from a BMW or Audi will accept a VW badge better than Vauxhall or Ford, regardless of how good those cars actually are (and they are very good) and generally have more money to spend.
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Here's a thought. Perhaps VAG being a multi national billion £ company who empleo 10's of thousands of people may know a thing or two about marketing and pricing of cars than people who post on an internet forum?
nick
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Im sure this increase will come down to the price of metal and components which in turn will be attached to exchange rates. I would be very surprised if this increase was just to maximise profit to the VW group in a time of recession. I may be wrong though.
VW cars especially top end models are heading towards a price out with affordability for the majority of private buys. If I did not just beat the price increase for the GTI I’m not sure I would have ordered one
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I would like to buy a new Roller but I cant afford one. I, like everyone else have to 'cut their cloth' accordingly.
If you cant afford a new Golf or new --------, its OK, buy something else and stop wasting time your worrying about it. I know some pretty well off people and we are all in the same position, we all have a budget, whoever wealthly.
I know a guy who sold his company a couple of years ago for £11 million. He recently brought a 10 month old ex-fleet (VAG) Q7 TDI 4.2 for £40200 because he felt the £59k for a new one was too rich. We all pay what we can justify, if you cant justify and pay the price of a new Golf dont bloody buy one and dont bloody moan about it!
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Here's a thought. Perhaps VAG being a multi national billion £ company who empleo 10's of thousands of people may know a thing or two about marketing and pricing of cars than people who post on an internet forum?
nick
lol .....I agree with that!
BUT there is an expert on this website who "read economics at Cambridge!"
:grin:
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lol .....I agree with that!
BUT there is an expert on this website who "read economics at Cambridge!"
:grin:
Just to be clear, it was Tailpipe who said he had was at Cambridge. I just like arguing debating with people. :grin:
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:wink: :grin:
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Here's a thought. Perhaps VAG being a multi national billion £ company who empleo 10's of thousands of people may know a thing or two about marketing and pricing of cars than people who post on an internet forum?
nick
So were Lehman Bros and TSB...
But I agree with you. VW know how to make money. And that's what all this is all about.
Don't forget that UK is an important but only a small market for VW globaly. If you don't want to buy here a car they price at 30k euro (at current exchange rates) they can use that slot to build a car for someone who will.... Whoever pays. They sell probably more GTIs in China now taking into account the amount of mk6 videos on youtube :)
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At the end of the day it comes down to what people are happy to pay.
I'm not a golf GTI nut, just think it's a dam good car and was happy to pay £25k for what is basically a hatch back (with options, on order for March). At the time thought it about right price for what i was gettingbecause I got a good deak and a few £k off. But.... if I was to pay the new price at cost with no discount, then I'd take my money elsewhere as would feel like a rip off for the asking price and can get better car for about the same or just for a few £k more. At the new price with no discount it falls into the range of BMW 325i msport or for a little more - the 330i msport as long as you go with one of the big discounts on offer for either car.
As someone else said it's not what you can afford, it comes down to if you think it's worth the price asked for and I think it's nuts that people would be happy getting piss taken from them so suspect there will be a drop in orders going forward unless discounds are given once the demand drops off (which at them prices I suspect it will!)
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I would not even consider buying a GTI in Hong Kong in the first place. You just do not have the road to enjoy the car unless you go out of the city. A Polo would do as it is compact enough to park & yet roomy enough for 4.
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Personally, my moan is purely the fact that I won't be able to afford/justify another GTi despite the fact that I love this car to bits and would happily buy another.
I think that's a good reason to moan JJH.
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Personally, my moan is purely the fact that I won't be able to afford/justify another GTi despite the fact that I love this car to bits and would happily buy another.
I think that's a good reason to moan JJH.
Yours worn out already?
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I wish Mac7 - the chuffing thing's hardly moved for a week and it's now sat under 8 inches of snow.
Not risking taking mine to work in these conditions so I've been taking our lass's - not bothered so much if I stuff that!!!!!
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I would not even consider buying a GTI in Hong Kong in the first place. You just do not have the road to enjoy the car unless you go out of the city. A Polo would do as it is compact enough to park & yet roomy enough for 4.
Disagreed with you. Went out on a sunday morning over the Christmas holiday with my brother to a car meet in Hong Kong. There were at least 12 Ferrari and a few LP560 plus some GT3RS. (Can post picture if you guys are interested) We all enjoy ourselves. You do not need to travel 3 figure speed to have fun. A good car awards you other than just pure straightline accelaration.
My mother got a MK5 GTI DSG and I manage to convince her to have it revo. She drives like your usual pensioner but prefer her golf more than her BMW 320i which she had before!
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wow! just went on the VW web site and ran up the config tool. I re-spec'd my GTi on order and its £25 shy of £27,000 which is nuts, very happy got mine for the price I've ordered it for (got a good discount but hit by VAT rise as asked for 1st March). Woudln'g have got it otherwise as felt too expensive for what it was vs what else could get for just a little more
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Wow... the spec on my Golf R on the VW Website has now gone up by £2000 - and the car still isn't even out yet. The base price has gone up over £1000 for a manual 3 door.
Everyone is already saying how the R is over priced... so VW aren't really helping!!
I suppose in the £2000 I have to factor in that I'm likely going to have to pay about £700 extra VAT... but thankfully my dealer is paying half :smiley:
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As I posted on another thread about justifying the R I am finding it tough. I wanted to buy one, but not one person in the trade or a lay person can beleive the price VW is charging for the R. Just against it closest brother VW with its no discounts want £5k more than you would realistically pay for the same spec S3. An S4 is cheaper after discount than the R. My 59 reg mid spec Porsche only cost £5k more than a mid spec'd R.
Not met anyone that hasnt said it is taking the p*** for a Golf and its not a premium enough brand to justify the price. I am not anti VW as I am buying an ex dem for one of my guys and a new Tiguan for another. Had hoped to package in an R for myself, but the pricing is just too OTT
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Stop complaining mate if you can't justify/ afford it don't get it!
Get the last generation S3 you'll enjoy it till the new S3 comes out. :wink:
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I don't know why people are giving those that don't agree with vw's pricing a hard time? Who can blame them?!
The fact of the matter is, you can get the equivalent vehicle from Audi for less. If people don't rant how do VW get feedback from their customers.
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I don't know why people are giving those that don't agree with vw's pricing a hard time? Who can blame them?!
The fact of the matter is, you can get the equivalent vehicle from Audi for less. If people don't rant how do VW get feedback from their customers.
I'm not trying to give people a hard time BUT I'm bored of hearing the same comlaints, if people really have a problem send letters to VW because repeating yourself over and over again on here will make no difference!
It simple if you don't like it don't get it! Buy the equivelent Audi - IMO the S3 A3 aren't as good as the vw - perhaps that's why they are having to discount them so heavily? Or perhaps it's because they're due for a new model soon? Where as the Golf IS the new model! Wait for the new S3 the price will be similar/more than the golf R.....
The prices are higher but I think this is an indication of things to come with all brands not just VW chancing their hand.
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Stop complaining mate if you can't justify/ afford it don't get it!
Get the last generation S3 you'll enjoy it till the new S3 comes out. :wink:
Already had the current generation S3 :smiley: Whilst I agree the new R will be better than the S3, I do wonder by how much. A Golf at £36k is now competing in a bracket it never did before. 335, S4. I usually spend £25-45k on a car and change twice a year and just cant see how its in the price band it is. It will be interesting to see where it is in a years time. At £32k I would order tomorrow. The TTS is cheaper than the R and I think offers better value, but had a couple of them so dont want a third :tongue:
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Stop complaining mate if you can't justify/ afford it don't get it!
Get the last generation S3 you'll enjoy it till the new S3 comes out. :wink:
Already had the current generation S3 :smiley: Whilst I agree the new R will be better than the S3, I do wonder by how much. A Golf at £36k is now competing in a bracket it never did before. 335, S4. I usually spend £25-45k on a car and change twice a year and just cant see how its in the price band it is. It will be interesting to see where it is in a years time. At £32k I would order tomorrow. The TTS is cheaper than the R and I think offers better value, but had a couple of them so dont want a third :tongue:
Wow!! what line of business are you in? if you don't mind me asking. I will need to keep my car for at least 3 years, and then if prices keep creeping up may have to keep it even longer.
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Run a distribution company selling Cable TV and AV equipment. I would have a very small mortgage if I didnt change cars so often :grin:
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I would have a very small mortgage if I didnt change cars so often :grin:
Lol :grin: good luck to you mate
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Run a distribution company selling Cable TV and AV equipment. I would have a very small mortgage if I didnt change cars so often :grin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHo2pXO_XAI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHo2pXO_XAI) :wink:
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^^^ :grin: :grin: :grin: Classic Harry Enfield
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Again, simple supply and demand.
If you think the GTI/R isn't worth it then buy something else.
But what will you buy?? Porsche, BMW, Focus ST/RS, Audi, Skoda or Vauxhall?
All new and in demand models are going up at the moment.
I got a good deal on mine but then I ordered shortly after the release date, not sure VW (or dealers) knew how high the demand would be.
Fantastic car and worth every penny/cent to me.
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This pound has dropped against the euro is a load of b@llocks. $23425 is what the gti costs in usa which converts to around 16.5k in euros were as £ is over 26k in euros. We are being well and truely $hagged by vw
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This pound has dropped against the euro is a load of b@llocks. $23425 is what the gti costs in usa which converts to around 16.5k in euros were as £ is over 26k in euros. We are being well and truely $hagged by vw
A new GTI in Germany costs 26,650 Euro. At todays exchange rate we pay 26,841 Euro. Not bad considering the recent poor performance of the £.
The US is a completely different market - US buyers would never have bought a compact hatchback at the equivalent dollar value that historic £/$ exchange rates allowed.
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This pound has dropped against the euro is a load of b@llocks. $23425 is what the gti costs in usa which converts to around 16.5k in euros were as £ is over 26k in euros. We are being well and truely $hagged by vw
A new GTI in Germany costs 26,650 Euro. At todays exchange rate we pay 26,841 Euro. Not bad considering the recent poor performance of the £.
The US is a completely different market - US buyers would never have bought a compact hatchback at the equivalent dollar value that historic £/$ exchange rates allowed.
Thats no excuse its still only 16.5k euros when converted. Just shows how they are ripping us off
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The US market is the same for all manufacturers.
I work for a manufacturer and can tell you that despite the US market being very large in terms of volume, there is hardly any profit on the vehicles being sold there.
During times of high demand it is better to prioritise production for higher margin markets and make the yanks wait.
Of course it would be better to just price the cars higher, but Americans just don't get premium. They think that luxury is adding more buttons.
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Aren't USA destined VWs made in Mexico?
Significantly cheaper to build a Golf there than in Germany...
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I don't think all models can be made there, but don't quote me on that.
The labour is cheaper there but the components are the same cost.
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My first post on this forum.
Golf prices a now quite shocking especially the R version.
Golf R 5 door manual is now £30,675 before extras are added!
Too expensive and looks more like a boy racer's car.
This car is now more expensive than a well specified Mercedes C Class 250 CDI Sport Auto with leather or a 350 CDI Sport Auto with leather! I know which I would go for.
I will soon be taking delivery of a Golf GTi 5 Door, Manual, 18" Shadow Monza Wheels, Tornado Red, ACC, Luxury Pack, Winter Pack. Got a really good deal.
This is a GTi forum, I know, so I won't be talking about the R anymore!
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am1w... Welcome, I can see your not a fan of the golf R
You appear to have posted your thoughts on 2 different threads....
Enjoy your soon to be delivered GTI
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The US market is the same for all manufacturers.
I work for a manufacturer and can tell you that despite the US market being very large in terms of volume, there is hardly any profit on the vehicles being sold there.
During times of high demand it is better to prioritise production for higher margin markets and make the yanks wait.
Of course it would be better to just price the cars higher, but Americans just don't get premium. They think that luxury is adding more buttons.
But even if 16.5k Euros is only making a small profit that means 26.8K is a massive profit
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am1w... Welcome, I can see your not a fan of the golf R
You appear to have posted your thoughts on 2 different threads....
Enjoy your soon to be delivered GTI
I am sure the Golf R would be an excellent car. Unfortunately, it is hatchback and not an executive saloon. A very fast hatch it is, but with an unacceptably high price tag. It is a VW at Mercedes/ BMW prices! Remember the Phaeton? Enough said!
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am1w... Welcome, I can see your not a fan of the golf R
You appear to have posted your thoughts on 2 different threads....
Enjoy your soon to be delivered GTI
I am sure the Golf R would be an excellent car. Unfortunately, it is hatchback and not an executive saloon. A very fast hatch it is, but with an unacceptably high price tag. It is a VW at Mercedes/ BMW prices! Remember the Phaeton? Enough said!
Closer in concept to an Audi RS4, which was £50K when a lowly 2.0TDI was less than half the price. I don't remember people going on about the price of that. When buying cars like these, you are not basing your choice on the prestige of the badge or the number of gadgets as much as the performance and dynamic abilities. Phaeton with the W12 was a half-price Bently Continental - bit of a bargain really.
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Closer in concept to an Audi RS4, which was £50K when a lowly 2.0TDI was less than half the price. I don't remember people going on about the price of that. When buying cars like these, you are not basing your choice on the prestige of the badge or the number of gadgets as much as the performance and dynamic abilities. Phaeton with the W12 was a half-price Bently Continental - bit of a bargain really.
[/quote]
Audi is the prestige badge of the VW Group. VW is not. It is the 'People's Car'. The VW Golf is a medium-size family hatchback.
Mercedes is the prestige badge of the Daimler Benz Group. Smart is not.
The Audi A4 is an executive saloon.
The Audi RS4: a very fast and sporty executive saloon.
Unfortunately or fortunately 'It is the badge, Madge!'
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Audi is the prestige badge of the VW Group. VW is not.
It is the 'People's Car'.
VW Golf is a medium-size family hatchback.
This is the most succinct way of putting it, yet.
Is it only me who thinks VW are trying too had to move into more (undeserved) premium territory...?
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What are you lot on about? Golfs have always been expensive.
The Golf Rallye was approx £30K in todays money when it was launched, the G60 Limited was close to £40K in todays money. People bought them back in the early 90's.
If you want a cheap and nasty hatchback with a blower Passionford is that way>>>>>>>>
Nick
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I think i'll stick to bangers :grin:
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Audi is the prestige badge of the VW Group. VW is not.
It is the 'People's Car'.
VW Golf is a medium-size family hatchback.
[/quote]
This is the most succinct way of putting it, yet.
Is it only me who thinks VW are trying too had to move into more (undeserved) premium territory...?
[/quote]
Thanks for that.
They just don't get it!
Only trying to advise other members and save them unnecessary expense!
The Golf GTi does look better than the Golf R as more thought went into the GTi design than the R's. VW had to come up fast with a design alternative for the R. I bet the designers at VW have similiar feelings. A design swop-over would have been their preferred method!
The same thing happened with the previous generation GTi and the R32. All the magazines felt that the Mk5 GTi looked better than the R32 as did many, many people and dealers!
A final point: the front of the Scirocco R and Golf R are very, very similiar. In fact, they are exactly the same! This looks great on the Scirocco R, but not on the Golf R.
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Thanks for that.
They just don't get it!
Only trying to advise other members and save them unnecessary expense!
The Golf GTi does look better than the Golf R as more thought went into the GTi design than the R's. VW had to come up fast with a design alternative for the R. I bet the designers at VW have similiar feelings. A design swop-over would have been their preferred method!
The same thing happened with the previous generation GTi and the R32. All the magazines felt that the Mk5 GTi looked better than the R32 as did many, many people and dealers!
A final point: the front of the Scirocco R and Golf R are very, very similiar. In fact, they are exactly the same! This looks great on the Scirocco R, but not on the Golf R.
Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are wrong on the majority of your points.
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Audi is the prestige badge of the VW Group. VW is not.
It is the 'People's Car'.
VW Golf is a medium-size family hatchback.
This is the most succinct way of putting it, yet.
Is it only me who thinks VW are trying too had to move into more (undeserved) premium territory...?
I'm sure many people think the same. But things change - look at Skoda. They and Seat are more the 'Peoples Cars' of the Volkswagen group brands, and in Skodas case bloody good value.
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Audi is the prestige badge of the VW Group. VW is not.
It is the 'People's Car'.
VW Golf is a medium-size family hatchback.
[/quote]
This is the most succinct way of putting it, yet.
Is it only me who thinks VW are trying too had to move into more (undeserved) premium territory...?
[/quote]
I'm sure many people think the same. But things change - look at Skoda. They and Seat are more the 'Peoples Cars' of the Volkswagen group brands, and in Skodas case bloody good value.
[/quote]
The GTi and R are both very good looking cars. Neither of them is vulgar. I love the reserved style of the Golf. However, the R has just that bit too much unnecessary addenda.
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The GTi and R are both very good looking cars. Neither of them is vulgar. I love the reserved style of the Golf. However, the R has just that bit too much unnecessary addenda.
I would hate to say you may be biased having just purchased a GTI?
(myself having ordered an R makes me biased also)
thank god we don't all have the same taste or the world would be a dull place Indeed :shocked:
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[The GTi and R are both very good looking cars. Neither of them is vulgar. I love the reserved style of the Golf. However, the R has just that bit too much unnecessary addenda.
[/quote]
I would hate to say you may be biased having just purchased a GTI?
(myself having ordered an R makes me biased also)
thank god we don't all have the same taste or the world would be a dull place Indeed :shocked:
[/quote]
Thank God a million times!!!!!!!
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Thank God a million times!!!!!!!
something we agree on :grin:
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Thank God a million times!!!!!!!
something we agree on :grin:
Thank God a billion times!!!!!!!!
Heard today my car might be delayed. The 'build dates' keep changing.
Might go for a Merc. A few members have.
Will miss you chaps.
Will keep you posted.
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What Merc?
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Back on topic agree prices now are crazy. Luckily I was in a position to order back in July so (with discounts) I got my car for 26,000 which now lists for 30,600. 4,600 difference! That's made my day :laugh:
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How do you think this will affect used as mine has increased list price to over £31,000 where as I paid around £28k 4 months ago. Ist here really a waiting list as if I can get even close to £27,000 then I would sell mine as I want an RS6.
Looks like you are right Carl1 regards used. I have been trying to get rid of mine which was getting offers of £25,500 6 weeks ago and now it appears that no dealer is even interested in bidding on it or are offering a derisory £22,500 which is for a car that costs £31,700 new and is 5 months old. I have just leased a new car and may keep the gti aswell, if I was waiting for a new one I would almost certainly cancel and get a deal on used and beat the depreciation.
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Back on topic agree prices now are crazy. Luckily I was in a position to order back in July so (with discounts) I got my car for 26,000 which now lists for 30,600. 4,600 difference! That's made my day :laugh:
And thats the main point - everyone who ordered before the Sept price rise and certainly those before the end of the year are all saying how much more their cars are now, a lot with the tone that they wouldn't necessarily buy again at the newer price.
All manufacturers will be revisign prices if they haven't already - looked at th new Astra the other night, price on par with the Golf, but you can get 12% off plus a further £1450 to soften the blow (not scrappage). Focus ditto.
The likes of the Merc C class is looking like a lot of car for the money, even if its not the chuckable B road motor that the Golf is.
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Yes but mercs are for 50 yr old accountants.
As a 30 something accountant I'll stick with a golf for now!!
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Yes but mercs are for 50 yr old accountants.
As a 30 something accountant I'll stick with a golf for now!!
OYE YOU….. I’m 51 and have just ordered a GTI , saying that I’m a chef so I suppose my common scenes level is higher than an accountant :rolleyes: