GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => The garage => Topic started by: sleeper16 on 26 April 2009, 22:56
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does the timing mark on the flywheel only line up at tdc of No.1 or does it do it on another as well poss no.3? just i ask as done a few bits on the golf including head gasket and cam belt and it wont start got the flywheel timing mark at lining up put then cam pulley is 180 degrees out. i was really careful not to move anything in the process and turned everything over by hand as i built it and before starting.
Cheers
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timeing mark on flywheel is no 1 TDC as with any inline 4 engine another piston will be at TDC as well iirc it'll be cyl 4.
when you turn the cranck 1 revolution the cam timeing mark will be 180 out as cams are driven at a 1:2 ratio so from TDC 2 turns will bring the camshaft sproket back to TDC and it'll line up with the flywheel again.
if you need to make adjustments, wind the engine 90 degrees back from TDC that puts all 4 pistons midway, pop the belt off turn the camshaft sproket to its tdc mark and then rotate the cranck to TDC and put the belt back on,
then turn the engine two turns by hand ( one compete rev of the camshaft sproket ) and the flywheel mark will line up again
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cool after reading that i realized it was the most stupid question iv been out there all day and couldn't see for looking. what i meant was:
at no1 tdc the mark on the flywheel lining up and then when the crank is turned for example a turn and a quarter and number two is at tdc will this mark on the flywheel line up with the pointer. or does it only even line up when number 4 and number one are at tdc
and then realized the flywheel is fixed to the crank so will always be in the same position :grin:
so if i set the crank at tdc (turn it anti clockwise 90 deg) then put my cams at tdc so the two dots face inover then this should be it timed right? theres not a sensor or something that say no4 should be at tdc for combustion instead of exhaust etc?
cheers for the patience with that ridiculous question
:embarassed:
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1 and 4 will always be at tdc as you say, and as danny says the crank will turn twice for every single rotation of the cam. as long as the crank dizzy and cam are at TDC all at the same time all is well! The dizzy on the abf is fixed so its less of a worry, but it can be fitted 180degrees off so check the rotor arm points at the notch in the dizzy housing when the cam is at TDC.
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best off with the cranck away from TDC this means the pistons are no where near the valves when you are playing with the cams. ( it's more just good practice but a ghood habbit to get into as that way it near as dammit inpossible to accidentaly damage anything )
line the marks up on the cam sprokets, and the mark on the cam sproket will line up with the arrow in the rocker cover. bring flywheel to TDC and belt on job done
in answer to your other question the cranck has missing tooth wheel on it but that can only tell the ecu where it is in any one turn as far as it's concirned no 1 TDC is no4 TDC they identical to it. the nice thing with the 16vs is the dizzy is driven off cams so it dosent matter where the intermediate shaft is and the timeing mark for the cams puts the dizzy close enough for it to run. on the ABF the sensor you mention dose exisy but it's in the dizzy it sends a singel pulse to the ECU ( hence why it won't work with k jet ) every two cranckshaft revolutions this tells the ecu where the cams are that it's starting a two revoluion cycel it then runs off the cranck position sensor.
if you have starting problems once properly timed up check the cranck postion sensor it's about the only sensor that will stop the running on it's own
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cheers having trouble getting the timing set up right i haven't got any pulley locks. and i know vw say to fit the belt anti clockwise to get rid of the tension between cam pulley and aux pulley but i cant i can only get it one tooth behind then as i tighten the tensioner up it moves the crank to compensate for the slack on opposite side.
iv got it to about 1/4 of a tooth out by setting everything to tdc and then moving the cam pulley advanced by about half a tooth and then putting belt on and tensioning that way when the crank moves it pulls it more into line, if that makes any sense
cheers
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don't worry about the itermedieate shaft pully.
put the cranck tdc feed the belt round it over the intermedieate shaft then pull it resonably tight as you offer it up the cam pully then just nudge the pully forward or back a bit ( whitchever is closest) so the belt will fit, then put some tension on with the pully , spin the engine over a few times by hand then check the tensioner again and adjust if required then your all done
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ahh what a nightmare finally got the two timing marks lined up and checked the mark on dizzy and that at no1
but still wont start it tries and struggles and almost starts but then stops
will check spark and fuel again
cheers for that info
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had a good look over it and getting spark and fuel so thought id check the timing again and there it is quarter of a tooth out no iv been messing around with it and thought, how can my timing be quarter of a tooth out when there is no variables?
the teeth on all pulleys are set none of the pulleys have been detached only the tensioner which goes to a set tension determined by the alignment marks there fore the only change is the belt and as the teeth on this cannot be moved the timing cannot be a fraction of a tooth out it would have to be 1 complete tooth out unless the belt is the wrong size or needs to stretch
is this correct or am i missing something drastic?
if so what should i do put the belt in hot water? or do i need to take it all apart again and get them to replace it?
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you actualy trying to be to presise, if the marks lineing up just 1/4 of a tooth out move the pully so it lines up and put the belt on there and that will be right. the timing marks very rarely line up exactly the is allways a bit play. or a bit more if the heads had a skim.
cambelts don't strech there desinged not to what will happen is it will bed in to the pullys after a short while whitch once this has happend the marks will mor ethan likely get closer, the spring loaded tensioner will keep the tension constant.
when vernier pullys are for when you start gettign presise on performance engines but it's actualy very common to offset the timeing a bit anyway.
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ahh i see.
well it still wouldn't start at just a fraction out.
so i decided to check if the flywheel marks are right and the flywheel tdc mark isn't tdc at all.
I used a bit of rod down the spark plug hole of number one put a little mark on the rod n held a ruler next to it n found the highest point and put the belt on at that and the belt fitted perfectly ....but still wont start it sounds like its almost starting and at some points does but doesn't last long enough to turn the ignition off cranking
EDIT should really say how far out the crank is...
from the TDC diamond if you turn the crank clockwise from the pulley the there is a second mark on the flywheel about 10-15 then about another 10-15 is a flywheelbolt this seems to mark tdc
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i am right in saying spark should occur at very tdc of the stroke arnt i?
all im thinking is maybe the cam mark is out slightly i might set the crank to tdc using the rod down the hole method and like the cam pulley up so the rotor arm is cock on instead of off the pulley mark...
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sounds like the crank is wrong, the diamond isnt tdc, its 6 degrees for the ignition timing
(http://vwtech.no-ip.info/images/golf/flywheelmark.jpg)
you see the mark to the right, thats tdc. line that up, then line the top pulley up with the cam cover mark, and make sure the dizzy is pointing to top left. that should be timed up right!
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hmm that could be the issue :grin: i will give it a go and inform how it goes
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yeah that isnt the issue it still wont start :undecided: i have spark n i have fuel the timing is lined up small notch with the tdc on cam pulley and cover rotor arm with notch in dizzy for no1.
yet when turning over it just wont quite fire...
maybe ill take all the spark plugs out and check all of them are sparking and check fuel in all pots.... i think my exhaust mani fold might have two loose bolts but surely it would still start wouldnt it? n just blow maybe miss fire. they are like to tight to move by fingers
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the ignition timing might be off? what job were you doing on the car?
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i was doing the head gasket. but then thought i should do the cam belt as its the only thing short of its full service and the cam belt age was unknown so the head has been off cams were left in head wasn't skimmed as it wasn't warped. manifold was cracked so brazed that up, did a bit of match porting inlet manifolds nothing to the head though. and a little bit on the throttle body but not alot.
engine was running fine before head removed(other than a missfire at 2.5-3k)
started first time every time
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are you running df3 or a k jet conversion ?
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digi. mk2 gti box acd code
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right checked my spark again and its a bit intermittent. all earths are good coils getting a good voltage. timings good fuel pump primes isv buzzes away and the tensioner is set by rotating the tensioner center ANTI-clockwise? not clock wise as it says in the book?
