GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: locin78 on 05 October 2009, 22:20
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Hi , i have a gti 2.0 16v its was standard till the other day i have put a full scorpion stainless exhaust on and de-cated it and put a k&n 57i cone filter on wht bhp gain am i looking at on these i know the car should have been around 150bhp before.
thanks Nic
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
+1
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
Engines gain bhp as the miles pile on, providing compression is good.
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
Engines gain bhp as the miles pile on, providing compression is good.
nope its been proven in the best quality older engines and good maintenence (ignore spelling) that all engines will lose BHP over the years.
we did this test at the garage i used to work at and it just didnt hold up i used to belive good compression kept bhp but it just doesnt! even with a clean engine using goof fuels and a regular flush and oil change it still wont ever hold its BHP
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
Engines gain bhp as the miles pile on, providing compression is good.
nope its been proven in the best quality older engines and good maintenence (ignore spelling) that all engines will lose BHP over the years.
we did this test at the garage i used to work at and it just didnt hold up i used to belive good compression kept bhp but it just doesnt! even with a clean engine using goof fuels and a regular flush and oil change it still wont ever hold its BHP
An older engine with good compressions will have much less metal to metal friction, hence more power.
If i'm wrong i'd be interested to see some evidence.
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Prob still at 150. But may have increased torque and its curve.
Horses escape as the years go on.
Engines gain bhp as the miles pile on, providing compression is good.
nope its been proven in the best quality older engines and good maintenence (ignore spelling) that all engines will lose BHP over the years.
we did this test at the garage i used to work at and it just didnt hold up i used to belive good compression kept bhp but it just doesnt! even with a clean engine using goof fuels and a regular flush and oil change it still wont ever hold its BHP
An older engine with good compressions will have much less metal to metal friction, hence more power.
If i'm wrong i'd be interested to see some evidence.
if theres a significant amount of friction when the engine has low miles then its just a sh!t engine...
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All engines have alot more friction when new.
At what point would an engine start to lose power?
I would say an engine should perform better at 100k than 20k.
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In my experience approx 3bhp gain max.
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Get it chipped by R-TECH :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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That only gives ya 4 bhp! :rolleyes:
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That only gives ya 4 bhp! :rolleyes:
you cant be serious???
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so what do you think i will gain then (bhp)???
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Only one way to find out put it on a dyno as long as the compression is good as mentioned and cams, valves etc are good you should get slight gain as the standard exhaust is already good. it has to be to get 150bhp as standard.
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Agree with the above. The only way to test the true power increase or decrease would have been to have had the car rolling roaded before the mods and then after the mods. Your best bet is to get it tuned on a RR. Now that you've changed the filter (possiblitly to get more air in) and changed the exhaust (possiblility to get more gas out) the mixture may need tweaking ever so slightly.
IMO the cone filter will have probably lost you power due to heat soak. EVERYBODY knows that the best induction on a golf 1,2,3 is panel filter and butchered airbox. I've also head instances where decat pipes can actually lose power.... (not sure if that true)
On subject of cars losing bhp over time - thats true as a general rule of thumb but if your old enough to have watched some of the earlier top gears then you will have seen the test they did with 2 mk2 16v's. One with sub 5k mileage and one with 60k on the clock - guess which one one, by a fair bit in a straight line race. :laugh:
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Agree with the above. The only way to test the true power increase or decrease would have been to have had the car rolling roaded before the mods and then after the mods. Your best bet is to get it tuned on a RR. Now that you've changed the filter (possiblitly to get more air in) and changed the exhaust (possiblility to get more gas out) the mixture may need tweaking ever so slightly.
IMO the cone filter will have probably lost you power due to heat soak. EVERYBODY knows that the best induction on a golf 1,2,3 is panel filter and butchered airbox. I've also head instances where decat pipes can actually lose power.... (not sure if that true)
On subject of cars losing bhp over time - thats true as a general rule of thumb but if your old enough to have watched some of the earlier top gears then you will have seen the test they did with 2 mk2 16v's. One with sub 5k mileage and one with 60k on the clock - guess which one one, by a fair bit in a straight line race. :laugh:
Does that mean a high mileage Valver is quicker than a VR :laugh:
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if you do some digging on here you'll find out that a decat pipe makes no difference on a standard 16v and that the cone filter actually reduces/makes no difference to power. All your motor will do is make a sh1t load of noise!
As said above muller your box. stick some bell housing cones on the inlet and outlet run a cold air feed in a stick a k&n panel filter on it. then you'll see maybe 3-4 bhp increase.
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not worth buying mods to gain a measley 1 or 2 bhp! people need to learn that if they want a fast car then a mk3 is not for them! and they should save there pennies in a little piggy and buy a better engined golf eg v6 4mo, 1.8t etc...
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Agree with the above. The only way to test the true power increase or decrease would have been to have had the car rolling roaded before the mods and then after the mods. Your best bet is to get it tuned on a RR. Now that you've changed the filter (possiblitly to get more air in) and changed the exhaust (possiblility to get more gas out) the mixture may need tweaking ever so slightly.
IMO the cone filter will have probably lost you power due to heat soak. EVERYBODY knows that the best induction on a golf 1,2,3 is panel filter and butchered airbox. I've also head instances where decat pipes can actually lose power.... (not sure if that true)
Sory but dont agree with this... I recently put a new piper x induction kit on my 16v and i can HONESTLY say it has defo made a difference for the better without a doubt! :laugh:
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That only gives ya 4 bhp! :rolleyes:
you cant be serious???
Yep!
Have the rolling road figures to prove it and Nick and topher were there to witness!
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So basicly there is no point to these mod's then? so when i asked on here which mods to get some bhp gain ect i was told the filter. the exhaust pluss to de-cat it ect ect and now i have them am told there is no gain but a loss in bhp . so people need to stop talking sh!t and stop giving people the wrong advice!! thanks for the replys and info. Nic
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finaly someone with something posative to say thanks now i dont feel so bad for spending so much money lol . Nic
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http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=129025.0
this is the defining thread on it. I'm doing the air box mod with a cold air feed
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The fact is the 2.0l 16v engine is already highly tuned and unless your willing to spend spend spend then forget about airbox and exhaust mods.
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You can get some gains by some of these mods.
A couple of BHP from the airbox mod, maybe from an induction kit if it is isolated from the engine bay and has a cold air source.
A couple of BHP from a new exhaust if your old one is coked up, same from a decat if your cat is old and partially clogged.
Take the ramps out of your throttle body for a couple more bhp. 4 bhp from a chip.
Theres a "possible" 10 to 12 bhp for you. You'll also have saved about 10 to 12 kg's of weight with the decat and new exhaust.
If increasing bhp from a normally aspirated engine was cheap and easy then everyone would be doing it.
If you want to go further match port your inlet and exhaust manifolds, get a ported and polished head, some mild cams, and get it mapped on a rolling road.
I bet most people who posted on this topic have an aftermarket exhaust :evil:
Paul
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Tests done on cgti showed an increase of 6 bhp and 9 lbs/ft torque with a properly modified airbox over a standard airbox.
This was coupled with a ported throttle body on both.
Paul
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Ok.. im gonna stick my neck on the line here......... :shocked:
If you shell out well earned sheets for say a Full system exhaust, inducton kit, ECU chip stage 1 (as these are the standard mods anyway) then i reckon you will be looking at around £800 for ROUGHLY 10bhp! Given the price you paid for your MK3 too, say £800-£900 roughly for a half decent one with 100k on the clock and you've got £1600-£1700.... May as well just go buy the VR and be done with it :laugh: As already said, unless you wanna spend spend spend, then forget it! They are highly tuned anyway.. and if taken care of can be lots of fun anyway :evil: :evil: HAHAHA
Just my opinion....... :grin: Anyone else agree?
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Ok.. im gonna stick my neck on the line here......... :shocked:
If you shell out well earned sheets for say a Full system exhaust, inducton kit, ECU chip stage 1 (as these are the standard mods anyway) then i reckon you will be looking at around £800 for ROUGHLY 10bhp! Given the price you paid for your MK3 too, say £800-£900 roughly for a half decent one with 100k on the clock and you've got £1600-£1700.... May as well just go buy the VR and be done with it :laugh: As already said, unless you wanna spend spend spend, then forget it! They are highly tuned anyway.. and if taken care of can be lots of fun anyway :evil: :evil: HAHAHA
Just my opinion....... :grin: Anyone else agree?
:lipsrsealed: i would agree, although running cost and insurance are a possible argument against your plan :smiley:
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In my experience all be it on my mk2 16v fitting a four branch manifold makes a noticable difference to the performance of the car,I can't say it increases bhp but it does substantialy increase the torque to a very noticable degree,it's not a cheap mod but it is one of the best imo.
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Youve probably hit the nail on the head the gti has got a half decent exhaust as standard it has to to get decent power, the key is to see where vw have tried to save money and as you have identified they couldnt afford a tubular manifold and skimped on a cast one and you probably will get better gains replacing the manifold instead of the exhaust, they are a pain to fit though.
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If anybody wants to believe that adding an exhaust and cone filter adds 10-15bhp then thats up to them - but I wont believe until I've seen a rolling road print out to prove it! :smug:
The manifold is the "compromise" in most manufacturers vehicles. Remember that 90% of cars that come off of the production line are all about compromise. Your average joe bloggs does not want a car that does under 20mpg, breakes their back because suspension is so hard, has an exhaust that is so loud they can't hear the person next to them etc etc. Exhaust on the GTI is definately better than some, but still a compromise. A 2.5 system is the best way to sort out the back pressure and increase mid-range torque - but not necessarily a guarentee to a bhp increase. Add on a 4 branch as well to optimise the benefits. 4 branch, plus full s/s system is probably good for 4-5bhp but will set you back £650 plus for anything decent. The cat is also another compromise. No point having a 4 branch into a cat tbh - defeats the point of what your doing.... Change to a sports cat and you've spent another £250 - thats almost £1k on the exhaust and not many mk3's (which are generally over-priced as they have a GTI badge on them) are worth that!! I've just ordered a Milltek S/S exhaust because the exhaust on my car is completely rotten and if I've got to pay £200+ to replace it I might aswell pay a little bit more and get an exhaust that will last the life of the car.
If you want true bhp increase you need to look at things like lightening pullys and flywheels. Porting and polishing, changing the cams (will make the car a little lumpy at low revs) boring out the engine to a 2.1 (diesel crank) or whacking on a supercharger or turbo.
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When I worked for a well known VW tuning specialist we did a r/r test on exhaust systems with a magazine, the car we used was a mk2 8V and in total we tested 8 systems, Jetex, magnex and Remus added around 4 bhp all the rest were the same and one even lost power.
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Ok.. im gonna stick my neck on the line here......... :shocked:
If you shell out well earned sheets for say a Full system exhaust, inducton kit, ECU chip stage 1 (as these are the standard mods anyway) then i reckon you will be looking at around £800 for ROUGHLY 10bhp! Given the price you paid for your MK3 too, say £800-£900 roughly for a half decent one with 100k on the clock and you've got £1600-£1700.... May as well just go buy the VR and be done with it :laugh: As already said, unless you wanna spend spend spend, then forget it! They are highly tuned anyway.. and if taken care of can be lots of fun anyway :evil: :evil: HAHAHA
Just my opinion....... :grin: Anyone else agree?
:lipsrsealed: i would agree, although running cost and insurance are a possible argument against your plan :smiley:
Ahh my cunning plan is floored!!! Doh! But yeah your right running costs will be different!
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When I worked for a well known VW tuning specialist we did a r/r test on exhaust systems with a magazine, the car we used was a mk2 8V and in total we tested 8 systems, Jetex, magnex and Remus added around 4 bhp all the rest were the same and one even lost power.
But when he worked for the mk3section of golfgtiforum, the only way to gain power was a drilled airbox, and an abf.
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When I worked for a well known VW tuning specialist we did a r/r test on exhaust systems with a magazine, the car we used was a mk2 8V and in total we tested 8 systems, Jetex, magnex and Remus added around 4 bhp all the rest were the same and one even lost power.
But when he worked for the mk3section of golfgtiforum, the only way to gain power was a drilled airbox, and an abf.
:shocked: :laugh:
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When I worked for a well known VW tuning specialist we did a r/r test on exhaust systems with a magazine, the car we used was a mk2 8V and in total we tested 8 systems, Jetex, magnex and Remus added around 4 bhp all the rest were the same and one even lost power.
But when he worked for the mk3section of golfgtiforum, the only way to gain power was a drilled airbox, and an abf.
With no garage or Golf! :rolleyes:
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When I worked for a well known VW tuning specialist we did a r/r test on exhaust systems with a magazine, the car we used was a mk2 8V and in total we tested 8 systems, Jetex, magnex and Remus added around 4 bhp all the rest were the same and one even lost power.
But when he worked for the mk3section of golfgtiforum, the only way to gain power was a drilled airbox, and an abf.
With no garage or Golf! :rolleyes:
:shocked: :laugh:
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I have no idea whats in a Mk5 GT but I believe it to be a non-turbo 2.0 litre 16v.
So must be abf based and that is quoted at 170bhp so what differences are there?
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I have no idea whats in a Mk5 GT but I believe it to be a non-turbo 2.0 litre 16v.
So must be abf based and that is quoted at 170bhp so what differences are there?
Might be wrong and will stand corrected if so but is it not a different series of engine I believe.
Edit just checked, 2.0 is a diesel
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Yes it probably is but look at it on a very basic level its a 2.0 litre 16v and unless the head and valves are different, i.e. more flow/bigger valves. There shouldnt be any difference in power!
I can now prove that remaps dont produce great amounts of power, so what is it?
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Taken from Wikipedia
Mk5 GT
The Golf Mk5 GT features a choice of either 1.4 L petrol engine in twincharger (TSI) configuration, or a 2.0 litre TDI diesel engine. Both petrol and diesels are available as 125 kW (170 PS; 168 bhp) versions. The diesel has 350 N·m (258 ft·lbf) of torque, which is more than the range topping R32. The petrol engined offering contains the new TSI engine, which is based on the recent Fuel Stratified Injection (FSI), but with a pair of chargers forcing the induction of the air. The chargers are a single supercharger that disengages after a specified rev-range, at which point charging of the air is handled by a single turbocharger. This system benefits from both of the efficiency of the supercharger in the lower rev ranges, with the longevity of the turbocharger higher in the rev range. This results in little turbo lag, constant power delivery along the rev range, and better fuel efficiency than similarly powered 2.4 L V6 engine due to its small size.
Both petrol and diesel versions are also available with Direct-Shift Gearbox (DSG). Performance figures for the petrol vehicle are 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 7.9 seconds (6-speed manual) and 7.7 seconds (DSG), with the diesel taking 8.2 seconds, and both reaching top speed of 220 km/h (136.7 mph).
The Golf GT features the same brakes as the Golf GTI, with 312 mm (12.3 in) ventilated front discs, and 286 mm (11.3 in) solid rears. It has also 15 mm (0.59 in) lowered suspension, which lowers its centre of gravity, it borrows the GTI's suspension/damper settings, uses 7Jx17" "ClassiXs" alloy wheels fitted with wide 225/45 R17 tyres, and has twin exhaust outlets.
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not being funny like.. but why would you want more power... theyre already fricking quick!!
just an observation..
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Good point :laugh: Its just like money doesnt matter how much you got you always want more. :grin:
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Wikipedia only give the up to date info.
I am certain there is a 170bhp 2.0 litre 16v! Well thats what a certain lady told me!
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I can now prove that remaps dont produce great amounts of power, so what is it?
Bear in mind that you haven't got a back to back rolling road test for before and after. Also your remap was just uploading a new generic map and not remapped on a rolling road to suit your cars individual mods and characteristics.
Paul
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I am just trying to create something unique the car may not be worth much but i dont plan on getting rid of my car anytime soon, yes the 16v is quick but what is wrong with making it even more quicker??? .
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Wikipedia only give the up to date info.
I am certain there is a 170bhp 2.0 litre 16v! Well thats what a certain lady told me!
Yep 2.0 16v DIESEL 170bhp
The only other 170bhp mk5 is a 1.4...yes a 1.4!
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Wikipedia only give the up to date info.
I am certain there is a 170bhp 2.0 litre 16v! Well thats what a certain lady told me!
Yep 2.0 16v DIESEL 170bhp
The only other 170bhp mk5 is a 1.4...yes a 1.4!
Thats the twincharger lump, awesome bit of kit.
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Yep, I'm yet to experience that one. I bet it sounds amazing with an exhaust!
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Thats the twincharger lump, awesome bit of kit.
My wife has a MK5 'TSI' (Red S + I) which has the 170Bhp version of this engine. Teamed with the 6speed Manual the thing is a manic!
Plus as these are 'Boosted' engines there is a 220Bhp remap available, from a 1.4L !!!!!!!!
My old valver has more character though :tongue:
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Out of interest.... Has anybody had their mk3 valver chipped. A guy I used to know of clubgti had a blitzchip self installed which he swore by, but as I was running K-Jet at the time I kind of ignored it all a bit as I didn't need to worry about chipping due to mechanical injection.
**Can of worms now open**
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. :grin:
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Yes and if you care to read this thread you will have noticed my post! :rolleyes:
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Out of interest.... Has anybody had their mk3 valver chipped. A guy I used to know of clubgti had a blitzchip self installed which he swore by, but as I was running K-Jet at the time I kind of ignored it all a bit as I didn't need to worry about chipping due to mechanical injection.
**Can of worms now open**
Straight cut or crinckled? :grin:
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I did read your reply :grin:
4bhp seems a bit crap, although I dont know how much the cost of chipping is, although a lot of people I used to know did all their own soldering, although I wouldn't trust myself not to bugger it up and ruin the whole ECU! :shocked:
I was just wondering if they were useful for setting a nice torque curve - my old mk2 had k-star mapping which was useful because you could adapt the mapping to the ron of petrol used and air intake/exhaust gas ratios to get a nice smooth power band.
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Yes it is a bit crap but you do have to drive the car to notice the complete change!
More power where you need it and more economical because you dont have to keep changing down.
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Cost and any recommended places/brands?