GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Egbutt Wash on 11 March 2009, 11:57
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
Think how I feel! :shocked:
The manual boys suffer more though :wink:
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
Go for the lower power map for this time of year.
Find it brilliant. (270BHP just enough!)
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
It will be OK once the roads warm up a bit :wink:
When I had a TVR I never managed to get the power down in anything other than perfect conditions .... That car had 300 bhp as well but was obviously RWD .
I think the problem is we expect a miracle because the car normally gets it's power down so well - 300 bhp through the front wheels is a hell of alot and if a TVR can't do it there is no way a Golf with a remap will do it any better.
TBH I think it copes with the power very well .... but I know what you mean - which is why I am still using the older DSG map by Superchips on my car instead of the newest more powerful one .... though that is sitting on the computer waiting to be uploaded :evil:
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Egbert has a the GTI and not the Edition 30 variant :smiley:
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Egbert has a the GTI and not the Edition 30 variant :smiley:
oops, You should be fine with your 240 bhp :embarassed:
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Spinning the wheels is more about the torque than the HP.
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Spinning the wheels is more about the torque than the HP.
Sure does, but more BHP usually equals more torque
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
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The torque is much higher at 3000 revs than it used to be (power too, torque is just power/revs).
Nearly slid off over a bridge today. Glad it wasn't a 4WD car faffing about shuffling power about, if the back had broken away I'd be in the river. As it was good old front drive understeer scrubbed off the speed.
Don't know why you K04 chaps bother remapping.
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Don't know why you K04 chaps bother remapping.
Power is higher up - it is a pussycat as standard at low revs. A mild remap doesn't change that too much.
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
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I think this is one of the side effects of no turbo lag in modern engines you have to be so light feeding in the throttle in the corners, which is tricky when you are pressing on. A mapped engine will amplify the problem. (270bhp would frighten me!)
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There is no such thing as a car that is too powerful....only a right foot that is too heavy :grin:
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
Stick a Bluemotion badge on the back.
That'll baffle Subaruists in their £12000 brand new WRX's
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
Bloody Hell!!
Will a quaife enable you to get all that power down though??
Jeez, you must slide all over the place when putting your foot down!!
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
With that power you should be able to red line it in 6th.....you don't have to answer :wink:
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
It will be OK once the roads warm up a bit :wink:
When I had a TVR I never managed to get the power down in anything other than perfect conditions .... That car had 300 bhp as well but was obviously RWD .
I think the problem is we expect a miracle because the car normally gets it's power down so well - 300 bhp through the front wheels is a hell of alot and if a TVR can't do it there is no way a Golf with a remap will do it any better.
TBH I think it copes with the power very well .... but I know what you mean - which is why I am still using the older DSG map by Superchips on my car instead of the newest more powerful one .... though that is sitting on the computer waiting to be uploaded :evil:
How much HP does a TVR griffith have??? one the other day tried to keep up with round the roundabout and up the slip road, but couldnt keep up?
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
Bloody Hell!!
Will a quaife enable you to get all that power down though??
Jeez, you must slide all over the place when putting your foot down!!
Wet weather is a challenge for the right foot, but DSG is bl00dy good at letting you meter in the power. I have had wheelspin in 4th in the damp.
A Quaife is more about control around corners, than straightline speed. The Quaife will help, but even that can only do so much until the mechanical grip is overcome to both wheels.
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The TVR Griffith had 2 engines:-
4.3ltr - 280bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
5.0ltr - 320bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
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Too quick for these slippy country roads around here.
That's the bluefin DSG upgrade.
Must organise that Quaife.
It will be OK once the roads warm up a bit :wink:
When I had a TVR I never managed to get the power down in anything other than perfect conditions .... That car had 300 bhp as well but was obviously RWD .
I think the problem is we expect a miracle because the car normally gets it's power down so well - 300 bhp through the front wheels is a hell of alot and if a TVR can't do it there is no way a Golf with a remap will do it any better.
TBH I think it copes with the power very well .... but I know what you mean - which is why I am still using the older DSG map by Superchips on my car instead of the newest more powerful one .... though that is sitting on the computer waiting to be uploaded :evil:
How much HP does a TVR griffith have??? one the other day tried to keep up with round the roundabout and up the slip road, but couldnt keep up?
There is also a 4.0L TVR Griffith ... but not too many about.
My 5.0L TVR Griffith would absolutely murder a standard Edition 30. There is simply no comparison.