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this is getting puzzeling now.
timeing, spark is good by default as thats off the cranck
timeng belt has been checked and found good
timeing chain between cams hasnet been touched.
i'd say at this point take the plugs out and check the compression is good ( should be but just incase ) and take the plugs out while your at it and give them a quick roasting with blowtorch ( sounds daft but it's amazing the problems soaked plugs can cause ethen tho it probaly not that it's easy to elimanate ) also double check the order of the HT leads round the dizzy cap or even better get someone else to do it. should be 1342 anticlockwise looking at it iirc
if it still dosen't go it's electrical. probaly worth checking
cranckshaft position, you are getting spark so sounds like it working.
camshaft position, it's in the distubutor looks like a normal dizzy connector very worth double checking that it's connected securly without it the ecu dosent know whitch cyl of the two coming up to tdc is on intake or compression, as it dose sequential injection that will upset it.
Throttel position, worth checking the connection on that's secure as well.
vac line to FPR is allways a good one to check as well.
if it still won't go get an OBD lead and soem pikey software and ask the ECU why it's throwing a fit
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right will give them a looking over. like i say its baffling me as im getting spark and fuel and timings right so to me...it should run.
i have had throttle positioner off the TB. and the dizzy plus was hanging off before but i fixed it and it ran after fixing. leads are in 1342 anti clockwise number one starting at bottom left if looking at the car from the front.
right so will clean plugs
double check ht leads
double check all vac lines especially the one to fpr
have a look at the dizzy plug make sure it was connected ill have a look inside to make sure a contacts not broken etc
ill check throttle positioner as well make sure the connections tight ill have a look in book make sure it went back together properly
ill leave compression till last as the tester i have wont go down the holes of a 16v my mates will but i dont want to bother him unless i have to as im always round robbing tools etc :grin:
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right well. checked everything over and it all seems fine did a compressions test and all were between90-120 psi so only 30 psi diffrence. which considering the adaptor i had to make so i could use my SOHC tester kept blowing the compression past my hand i think is acceptable and also for the low readings. if nothing else is found ill go and borrow my mates DHOC tester and get the right readings.
put installed a fuel pressure gauge and thats fine so im really stuck now
its as if the timings out but every time i line the little chunk out the flywheel up with the pointer, the cam mark lines up with the cover and the rotor arm lines up with the mark in the dizzy and its on number one spark plug.
but yet still wont start it had like a little like blowing sound sorry cant think of the right word at the moment
the tps i have had this off but put it back on in the same position. just incase that has anything to do with it if it has to be re calibrated or some shiz...
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might be worth checking the keyway in the top pulley cos they can snap off. unlikely but worth checking
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is it like a woodruff key?
the timing lines up everytime i check it even after turning it over etc it is allways lining up so therefore i think i can rule out,
Wrong no of teeth on belt
size of belt etc
crank and cam pulley movement
but i cant understand why if its getting spark and fuel and is timed why it is not running, everything must be working as the only way the ecu can stop it running is to either stop spark or fuel?
and if im getting both then theres nothing that can phsyically stop it from running other than timing?....i wish i had checked the flywheel mark before taking it to pieces :sad:
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if your unsue about the tdc matk on the flywheel just use a ark welerd rod or simalar to feel where the piston is. is not accurate enough to time the motor out but timeing marks are ether close enough or way out
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so my crank should be at TDC when the cam pulley marks line up?
i did use a welding rod to check tdc and the mark on the flywheel was a bit out about 6degree past tdc (approxamitly same distance as the diamond put opposite direction)
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do you still have the abf cranckpully on the frount and cam belt cover,
if you do there is a arrow on the lower cambelt gard and a notch in the acsessory belt pully, line the notch up with the arrow that is also TDC
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right checked timing again and it lines up even with that arrow in the front so i decided i would try it 180 degrees out on the cam ie swap so number four was sparking instead of number one ...and still nothing
counted teeth on old and new belts and both have 151 teeth
i think timing is ruled out but it still does sound very timing like my fuel pressure is just below 4 bar i know not what its supposed to be but still sufficient
isv is good
all electrical connections are on and tight
vac hoses all seem to be ok i changed the one to ecu with some plastic type tubing just for now almost like washer jet tubing
is there any connections i can bridge in the TPS so i can rule this out? as i have had this off the throttle body
also any tests i can do on the dizzy plug?
