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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: Merlin on 25 February 2009, 22:44
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Calling all Engineers: I've noticed that post 'normal' service (circa 10 & 20Km non DSG) the DSG is particularly crisp and performs well. The Torque converter engages strongly and the cars throttle response appears crisp and lively. However after a couple of weeks of normal driving the DSG appears to get lazy....the torque converter is slow to engage on acceleration and de-celleration making driving far less enjoyable.
I've proved that this is DSG control/ ECU related by power cycling the car and the result is a return of super crisp performance and zero DSG Alzheimers.
Does anyone know how to stop the DSG auto learning as it's rubbish.
Merlin.
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I find a short drive using full throttle in lower gears restores the dsg sharpness.
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You are driving way too slow for the car you bought. Speed up man. The sharpness after a service is because the mechanics have thrashed your car on a test run. The fuzzly logic learns fast.
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You are driving way too slow for the car you bought. Speed up man. The sharpness after a service is because the mechanics have thrashed your car on a test run. The fuzzly logic learns fast.
not helpful
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I do think Merlin has a valid point here. I have found that the DSG system seems to re-learn a new driving style very quickly. I'd prefer it to remember a style and keep it that way.
For example my drive home from work begins with getting out of city traffic and ends with country roads. The system learns the more sedate driving style around town in amongst traffic and then takes a while to re-adjust when I hit the country roads (changing early etc etc at first). Whereas I'd prefer it to keep the country roads style of gear change for even the city driving. Having said that, I then might get even more apauling MPG readings for town driving.
One way I found myself overcoming this would be to use the paddle's round town but then what good is "D"???
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Hi Pazz,
Exactly... How do we fix the DSG control in just reset mode?
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Cant you just use D for normal driving, then use the paddles or 'S' for your country lanes etc?
Or do you still feel a more sloppy DSG even in S or using paddles?
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You are driving way too slow for the car you bought. Speed up man. The sharpness after a service is because the mechanics have thrashed your car on a test run. The fuzzly logic learns fast.
....Or because they simply changed or cleaned your air filter!
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On the face of it the auto-learning feature seems somewhat unnecessary - Or is it? Perhaps it's actually very good that it fine-tunes itself to your individual style of driving. Being more patient while it learns is a small price to pay IMO.
I know what to expect and I'm patient - I don't have to wait very long anyway.
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Try a DSG software upgrade.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=105907.0
No interest in the group buy, but they should still offer a discount if you mention where you saw the offer. Some other companies have dsg developments in the pipeline but afaik this is the only one available in the UK right now.
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Cant you just use D for normal driving, then use the paddles or 'S' for your country lanes etc?
Or do you still feel a more sloppy DSG even in S or using paddles?
....Using D for 'normal' driving and S for country lane twisties and overtakes is exactly how I drove for the first 10k miles or so! Now I drive M with paddles all the time except for in town or traffic queues. Performance driving tuition has taught me to always be in the optimum gear and 'think manual'. S can be useful, say at very busy multi-junction roundabouts, to pop in and out of (but you have to stay for just a second or two in D as you go through or the DSG gets confused).
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Try a DSG software upgrade.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=105907.0
No interest in the group buy, but they should still offer a discount if you mention where you saw the offer. Some other companies have dsg developments in the pipeline but afaik this is the only one available in the UK right now.
....Will this particular DSG upgrade change the auto learn feature?
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I would imagine it needs to override it to maintain the sharper changes. I can't see how it would work otherwise.
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^^^^
Isn't the DSG learning process relative though?
My thinking (I don't actually know) is that the box of tricks would still learn but apply its learning method to whatever any new shift thresholds are (independently) programmed to be.
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Cant you just use D for normal driving, then use the paddles or 'S' for your country lanes etc?
Or do you still feel a more sloppy DSG even in S or using paddles?
....Using D for 'normal' driving and S for country lane twisties and overtakes is exactly how I drove for the first 10k miles or so! Now I drive M with paddles all the time except for in town or traffic queues. Performance driving tuition has taught me to always be in the optimum gear and 'think manual'. S can be useful, say at very busy multi-junction roundabouts, to pop in and out of (but you have to stay for just a second or two in D as you go through or the DSG gets confused).
Yeh thats propbably how I would drive until I got used to the paddles..........
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^^^^
@ ifti
You don't have to leave it for as many thousand miles as I did though!
Paddle extensions help too.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b308/RedRobin_05/Carbonfibre/CFinsert_wheelJPG.jpg)
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Cant you just use D for normal driving, then use the paddles or 'S' for your country lanes etc?
Or do you still feel a more sloppy DSG even in S or using paddles?
Ifti, yes that is the solution - switch into "M" or manual mode and use the paddles. BUT, the "D" mode (what with the kick-down etc) when driven aggresively can learn your style; so well infact that you dont need use the paddles. But then it decides to re-learn your more sedate style and your back to square 1.
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It learns the new style of driving in about 30 seconds.
My comment about the garage mechanics thrashing the car was serious.
The gearbox learned their style of driving, you gunned it a bit after the service and it seemed sharp.
Then you settled back to a ploddy way of driving and it learned that.
Very clever in my opinion, hats off to Borg-Warner and VW for such an excellent product for everyman.
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BUT, the "D" mode (what with the kick-down etc) when driven aggresively can learn your style; so well infact that you dont need use the paddles.
....You are far more in control if using the paddles and 'thinking manual' than in D. You can instantly override D with the paddles at any time though.
:afro:
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Calling all Engineers: I've noticed that post 'normal' service (circa 10 & 20Km non DSG) the DSG is particularly crisp and performs well.
As others have said, it gets road tested on a proper service, and will also get all the fault codes cleared from the ECU memories. And if there are any ECU updates (to either the engine or the DSG, or both), then these will also be applied at the service. These will then set the ECUs back to their 'default' settings.
The Torque converter engages strongly and the cars throttle response appears crisp and lively.
Erm, the DSG does not have a torque convertor. I has a conventional friction clutch, albeit, a multi-plate clutch, and bathed in oil - oh, and there is a pair of them! :nerd:
However after a couple of weeks of normal driving the DSG appears to get lazy....the torque converter is slow to engage on acceleration and de-celleration making driving far less enjoyable.
Can you please try and describe how the actual gear shift points are changing?
I've proved that this is DSG control/ ECU related by power cycling the car and the result is a return of super crisp performance and zero DSG Alzheimers.
LOL ^^^^
Seroiously though, if you are finding that the DSG worsens, then you must be driving very sedately! :wink:
Does anyone know how to stop the DSG auto learning as it's rubbish.
Don't think you can. Virtually all modern auto transmissions now use adaptive shifts.
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On the face of it the auto-learning feature seems somewhat unnecessary - Or is it?
I disagree. I reckon most things in life these days, from cars to cookers, all use fuzzy logic.
Perhaps it's actually very good that it fine-tunes itself to your individual style of driving.
Exactly. That can only be a good thing. :afro:
Being more patient while it learns is a small price to pay IMO.
Fully agreed. :afro:
IMVHE, I personally don't find it to be a problem, even when two completely different users drive the car - and as you rightly say, a little patience is really all that is needed. :wink: :smiley:
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^^^^
Isn't the DSG learning process relative though?
My thinking (I don't actually know) is that the box of tricks would still learn but apply its learning method to whatever any new shift thresholds are (independently) programmed to be.
Exactly. Spot on. Just like how a remap will 'raise the bar' for the learning process on the engine ECU. I would personally think is would be both impossible, and highly undesireable to remove the 'adaptive' function of the DSG - particularly on a 'remaped' DSG.
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It learns the new style of driving in about 30 seconds.
Sorry, but it takes quite a bit longer than that. Just like engine ECUs, the DSG ECU needs a couple of cycles of 'power down' to 'remember' the 'user' settings. I think you may be getting confused with the general adaptive shift pattern - which will happen irrespective of any 'learned' user style settings.
My comment about the garage mechanics thrashing the car was serious.
The gearbox learned their style of driving, you gunned it a bit after the service and it seemed sharp.
Then you settled back to a ploddy way of driving and it learned that.
Agreed.
But we really need to know if it is an undiagnosed problem with the actual clutch packs, or if it is actually a change in rpms of actual gear changes.
Very clever in my opinion, hats off to Borg-Warner and VW for such an excellent product for everyman.
Agreed again. This is getting a little scary, Nosh, with me agreeing twice in one post! :wink: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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BUT, the "D" mode (what with the kick-down etc) when driven aggresively can learn your style; so well infact that you dont need use the paddles.
....You are far more in control if using the paddles and 'thinking manual' than in D. You can instantly override D with the paddles at any time though.
:afro:
I don't disagree at all with your sentiments, about being in the correct gear for the traffic, and your 'manual thinking' train of thought. :afro:
However, I do disagree that paddle shifting and tiptronic/manual mode are the ONLY method for the DSG. Because if it was, then all auto gearboxes without paddles or tiptronic function would be banned! The full auto 'D' mode should also be perfectly useable on the DSG, just like it is on any other auto transmission. Don't forget, when the Mk5 was first released with the DSG, it didn't even have the option for the paddles! :tongue:
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BUT, the "D" mode (what with the kick-down etc) when driven aggresively can learn your style; so well infact that you dont need use the paddles.
....You are far more in control if using the paddles and 'thinking manual' than in D. You can instantly override D with the paddles at any time though.
:afro:
I don't disagree at all with your sentiments, about being in the correct gear for the traffic, and your 'manual thinking' train of thought. :afro:
However, I do disagree that paddle shifting and tiptronic/manual mode are the ONLY method for the DSG. Because if it was, then all auto gearboxes without paddles or tiptronic function would be banned! The full auto 'D' mode should also be perfectly useable on the DSG, just like it is on any other auto transmission. Don't forget, when the Mk5 was first released with the DSG, it didn't even have the option for the paddles! :tongue:
....Actually, we're not in any disagreement at all on this (though I'm sure we can find something else to disagree about! :wink:). I'm not meaning/suggesting that M-mode (paddle or tiptronic) is the ONLY method or even always the preferable mode for DSG. Remember that it was me who drove thousands of miles at first only using D and S. The beauty of DSG is all that flexibility and choice of combining the differing options while driving.
As we all know (those who enjoy their driving!) driving is an ever changing dynamic process and DSG enables us to better match the circumstances we find ourselves in [IMO].
:afro:
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The full auto 'D' mode should also be perfectly useable on the DSG, just like it is on any other auto transmission. Don't forget, when the Mk5 was first released with the DSG, it didn't even have the option for the paddles! :tongue:
....The lack of paddles in early versions strongly suggests that VW (or VAG?) were limiting their thinking to auto and not fully exploiting the potential of DSG. In fact there is yet still more potential. Progress never stops.
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It learns the new style of driving in about 30 seconds.
Sorry, but it takes quite a bit longer than that. Just like engine ECUs, the DSG ECU needs a couple of cycles of 'power down' to 'remember' the 'user' settings. I think you may be getting confused with the general adaptive shift pattern - which will happen irrespective of any 'learned' user style settings.
What the hell is "general adaptive shift pattern"???
I have found that while driving in "D" and driving sedately, upon wanting to then drive more aggresively the car will kick-down a gear or multiple gears and begin changing gears higher up the rev range - it will do this and learn this new style very quckily after a few kick-down's. This, in my oppinion, is what makes "D" effective as a half-way-house to the full manual and a full auto box - adapting to those conditions where MPG is important/performance not important and yet able to adapt again for those times when performance is required/MPG not so important.
Back to my point, if I then begin to drive sedately just a few seconds after this, the box will maintain the higher rev gear changes - expecting me to drive in the same manner as the aggresive style. HOWEVER, after a short period of time, on the same journey, it will revert back to the more sedate early gear changes.
Surely the above is evidence how quick the system is at learning a change in driving style?
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By jove...I think i've found a feature!!!... It appears (I may be mistaken?) that if when in 'P', ignition on, if you pull both paddles back at the same time for around 20 secs it resets the DSG ECU and she drives like a beauty again. Could another DSG owner give it a try and tell me if I'm going mad! I reckon it's a winner. :smiley:
Erm, the DSG does not have a torque convertor. I has a conventional friction clutch, albeit, a multi-plate clutch, and bathed in oil - oh, and there is a pair of them!
Some could accuse you of being pedantic! Although technically not a torque converter in the classic sense the DSG does convert torque into forward motion. It does not just bang the clutches in regardless of speed or we'd all stall every time we stop. You'll start thinking a wire link is not hardware next!