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Model specific boards => Golf mk3 => Topic started by: locin78 on 29 June 2009, 22:21
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Hi i have a 1997 Gti 16v with an ABF engine and had it from over a yr now and just about sorted all the little prob's with it but what i am looking to do is keep it looking standard as much a poss but i really want to get as much power from my engine a poss what things will i need ect can anyone help?
thanks Nic
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massive injectors, massive turbo, good management ported head shortened runner.. lightend fly n crank..
where do you stop
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I want to start small then go from there , were is the best place to look for performance parts ect.
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what do u class as performance parts?
Get a good exhaust on it, the whole system, and a sports cat, and a manifold.
and a good air filter, maybe the enclosed bmc air filter.
then go from there. lol.
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the deeper you're pockets the more HP you can squeeze out really, depends on your budget.
The basic is induction, combustion and exhaust.
So a good induction kit like the BMC system or another closed cone element would be perfect, if not, then a good panel filter (K&N, pipercross, green filters) alongside a drilled and de-restricted air box and a cold air intake would work well.
For combustion, you want some lairy cams, decent spark plugs, and stuff like porting and polishing.
For exhaust, you want a 4 branch manifold combined with a s/s system.
Throw in a decent remap and you should see something close to 200 horses.
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thats whyam asking on here, so people can ponit me in the right direction i dont want a loud car and looking like a bag of sh!t like all the little chav's. i want mine smart and slick and stanard looking apart from my eand breaks ect. was going to get another 16v engine and convert it to a turbo but thought i wuld get a few more ideas first
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a good exhaust dont have to be loud mate.
But a 4 2 1 manifold and sports cat would derestrict it a lot.
And then you could get a s/s exhaust with a silencer in it
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thats whyam asking on here, so people can ponit me in the right direction i dont want a loud car and looking like a bag of sh!t like all the little chav's. i want mine smart and slick and stanard looking apart from my eand breaks ect. was going to get another 16v engine and convert it to a turbo but thought i wuld get a few more ideas first
but with turbo or supercharger is were you need big pockets. If you have the money, go for it!
Look at bahn brenner motorsport (http://www.bahnbrenner.com/ (http://www.bahnbrenner.com/)) they do turbo kits (http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/categories/251/VW_Turbo_Kits (http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/categories/251/VW_Turbo_Kits)).
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But a 4 2 1 manifold and sports cat would derestrict it a lot.
Where can i get hold of one for a MK3 16v? None of the usual suspects seem to make them (Ashley, Piper etc)
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But a 4 2 1 manifold and sports cat would derestrict it a lot.
Where can i get hold of one for a MK3 16v? None of the usual suspects seem to make them (Ashley, Piper etc)
Rare as rocking horse poo im afraid....try supersprint but will be very expensive!!!
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yeah good luck finding one, my bro-in-law was looking for one for his old 16v, but we couldnt find one.
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Click (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-PERFORMANCE-MANIFOLD-VW-GOLF-3-8V-1-8-2-0-MK3-NEW_W0QQitemZ270413716900QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef5e9dda4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
Looks promising..
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Click (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HIGH-PERFORMANCE-MANIFOLD-VW-GOLF-3-8V-1-8-2-0-MK3-NEW_W0QQitemZ270413716900QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item3ef5e9dda4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
Looks promising..
Thats an 8v manifold mate. Needs to be a for a 16v.
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what do u class as performance parts?
Get a good exhaust on it, the whole system, and a sports cat, and a manifold.
and a good air filter, maybe the enclosed bmc air filter.
then go from there. lol.
Just wondering how many people have actually dyno's these so-called performance parts?
The standard downpipes are not restrictive, but the manifold isn't great...but with a bit of porting of the standard cast exhaust manifold it's good for 200+ BHP...so no need to change.
The standard cat isn't restrictive - certainly at around 190 BHP...so you don't get ANY gain from a free-flow cat or de-cat.
The standard exhaust doesn't seem restrictive either - vertainly the lower side of 190BHP...so little point in looking for power there either.
I dyno'd the lot individually and got nothing...
Noise...which makes you think it's more piowerful...but nothing on the dyno to back it up.
The standard airbox is just fine if you remove the inlet snorkel and fit a decent panel filter - I was seeing 2-3 BHP repeatable from that (K&N filter) and having tried many CAIs and crappy induction kits, all you get is more noise and often worse running.
Standard airbox is good for 190 BHP anyway...but doesn't sound as powerful.
You can Dremmel the standard ABF throttle body to remove the ramps (or machine it out and re-profile it on a lathe), which will give a couple of BHP, dyno verified...but go to far and you make it pretty unpleasant in traffic (low speed air accross the TB giving jerky throttle response).
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So a good induction kit like the BMC system or another closed cone element would be perfect, if not, then a good panel filter (K&N, pipercross, green filters) alongside a drilled and de-restricted air box and a cold air intake would work well.
Spot on.
For combustion, you want some lairy cams, decent spark plugs, and stuff like porting and polishing.
Lairy cams are a no-go if you keep standard management.
Digifant 3.2 will NOT run anything over about 256s on a standard plenumn...the pulsing in the plenumn causes the MAP sensor to go crazy, ruining the idle and causing uber poor emissions - instant MOT failure.
You can run 268 in/ std ex with good results.
Or you can go standalone management and go 268/268 or higher.
But don't believe anyone who tells you you can fit 268/268 to a standard ECU'd ABF and get it to work...it won't.
Been there, tried that.
Spark plugs will be just fine in an ABF with cams...
Porting and polishing works a treat along with cams swaps...expect around 25BHP geniune BHP from headwork, cam swaps and proper mapping of the Digifant 3.2 ECU.
For exhaust, you want a 4 branch manifold combined with a s/s system.
I'd dissagree there...
4 Branch manifolds crack unless you have very stiff engine mounts...and give no power gains I have ever found.
Standard, ported, is just fine for 200BHP.
SS system makes it sound fast...without it actually making it any faster or more powerful, in my experience...and I've dyno's two of the so called best systems against std.
Throw in a decent remap and you should see something close to 200 horses.
Realistically, I'd expect 185-190 BHP from that lot...maybe mis 190s if you optimise a lot of the smaller stuff too.
200 BHP genuine just isn't going to happen on a standard plenumn, with a standard ECU, in my view.
That barrier needs Jenvey (or otherwise) ITBs to break. I've spent 8 years trying...
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With Ess-three all the way here!
For a decent performance go for a good induction kit or airbox/panel and a CAT back exhaust
Those 2 will give you 6 or 7 bhp.
Then get a good remap (RTech) and you have a driveable car which is fast enough for most road conditions.
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...and you have a driveable car which is fast enough for most road conditions.
Is there such a thing as fast enough?
I like to think that fast enough to scare the bejesus out of you is nearly the correct place to be! :laugh:
Here's a thing:
Instead of chasing BHP that a lardy Mk3 is struggling to make best use of...why not do something that will actually make it substantially faster point to point (but not have the todger-fencing bragging rights in the pub)
Change the hopeless FD ratio it came saddled with (although not as abysmal as the VR6) to a 3.94 to get the gearing down to around 20 MPH/1000revs in top...lovely!
Fit a light flywheel - and instantly feel like you've added 40 BHP
Fit a Quaife diff and re-learn cornering ability...
Assuming the suspension is no longer at off-road height and the car isn't doing am impression of a crippled hippo, wallowing about, you will end up with a car that is damn quick point to point...and with little more power than standard required.
The suspension can be fetteled to make best use of springs/dampers/ARBs and make the Mk3 seriously capable on back roads...probably better money spent, than chasing 30-40 BHP in all honestly.
Just a thought...
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Ess_Three you have hit the nail in the head. :afro:
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I would rather spend my money on suspention, gearbox, diff, brakes and tyres. Keeping the engine standard, apart from induction and exhaust. you will be faster on back roads and track than someone with more bhp and cheap set of coilovers.
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Was thinking on the lines that with todays traffic volumes you very rarely get a clear road so why spend vast amounts of money making a car super fast?
Anyway best way is to fit a nitrous kit! :evil: :grin:
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Bike carbs are the way forward :smiley:
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Bike carbs are the way forward :smiley:
Surely going to any form of carb from proper engine management is a backward step?
ITBs would be a way forward though.
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Bike carbs are nearly the same as itb tbh.
(http://www.tiger-avon.co.uk/blog/images/carbs2.jpg)
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Bike carbs are nearly the same as itb tbh.
(http://www.tiger-avon.co.uk/blog/images/carbs2.jpg)
...except they are a carburettor, not an individal injector body, and as such are never going to give you such fine control of the engine...and you can't run them easily with a cat, or with cold start mapping.
Better off with bike ITBs instead, from my experience...and even then you have the problem of not ideal throttle openings and restricted injector selection...but easier to get the fuelling correct than using bike carbs.
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Bike carbs are nearly the same as itb tbh.
(http://www.tiger-avon.co.uk/blog/images/carbs2.jpg)
...except they are a carburettor, not an individal injector body, and as such are never going to give you such fine control of the engine...and you can't run them easily with a cat, or with cold start mapping.
Better off with bike ITBs instead, from my experience...and even then you have the problem of not ideal throttle openings and restricted injector selection...but easier to get the fuelling correct than using bike carbs.
You do know your stuff, ex-VW master tech? :smiley:
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You do know your stuff, ex-VW master tech? :smiley:
Nope, my mate is a VW Master Tech though...
I'm just an interested fettler who's spent/wasted thousands on 'stuff' to do with cars.
It's a hobby. That's how I justify it....it keeps me out of the pub!
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...and you have a driveable car which is fast enough for most road conditions.
Here's a thing:
Instead of chasing BHP that a lardy Mk3 is struggling to make best use of...why not do something that will actually make it substantially faster point to point (but not have the todger-fencing bragging rights in the pub)
Change the hopeless FD ratio it came saddled with (although not as abysmal as the VR6) to a 3.94 to get the gearing down to around 20 MPH/1000revs in top...lovely!
Fit a light flywheel - and instantly feel like you've added 40 BHP
Fit a Quaife diff and re-learn cornering ability...
Good info as always. How hard / expensive is it to change the final drive?
If you were using 205 50 15 tyres wouldn't changing them to something like 195 45 15 tyres have a similar effect. Some quick rough calculations show a similar change to the gearing (presuming I haven't missed something glaringly obvious).
I'll try to find the gear ratios and put them into an online calculator.
Hows the Jenvey throttle body and megasquirt conversion coming on?
Cheers
Paul
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Good info as always. How hard / expensive is it to change the final drive?
Cheers Paul!
Not easy to change the FD. It's a gearbox rebuild to do it...but since many will have a 2nd-3rd crunch by now anyway...it's the perfect time to do it.
You are probably looking at around £500 rebuilt with a new FD.
About what it costs to fit a pair of cams...and it'll make the car better than the cams ever will!
Of course, start adding a Quaife as well and it easily adds another £1000 on top.
But still comes in around the price of a decent re-worked head and cams...and will be the faster A to B.
If you were using 205 50 15 tyres wouldn't changing them to something like 195 45 15 tyres have a similar effect. Some quick rough calculations show a similar change to the gearing (presuming I haven't missed something glaringly obvious).
I'll try to find the gear ratios and put them into an online calculator.
Yup, that would work...
Or 215/40/16 Anni size...that's about as low as the Mk3 ever went, gearing wise. And you get the extra width related grip too.
Hows the Jenvey throttle body and megasquirt conversion coming on?
Getting there...
Jenveys are now re-worked into 8 injector spec (4 hung over the bellmouths for pre-mixing!) and i'm in the final stages of fabrication for the EDIS ignition. I was pretty much there...but decided to change the ECU and run it fully sequential on the primary 4 injectors, so needed to keep the std dizzy's cam position sensor...so all my brackets and bespoke HT leads won't fit any more (30mm too short) so I'm still getting back to where I was on that.
Jenveys are built, with linkage, rampipes, spacers twin fuel rails and FPRs, filter backplate and dome filter - which look like they'll clear the Mk3 bonnet with feeler gauge clearances!
MS has been removed as it still needed a vacuum signal for it's MAP sensor...and that's what was causing me grief with my cams and the standard plenumn...so it's out.
I just need to re-solder the plugs on and punt it on as a complete, mapped MS that plugs into a standard ABF ECU connector - plug and play!
(need to pull my finger out there...I only removed it last week...after it had sat unused for a year or so!)
I've gone with Emerald K3Pro instead...complete with full throttle gear shift capability, 8 injector capability etc.
Nice!
I'll be able to re-install my nemesis then (Schrick 268 ex cam!)
So there you are...all my 'secrets' out of the bag, as it were!
I have a renewed interest in getting the GTI finished (if there ever is such a point) after GTI International this year.
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Ess Three
Thanks for the info.
Looks like the differance between the 205 50 15 and 215 40 16 diameters isn't that great but the 195 45 15 diameter will give a similar effect to changing the final drive.
If I am right with changing the final drive you will get faster acceleration but lower top speed in each gear. I need to work out if changing up to 5th on some tracks will be beneficial, or whether slightly slower acceleration but staying in 4th will be better.
Obviously on slower tracks it will be of benefit, but at Castle Combe and Goodwood we are just starting to hit the limiter at the fastest point before braking. Not sure going into 5th will be of real benefit.
Sounds like you are getting there with the ITB project. Lets hope you get to break your magical 200 bhp barrier and get that exhaust cam working that has been giving you grief.
As far as the MS system goes do you think its of benefit over the normal ecu system on a fairly standard tuned car or only worthwhile to make use of major tuning upgrades?
Cheers
Paul
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Ess Three
Thanks for the info.
Looks like the differance between the 205 50 15 and 215 40 16 diameters isn't that great but the 195 45 15 diameter will give a similar effect to changing the final drive.
You could be right...
I seem to recall 195/50/15 and 215/40/16 are both similar, and both lower than 205/50/15.
If I am right with changing the final drive you will get faster acceleration but lower top speed in each gear. I need to work out if changing up to 5th on some tracks will be beneficial, or whether slightly slower acceleration but staying in 4th will be better.
Spot on.
Lower speed in each gear, usually offset by higher rev limit from tuning (cam and mapping etc).
Technically, a lower top speed too...although lack of power and aerodynamics will stop play long before you hit the rev limiter in top on a Mk3 anyway, so hardly an issue.
I can pull 6800-7000 in top in my ABF with 3.94. Rev limit is 7300. That's it...too much drag for any more
With a 4.2 I'd hit the limiter in top.
Obviously on slower tracks it will be of benefit, but at Castle Combe and Goodwood we are just starting to hit the limiter at the fastest point before braking. Not sure going into 5th will be of real benefit.
Possibly not...you may have to hold on the soft limiter...saves changing up and straight back down again.
The lower FD brings the Mk3 alive.
Sounds like you are getting there with the ITB project. Lets hope you get to break your magical 200 bhp barrier and get that exhaust cam working that has been giving you grief.
I'm confident... :grin:
As far as the MS system goes do you think its of benefit over the normal ecu system on a fairly standard tuned car or only worthwhile to make use of major tuning upgrades?
MS doesn't have the same perfect idle control as Digi 3.2, that's for sure.
Everywhere else, you'd not know it wasn't Digi 3.2.
The main advantage, is that you have total control over the timing and fuelling. So each time you tweak something, it saves you £350 in getting a bespoke ABF re-map done...just head to the dyno for an hour with your laptop.
Great for changing cams, filters, head, TB etc...
Mine was properly plug and play into an ABF - uses all the standard sensors, and fires standard injectors, so once installed you'd not know it was there...except for the less than perfect idle mapping as I never spent enough hours refining that...oh, and it has launch control too!
Does a standard ABF need standalone management?
No.
Will you get any gains over a re-mapped Digi 3.2 ECU?
No.
Will it let you play to your hearts content and map for all modifications...hell yeah!
It takes some time to learn the software...but once there you can on the fly map, using the standard narrow band lambda and 'Megatune' application to get it close...then just do the on-load mapping on the dyno. All for less than a generic re-map.
And it's there for any other mods you care to add.
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Ok all good info.
Cheapest option for me then will be to fit some 195 45 15 tyres to some spare wheels and try it out. Plugging the figures into a gear calc gives very similar figures to changing the FD to 3.94.
Bonus is I can switch between the two with a simple change of wheels so will be able to do back to back tests at the track. And it will also lower the centre of gravity slightly which will always help.
MS sounds like a steep learning curve to start with but worthwhile if you are constantly changing something performance wise.
Cheers
Paul
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Ok all good info.
Cheapest option for me then will be to fit some 195 45 15 tyres to some spare wheels and try it out. Plugging the figures into a gear calc gives very similar figures to changing the FD to 3.94.
Bonus is I can switch between the two with a simple change of wheels so will be able to do back to back tests at the track. And it will also lower the centre of gravity slightly which will always help.
Give it a go...
That'll certainly lower your gearing. I'm sure you'll like it.
We tried something similar on a mates VR6...changed his 205/40/17s to some 195/45/16s (my spare Fabia wheels) and he did an afternoon on the track with them...that was enough to convince him to change the FD on his VR gearbox whilst fitting a Quaife.
MS sounds like a steep learning curve to start with but worthwhile if you are constantly changing something performance wise.
It is Paul. Not the easiest mapping interface either...but effective and pretty cheap.
It's good for really learning about engine management systems.