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right narrowed the problem down to the spark got a helper to turn it over and i held it against an earth now my spark as it is set up is terrible very very intermittent.
if i use a plug lead straight onto the coil and earth that then i get a good spark approx 6 or so spark a second (not accurate as my eyes are terrible)
so the issue is around the distributor either lack of contacts between rotor arm and points...not sure that will be it as the dizzy had not been removed while the head was off...
or an issue with the electronic ignition timing of the engine which i believe to be the more likely option
as the static timing is tdc of crank lined up with tdc mark on cam pulley and have checked this numerous times
now what would affect this and why is the ecu not sensing this and adjusting? :undecided:
im going to check exhaust for leaks in case this is affecting the lambda probe
double check all intakes make sure all are tight etc
anything else i should look at?
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ingnition timeing of the engine cannot be a problem the dizzy is fixed in position and dosent really do a lot other than point the spark to the right cylinder, it dose have a cam position sensor in, the ingnition timeing is completly under control of the ecu the ecu gets it timeing pulses from the cranck position sensor whitch is nested behing the oil filter and reads a 60-2 toothed wheel on the cranckshaft ( none of this can be adjusted )
it is probaly worth removeing the dizzy cap and cleaning it out oil can get in there when the head is stored in strange positions other than that
cranck poition sensor is the most liable to fail tho as oil eats at the cable whitch often gives up after been moved around like when the head is removed.
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but wouldn't the crank sensor cause no spark at all? rather than the timing?
and anyway i can test all these? i have a few spare crank sensors of 8v 1800 digi and k jet engines if they are the same? the cable on it looked in good nick when it was all apart, ill maybe whip it off n do some tests with the meter
one thing i found when looking at the dizzy is with a multi meter im getting no continuity between king lead and number one plug on dizzy (obviously when lined up) now i tested the rotor arm and i am getting a resistance reading of 900 odd but then nothing when i put the cap back on, is this right? does the spark 'jump' i gave it a clean with electrical contact cleaner and then put a little wd40 on see if it helped but still nothing.
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right terminals 1-2 i get a reading of 4.1 and on my spare one i get a reading of 44 and it continued to slowly rise and i mean slowly it got to 45 and i got sick of waiting :grin:
bearing in mind my old one wasn't connected to anything i think there could be a slight issue there
EDIT: sorry should have said i was measuring resistance on the tests
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failing cranck sensor can cause all sorts of randomness thesensor itself rarely fails bu thte lead from it is common fail.
PB and kr engines don't have cranck position sensors. PB's do have knock sensors tho.
the spark will happily jump small gaps, it is over 25K Volts. as long as the rotor arm and dizzy cap arnt burnt or cracked it should be fine.
as for resistance tests they don't really tell you a lot, the cps has +12 and 0v and then a signal out will only do anythgin when powerd up
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cool sensors i have are identical to the one fitted with exception of numbers (poss knock sensor ?) as i havnt got them off one came off a ev engine. i cant find any wiring diagrams for the sensor in my haynes should it have a any power to it etc just so i can test this
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ahh ignore my jobberish, got the sensor off sat down to examine and thought to myself why am i holding the knock sensor? im so blonde at times.
i will check the CPS this time
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right getting a resistance reading of 1.3 on setting 200M between terminals 1 and 3
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www.dannyp.info
not done much on it yet but there is an abf diagram and pinout up there. busy playing with itbs and nasty k series atm
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right tests of the CKP are as follows
the plug the blue and brown terminal three is the earth this is correct and connected
terminal 1 this is to number 67 i believe (its as it says on the diagram anyway) all correct and connected red and white i think the cable is this is getting a small resistance reading to earth when ignition is off and im getting nearly 12v when ignition is on
terminal two i believe to be the signal wire from CKP to ecu the only test i have done on this is continuity between the plug and ecu and that's fine
now for tests on the CKP itself
if terminal one and three are live feed and earth then this should be continuous or bring up a resistance reading, i will double check the reading add some power and see if i can get any readings whilst the engine is turning over
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ckp sensor output should look like this on a scope if your multimeter is fast it may pick it up in the for of a lot of bleeping when set to volts or a scope meter will show you the trace
(http://www.dannyp.info/images/stories/igallery/abf_ecu_an/thumbs/cranck%20sensor%20output.jpg)
i'm wondering if your crancking the enigne over dose the spark seem to dissapar after 5 seconds or so of crancking ?
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you mean the spark disappear form the coil?
what i found the other day with a helper was while cranking i had no spark on number one then when i turn the ignition off i got one spark (not every time though)
i dont have a scope..or not that i know of anyway. what would i expect to see from the output jumping voltage from 0 to 1v for example?
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the random spark with turning the ingnition off is just one of those things the coil pack sometimes dose, when crancking you should get a steady supply of sparks but if they stop after about 5 seconds it means the ecu has immobilised itself.
when you say no spark on number 1 do you mean no sparks at all ?
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im runing the mk2 coil with tci unit not the mk3 coil pack
when i plug a plug lead into the coil and turn the engine over i get a spark about 5 or so a second(maybe more my eyes arnt that acurate)
if i plug the king lead back into the coil and put a plug in number one ht lead and earth i get nothing then a few times iv got nothing untill i stop cranking then i get one as i come off the cranking onto ignition
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mk2 coil and tci pack behave the same as mk3 coil pack just in one lump instead of two.
if you have another swap the king lead and dizzt cap just to make sure they arnt playing silly buggers
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okie dokie. i have had it running with the new leads and cap. but ill try old ones just to eliminate them. ill do it in morning as im off to work in five mins
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tried the old cap and leads and same issue as before.
no spark at plugs but spark on king lead getting four sparks per second from the coil but nothing from the plugs
so either the timing of the rotor arm isnt matching the spark or somethings telling the coil to spark at the wrong time
the spark patern from coil is like 12....34 over the period of a second
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ummmm
give shout on mobile if want think i pm'd you the number , hell of a lot easyer for me to work out whats going wrong that way and just pissing about with GRP in the garage today so will actualy have signal as well
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yeah got your number only realized i had a pm yesterday :laugh:
not at the garage at the moment mainly because im sick of the sight of it lol thought id try and work out steps to try in my head/ on pc before bringing myself round to actually doing anything more
but when im there ill give you a bell if your not busy, if its any easier :smiley:
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finding strange faults is hard enough when not there, at least phone is a bit easyer than by message
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well bit of an update whilst i was changing the cap back to the new one i found that the cables from the plug had snapped so i took dizzy out and repaired the cables just by soldering little bits in, now im getting spark at the plugs with and without the dizzy plug connected.
but still wont start.
danny i tried to ring earlier just after i found the faults with the dizzy just to let you know but it went straight to answer machine so thought you might have gone home or something
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patchy signal round here.
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ahh right okie doke.
well thought i would leave battery off for 30mins try reset the ecu incase with the live feed shorting out it had cuased any problems but made no difference
so im now that i fixed the dizzy im getting spark with and without the hall sensor plugged in
but still not starting hmm
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i think i might try replacing the hall sender with another out of one of the 8v engines how do i strip the dizzy? i cant seem to get the steel plate off the one that spins round with the cut out for the hall senser to pick up?
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never needed to strip on so not sure tbh normaly nick one off another engine
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think on the 8v ones you lever the plate up with a screwdriver either side, but this wont work on a 16v one you have to strip the entire dizzy down. theres a roll pin you bash out on the back end of it, then all the gubbins comes out.
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ahh right cheers jonny! i tried levering but it just bent the plate (on the 8v) i can see a pin going through the drive gear on the 8v i bet that needs knocking out, just cant figure a way of getting out.....oxy acetylene i think :grin:
not had much of a look at the 16 one yet but will get it back out n see how it goes.
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wheabouts are you located ? if anywhere near here have a full abf worth of senders sensors and shizzel sat in a box you chould try
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sorry was away for a couple of days. newcastle. where here? :grin:
will try this hall sender swap see if it makes any diffrence might get chance over the next few days
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Did you find the cause of the problem as I replaced my exhaust manifold last week and have exactly the same issue - fuel and spark but no bang. Everything look swithin spec on VAG-Com and hence is really confusing. :cry: