GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk6 => Topic started by: sundaydriver on 04 November 2009, 17:40
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Not sure if i should have put this topic in the detailing section but here goes.
Got a Golf GTI which is a month old and noticed loads of swirl marks on it, to cut a long story short paid £200 to get them removed by a pro detailer but got back in from work today and straight away noticed swirls/light scratches on my bonnet.
I noticed them on the bonnet cos we have a security light at the top of the drive and it shines on this area. I only checked a small part of the bonnet so god only knows what the rest of the paintwork is like.
I got the impression a paint correction detail removes around 95% of swirls/scratches. Im going to get him back out but afraid of him cutting into more of the paintwork. :undecided:
Any advice from anyone who's had this done or general comments would be appreciated!
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swirls happen when you wash the car, read the detailing section for info on how to minimalism swirls when washing, two bucket method, use a drying cloth etc
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Yep ive got two buckets, grit guard, mitt etc (i didnt put the swirls on it) but am curious to know if someone has had a paint correction done on their car due to the dealer washing it before collection and if it removed 95% of marks
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If you specifically asked for paint correction and the car came back with swirls / scratches, then you haven't got what you paid for. Have a look over in http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/index.php (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/index.php) for guys that do this as a living and will give you an honest answer.
If your detailer had problems with paint thickness or such like, he should have at least said to you before he started the work.
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Thanks, thought so much.
He didnt really spend much time on the car, arrived at 9.00am ish, spend about half an hour in his van and left about 2.00pm.It was raining some of the time as well
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I doubt that's anywhere near the time needed.
Some of the pro's in detailingworld take a full 2 days to do correction and thats doing 12 hours a day!!!
Have a look in the studio section http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=129 (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=129)
Plus I've never seen it done in the rain!!!
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Had a reply from the detailer tonight which said he removed as much swirls/scratches as possible to a safe level to the clearcoat, he could use a more aggresive compound but would damage the clearcoat further.Its up to me but really i didnt think the swirls were too bad (its only 1 month old!)
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4.5 hours work, £200 and the job hasn't been done to your satisfaction!!
I doubt I would trust him to finish it now.
He really should have said to you at the time he couldn't remove the swirls (which I don't believe) and adjusted the invoice accordingly. The fact he never mentioned it speaks volumes.
Could you see what he was doing? Was he using an electrical polisher? I'm baffled to what he was doing while it was raining when it was correction work he was meant to be doing.
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Ive got a CCTV camera next to the security light, im gonna see what he's done today but when i emailed him to complain he said the bonnet was the worse and he went over it 5 times to a SAFE level(will check that on the camera).
Ive asked him to come back out to spend more time on the car and do it again.Lets hope i dont regret it.
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Any pictures of the paint problems ?,why did you not take it back to the dealer ?
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No sorry didn't take any pics.
Bought the car from south hereford VW but live in the north east(about 9hr round trip), did complain to the dealer but got fobbed off with not washing it properly and not noticing it when it was delivered.
Got fed up in the end and thats when i had the correction done (not very well)
Should a correction be done 100% or am i being too fussy!
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100%
Did you look at detailing world and some of the states those cars are in? Virtually anything can be repaired to a mirror like surface.
All the best for getting it sorted. Nothing worse when your not happy with your car.
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What colour is the car ?
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What colour is the car ?
It says red in his wotsits on the side bit.
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What colour is the car ?
It says red in his wotsits on the side bit.
well spotted that man :nerd:, I would have thought that red would have been o.k,its supposed to be dark cars that get the swirls.
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All cars get swirls, dark colours just show it more. I've no idea who you used but there are loads of valetters around these days and half of them are no better than the sponge monkies at the dealers. It it swirls you have or is the hologramming and buffer trails too?
See what the guy comes back with but I'd be seeking a second opinion from someone local to you on DW. To be honest £200 seemed a bit cheap to me, I was quoted £900 to correct a brand new car that ultimately I rejected and took my business elsewhere.
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See what the guy comes back with but I'd be seeking a second opinion from someone local to you on DW. To be honest £200 seemed a bit cheap to me, I was quoted £900 to correct a brand new car that ultimately I rejected and took my business elsewhere.
Wow £900..... £300 from a well respected detailer here. Most I've checked out have been from that price.
http://www.supremecleandetailing.co.uk/detailing.html (http://www.supremecleandetailing.co.uk/detailing.html)
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No sorry didn't take any pics.
Bought the car from south hereford VW but live in the north east(about 9hr round trip), did complain to the dealer but got fobbed off with not washing it properly and not noticing it when it was delivered.
If you spoke to Roger Williams you will get fobbed off. He's made a career out of fobbing people off. :angry:
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See what the guy comes back with but I'd be seeking a second opinion from someone local to you on DW. To be honest £200 seemed a bit cheap to me, I was quoted £900 to correct a brand new car that ultimately I rejected and took my business elsewhere.
Wow £900..... £300 from a well respected detailer here. Most I've checked out have been from that price.
http://www.supremecleandetailing.co.uk/detailing.html (http://www.supremecleandetailing.co.uk/detailing.html)
my quote was from Paul dalton who these days can charge double the rate and still have no problem keeping busy!
These days I'd only trust a few guys on detailing world with Clark being my preference. Hesnotexactly local tho!!
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Have you thought about buying a DA machine and doing it yourself? You never know, you might get into it.
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my quote was from Paul dalton who these days can charge double the rate and still have no problem keeping busy!
These days I'd only trust a few guys on detailing world with Clark being my preference. Hesnotexactly local tho!!
Is Paul Dalton the guy who has a video on Youtube and can command up to a four figure sum for his work? Also you can phone him out if you get bird droppings on the car?
Yeah he would definitely cost however his work looked fantastic.
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Update on the paint correction
Spoke to the detailer today who did the car, he reckons ive got a problem with the clearcoat and should return it to the dealer. He told me its the worst swirls / deep random scratches on the clearcoat he's done on a 2 month old car. He also said he did 5 passes on the bonnet and didnt want to do any more as it would end up destroying the clearcoat.
Im starting to think maybe he's right, in his defence he did remove most of the swirls and left only DRS.Last night under the security light on my drive I gently rubbed my finger on the paintwork when it was wet and you can see the swirls appear straight away. Surely that shouldnt happen.
I at the stage now where i dont even want to wash the car .
Anyway got my local dealer to finally have a look but does anyone think i should tell the dealer ive had someone try to do a paint correction (might say the detailers done it!)
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Found him.
http://www.miracledetail.co.uk/treatments-and-applications.html#Connoisseur (http://www.miracledetail.co.uk/treatments-and-applications.html#Connoisseur)
Although to be fair his paint correction seems pretty comprehensive.
1 - 2 days work
£450 - £525+
* Paintwork measured on every panel, whether steel, aluminium, GRP, PU or carbon fibre
* 24-stage Miracle natural wash with wheels, arches and door shuts cleaned with Citrus degreaser
* Wheels cleaned with a pH-neutral wheel gel and a selection of special wheel brushes
* Full paintwork decontamination (removes embedded contaminants)
* Hand-dried using 'deep pile' microfibre drying towels
* 1-3 Stage Paintwork correction process - paintwork is measured for thickness and re-levelled by a maximum of 1 or 2 microns to ensure that all surfaces reflect light perfectly
* Paintwork checked under 200 and 1000 Lumen lighting
* Paintwork cleansed including door shuts (pre-wax cleaner)
* Swissvax 'Paul Dalton's Crystal Rock Wax' (76% by volume of ultra pure white Carnauba) application to all paintwork
* Swissvax 'Paul Dalton's Crystal Rock Wax' applied to door shuts and wheels where possible
* 1 layer of a secret Polymer protection applied to the wheels
* All wheel nuts are torque set to the correct manufacturers specifications
* Tyres and exterior plastics cleaned and conditioned
* Exterior windows and mirrors cleaned and polished
* Rain/water repellent window treatment to all exterior windows
* All chrome and stainless steel surfaces cleaned and polished
* Interior cleaned and detailed using compressed air process including Leather cleaning and conditioning (available at extra cost)
Kind of puts the OP's price and work done into perspective.
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Update on the paint correction
Anyway got my local dealer to finally have a look but does anyone think i should tell the dealer ive had someone try to do a paint correction (might say the detailers done it!)
I think as soon as you say a 3rd party has physically done some work then the garage could understandably relinquish all responsibility as who is to say it isn't the detailer that has done the damage and is now blaming the car?
I'm not saying the detailer has done the damage but I just find it extremely suss that he never mentioned any problems to you when the work was carried out originally. Any tradesman worth his salt would have thought even half way through "This isn't right, I can't complete this as its faulty" and would should have told you, it might not be up to his usual standards rather than trying to bodge it. By not saying anything, he's obviously trying to pass the work off as acceptable.
All I can suggest is you tell the garage you have had the car at a detailers for an independent inspection and in his opinion the paitwork is faulty. I'm sure the fact he has got some work out of it, he wouldn't mind scribbling something down.
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Yes i think so too!
I going to say that there was swirls/drs on when it got delivered but they are getting worse every time i wash it, its a 59 plate with 900 miles on it.
But cant understand why it marks so easy i go to great lengths to avoid(2 bucket method etc).
I'm starting to think it is a clearcoat problem :sick:
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My advice is don't tell them anything. They may get an expert to look at the car or call VW out to inspect it themselfs anyway if you have told them you got a detailer to look at it they will put 2 and 2 together and workout you have had work done and bang goes any claim. What they don't know cannot hurt you! Act dumb, say it came like that from the factory if that does happen but don't tell them anything.
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Yes will do mate, when i phoned them today the bodyshop manager was on holiday so i have to phone back on monday to book an appointment with him and a VW claims bloke. The car is from south hereford VW so will probably say they did most of the damage but still worried if it does get totally corrected will they come back should i try to push for them to clearcoat again?
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Don't say the more you wash it the worse it get's otherwise they will say you are the one creating the problem. I would say the detailer is fobbing you off, maybe he hasn't washed the car correctly before detailing, or didn't mask up the trim right and has himself damaged the paint with deep scratches using his polisher machine?
What does the CCTV show? Maybe he hasn't clocked the camera and so think's he can tell you anything?
I would be taking a good look at the footage before trying to convince yourself it is a defect with the paint from VW. After all they use robots in controlled enviroments on numerous cars a day for painting etc. Swirls are inevitable no matter how many buckets you use and what you clean the car with. It's one of those things unfortunatly and flood lights will show them up a treat, better than natural light.
Hope you get it sorted one way or another,
Sam :smiley:
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Sundaydriver, did you post over in detailingworld?
I'd suggest you take some pics and post over there for some guidance as a lot of those guys deal with defects everyday. They should at least be able to identify with the symptoms your detailer claims to have spotted.
While you are there ask them if they can do correction work in the rain!!! :sad:
I still think your detailer is trying to cop out of it.
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Thanks for all your comments, ive had a look at the cctv and he did make 4-5 passes on the bonnet but overall didn't spend a lot of time on each panel, really lost confidence with this bloke!
Im gonna take it to vw, tell them ive had it only six weeks and noticed all these scratches/swirls on the clearcoat, hope they agree to correct it and continue to wash carefully and see if they come back as bad. If they do could argue there's a problem with the clearcoat but will ask them if they think there's a problem with the clearcoat on monday.
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Thanks for all your comments, ive had a look at the cctv and he did make 4-5 passes on the bonnet but overall didn't spend a lot of time on each panel, really lost confidence with this bloke!
Im gonna take it to vw, tell them ive had it only six weeks and noticed all these scratches/swirls on the clearcoat, hope they agree to correct it and continue to wash carefully and see if they come back as bad. If they do could argue there's a problem with the clearcoat but will ask them if they think there's a problem with the clearcoat on monday.
I would say it's almost impossible for the clearcoat to be applied in such a way that swirl marks are created in it. I have a tornado red mk5 and the car had some paint work done. It is a very easy colour for swirl's to show on and even the cloth/glove you clean your car with will cause swirls eventually. Go onto detailing world and even the most keen, careful pro's will tell you that after a correction session the give it a few months and they will start to come back. It's more of a case of minimising the effects so that regular correction is easy or products with fillers can easily hide them :sad:
This is why i have given up trying to achieve a 100% swirl free car, don't have the time to do it!
Sam
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Thanks Sam, do they show up on your red golf easily?
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Thanks for all your comments, ive had a look at the cctv and he did make 4-5 passes on the bonnet but overall didn't spend a lot of time on each panel, really lost confidence with this bloke!
Im gonna take it to vw, tell them ive had it only six weeks and noticed all these scratches/swirls on the clearcoat, hope they agree to correct it and continue to wash carefully and see if they come back as bad. If they do could argue there's a problem with the clearcoat but will ask them if they think there's a problem with the clearcoat on monday.
Looking forward to your response next week, fella.
Ava
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Think I'd get a 2nd opinion from a local friendly detailer before going to a VW dealer.
You could ask on Detailing World as advised above.
I suspect your detailer may not have used enough "cut" with the polishing - did he use a paint thickness guage and mask off your black trim / lights etc with masking tape ? VW paint is very hard and is well known to need a lot of polishing.
The DPB paintwork on my car got completely swirled up (thanks to a garage :angry:) and I had to use a very abrasive polish with a rotary polisher to get any removal at all. Mild polish made no impact at all on the swirls. I have a Paint thickness guage and this showed that even the abrasive polish (Menzerna Power Gloss) took a while to make any impression.
BTW if I rub my finger over my clearcoat straight after a polish I also get a mark. Once polished you need to get it waxed or sealed straight away and then treat the paintwork with kid gloves - keep washing as contactless as possible with a pressure washer and foam lance etc.. You will be surprised just how easy it is to see the slightest mark under good lighting.
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Cheers JonnyG really appreciate all the feedback :smiley:
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Had a message from my detailer about the thickness of my paint today which is as follows;
Readings were average 200-280um, which is extremely high, nearly double that of any VW I have ever done (I know VW QC is that if paint reading is less than 100um out of the factory, the car goes back to be sprayed again but 100um or above passes. On average, VW's are around 120um.) This is also indicative of something very odd with the paint. As such, it makes it very difficult to know where the clearcoat begins and ends in that reading (another reason for my caution) but certainly it won't be stupid thin, so I would be confident to remove another 1um or 2 (I've taken away 2-3um on the 5 hits I did.) It's estimated (nobody knows for sure) that 14um of clearcoat removal results in CC failure, so obviously you don't want to go anywhere near that figure on such a new car as that figure is for it's lifetime.
:huh: :huh: :huh:
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Had a message from my detailer about the thickness of my paint today which is as follows;
Readings were average 200-280um, which is extremely high, nearly double that of any VW I have ever done (I know VW QC is that if paint reading is less than 100um out of the factory, the car goes back to be sprayed again but 100um or above passes. On average, VW's are around 120um.) This is also indicative of something very odd with the paint. As such, it makes it very difficult to know where the clearcoat begins and ends in that reading (another reason for my caution) but certainly it won't be stupid thin, so I would be confident to remove another 1um or 2 (I've taken away 2-3um on the 5 hits I did.) It's estimated (nobody knows for sure) that 14um of clearcoat removal results in CC failure, so obviously you don't want to go anywhere near that figure on such a new car as that figure is for it's lifetime.
:huh: :huh: :huh:
Get him to measure the paint on another Mk6 Golf to compare thickness - 200um doesn't sound unreasonably thick to me. The car might have gone through the paint process twice or been repainted at a later date. That might also explain the 'poor' swirl marks you found in the paint.
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280um ! - did they paint it with a brush ??
Typical car paint systems are..
electrocoat 40-50um
surfacer/primer 25-30um
top coat 25-30um
Clearcoat 20-25um
Even taking the upper end of those you only get to 130/140um !!
Whatever thickness gauge he used it either needs calibrating or he needs to read the manual !
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280um ! - did they paint it with a brush ??
Typical car paint systems are..
electrocoat 40-50um
surfacer/primer 25-30um
top coat 25-30um
Clearcoat 20-25um
Even taking the upper end of those you only get to 130/140um !!
Whatever thickness gauge he used it either needs calibrating or he needs to read the manual !
No he's right, i went to the vw bodyshop today and he got measurements of 200+ plus i didn't tell them the detailer had cut it back. I rang where i bought it from and told them i want to reject the car, see how it goes tomorrow when they call back