GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Dibz on 01 February 2009, 17:57
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just finished doing my head gasket on my k-jet 8v gti and I've gone to fire it up but got no joy,
I'm sure that the timing marks are right on the cam sprocket (inside mark on sprocket level with front of the head) and the bottom pulley (level with the mark on the block) the ht leads are in the right order and I'm quite sure I got the injectors wired up right, cam belts tightened right (90 degree twist) so is the alternator belt and both oil and antifreeze have been filled up to the levels.
I had a spare battery on charge and fitted that hoping for the car but nothing it turned over a bit slow and gave a VERY small cough but wouldn't fire at all. Ive put the battery on charge again thinking that it didn't have enough juice to start it.
would the fuel system need to prime or turned over a lot to pump the fuel out to the injectors?
I've taken my time doing this head (never done one before on my own!) so its been sitting for a few months.
Is there anything i need to do to help fire up the car after doing this work?
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is the dissy timed up :undecided: :undecided:
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I haven't done anything to the dizzy at all, but as i set the cam sprocket and bottom pulley marks i think it would be ok?
the car had a quarter tank of petrol in it just before the head went so it shouldn't be lack of fuel, fingers crossed its just the battery?
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i would check that the dissy is timed up mate
as you possably will have moved the pully inside the cam cover while putting the belt on
there is a notch in the dissy that should line up with the rotor arm when number one piston is at TDC
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It's what he said!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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I'll have to check the dizzy, and turn the engine over so all the marks line up again, if i take the sparkplug out of the first cylinder (cambelt side of block), I should be able to see the piston at TDC?
looks like I'm going to be working on the car rather than driving it in the snow next week.
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I'll have to check the dizzy, and turn the engine over so all the marks line up again, if i take the sparkplug out of the first cylinder (cambelt side of block), I should be able to see the piston at TDC?
looks like I'm going to be working on the car rather than driving it in the snow next week.
Not at all. Its a very common mistake and TBH, most MKII's do not have their intermediate sprockets in the right place. They just re-adjust the timing as it's easier. The intermediate sprocket drives the distributor and the oil pump.
Rotate the engine to NO1 TDC. Remove the distributor cap and the rotor arm should point to a notch in the distributor body. If it doesn't, turn the dizzy until it does and see if it starts. When you get it started, get the timing done as per Rub Jonnies set up guide in the maintenance section.
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Not at all. Its a very common mistake and TBH, most MKII's do not have their intermediate sprockets in the right place. They just re-adjust the timing as it's easier. The intermediate sprocket drives the distributor and the oil pump.
Rotate the engine to NO1 TDC. Remove the distributor cap and the rotor arm should point to a notch in the distributor body. If it doesn't, turn the dizzy until it does and see if it starts. When you get it started, get the timing done as per Rub Jonnies set up guide in the maintenance section.
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It's what he said!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
mine was out too
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so I line up the marks on the bottom pulley and cam sprocket, the engine should now be TDC. then pop off the dizzy cap, loosen the distributor and set the mark on the rim of the dizzy so it matches the rotor arm.
I had the cap off earlier to check the leads where set up right and remember the arm didn't match up to the notch so it looks like thats where the trouble is!
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your best off turning it at the cambelt sprocket mate , you could end up turning the dissy half a turn LOL
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I'll turn the bottom pulley so it lines up with the mark, that way i know its at TDC for sure. when the head was off that mark was fine so i trust it!
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line the bottom up and the top
then take the dissy cap off and look
the rotor arm should be pointing at the notch on the dissy body
my sprocket was about a quarter of a turn out
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Not that it helps much, but have you checked the compression. When I did my mums 206 HG, it took about 25 minutes of cranking and head scratching to get the compression up from 4 bar to 13 bar. Must have been crappy oil flow or something.
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If its not even trying to turn over, surely its an electrical problem? If it was just your dizzy, then it would still turn over just as fast as normal, but not fire up or miss-fire etc. When you turn the key what happens exactley?
This has happened to me before and the causes were...
1) Dizzy timing, as already said
2) Needed a bump start (tried jump starting it and everything), must build up engine pressure
3) Try turning the key to prime the fuel pump ten times or so to get fuel pressure up
4) One time it wouldn't start, I hadn't connected an air hose on the back of the head
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if the dizzy is out, it is a mare to get it back to time with the belt cover on, but you can just do it if you remove the front nut thru the front of the waterpump, and lots of wiggling of the rotor arm whilst wiggling the timing belt. trouble with 8v engiens is when the belt is off the dizzy will spin freely, certainly caught me out after i swapped the head on my old 1.6 driver :)
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If its not even trying to turn over, surely its an electrical problem? If it was just your dizzy, then it would still turn over just as fast as normal, but not fire up or miss-fire etc. When you turn the key what happens exactley?
just turns over slowly, just like if the battrey is flat
if the dizzy is out, it is a mare to get it back to time with the belt cover on, but you can just do it if you remove the front nut thru the front of the waterpump, and lots of wiggling of the rotor arm whilst wiggling the timing belt. trouble with 8v engiens is when the belt is off the dizzy will spin freely, certainly caught me out after i swapped the head on my old 1.6 driver :)
I'm thinking the dizzy is most likely well out, I've been turning the engine over loads while I had the head off, setting it to TDC. sure that all hoses are fitted up so I'm ruling that out as for an electrical problem, I don't think any wires are off but maybe the battery wasn't all that charged, its an old spare one that has been sitting so maybe its gone duff.
Cant see how messing with the water pump have anything to do with the dizzy? I thought that was on the alternator belt and nothing to do with timing?
Is it not best to set the engine to TDC, loosen the dizzy off and then turn that so the rotor arm is level with the notch, fit a fully charged battery and crank it over loads?
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waterpump wont have anything to do with dizzy, I meant undo the lower timing belt fixing nut thats attached to the bolt thru the waterpump ;)
Dizzy runs off the timing belt, via the intermediate shaft sprocket. Once you undo that nut, you can move the lower belt enough to get some slack on the timing belt, so you can move the intermediate shaft sprocket round a tooth at a time till the dizzy lines up :)
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wouldn't it be better to loosen off the cambelt tensioner to get some slack on the belt?
not to keen on touching any of the pulleys at the bottom of the engine really, with the cambelt off I can then set it up to the marks on the head, block and dizzy, by messing with the intermediate shaft sprocket it might cause more trouble?
I was hoping that its only a quick and easy job but this is sounding like a lot of extra work.
not that i'm going do it soon as the cars snowed in at the moment!
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yes obviously loosen the tensioner :grin:
all im saying is, loosen the lower belt cover so you have enough room to move the intermediate shaft. With the cover bolted down there isnt room to move the belt round on the sprocket. The intermediate shaft is only linked to the dizzy and the oil pump, moving it is not a problem. The issue with trying to move the dizzy is if its far enough out you may end up with the hall sensor hitting the block is all :)
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so I would be unbolting the crankshaft sprocket, as the intermediate shaft sprocket bolts to that?
(Ive got the haynes open trying to picture it, but still not sure)
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My method allows you to leave the pullies & cover on. Just kinda pull the front of the cover out a bit, to give you just enough room to move the intermediate shaft sprocket round a tooth at a time.
you could take all the pullies off and the cover completly, then you have unrestricted access to the timing belt, just a bit more work involved.
Just suggesting you can just take the front nut off to save you a bit of effort :)
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the marks on the intermedate shaft sprocket needs to be lined up with the notch in bottom pulley, will the intermedate shaft will turn freeley?
once these line up then slacken off the dizzy and twist that till the rotor arm and notch line up, set the cam sprocket mark then it should be ok to fire up? can I turn all these bits without fear of any vavles hitting any pistons?
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Ignore the int shaft marks, they arn't important. Just make sure the rotor arm lines up with the notch on the dizzy, thats all that matters :)
as long as you dont move the cam n crank from TDC you're fine, even if you did 8v is non interferance.
The intermediate shaft spins free when the belt is loose, what you want to do is move it round till the rotor arm is close to the mark, then you adjust the dizzy to make it perfect. You might even get away just by spinning the dizzy and leavin the belt alone, but it depends how far out the int shaft has moved.
Basically if its too far and you try to move the dizzy alone you could end up with the hall sensor/vac unit hitting the block.
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I would still have to undo the four allen bolts on pulley that the alternator belt goes round to get to the bottom cam cover thou? just trying visualize it all without going out to the car.
with the cam belt loose the intermediate shaft would of not moved, so by setting the other marks without the belt on the dizzy becomes well out? so what is needed is to turn the intermediate shaft till the rotor arm lines up?
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Just rotate the dizzy. Its very simple.
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Just rotate the dizzy. Its very simple.
thats going to be what I will try first, messing with the intermediate shaft is my last resort.
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the very front nut is accessible withoput takin the pulley off, its the front most belt cover fixing, screwed onto a stud/bolt thing that is pushed thru the waterpump. you'll see what i mean when you look at it.
as I have said several times, when the belt is loose the intermediate shaft can and will move, it spins freely ;)
The only thing it is attached to is the oil pump and distributor, there is nothing that will stop them from moving when the belt is off, especially if you messed about spinning the bottom end :)
edit: by all means have a go spinnin the dizzy, you might just get away with it, but if it hits the block then you'll have to move the intermediate shaft to bring the rotor arm round. Oyher thing you could do is take the dizzy out and move the rotor arm round a bit, just be aware the oil pump has a slot drive in the bottom o the dizzy so you'll have to move the pump drive round a bit as well to make it slot back into the dizzy.
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just had a thought, could I not turn the rotor arm end as its all attached or will there not be enough leverage and be really stiff to move?
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just had a thought, could I not turn the rotor arm end as its all attached or will there not be enough leverage and be really stiff to move?
The rotor is directly attached to the intermediate shaft, so you cannot turn it independantly to the engine. When you turn the body of the distributor, the rotor will stay in the same position, so you make the notch line up with the rotor.
The dizzy and rotor move independantly to each other.
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aye as above, the only way to move the rotor arm without moving the dizzy, is as i sad by taking the belt off the cam sprocket, taking off the front nut on the timing belt cover, and pulling it out a bit. this gives you enough room to move the intermediate shaft 1 tooth at a time. its fiddly but it works. I did it by pushing the belt downwards and twisting the rotor arm by hand, bit of wiggling and it will jump round a tooth at a time.
other alternative is to move the dizzy, if there is enough room to line it up without the vac unit/hall sender hitting the block, and also leaving it in a position where the hall sender wires can reach.
yet another option is to take the dizzy out, line up the rotor arm to the notch, spin the oil pump shaft so it lines up with the slot drive, then refitting the dizzy. Sometimes it can be a mare, but it will go in eventually.
last option is to take all the pullies and covers off, then you can take the belt off and move it all about as much as you like.
Edit: The reason I know about option 1 is because exactly the same thing happened to me. I was swappign the exhaust on my 1.6, and one of my exhaust studs was completly corroded. I tried everything but in the end I had to take the head off. Since I wasn't planning for this I hadn't really looked into it much, I took head off but leaving the belt and lower covers in place. I made sure I didnt touch the cam or crank in the mistaken belief that this would ensure the timing was spot on. I drill out the stud, refit the head and put the belt back on exactly as it was, but engine ran like a bag of spanners.
I did a bit more research and found that the intermediate shaft will move easily when the timing belt is loose, so I turns it over to TDC and check. sure enough, the rotor arm was out a tooth or so. I didnt have a timing light at the time, so I didnt want to move the dizzy as I would need one to get it exactly right. So I use method number 1, wiggled the belt and rotor till it moved round to the right spot. Put it all together and it fired up and ran perfect :)
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the easyest option is just to turn the dizzy if it wont go far enough just move the plug leads round
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the easyest option is just to turn the dizzy if it wont go far enough just move the plug leads round
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
That is so gash. DannyP, you should be ashamed of yourself!
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i was gonna say the same thing :grin: :grin:
my plug leads wouldn't fit :grin: :grin:
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my plug leads wouldn't fit :grin: :grin:
just cut them and add bit in with gaffa tape :laugh: :laugh:
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yeah thats wat i did
still wont start though
budge it and scarper motors INC.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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the easyest option is just to turn the dizzy if it wont go far enough just move the plug leads round
just cut them and add bit in with gaffa tape :laugh: :laugh:
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you should of cut the leads and crimped on some speaker wire to make them fit, gaffa tape isnt any good : :tongue:
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the easyest option is just to turn the dizzy if it wont go far enough just move the plug leads round
just cut them and add bit in with gaffa tape :laugh: :laugh:
you should of cut the leads and crimped on some speaker wire to make them fit, gaffa tape isnt any good : :tongue:
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bit posh that is
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i just sellotaped mine back together
works a treat so long as you dont want to start the engine :grin: :grin:
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Before you strip anything down, if you're happy that it was timed up OK, then take the plugs out and spin the motor over. Make sure it doesn't vomit petrol out the cylinders.
K-jet is like an old retarded person - one bang to the (metering) head and it can get knocked miles off course and have no idea what's going on. This can result in cylinders full of petrol very quickly and an engine that soon won't want to turn over at all, let alone start.
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Before you strip anything down, if you're happy that it was timed up OK, then take the plugs out and spin the motor over. Make sure it doesn't vomit petrol out the cylinders.
K-jet is like an old retarded person - one bang to the (metering) head and it can get knocked miles off course and have no idea what's going on. This can result in cylinders full of petrol very quickly and an engine that soon won't want to turn over at all, let alone start.
I'll keep that in mind, both cam and bottom pulleys where set to the marks so its hopefuly just a case of moving the intermedite shaft and resetting the rotor arm to the dizzy mark .
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well I've just been out with the car, set the timing marks (cam and crank) and spun the intermediate shaft to line up the dizzy (it was 180°'s out) and the sodding car just coughed once then slowly spun over, much like if the battery was flat, swapped over the battery for one that has been on charge and got the same result, not firing up and just the slow turning over of the starter.
I have no idea as to why it wont start!
while working on the car I've found a skinny white tube thats not connected that seems to come from the back of the speedo? have no idea as to where that goes and I've found that the bonnet cable is buggered and wont release that easy. so that will need replacing.
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skinny white tube isfor the MFA on your dash
if it isn't connected then that'll cause problems too
well done on finding your problem
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the skinny white tube is lose in the engine bay, where does it connect to? got the two other skiny tubes connected up on the air box under the idle screw, but this one i have no idea as to where it goes!
could i maybe have the injector hoses in the wrong order, as well as having a crap battery??
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the skinny white tube is lose in the engine bay, where does it connect to? got the two other skiny tubes connected up on the air box under the idle screw, but this one i have no idea as to where it goes!
i think it connects to some vacuum tube from the inlet system but i'm not sure on Kjet
could i maybe have the injector hoses in the wrong order, as well as having a crap battery??
didn't think it was possable ???
just lay them in the engine bay , and they sit where they connect :)
i think that it would still sort of run if you did as the fuel is still in the inlet :undecided: :undecided:
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could i maybe have the injector hoses in the wrong order, as well as having a crap battery??
It doesn't matter which way you connect the four injector lines - they all spray simultaneously and continuously - K-jet is stupid, remember.
Wants a photo of the white tube.
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K-jet is stupid, remember.
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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could i maybe have the injector hoses in the wrong order, as well as having a crap battery??
It doesn't matter which way you connect the four injector lines - they all spray simultaneously and continuously - K-jet is stupid, remember.
Wants a photo of the white tube.
glad that i cant go wrong with the injectors then!
the tube is a skinny white plactic one with a rubber sleve on the end, i'll take a photo and post one first thing.
have no idea as to why its not starting?
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take the plugs out and burn them clean, there probaly dripping with fuel, then refit plugs. try start again if it dosent go just give it full throttel and keep on crancking for about 15 seconds.
if that dosent work try putting a touch more advance on with the dizzy
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The white skinny tube is the vac line for the MFA, connects onto the vac pipe going from the inlet manifold to the brake servo. K-Jet is a b!tch, crack the fuel feed to the metering head, with the ignition of and see if fuel weeps out, check the spark by removing a plug and earthing to the block using insulated pliers, remove an injector, put it in a jam jar and crank it over. Double check the cam timing and make sure it's not the cam sprocket that is 180 degs out as this will make the engine turn over slowly as it opens the valves at the wrong time, tbh my money is on the cam timing.
This is an epic thread btw!
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BTW the engine will still run with the vac line disconnected, check for unmetered air getting into the system as well as K-Jet really dislike that!
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cam sprocket is SPOT on, lined up with the mark on the INSIDE of the sprocket (unless there's two marks?)
the accelerator pedal is not as high so that cable needs tightening up.
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check the cam is in the right spot with the pulley lined up, it is possible to fit the cam sprocket on the wrong way round! The lobes on #1 should be pointing up and away from each other, like this |\ /|
Also shine a torch down #1 to visually check piston 1 is at the top of the bore at TDC.
As dan says take all the plugs out and clean them up, had similar problem with a polo i did a head gasket on. after i cleaned the plugs it fired up right away!