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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 17:36

Title: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 17:36
Hi all, haven't posted on here for ages but got a bit of a problem I could do with diagnosing!
I've got an ED30 with Bluefin, no other mods, shes on 20k.
For the last couple of months when I accelerate hard in 4th, 5th & 6th at about 2.5k revs - basically where the turbo boost kicks in, the rev counter kind of 'jumps' up to about 4.5k then comes down a bit and settles into its normal smooth climb, its hard to explain but it feels kind of like its wheel spinning and then finds grip and its ok, but its not.  When it does this you can hear the engine rev up quickly, then drop down again.  Actual acceleration doesn't seem affected.
It doesn't do it at all in 1st, 2nd or 3rd.  As most of your will know, 3rd is where you get the greatest pull from a remapped ED30, and it pulls fine with no hint of the problem I experience in 4th 5th and 6th.
It also does it at high speeds like when your in 6th at about 80mph and floor it.
All seems a bit strange, I'm wondering if the gearbox is fooked?  :undecided: Not very technically minded but if it was then wouldn't I have the same problem with all the gears, not just the top three?  :huh:
It started as I say a few months ago during the bad weather (snow etc.) but at the time I drove very carefully as the roads were so slippy, so when it happened I assumed it was just wheel spin, but as the roads have dried I have noticed it more.  It doesn't seem to have got any worse, which is why I haven't really done anything about it yet.  Thanks for taking the time to read this!  :smiley:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: R32UK on 28 April 2009, 17:59
If its remapped then I would have thought the first port of call would have been blufin... They will probably be able to give a diagnostic :smiley:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: chungster on 28 April 2009, 18:04
first sign of clutch slip i say!

Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: bacillus on 28 April 2009, 19:26
first sign of clutch slip i say!


X2
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 19:36
first sign of clutch slip i say!



Thanks for the replies. I didnt mention in my first post, but when I uninstall the Bluefin and return it to standard its fine in all gears with no sign of any problems.
If it was the clutch slipping wouldn't I experience the problem even in stock mode?
Thanks again.  Russ
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: winrya on 28 April 2009, 19:49
No its the extra torque of the remap that is pushing the limits of the clutch.  I'd say defo clutch slip
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: bacillus on 28 April 2009, 19:50
It's the higher torque with the BF map installed that causes it to slip. The fact that it's ok with the stock map is futher evidence that it's a clutch slip issue.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: nige_s on 28 April 2009, 19:53
if you find it worse on a steep incline, its defo clutch.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 19:55
Ok thanks.  So if it is the clutch whats the best way to go about, if I returned it to stock and took it to the dealer and complain about it slipping is it likely to be warranty? If they test drive it in stock it wont show them the problem, but equally if I tell them I run it on a remap they might just blame it on that and make me pay for a new one. (how much would a new clutch cost by the way?) thanks? Russ
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: winrya on 28 April 2009, 19:58
They wont replace the clutch without feeling the slip.  I'd be tempted to take them for a spin with the map on.  VW have no way of detecting a remap.  Without a rolling road it would be difficult for them to claim its remapped.

From what i can gather uprated clutches are £500.  Not sure if that includes fitting?
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: ub7rm on 28 April 2009, 20:07
I think they might realise things are not as normal when they get thrown into the boot  :grin:

Tough one, I think the only sensible solution is an uprated clutch  :undecided:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: nige_s on 28 April 2009, 20:08
Even if VW changed the clutch it would be another standard item so you'd still be in the same situation.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: bacillus on 28 April 2009, 20:11
Even if VW changed the clutch it would be another standard item so you'd still be in the same situation.

Indeed, a short term fix if you want to keep using the BF map.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Hurdy on 28 April 2009, 20:20
Yup, classic clutch slip symptoms. Sach's clutch next stop!
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Rhyso on 28 April 2009, 20:24
you'd have two hopes of getting the clutch changed under warranty too  :grin: :grin:

uprated for the win :afro:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: chungster on 28 April 2009, 20:52
clutch is classed as a wear and tear item i think, as you can abuse it with the way u drive.

if they took it off, sent it for analysis, and find that its been exposed to an increase level of torque without a shadow of a doubt, then you will have to pay for the new one and all labour costs (VW rates)

so i would just go to a reputable tuner who does a Sachs clutch kit and get it changed.

Kit is about £500, and fitting needs about 4-5 hours.

Also, if you leave it longer, you could damage the flywheel which then will be another cost to add on top!

Good luck.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: AlanD on 28 April 2009, 20:55
Sounds VERY much like the clutch to me :(
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 21:22
Thanks for the input all. Any recommendations on where to get in done? (Im in Lichfield nr. Birmingham). Cheers.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Rhyso on 28 April 2009, 21:25
Thanks for the input all. Any recommendations on where to get in done? (Im in Lichfield nr. Birmingham). Cheers.

Midland VW (http://www.midlandvw.co.uk/home.html) have a good reputation

they are based in Cannock
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 28 April 2009, 22:25
Thanks for the input all. Any recommendations on where to get in done? (Im in Lichfield nr. Birmingham). Cheers.

Midland VW (http://www.midlandvw.co.uk/home.html) have a good reputation

they are based in Cannock

Thanks rhyso, Ill give them a ring.
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: bacillus on 28 April 2009, 22:27
Does this mean you'll be going for a standard and not uprated clutch?
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: upnorth on 29 April 2009, 10:59
Hi all, haven't posted on here for ages but got a bit of a problem I could do with diagnosing!
I've got an ED30 with Bluefin, no other mods, shes on 20k.
For the last couple of months when I accelerate hard in 4th, 5th & 6th at about 2.5k revs - basically where the turbo boost kicks in, the rev counter kind of 'jumps' up to about 4.5k then comes down a bit and settles into its normal smooth climb, its hard to explain but it feels kind of like its wheel spinning and then finds grip and its ok, but its not.  When it does this you can hear the engine rev up quickly, then drop down again.  Actual acceleration doesn't seem affected.
It doesn't do it at all in 1st, 2nd or 3rd.  As most of your will know, 3rd is where you get the greatest pull from a remapped ED30, and it pulls fine with no hint of the problem I experience in 4th 5th and 6th.
It also does it at high speeds like when your in 6th at about 80mph and floor it.
All seems a bit strange, I'm wondering if the gearbox is fooked?  :undecided: Not very technically minded but if it was then wouldn't I have the same problem with all the gears, not just the top three?  :huh:
It started as I say a few months ago during the bad weather (snow etc.) but at the time I drove very carefully as the roads were so slippy, so when it happened I assumed it was just wheel spin, but as the roads have dried I have noticed it more.  It doesn't seem to have got any worse, which is why I haven't really done anything about it yet.  Thanks for taking the time to read this!  :smiley:


I posted the same problem a while ago with my old 2.0 TDI. ( post "torque limiter" http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=113338.0 )
For me it was the torque limiter that kicked in. When you remove the bluefin, you get less torque.
You can ask Superchip to remap the torque limiter as well.

Don´t think its the clutch, if the clutch is broken, it´s broken, not just with the remap and in some gears.


Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Rhyso on 29 April 2009, 11:32
Don´t think its the clutch, if the clutch is broken, it´s broken, not just with the remap and in some gears.


thats not accurate at all

when my clutch sarted to die it would only slip under full load in 5th and 6th gears.  All the other gears were fine.  Eventually it worsened and began slipping in 3rd and 4th gear

its very rare for a clutch to suddenly give up and break
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: smartypants on 29 April 2009, 11:42
Not in my experience - my Mondeo ST24's clutch gave no physical sign of giving up until intermittant slippage on one journey and then just failed.

I was warned at the last service that it was "80%" worn though, so I knew it was going to go at some point, but it gave me no feedback as such.


Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Rhyso on 29 April 2009, 11:44
Not in my experience - my Mondeo ST24's clutch gave no physical sign of giving up until intermittant slippage on one journey and then just failed.

I was warned at the last service that it was "80%" worn though, so I knew it was going to go at some point, but it gave me no feedback as such.


i did say it was rare...........

how did they advise it was 80% worn anyway?? only way you can do that is to strip it apart?? or did the biting point get higher and higher?  :undecided:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: smartypants on 29 April 2009, 11:53
Not in my experience - my Mondeo ST24's clutch gave no physical sign of giving up until intermittant slippage on one journey and then just failed.

I was warned at the last service that it was "80%" worn though, so I knew it was going to go at some point, but it gave me no feedback as such.


i did say it was rare...........

how did they advise it was 80% worn anyway?? only way you can do that is to strip it apart?? or did the biting point get higher and higher?  :undecided:

I have no idea, this is Ford we're talking about... they probably just thought of a number and added 10 to it :)





Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 29 April 2009, 13:03
Thanks for the input all. Any recommendations on where to get in done? (Im in Lichfield nr. Birmingham). Cheers.

Midland VW (http://www.midlandvw.co.uk/home.html) have a good reputation

they are based in Cannock

Thanks rhyso, Ill give them a ring.
Just spoke to a  very helpful chap at Midlands VW, he quoted around £1300 fitted for a sachs clutch  :shocked: But after I gave him the details he suggested I take off the map, take it back to VW ad insist they change it under warranty, as its only done 20k.  Think I might as well give it a try, as I'm not keen on spending that sort of cash!
I know I will be in the same booat as before, but I may just take the Bluefin off and revert to standard while I decide my next move..


Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: AlanD on 29 April 2009, 13:12
he quoted around £1300 fitted for a sachs clutch.



'king hell !! ouch !

:(
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Rhyso on 29 April 2009, 13:19
he quoted around £1300 fitted for a sachs clutch.



'king hell !! ouch !

:(

jeez!!! That's diesel clutch money!!! didn't think the petrol clutches were that expensive!!  :shocked: :shocked: :undecided:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: R32UK on 29 April 2009, 13:38
Is the Bluefin std map the same as the VW map??
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: john_o on 29 April 2009, 21:54
classic clutch slip as Hurdy says.
Give VWR a call , and run in std mode until then
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: cohiba on 30 April 2009, 11:46
Had mine done last week at VWR. :cool:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 30 April 2009, 14:41
Had mine done last week at VWR. :cool:

VWR?  :undecided:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Edition30 on 30 April 2009, 14:46
http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 30 April 2009, 17:41
http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk/

Ah, ok thanks  :smiley:

Had mine done last week at VWR. :cool:

What you have done?
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: cohiba on 30 April 2009, 20:39
Clutch,diff, engine mounts. :grin:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: Russ.C on 01 May 2009, 10:54
Clutch,diff, engine mounts. :grin:

Nice  :cool: ED30 or Std GTI?

Quick question to anyone who knows - once a clutch begins to slip is it completely knackered and only gets worse?
Reason I ask is I've booked my motor into VW next Thursday to get the clutch looked at, and in the mean time have removed the map and reverted to standard, and oddly I'm enjoying driving the car alot more than I was with the map on!  Not just because the clutch ain't slipping either, just feels more fun, can rev it harder without thinking about wheel spin or torque steer.  Difficult to explain really, but I'm liking!  :smiley:
So now shes back in standard and the clutch ain't slipping, will it still get worse or not.  Sorry if this is a really stupid question as I imagine the damage is already done, but I might not bother with the map again... :undecided:
Title: Re: Engine 'over revs' in 4th, 5th & 6th...
Post by: john_o on 05 May 2009, 13:48
yes the damage is done but..
if the torque from std doesnt go above the point to force slip then there's every chance you could get away with it for a long time.
Although you may kill it with some Santa pod action etc lol

Driving on mapped itll go VERY quickly once its started slipping btw

cohiba's is a ED30 btw and very nice too  :cool: