GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: bmouthboyo on 16 May 2009, 16:46
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Hello all, not a great day :(
I went out today to remove my old cracked manifold. Unfortunately the numpty who had last bolted it on used old worn nuts and as a result they slipped when in a 12mm socket, so i had to hammer on a 11mm.
This did the trick and 2 came out with a bit of persuasion, but was tight even after letting them soak for a few days in oil.
However 3 bolt heads snapped, 2 on the exhaust manifold and 1 on the intake manifold (was removing it to get to one of the most awquardly angled bolts ever).
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/DSC_0073.jpg)
Can anyone offer some advice on how to sort this? I know there are bolt extracting kits out there but not sure what kind i need for this or what kits you guys recommended.
Also what if it doesn't work? what then? :(
All your help is much appreciated thanks all.
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Is the engine out of the car, or is the head off?? I see you are in Bournemouth. If you need a hand, P.M. me.
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The head is still in the motor.
Its inside a T25 Camper, i noticed a crack in the manifold so been trying to get it off today when this happened.
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it looks like there is still some stud sticking out of the head so if you get the manifold off you may be able to wind 2nuts on to the remainder of the stud and get the stud out that way
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Dont faf about welding things on.
Go buy a set of stud extractors from Halfords (£20), you get 4 in a red metal box - but you do need about 4mm of visible thread.
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I have used a couple of sets of stud extractor kits, the grabit type and some halfords ones. Both times they have snapped when trying to remove the bolts, and caused even more hassle. They are worth trying first though, especially if the bolts are quite big. soak them in penetrating oil first though, to try and free up the bolts first.
I always get some cutting compound, some sharp drill bits, drill a pilot hole initially really slow, then work your way just up to the size of the bolt and re-tap the thread. Keep applying more cutting compound and drill slowly and it gets there. Takes awhile, but i have ran out of stud extractors now.
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The only problem i can see with that is the limited space down there as its in a T25 camper bay and its a bit tight.
My situation is this:
3 Broken bolts (so far) 2 in exhaust manifold and 1 in inlet manifold
2 bolts still on the exhaust manifold as i cannot get clearance to hammer a 11mm socket over them. Can grind one off but other has no room as inlet manifold is blocking access.
All inlet manifold bolts are off however one (seen in pic) snapped and as a result i don't seem to be able to pull the manifold off this broken one. I think maybe the top has bent when snapping and is blocking the manifold. I assume the manifold itself has no thread, so if a bolt snaps surly the manifold can just be pulled off of it then?
I basically need to get the inlet manifold off so i can get to the 2 remaining exhaust bolts. I think that all the snapped bolts so far will be protruding from the head a fair bit if i can get the manifolds themselves off. Then go in with some good mole grips.
Worst case scenario, how much am i looking at if i take the head complete with broken bolts in to an engineers for removal?
Hectic :(
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If you can take the head off easily do it, it will be much easier than messing around in a confined space. Once its off, it will be easy to remove the studs or retap the holes.
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Ideally i would like to not remove the head, but if it comes to that at least i have options.
Has anyone had any luck with removing snapped manifold bolts? If so how did you remove them with engine in situ??
On a side note i guess its not possible to heat the bolts up due to the head being aluminum?
Also would this be something a mobile mechanic would be able to sort? or would they not touch this?
thanks
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mobile mecanic would run a mile i bet i used to do a bit of it for extra beer money this is the sort of job u dread.
gas is what you need work the manifold off and then really heat the remaing bit of stud up get mole grips on it as tight as posible and work it loose.
tbh if i was doing it mobile i'd whip the head off and do it on the bench in workshop ( or more likely tell you that but call f**kit and grab another head )
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I have used a couple of sets of stud extractor kits, the grabit type and some halfords ones. Both times they have snapped when trying to remove the bolts
Can't understand how its remotely possible to snap a stud extractor - they're sturdier than a standard socket. (See image).
But if the manifold is still stuck to the head even though all the other nuts have been removed, you won't have enough room to get it on. You sure its not just binding on some rusty studs? I'd lever it off with a screwdriver tbh.
(http://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/library/product/large/04/040210057.jpg)
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if youve got all the bolts on the inlet HIT IT it'll be stuck on with corrosion down the bolt hole.
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The inlet is loose, as in i can pivot it up and down around the snapped bolt but it wont prise away from it. I guess the manifold itself does not having any thread so it must be the bolt.
Given that the other bolts for the inlet came off pretty easily compared to the really stiff now snapped one i reckon the previous person to install it had it at a bit of an angle. Hence why the inlet wont just slide off.
I think i might try grinding the few mm of bolt back and try getting the inlet off. Basically the inlet is moving about but that snapped bolt is somehow holding it in place and that end.
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I wouldn't grind any of it off if you can avoid it - you need as much thread possible to remove it. If its just held on by one rusty stud - lever it off.
Otherwise you're drilling and tapping it - which is a pig to get centred.
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no need for the grinder ( yet anyway ) the bolt may have been crosstheaded explaning why it snaped but more likely a hole load of electroltic corosion binding whats left of the bolt to the manifold, sadly golf are getting to the age where these classic car problems start to appear :( a good blowtorch is a good freind to have in the workshop so is plenty of plus gas.
heat it them move it about then oil it and then go back to heat. you should notice it start to free up then hopefully all the corrosion will fall out and it'll pop off then you'll wonder what the hell was holding it.
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ok i think the heat route is what i need.
Will it be ok applying heat when the bolt is in a aluminum head? it wont expand and damage the head will it?
Regarding the heat, do you have any links or know where i can get a cheap option? I have seen someone using a small acetylene can attached to a torch on a video. Any idea on prices and where i can get one etc
Once the manifolds are off is it relatively easy to get the bolts out if they are protruding a fail bit?
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i've done it enough times, Ali expands faster than steel and ali also conducts heat somethign spectial. so you will struggel to make a hot spot on the head even if you try.
the small gas torch you have seen been used is proably a plumbers torch useing MAPP gas. they are highly recomended
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rothenberger-Superfire-2-Soldering-Torch-Mapp-Gas_W0QQitemZ120416638130QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_DIY_Materials_Plumbing_MJ?hash=item120416638130&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
there not that cheep but in a diffrent league to the torches with the other type of disposable cylinder. gas is quite expensive as well as the cartages are much tougher but the cheep spin on cartages arn't safe in a workshop i have accidentaly poped a couple before these things you can beat and ll they'll do is dent also the flame has some good heat in it. no where near what a oxy torch has but for oxiy torch your looking £300 to buy regs pipes and torch + £114 per yer bottel rent
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if it was me i would remove the head and warm the studs with gas bottles and work them out with mole grips
the problem you have is that the studs may just snap again but if you can get some warmth into them then your laughing
heat is the key to getting these out i think :wink: :wink:
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Ok thats good news, i am thinking about ordering:
Blowtorch
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=180316355371#ebayphotohosting
And i have already ordered some plusgas
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=310140816590
Also some easy out just in case of a last resort (although i'm very reluctant to try due to snapage)
Will the temperature from the blowtorch be enough you think?
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that blow torch wont get hot enough to burn your fingers :wink: :wink:
you really need the stud glowing , but be carefull because alloy just melts without warning if it gets too hot !!!
i have one of those blow torches although it is a snap-on one and they are designed for melting shrink wrap
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really? it says it gets up to 1300 degrees !!! that not enough?
Is the one posted by danny better to get?
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yes i think so
the other one might be ok then but not 1300 degrees
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it's not the tempriture of the flame so much, it's the amount of heat it can throw out as well. would be suprised if the 3 in 1 torch posted chould put out more than 100w of heat the manifold will just conduct all that away and hardly get warm, you need something that can add heat to the area your working on faster than the "work" will conduct it away. that is where oxy torches are king but mapp gas is the most accsesable effective means.
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ok thanks, i bought the one recommended by danny. I often come across suborn bolts so im sure it will come in handy.
Where can you get the refills from normally? and do they cost much?
I have bought some easygas, the solder blowtorch and some good quality mole grips.
Touch wood them b!tches are coming out.
Is there anything i should be aware of when using the blowtorch near the head?
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I have used a couple of sets of stud extractor kits, the grabit type and some halfords ones. Both times they have snapped when trying to remove the bolts
Can't understand how its remotely possible to snap a stud extractor - they're sturdier than a standard socket. (See image).
I was talking about the screw type, see image. didnt think a socket type stud extractor would actually work as he cant really get the manifold off, therefore cant access the remaining thread.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314qOubrKQL._SS500_.jpg)
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builders merchants and diy stores ect, they are top favoret of plumbers.
don't worry about the head if you have to get nasty enough to upset it, it's time to give up on doing it with the head on and rip it off and put another on, ive used oxy torches with anger on head studs and got away with it every time
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I like your style
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The elephant in the corner that half of the people here might not have spotted is that because the head is on an engine in the back of a T25 it is sitting over at 50 degrees. The broken studs are on the underside of the head.
With that many snapped studs, get the head off, because you're going to be looking up at anything you're trying to do and just solving one of those is going to waste a LOT of your time. I know, I've been there and got the t-shirt. VW's biggest problem with this whole situation is that they decided on using M8 studs - they suffer massively from heat corrosion. Subaru use M10 and this issue just doesn't rear it's head.
Make sure when you replace the manifold that you use peened nuts and good thick washers under them, or you'll be doing the same job six months later.
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Thanks for the advice. I am going to tackle one with heat, mole grips etc.
If it takes too long or proves too much of a git ill take the head off.
Is taking the head off an easy job? I have done a BMW 325 E30 with a mate once and wasnt too bad.
I am assuming its a case of removing fuel lines, intake, alternator etc then removing rocker cover and undoing the bolts (in order)
Getting engine in TDC and Slipping the timing belt off (after marking teeth position)
Then reverse with new bolts and gasket after?
Not really what i want to be doing on my own to be honest, but as i said before at least i have options.
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head on off on these engines is easy. you got the idea tho would time the engine up to TDC so the timeing marks for the belt are all lined up. beware of the intermideate shaft moveing when the belt is off as it'll put the ignition timeing out or just b prepared to re set the ignition timeing
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Is there any way of stoping the crank and immediate from moving when i take the belt off the cam sprocket?
Also in terms of timing is it as simple as lining the crank and cam sprockets to TDC markings, and then turnign immediate until the rotor arm meets the upper marking, then putting cam belt back on? Sounds too simple lol, why do people use the probe then?
I recently did the cambelt on my mk3 AGG, and the timing markings were all over the place, nothing lined up in terms of the fly wheel and camsprocket, so we ended up just lining the crank up and marking the rest with tip ex and ensuring it was all the same on refitting. So in all not as straight forward as i would have hoped for.
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Is there any way of stoping the crank and immediate from moving when i take the belt off the cam sprocket?
Just mark it up - then you don't need to worry about it turning.
Also in terms of timing is it as simple as lining the crank and cam sprockets to TDC markings, and then turnign immediate until the rotor arm meets the upper marking, then putting cam belt back on? Sounds too simple lol, why do people use the probe then?
Timing gun is for fine tuning usually - if your valve timing is out, a timing gun won't help all too much - the marks wouldn't even be visible.
I recently did the cambelt on my mk3 AGG, and the timing markings were all over the place, nothing lined up in terms of the fly wheel and camsprocket, so we ended up just lining the crank up and marking the rest with tip ex and ensuring it was all the same on refitting. So in all not as straight forward as i would have hoped for.
That's the way I do it usually :)
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Ok a little progress update...
I applied heat and gave it a good hoseing with GasPlus. The snaped bolt is no longer seized to the inlet manifold and i can slide the manifold up and down the bolt freely, however i do not have the clearance to slide it off the 2 inch long bolt.
Is there a cutting tool, similar to a cheese cutting wire (bare with me) that i could get behind the manifold to cut that bolt. I know the bolt is not seized in the head because it would turn when it was seized to the manifold and i tried twisting it.
I know its not ideal and i would have to be careful not to damage the head, but it would save removing the head.
Cheers
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Could just use a hacksack blade ..
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i could get the blade down there but i dont have the room with the exhaust manifold on to add the handle etc.
Its very tight behind there :(
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I don't mean add on the handle - just use a standard 12" hacksaw blade and cut away. It will take a while without a handle - but it would do it.
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TAKE THE HEAD OFF!
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Thank the lord, the Exhaust manifold is Off!!!!
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/manifold10.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w182/bossman187uk/manifold11.jpg)
The trick seemed to be heat from my new burner (thanks danny) , some plus gas and a bit of welly from my mole grips and smaller sockets. Still tight but they give way apposed to snapping.
My new problem is now sourcing a manifold that I can use as a replacement, it will need to be pretty much the same dimensions as its tight in there and i want the old down pipe to fit into it.
Problem is this manifold has no part number on it :( Does anyone know if all other mk2 and mk3 manifolds that are single outlet are orientated the same.i.e. the joint that connects to the down pipe is same dimensions, are they the same angle / pitch etc?
Thanks so much all
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So you want one of these.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/diamondhell/IMGP0183LR.jpg)
But, really you want one of these:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/diamondhell/IMGP0181LR.jpg)
Because there are two outlets, like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/diamondhell/IMGP0182LR.jpg)
So it'll breathe twice as well.
I have both of these sitting about...... They're in Bristol.
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Another update...
ok so i have both maifolds off, but now there are 4 studs left in the head that i would like to replace.
Would this kit work...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IRWIN-TOOLS-5p-BOLTGRIP-NUT-BOLT-EXTRACTOR-SET-IRBGE_W0QQitemZ300315577360QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item45ec340c10&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
Would the smallest (8mm) bite the bolt? I do not have anything to measure the diameter with, but the nut was a 12mm i think so im assuming the actual bolt is much smaller.
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exhaust nut can be 12mm or 13mm but both m8.
only problem with those is your committed straight away they chew the studs, i prefer to firs try with good mole grips
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Yea i know what you mean, plus there not cheap. I have tried with my mole grips but they just slip round it and chew at it as well.
Maybe file 2 sides a little flat for some perch?
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Go buy a set of stud extractors from Halfords (£20), you get 4 in a red metal box - but you do need about 4mm of visible thread.
(http://www.machinemart.co.uk/images/library/product/large/04/040210057.jpg)
Stop arsing about with the wrong tools and bodging it - just get proper stud extractors and remove the studs properly - then you can also use them to install new studs.
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I want to get them but as i said earlier, I was asking if the ones i linked to would be the right size for the bolts. I dont want to folk out money for tools that are the wrong size.
The manifold nuts were about 12mm but im not sure about the bolt body and i don't have a tool to measure it.
The standard Irwin set sizes range from 10mm to 16mm,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=290299100359
which i thought 10mm would be too big, so i asked would this expansion set that has a 8mm size be what i need.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Irwin-BOLT-GRIP-5pc-Bolt-Extractor-Expansion-Set-add-on_W0QQitemZ400049791912QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Measuring_Tools_Levels?hash=item5d24d363a8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50
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Those Irwin tools are for removing rounded bolt heads / rounded nuts.
They are not for removing studs.
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ah ok sorry mate i thought they worked on studs the same way.
Ill pick up a set from halfords tomorrow, thanks for that.
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Those Irwin tools are for removing rounded bolt heads / rounded nuts.
They are not for removing studs.
Why can you not use them for studs?
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Because using the wrong tools for the job leads to 5 page posts like this.
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The irwin extractors are fine to remove studs, just don't expect to be able to re-use them.
Or you could use the roller type extractor sockets ben posted.
I have both sets, and both have worked in the past for me.
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Because using the wrong tools for the job leads to 5 page posts like this.
It wasn't a case of wrong tools, i needed advice and bought the tools, i.e. gas plus, blow torch, good mole grips and now the stud extractors.
I am very grateful for all the advice from people on here, im new to these DIY mechanic problems so i understand it must need some patience on your part.
Sorry if i bored you with this "5 page post"
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Not a dig at you mate - just saying in general. The fella above was asking why couldn't you use bolt extractors to remove the stud - you probably could, but you'd butcher the stud and if it broke, which it inevitably does on old cars - then you'll have even less material to bite onto to get it out.
When problems arise working on cars, if you've got the wrong tools and you are constantly trying to improvise/bodge - its never going to be a straightforward job.
Ps. now its a boring 6 page post
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ignore ben
he's jealous
because it will beat his Tappets thread for length :grin: :grin: :grin:
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not a chance, don't make me bump it to the top again!
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go on ben
other wise i will keep it up till it gets locked :grin: :grin:
sorry bmouthboyo :wink: :wink:
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Little more progress...
The stud extractor removed 3 of the studs but it snapped one further down :( Have about 6 mm showing still, but not enough for the exctractor to bite to unfortunately.
Should be having a mate with a portable welder to weld a nut to it tomorrow.
Fingers crossed.
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OK that last stud is not coming our with heat, stud extractors, mole grips, or even by welding a nut to it.
Head is coming off :(
Any ideas on how much I am looking at to have a machinist shop remove / drill out the stud?
Going to ring around tomorrow but want to make sure not getting ripped off.
Thanks
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Somewhere like Piston Broke in Bristol would charge £40-60 for a job like that.
While it's there unless you know the history of the motor you should get it skimmed, pressure tested and have the valve stem seals replaced.
Make sure it all goes back together properly.
Might be worth checking the price of an exchange head from somewhere like GSF or ECP, if they still do them.
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i used this really cool stud extractor today that was like a drill chuck, but with more sharper points of contact, and it worked in reverse, so you could undo it. I was skeptical, but it came straight out, and it only had about 6mm of metal to grip to. no use in your situation tho.
id just cut the stud off, then drill it out, tap a new thread and put in a bigger stud. you could do it yourself, and would probably only take an hour. on my mini i did this with a bendy extension attachment on my dremel, the bolt sheared off into the block, and to avoid taking the engine out, i drilled out the bolt and re-tapped it. it took me 4 hours tho! i wouldn't recommend that.
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i did this on a 1.6, one stud sheared off almost flush thanks to years of a coolant leaking onto it from the coolant channel oring in the head. what I did was grind it flat with a dremel then drill it out. use a centre punch to mark the middle of it, then mark your drill bit to the depth of the another head stud. use a small bit and work your way up to just under the diameter of the stud, then you should hopefully be able to pick out the remains of the stud then wind a tap down it.
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8 valve heads are cheep !
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as above! if you mess it up get on bay of e for another.