A remapped Edition 30 in good conditions would certainly surprise a TVR driver. I know alot of TVR owners who won't mess with turbo cars in case they get embarrassed :grin:
FWIW ... my passengers think the ED 30 since remap feels akin to the Griffith for acceleration - but without the noise and sheer occasion of the TVR. I loved the Griff and only sold it as I couldn't afford to keep it - but comparing a Griff to the ED 30 is not in any way comparing like with like.
On the subject of power outputs - most TVR's don't put out anywhere near what the manufacturer originally claimed. My '320bhp' Griff only showed 260 bhp on a well established RR with my car running perfectly. After a bit of work it put out 275 bhp. I then spent £3000 uprating the injectors, intake plenum and engine management. I ended up with just over 300bhp ... and quite a bit more torque. To get to the claimed 320bhp you need to change the cams as well. Every so often someone had a V8 TVR that produced quite a bit more than the norm ... but that was very rare. Quite a few are not looked after or not driven well - maybe you found one of them .... I can only say what I know as the owner of both who enjoy/ed both :evil:
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Yes this was on an R plate (97), were side by side, but change gear time i was pulling away, he was going for it, gave me the thumbs up when i left the motorway next junction. 240 bhp and dsg shifting, can see theres not much in it, as the back end of that TVR was struggling to grip around the roundabout.
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My Chim 450 made 273bhp on the dyno and is scary fast in a straight line. But personally point to point I would still take a GTI/R32 any day and be quicker. Probably because I know one day the tiv will bite back, so is harder to drive it aggressively.
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Even in the dry I had to straighten the Griff before applying anything like full throttle - unless I wanted to go sideways :evil: Hold a constant speed around a roundabout and get it completely straight before going for it.
Driving any TVR is an experience that to my mind no other car manufacturer can match. That said, as has been mentioned - any Golf, be it GTi, Edition 30 or particularly R32 would be easier to drive quickly on normal roads without fear of dying :grin: If they bite, they bite big ! It's abilities far exceeded mine and I always showed it suitable respect .... whilst really enjoying it when appropriate :wink:
It is the only car I have owned that genuinely surprised passengers with the way it pinned them to the seat - off the mark the pull was awesome and very easy to access thanks to the levels of torque available from tickover ....
(Sorry for the thread highjack by the way :rolleyes:)
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Even in the dry I had to straighten the Griff before applying anything like full throttle - unless I wanted to go sideways :evil: Hold a constant speed around a roundabout and get it completely straight before going for it.
Driving any TVR is an experience that to my mind no other car manufacturer can match. That said, as has been mentioned - any Golf, be it GTi, Edition 30 or particularly R32 would be easier to drive quickly on normal roads without fear of dying :grin: If they bite, they bite big ! It's abilities far exceeded mine and I always showed it suitable respect .... whilst really enjoying it when appropriate :wink:
It is the only car I have owned that genuinely surprised passengers with the way it pinned them to the seat - off the mark the pull was awesome and very easy to access thanks to the levels of torque available from tickover ....
(Sorry for the thread highjack by the way :rolleyes:)
yes sorry, great car, and could see his car was twitching like mad, but all good fun.
Sorry....back on topic :wink:
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Even in the dry I had to straighten the Griff before applying anything like full throttle - unless I wanted to go sideways :evil: Hold a constant speed around a roundabout and get it completely straight before going for it.
Driving any TVR is an experience that to my mind no other car manufacturer can match. That said, as has been mentioned - any Golf, be it GTi, Edition 30 or particularly R32 would be easier to drive quickly on normal roads without fear of dying :grin: If they bite, they bite big ! It's abilities far exceeded mine and I always showed it suitable respect .... whilst really enjoying it when appropriate :wink:
It is the only car I have owned that genuinely surprised passengers with the way it pinned them to the seat - off the mark the pull was awesome and very easy to access thanks to the levels of torque available from tickover ....
(Sorry for the thread highjack by the way :rolleyes:)
Don't be sorry, I'ts much more interesting than my original waffle.
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
Bloody Hell!!
Will a quaife enable you to get all that power down though??
Jeez, you must slide all over the place when putting your foot down!!
Wet weather is a challenge for the right foot, but DSG is bl00dy good at letting you meter in the power. I have had wheelspin in 4th in the damp.
A Quaife is more about control around corners, than straightline speed. The Quaife will help, but even that can only do so much until the mechanical grip is overcome to both wheels.
You'd be surprised at the difference the Quaife makes John. I was getting wheel spin to 70mph and I'm sure beyond if I had pushed it, which of course I didn't :rolleyes: With the Quaife its almost gone in 1st/2nd gear... just a little flicker of the ESP light and the car shoots off. :evil: :evil: :evil:
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
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Nearly slid off over a bridge today. Glad it wasn't a 4WD car faffing about shuffling power about, if the back had broken away I'd be in the river. As it was good old front drive understeer scrubbed off the speed.
Don't know why you K04 chaps bother remapping.
4WD's dont faff. only the driver faffs.
And maybe the K04 guys bother remapping because they actually know how to drive. Im a helpful guy.... you ever want to learn??? Im sure I could teach you :wink:
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
Hurdy.. I thought it was where it delivers power to the wheel that is loosing grip. e.g the front right wheel when going round a left hand bend. Where as the normal esp sends power to the wheel with most grip?? :huh:
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No, if it deliverd power then that wheel would be useless mate. The wheel with the most grip can use the power so it sends it there. Basically what the haldex does, sends power to the rears when the front cant grip. (although a diff and the haldex are completely different, just an example so you understand)
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Cool, I get it now.
Another lesson learnt ;)
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
Hurdy.. I thought it was where it delivers power to the wheel that is loosing grip. e.g the front right wheel when going round a left hand bend. Where as the normal esp sends power to the wheel with most grip?? :huh:
ESP (electronic stability programme) works differently. It individually brakes a wheel/s to bring the car back into line when it detects instability. The Quaife works instantly as it is mechanical and distributes more power to the wheel with the most grip and reducing it to the one that has less grip, utilising the power better and at the same time eliminating instances where the ESP or traction control would have normally cut in. AS ESP and Traction control don't cut in as often, the engine, clutch and transmission are under less stress and the Quaife may actually improve the lifespan of the cars drivetrain. :cool:
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Driving any TVR is an experience that to my mind no other car manufacturer can match...fear of dying
One of my mates has a TVR. Dunno which one but he always tells me about how you can drive it round the same corner 7 times in a row with no problems and come the 8th time, for no reason, it will spin out. He's had two lucky escapes so far....
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Noone has still quite nailed it.. and I'm rubbish at explaining things without drawing pictures or waving my hands around :grin: , so give this a read http://www.autotech.com/quaife/differentials/diffs.htm
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I was right!!! :grin:
nearly :huh:
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So in my mind no trick diff in the world is going to make that much difference in a straight line (assuming the road surface is the same for both wheels).
The new Focus with 300bhp FWD and a Quaife gets rave reviews in the way it handles the power, so have the Quaife adopters seen any benefits in a straight line?
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Noone has still quite nailed it.. and I'm rubbish at explaining things without drawing pictures or waving my hands around :grin: , so give this a read http://www.autotech.com/quaife/differentials/diffs.htm
Thats a great link, and a great explanation.
Are these things costly??
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So in my mind no trick diff in the world is going to make that much difference in a straight line (assuming the road surface is the same for both wheels).
The new Focus with 300bhp FWD and a Quaife gets rave reviews in the way it handles the power, so have the Quaife adopters seen any benefits in a straight line?
It has 'revoknuckle' mate,
If you get bored
http://www.not2fast.com/chassis/revoKnuckle.pdf
http://forums.focaljet.com/suspension/585922-future-fwd-performance-revo-knuckle.html
Basically a tweaked MacPherson strut set-up.
Amusingly it was also first developed for turbo diesel cars, not hot hatches :grin:
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The torque is much higher at 3000 revs than it used to be (power too, torque is just power/revs).
Nearly slid off over a bridge today. Glad it wasn't a 4WD car faffing about shuffling power about, if the back had broken away I'd be in the river. As it was good old front drive understeer scrubbed off the speed.
You mean a 'part time' 4wd then! :wink: Real Torsen 4wds dont do that. :lipsrsealed:
Don't know why you K04 chaps bother remapping.
Its the old old conundrum - the more you have, the more you want. :wink:
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How much power you running through yours Hurdy??
325bhp and 382lbft :laugh:
Bloody Hell!!
Will a quaife enable you to get all that power down though??
Jeez, you must slide all over the place when putting your foot down!!
Wet weather is a challenge for the right foot, but DSG is bl00dy good at letting you meter in the power. I have had wheelspin in 4th in the damp.
A Quaife is more about control around corners, than straightline speed. The Quaife will help, but even that can only do so much until the mechanical grip is overcome to both wheels.
But even in a perfectly straight line, the Quaife can help. Even the slightest differences between left and right can be enough to induce momentary loss of traction, and the Quaife would still help then.
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The TVR Griffith had 2 engines:-
4.3ltr - 280bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
5.0ltr - 320bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
Is that all? :undecided: My old S4 with its 4.2 V8 had 344bhp - and you probably know how much my current V8 steed has.
So did the AJP engines go in the Griffith? :undecided:
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
Not quite. Your description of the way the Quaife works was near as damn it spot on. But regarding the standard open diff, you are way off.
On a conventional open differential (weather in a front driven axle or rear driven axle) - it will always send torque to the side of least resistance. Stop your car with one wheel on a slippery grassy verge, with the other on firm tarmac, then turn off your ESP and boot it. The speedo will merrily rise, but the car will remain stationary.
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
Hurdy.. I thought it was where it delivers power to the wheel that is loosing grip. e.g the front right wheel when going round a left hand bend.
Yup, Hurdy got that slightly wrong :wink:, but you nailed it with that one. :wink:
Where as the normal esp sends power to the wheel with most grip?? :huh:
Now you got that bit confused! :tongue:
I reckon you mean the EDL - or 'Electronic Differential Lock'. This EDL is just one additional function of the ABS/ESP system, and counteracts the inherent weakness of the conventional open diff. When one wheel on a driven axle (on the GTI, only the front, and on the R32 - also only the front - work that one out :lipsrsealed:) rotates faster than the opposite wheel on the same axle (due to said wheel having lost traction) - then the EDL applies the brake to just the one spinning wheel - which has the effect of transferring torque back across the axle to the wheel which still has the grip. But if you press your ESP button, you actually turn off all 'traction aids', including EDL and ASR. :nerd:
Nerd-mode over. :tongue:
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What exactly does a Quaife do?? I mean, where does it fit and what does it modify?
The Quaife is a Torque biasing Limited Slip Differential. Basically it distributes the power to the front wheels. Once it feels one of the wheels slipping it transfers the power to the other wheel where it can best be used.
The standard car has what is called an open differential. This will deliver power to each wheel regardless of wheel slip.
Hurdy.. I thought it was where it delivers power to the wheel that is loosing grip. e.g the front right wheel when going round a left hand bend. Where as the normal esp sends power to the wheel with most grip?? :huh:
ESP (electronic stability programme) works differently. It individually brakes a wheel/s to bring the car back into line when it detects instability.
But that is specifically referring to the 'stability' function of the ESP. It does that weather you are on the throttle or off it, braking or cornering. But the Quaife is a device which ONLY works under accelerative traction.
The Quaife works instantly as it is mechanical and distributes more power to the wheel with the most grip and reducing it to the one that has less grip, utilising the power better and at the same time eliminating instances where the ESP or traction control would have normally cut in. AS ESP and Traction control don't cut in as often, the engine, clutch and transmission are under less stress and the Quaife may actually improve the lifespan of the cars drivetrain. :cool:
You been reading the Quaife site again John? :wink:
But yes, basically correct. Though I don't entirely agree with the bit about TC not always cotting in, particularly on cars which have a more 'active' (a much earlier intervention) 'nanny' setting to their ESP. Like Saabs! :sick:
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So in my mind no trick diff in the world is going to make that much difference in a straight line (assuming the road surface is the same for both wheels).
A Quaife (or any other equally talented ATB diff) will (should) make a difference in the real world, in the dry and in the wet. How many roads do you know that have genuinely identical tarmac across the entire width of the road? Even with the smallest, insignificant difference between sides, the Quaife should have a benefit. Weather that actual benefit can be honestly perceived through the 'Mk1 Butt Dyno' is another issue though. :wink:
The new Focus with 300bhp FWD and a Quaife gets rave reviews in the way it handles the power, so have the Quaife adopters seen any benefits in a straight line?
But I think you will find the Focus actually needs an ATB, just like the previous Focus RS. Their 'natural' chassis just couldnt cope with their high engine outputs, so they had to fit the Quaife in the original RS, just to gain some reasonable forward momentum. And the chassis on the new current shaped Focus hasn't been improved over the original one - so Ford are raiding every possible parts bin to get it to work properly.
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I was right!!! :grin:
nearly :huh:
You got it the wrong way round :grin: :grin: :grin:
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So in my mind no trick diff in the world is going to make that much difference in a straight line (assuming the road surface is the same for both wheels).
The new Focus with 300bhp FWD and a Quaife gets rave reviews in the way it handles the power, so have the Quaife adopters seen any benefits in a straight line?
Definetely a huge improvement and my GTI is running 320bhp... read my earlier post in this thread :wink:
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Noone has still quite nailed it.. and I'm rubbish at explaining things without drawing pictures or waving my hands around :grin: , so give this a read http://www.autotech.com/quaife/differentials/diffs.htm
Thats a great link, and a great explanation.
Are these things costly??
Around £1200 fitted for a manual gearbox and £1450 for a DSG... I got mine done by VWRacing in Milton Keynes and it is the best mod I have done after the remap. In fact, if you had it on a standard GTI/Ed30 it would also be awesome as they aren't free of wheel spin either.
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The TVR Griffith had 2 engines:-
4.3ltr - 280bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
5.0ltr - 320bhp and 320lbft - 1060kg
Is that all? :undecided: My old S4 with its 4.2 V8 had 344bhp - and you probably know how much my current V8 steed has.
So did the AJP engines go in the Griffith? :undecided:
Griffiths/Chimaeras have Rover V8s, 2 valve per cylinder pushrod 1950s designed. So no the bhp/litre is always going to look poor against a modern multivalve number. But its all about the power to weight.
The Griffith was supposed to have the AJP and then later the Speed 6 but neither happened. Some owners have retrofitted the AJP to both Griffiths and Chimaeras. Also the Chevrolet LS V8 is a popular retrofit.
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The rover V8 is a classic lazy old engine! It's torque curve is flat as a pancake generally, It'll have 260lbs/ft at 1500rpm all the way to 5000rpm. lol! My Dads cerbera has been fully rebuilt and pushed 451bhp on the dyno. Now thats a monster to control with no Traction control! However, In everyday life, he can't even put his foot flat in 3rd in the bone dry ! Theirs no need for so much power tbh. its all pub talk! =] Give me a 280bhp Golf and i'll be happy =]
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I rebuilt a Buick 455 cu years ago.
(The Rover V8 was a small aluminium version of this venerable engine.)
510 lb.ft out of the box.
Here is a nice potted history of the Buick/Rover V8:
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Rover-Autocar-Article.htm
My lump was cast iron and really heavy, Buick based the Aluminium version on it.
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Agreed, the power outputs of the older V8's in the TVR's look poor in comparison to modern engines ..... but try one out to see if it goes well enough :laugh: :evil: :evil:
You don't find many people complaining it is lacking :wink: As has been mentioned - torque from nothing to max revs :smiley:
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So how much is this Quaife for a GTI/Ed30 including fitting and who would fit it? Any known problems?
Good thread guys. :cool:
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A Quaife fitted for a manual will be slightly cheaper than a DSG one.
Look at around £1300 to £1400 for a manual and £1450 to £1650 for a DSG
Not many places do them yet, but the most often quoted is VWRacing/Racingline.
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Thats pretty steep.
I would probably only take this route if I had remapped the car TBH....
Would a quaife really make a big difference with a standard GTI/ED30?
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I think you will need to do quite a bit more than just a remap to warrant the money it cost to get a Quaife, money down the drain on a standard one. All imo of course.
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Yeh, seems like a hell of a lot.
Dont think I'd ever spend that much on a single part!!......
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Just changed back to Superchips newer map for the DSG .... far more power and no problems now we have nicer weather :evil:
Much quicker on the uptake and the TC light is staying off :laugh:
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Now it's a bit warmer summer tyres work as they should.
The remap is just fine and dandy on warmer roads, nice to have an upgrade for free.
Wish someone would test summer tyres at winter temperatures.
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And winter tyres at summer temperatures.
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They should make a tyre for British conditions.
Coolish for most of the year.
(I run Snow and mud winter tyres on the front of the motorhome, perfect for getting out of wet fields)
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(I run Snow and mud winter tyres on the front of the motorhome, perfect for getting out of wet fields)
motorhome??? never fail to give me a laugh eggbert :grin: :grin:
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Camper vans are ace.
Mine has a garage to carry my Yamaha XT225.
Great fun.