GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: Ben Lessani on 27 January 2009, 00:32
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Hey ho troops. My car is bugging me again, the tappets have been noisy on and off for the past 2 years, they've been progressively getting worse as time has gone on.
I stripped them off the car (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=49436.msg886430#msg886430) at the weekend, numbered them, degreased them, cleaned thoroughly in thinners and bathed in oil for 20 mins. Before the clean, the plunger was rock solid, no movement whatsoever. After cleaning them up (no broken springs), they were just like new units, plently of rebound. When squeezed with oil in, it shot out the little hole with no problems.
I put them back in to the car, the cam was torqued properly, and set about building up the belts and rocker. I started the car, have run it up to temperature (tappets VERY loud), hit 80-100 degs oil temp and brought the revs up to 3.5-4000 RPM on an M'Way to get the oil pressure up to max.
I calmed it and brought the car back in under 2k, been driving over the space of 1 hr and just parked up.
The tappets are louder than ever before, so loud it sounds worse than a Ford push rod piece of s**t. Oil was Forté flushed and changed 600 miles ago with genuine VW filter.
Its either low oil pressure in the head (blocked channels, bad pump) - if so, is there any way of testing it? Is the amount of oil normal in the pic below if the car was stationary for 12 hrs.
Or the tappets are well and truly finished, even after a refurb (which I find hard to believe).
I've never had the oil pressure warning light on, nor the buzzer. My step dad does have an Audi coupé - so I might pinch his oil pressure gauge to quickly test my own.
What's going on ???
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6742.jpg)
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Although they may seem fine, it's possible that they are knackered and that you're not seeing that when they're cold.
Why don't you just replace them, if you're keeping the engine, that is....
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I have no quarms replacing them, hardly big money. Its just that I thought I may as well give refurbing a try - most folk tend to have a good success rate considering there is very little to go wrong on them.
No reccomended diagnostic checks to make sure oil is getting to the tappets?
DH, the engine stays, for now ;)
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I would replace them if I were you. They may have been cleaned and I take my hat off to you for giving it a go. :wink: (Just read your projects thread.) But they are old items and they don't last forever.
One more thing you can try, if you have the balls. Start the engine and bring up to temperature. Then rev it to peak revs and hold it there for about 3 seconds. This may force the oil in into the tappets. (I have had a little success doing this with aircraft piston engines and car engines alike.) But try it once and no more, otherwise you can damage the cam!
TBH though, the tappets are either shot or you have fitted the spring in the wrong position during re-assembly are not hydraulic locking as they should.
I hope you did not use a magnet to extract them from their bores! That WILL knacker them straight away.
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(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6750.jpg)
i filled my magnetic parts tray with degreaser and chucked all the little bits in it, i let them sit for a little while whilst i started banging the next tappet.
:embarassed: :embarassed: :embarassed: I think I killed them then. I'm a spaz sometimes.
I didn't think it was possible to fit the spring in the wrong position, there's only one way for it to go in. eBay tappets it is then, I'll drive round with these rattley cam killing buggers for the next 48 hrs, if it allieviates, I'm all set, if not, new tappets.
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Yup, ther're knackered then. If you use a magnet, it magnetises the tappet and the ball bearing, although spring loaded against its seat, will be held off its seat magnetically. You can get them de-goused, but TBH, it's not worth it. Now you know what the trouble is, don't try the high rev method!
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Darn it. Well that means that I'll have to do the stem seals whilst I'm at it, so I'll buy all the tools and bits and set about it this weekend.
How much do lairy cams go for these days ;)
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I'd try and spend as little as possible on the engine if you plan to go 16v soon. I very nearly chucked in a 2.0 bottom end, kent cam and tsr manifold onto mine, but knew a 16v would go in anyway so just waited a bit, rather than waste the time/effort/money. I then managed to get a complete car for £150, cost me £140 to get it back to Oxford. I then sold most parts and made my money back, still have a set of 15" RAs and also a 2.0 16v engine.
There's a little bit of encouragement :wink:
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I'm taking the cam off again - I'm going the risky route and clamping the timing belt for speed.
If the bits are magnetised, I'll replace the ball bearings with some of my spares and see if I can get the plunger to lock. I'm determined to make them work.
Never say die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you magnetize something yourself, usually you can whack it with a hammer to randomize the dipoles or do the same with a butane torch since heat will randomize the dipoles.
Will my magnets demagnetize if I heat them?
Yes, if you heat them beyond 170 degrees Fahrenheit (80 degrees Celsius) the magnets will quickly loose their magnetic properties. Sustaining these temperatures for a length of time or heating the magnet significantly higher than this will permanently demagnetize it. Other types of magnets such as Samarium-Cobalt have higher heat resistance.
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I'm taking the cam off again - I'm going the risky route and clamping the timing belt for speed.
If the bits are magnetised, I'll replace the ball bearings with some of my spares and see if I can get the plunger to lock. I'm determined to make them work.
Never say die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you magnetize something yourself, usually you can whack it with a hammer to randomize the dipoles or do the same with a butane torch since heat will randomize the dipoles.
Will my magnets demagnetize if I heat them?
Yes, if you heat them beyond 170 degrees Fahrenheit (80 degrees Celsius) the magnets will quickly loose their magnetic properties. Sustaining these temperatures for a length of time or heating the magnet significantly higher than this will permanently demagnetize it. Other types of magnets such as Samarium-Cobalt have higher heat resistance.
If you whack them with a hammer, you will damage them.
If you heat them up, you will also alter their hardness values.
Its not just the balls that are affected. Its the whole unit. GSF do tappets and they are not dear, so do the job once and do it properly. You will only be taking the engine apart again.
I once found metal in the oil filter of an aircraft piston engine, so I decided to look further. Everything checked out OK, so I went for the tappets. I found one with a magnet stuck inside it. The magnet was from one of those telescopic magnetic pick up sticks. Anyway, this caused the destruction of the cam shaft. The result was that I had to remove the engine from service and send it for overhaul, at the cost of 12k.
The report came back from the overhaulers that the iron filings from the camshaft had taken out the big end and the main end bearings as well as the oil pump. As a result, the propellor was also sent for a check over as a precautionary measure. Thankfully, that was ok.
Fit new tappets!
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if they have been noisy for 2 years it was to late to clean them anyway.
chould allways put some ford tappets in there
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I wasn't implying I was going to hammer them! I meant the hammering effect of the cam would surely demagnetise them, along with the 100 degree heat of the oil. They surely couldn't stay magnetised for long...
GSF tappets are the most expensive :tongue: ECP are chipper, eBay even more still.
Replacing them outright would mean I wouldn't spend more weeks trying to fix the same issue because I was too cheap to get it done right in the first place because I'm bitter it didn't work in the first place :grin:
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Just ordered these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140296764717
I'll post back with the results.
Probably going to order these too
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Vs160-Valve-Spring-Compressor-Ohv_W0QQitemZ130281004055QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item130281004055&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-Vs160-Valve-Spring-Compressor-Ohv_W0QQitemZ130281004055QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item130281004055&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-VS1671-Long-Valve-Stem-Seal-Pliers-16-24-Valve_W0QQitemZ360126117595QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item360126117595&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sealey-VS1671-Long-Valve-Stem-Seal-Pliers-16-24-Valve_W0QQitemZ360126117595QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item360126117595&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
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Nice one! :wink:
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Im suprised you didnt change them in the first place.
make sure you get pics of that valve spring compressor in action. looks interesting :smiley:
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I've just ordered the valve spring compressor and the stem seal pliers from here,
http://www.pvrdirect.co.uk/
Better prices than eBay, so I'll see if there legit if they turn up in the next few days :)
What do you reckon, genuine VAG stem seals or ECP/GSF, the price difference can't be vast, so I'm thinking VAG is probably best, plus a job I don't want to have to repeat.
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make sure you get pics of that valve spring compressor in action. looks interesting :smiley:
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6780.jpg) (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=49436.msg902396#msg902396)
tada! did it today, 4 hours all in.
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Well, I replaced the tappets and stem seals, both with brand new parts.
Started it up, tappets were clicking - then stopped almost instantly, AWESOME!
At least I thought it was. I decided to go for a drive after a days messing in freezing cold I'd go take advantage. I brought the car up to temp. drove it for about 10 minutes, then the tapping started again, it continued to do it for the next 30 mins, regardless of where the revs sat, so I have got seriously fed up and come home :cry:
F**king stupid heap, well annoyed.
Which brings me back to my original question, is it possible I've got low oil pressure in the head?!?!
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Well, I replaced the tappets and stem seals, both with brand new parts.
Hi
How long did you soak the tappets in oil before fitting them ?
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They were supplied in oil, pre-primed, so I didn't think I had to ...?
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Ben, have you tried presenting the car to a real garage, to see what their response is when presented with it?
It may be that this collection of internet numpties (which is what we are) might not have got the problem correctly diagnosed.
Annoying, but stranger things have happened at sea.
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it is posable to get low oil pressure in the head
if one of the oil gallerys is blocked then yes
but the gallery could be blocked in either the block or the head
one of my XR3i's (yeah i know sorry) had this problem after i added some oil system cleaner before i removed the oil
it dislodged some carbon and that got jammed in an oil way , i did what you did but it still tapped so i took the head off and pressure cleaned but it still tapped
so i used it as a doner car for another dagenham dustbin :grin:
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chould be running knackerd tappets for 2 years has knackerd the cam.
or camshaft bearings have worn causeing low oil pressure
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Ben, have you tried presenting the car to a real garage, to see what their response is when presented with it?
Not yet, as there's no garages in Manchester that I know of that are reccomended. Closest was GolfNutz - but last I heard, they've closed down.
I'm not sure if this would affect it, but I still haven't replaced the rocker cover gasket, GSF were out of them, so I'm getting a new one on Monday. My current one is a little mishapen (not brittle/broke), along with this, my oil filler cap broke the other day and it seperated, I clicked it back together, but one of the pins snapped.
These two are getting replaced on Monday, but I'm wondering if they could be contributory?
As it ran for about 10 mins completely silent, I would be under the impression that the pre-primed lifters were doing their job, and we're sat at full extension? Then without sufficient oil flow/pressure, the hydraullic lock stopped and they compressed down?
I've got 20l of fresh oil in the garage and I don't mind doing an oil change again, or even running flushing oil through if its possibly a blocked channel issue.
Is there any way I can measure the cam lobes to see if they have been worn, same applies to the cam bearings?
Also, just to confirm, I torqued the cam bearing caps to 20nm - this is definately correct?
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20 Nm is correct.
you can measure the cam bearings with plstigauge but TBH you can tell by looking at them, don't have to take the cam out ether, just pop a cap off, if see a patch that looks a bit brass like in colour thats the because it's the base showing through the white metal and it's all used up.
streeks showing mean pritty much the same thing, on higher mialage engines there will allways be scratches in the cam bearings normaly inline with the oil holes, they can be ignored as they do that, but goudges not.
with cams you can normaly tell by looking at the surface the colour should be even, oil tanned patches is bad, measureing is best way to tell tho, it can be just about done with a good vernier, measure the base circle , then measure the hight of cam, left and right side of each lobe. and compare.
normaly only one or two lobes go
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The cam bearings were in good nick, no signs of scoring or wear. However I can still check the height of the lobe(s). Although the cam is fitted, I should be able to rotate it enough to check each one at a time.
Funny thing was, just before I went out today (in a different car), I started mine up and there was no tappet noise whatsoever. I'm going for a drive again later today to see what happens. I am so confused :huh:
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awesome gti?
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Soooo, I appear to be having the reverse of almost everyone else on here.
When I start up from cold - the tappets are silent, the more the oil temp increases, the noisier the tappets get. When the oil hits 90 degs, they are as noisy as the old set.
Cold engine - Tappets silent
Warm engine - Tappets noisy
What could be causing this, obviously not a worn cam/bearings.
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could be that not enough oil is getting to the head. As DPB said with a airplane engine, id give the car an oil and filter change, as there could be bits of old tappets stuck in there, and do an engine flush too, i used wynns and it worked a treat.
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yeah or engine flush could make it worse :undecided:
as my earlier post !!
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yeah or engine flush could make it worse :undecided:
as my earlier post !!
engine flush all the way. if theres any blockages in the system they will get dessiolved. Id do this AFTER you changed the oil cap and the valve cover gasket so tehres more pressure in the system.
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Soooo, I appear to be having the reverse of almost everyone else on here.
When I start up from cold - the tappets are silent, the more the oil temp increases, the noisier the tappets get. When the oil hits 90 degs, they are as noisy as the old set.
Cold engine - Tappets silent
Warm engine - Tappets noisy
What could be causing this, obviously not a worn cam/bearings.
that choudll be caused by meany things. it is pressure related not tappet as the oil warms it thins and it's ether not getting pumped or more is getting out than should in some places.
that needs pressure testing, likely cumlprits are worn bearings, wrong oil or filter , poorly pump
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but if it loosens a large piece for carbon this can get lodged in the oil gallerys
but that was my one and only experience with it
i'd rather just change the oil 3 times in a row then new filter and oil :cool:
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Is everyone's solution always an oil change :undecided:
I'll grab a new oil filter, rocker cover gasket and cap tomorrow then - but I have zero faith this will make any difference. The oil was changed ~500 Miles ago.
The oil filter on it now is genuine VW. My step dad has an Audi Coupé - the oil pressure gauge on there is the closest I'm going to get to a DIY oil pressure gauge. Reckon if I hook it up, it should shine some light on if its maybe the pump? What pressure should the oil be at at idle and at 3k?
Now you mention the oil, it isn't VW stuff, its the OE replacement for Mercedes - that's all I could get my hands on at the time of a change. I've got 20l of brand new Renault Motrio 10w40 in the garage, I was just going to use this if I replaced the oil...
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a liter of atf degunks an engine very effectivly, only problem is if the oil seals are poor and been held together with crud it removes tgat crud aswell.
your engine is meant to run 10/40 so any 10/40 should be fine, with oil pressure measure from filter houseing then the side of the head, hot at idel 1 bar is ok should see 3 bar withg some revs should hold around there
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I got the new oil filler cap and rocker cover gasket today - the rubber/metal type. I fitted them up, ran the car up to temp. and low and behold, no noise at the start - more tappet noise as the engine warmed up.
I bought a new oil filter too and a bottle of ATF. How many miles should I run the ATF for?
I'm going to test the oil pressure at the weekend before the ATF treatment and I'll see what I'm sitting at before messing.
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I see on your project thread that you used a magnet for your collets. What are you thinking? You just knackered your old tappets with a magnet, so you replaced them. Then you use a magnet on something that comes into direct contact with your new tappets!
Magnets and engines to not mix. If you inadvetantly polarise a component, then that component will attract anything ferrous towards it, including swarf, iron filings etc, and just cause premature wear. I would not be suprised if now your collets and valves are causing the little ball bearing within the tappet to be lifted off its seat, causing you the same problems as before.
You should remove collets with a pair of long nosed pliers. More fiddley, but it could save you a whole new set of problems.
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Goddamit! That's it, no more magentic tools. But I can't honestly see 2s of being in contact with a magnet permanently magnetising a piece of steel, it takes a bit more effort than that surely? The only reason I used a magnet was because 90% of guides out there reccomended it, most tappet replacement guides reccomend using a magenet to remove the tappets before overhaul too.
If its a magnetic issue, then surely the following wouldn't apply,
Cold engine - Tappets silent
Warm engine - Tappets noisy
I appriciate the help thus far mate, I'm hoping the pressure test will shine a little more light on what's going on. Its really doing my head in.
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P.M'd
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grease on the the tail of a tie wrap is good for picing collets and stuff like that.
tbh i don't think that it would be possible to accidentaly magnatise a collet enough to cause said problems. but magnet + engine is bad news.
as for how long to leave the ATF there is no hard and fast rule. give it a couple of hours of warm engine or 100 miles. tho as with any harsh oil flush keep an eye on things. if the inside of the rocker cover had thick crusty deposits 50 miles or and hour as the oil is going to pick up a lot of crap and so is the filter. as allways any hint of pressure issues stop immedatly and change the oil and filter then.
the anoying thing is you now have the exact opposite symptoms to everyone elses tappet rattel , screams and shouts pressure but would have expected you to have been haveing at least the odd flick from the dash
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(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6734.jpg)
Not sure whether I posted or not, that was the nick of the inside of the rocker cover. There was no contamination anywhere else, not even on the baffle. It could be unrelated, but worth a mention.
With regards to the pressure, I've never had the light come on, and my journeys about include some fairly hard right turns with no sign of low pressure, no light, no buzz.
The ATF will be my last(ish) resort, after the pressure test anyway. Its got me well and truly baffled.
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i've always removed tappits with a magnet and so far no problems :undecided:
you learn something every day huh :shocked:
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seen what happens if a cam gets magnitised, that is scary but it had been stuck to an i beam for months with a big f off magnet
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Hi
I am learning so much from this thread.
Going back to basics, is the tappet noise the one caused when the valve edges hit the seats on the cylinder head or is it something different.
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it's caused by the gap between the tappet and camshaft, if the gap is to big the cam hits the tappet when it lifts the valve whears if it's correct the valve will sit on it's seat firmly but the cam and tappet will make contact before the cam starts trying to open the valve, ( with mecanical tappets ) hydralic ones do pritty much the same job but tend to stay incontact with the cam but compensate for wear tempriture ect untill they themselves wear or block, big bounus with them is no fecking about with screwdriver thou gadge and spanner settign the bastards up
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Hi
Thank you.
In that case, Ben's problem must be the cam timing or incompatible tappets.
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for some reason the tappets arnt wanting to take up the clearance when hot, thats something else
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Hi
Thank you.
In that case, Ben's problem must be the cam timing or incompatible tappets.
Cam timing will not cause the tappets to be noisy.
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could do if it was a long way out
but then there is a BIG problem
this isn't his problem
does sound like an oil pressure problem when it warms up , but why is a mistery at the moment :undecided:
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could do if it was a long way out
How? :huh:
Tappets take up the gap between the valve and the cam. Doesn't matter how far out the cam timing is. Any noise will be catastrophic destruction as the valves hit the pistons or pinking and back firing. Tappet noise...er no!
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klatter a valve snap the cam then a big rattle
(i was being sarcastic ) :grin: :grin:
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klatter a valve snap the cam then a big rattle
(i was being sarcastic ) :grin: :grin:
Don't I feel the dumbass! :embarassed:
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well working with lifeless germans all day could have something to do with the lack of the english sense of homour :grin: :grin:
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Very true, although not for much longer. Just lost this job! :cry: But I may still end up with Germans again, only next time in Frankfurt. :undecided:
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I'll hire you as my full time tappet repair man if you like?
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I'll hire you as my full time tappet repair man if you like?
:grin: :grin: :grin:
sure he'll take you up on that if you ever have a 747 just sat on your drive needing tappets changing :grin:
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He's out of luck, I've only got a 737-400 and an A330 :cool:
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Haha. Done tappets more times than I can remember on Lycoming and Continental aircraft piston engines, as well as your average car engine.
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ummmm aircraft engine ummmmm got any spare ones kicking around there ?
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mmmmmmmm merlin engine :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
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mmmmmmmm merlin engine :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
27 litres and 2500bhp of pure grunt. And all from a single SU carb with Miss Schillings oriface.
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yeah 27ltrs of torque :drool: :drool:
and we talk about torque increase using a 2.0 bottom end instead of a 1.8
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Been reading about this gauge business, useful info here (http://www.cscoupe.org/tech/gauges/gauges.html).
I was going to pinch the gauge off my step dads Audi Coupé to test it, but the oil pressure sender is pretty inaccessible - I'll have to remove a bunch of coolant pipes etc. to get to it, so thats not an option.
I'm going to have to go on the hunt to get a gauge for myself. Anyone have a list which shows what models sported them, so far all I know is Audi Coupé ...
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(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6783.jpg)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6784.jpg)
Well, I got my mits on a gauge, abeit an industrial one and I have some really perculiar results. I'm trying to diagnose what is going on, so heres what I can confirm.
I've uploaded a recording of the engine running, listen to my tappets here (http://ben.sonassi.com/tappets.wav)
When engine is cold, cylinder pressures are:
1. ~12 Bar
2. ~12 Bar
3. ~12 Bar
4. ~12 Bar
When the engine is hot (90 C oil temp), cylinder pressures are:
1. ~11.5 Bar
2. ~11.5 Bar
3. ~11.5 Bar
4. ~11.5 Bar
Cyl Head cold engine oil pressure 1000RPM ~4 Bar
Cyl Head hot engine oil pressyre 1000RPM ~3 Bar
If I rev over 1500RPM the gauge maxes out at over 5 Bar
When I turn the key to IGN, oil pressure light flashes
When engine is running, oil pressure light is off
If I ground the blue wire to the head oil pressure sensor, the light flashes on the dash
If I remove the wire going to the oil cooler pressure sensor, nothing happens
When the engine is running, the sensor is grounded
When the engine is running the wire going to it, is 12V
Spark plugs are black around the base and grey at the tips
Exhaust was smokey, but did not smell of burning oil, car also hadn't been run in 2 days (photo taken immediately after starting)
(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6785.jpg)
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i'm lost with it mate
just wonder if you have a dodgy set of tappets ??
i am really at a loss for you sorry :cry: :cry:
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I've emailed the seller and I am trying to see if he will do me an exchange.
Did you listen to the audio I uploaded, does that sound like every tappet - or just 1/2?
All this faffing about makes me a sad panda :cry:
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are you sure it is the tappets ??
sounds funny really !!!
not sure it is the tappets though , maybe just one noise :undecided: :undecided:
very strange fella
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Yeah, the recording isn't really an accurate represenatation, but its better than trying to explain.
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sounds like my mum using the sowing machine :tongue:
id try a different set of tappets and give the cam and cam bearings a good check over.
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are you missing any sockets or a nut :laugh: :laugh:
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Not a chance, I baby my tools to sleep!
Its not a loose rattle, its rhymic - its 100% definately tappets. You can hear the ticking as the cam slaps the bucket
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Not a chance, I baby my tools to sleep!
LOL me also 20k's worth of snap on to look after :wink: :wink:
i will think about your problem but i would try either a new cam or/and new tappets
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I can't listen to your engine from here, (Now in a hotel room in Gothenberg, Sweden and their firewalls are strict) but someone mentioned sewing machine. Is it all of your tappets or just some of them. If it were some of them, then the sound would be irregular at half engine speed. If all of them, then I am wondering whether you have a dodgy set of tappets or a worn cam shaft. Where did you buy the tappets? I got mine from GSF and they sound OK.
Next time you take the cam cover off, run a thumb nail over the cam lobes and check for any scoring. There is also a splash plate under the cam cover. Have you fitted that correctly? Or is the cam hitting it?
Turn the engine by hand until the dwell of the cam is at the bottom, (with the lobe sticking up) then see if you can get a feeler guage between the cam and the tappet. If the tappets are ok, there should not be a gap. (With engine warm) If there is no gap, then you need to start looking elsewhere for this noise. If there is a gap, then you still have a valve train issue.
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Have you STILL not found an ABF to buy to solve this problem?
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Have you STILL not found an ABF to buy to solve this problem?
:grin:
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I can't listen to your engine from here, (Now in a hotel room in Gothenberg, Sweden and their firewalls are strict) but someone mentioned sewing machine. Is it all of your tappets or just some of them. If it were some of them, then the sound would be irregular at half engine speed. If all of them, then I am wondering whether you have a dodgy set of tappets or a worn cam shaft. Where did you buy the tappets? I got mine from GSF and they sound OK.
Next time you take the cam cover off, run a thumb nail over the cam lobes and check for any scoring. There is also a splash plate under the cam cover. Have you fitted that correctly? Or is the cam hitting it?
Turn the engine by hand until the dwell of the cam is at the bottom, (with the lobe sticking up) then see if you can get a feeler guage between the cam and the tappet. If the tappets are ok, there should not be a gap. (With engine warm) If there is no gap, then you need to start looking elsewhere for this noise. If there is a gap, then you still have a valve train issue.
Thanks very much, very thorough. The guy I bought the tappets from is sending me out another set. So when I get them I will measure the cam lobe height and check the gaps with a feeler. The splash plate is a good point - but it does start of quiet and get louder, but I'll check the inside of the splash plate to see if it has any marks on it.
Does anyone know the correct height for the lobes on a standard 1.8 8v K-Jet EV GTi cam?
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measure them all, when cams wear therey wear quick and never evenly across all the lobes, one or two lobes will be shorter than the rest.
if you want to find the dodgey tappet there is a very quick way but you need steady hands and confidence,
take the rocker cover off, find a poker that you can prod the tappet bucket with but without getting in the way of the cam, start engine, apply pressure to each tappet in turn when goes quiet have found dodgey tappet. tho you want to be quick as the cam dose sprinkel oil when runnign without the rocker cover.
other thing to do is check the free travel, if can poke a blade over 0.1mm between the back of the cam and tappet there is an issue, tho this test can only really be done just after the enigne has been running.
another old trick you can try is puttign a stick against the cyl head and to your ear or get a stethocope ( very usefull tool )
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also try to spin the tappet when the cam is off it
think if memory serves me right you cant turn them by hand if they are ok :huh:
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also try to spin the tappet when the cam is off it
think if memory serves me right you cant turn them by hand if they are ok :huh:
I think they are designed to turn so that they wear evenly, otherwise you will end up with a valley on the top of the tappet.
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hydro tappets turn in opperation, that why hydro and mecanical lifter cams are diffrent . hydro tappet cams are ground so they turn the lifter a littel bit
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I have not read the whole thread but have you checked your oil pressure.
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read the thread fella
its good if you want to kill an hour or two
and yep he has :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Something else worth checking, bit of a long shot but is your camshaft 100% a hydraulic version.
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.......is your camshaft 100% a hydraulic version.
Hi
How do you tell the difference ?
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(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6742.jpg)
Something else worth checking, bit of a long shot but is your camshaft 100% a hydraulic version.
I should hope so.
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(http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/blessani/mini-CIMG6742.jpg)
Something else worth checking, bit of a long shot but is your camshaft 100% a hydraulic version.
I should hope so.
Yes I know yours is hydraulic but has the cam ever been changed.
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Not whilst I've had the car, but when I take it off again tommorow, *sigh*, I'll look for stamps/markings. But it did used to be quiet - this has only really started tapping constantly since the refurb, before it was very intermittent.
Well, I drained a litre of oil, filled her up with a litre of the finest Dex II ECP would sell, then had to figure out how to drive ~100 miles. So I filled the tank and just started driving, ended up in Blackpool, so 140 mile round trip and a respectable 44mpg later, I've parked her up for the night ready for an oil change tommorow.
I'll be removing the sump, cleaning the pickup, replacing all the tappets, putting a new filter and oil in and praying to every diety known to man. If anyone else has any reccomendations for me, post before 12pm tommorow and I'll check it.
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Reference the oil pick up pipe, punch a hole in the center of the gauze, should help you build pressure quicker,
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I drained the oil, pulled the filter and the oil was (albiet black) clean and free from metal filings, swarf etc. I dropped the sump and cleaned it out, the pickup was barely dirty, but I dorpped it out and cleaned it too. I took the cam out, measured the lobes - all even, pulled out the old tappets and put in the new ones.
I put on a new oil filter, and filled it with 4.5l of fresh 10w40. Spun the starter for 25s without the fuel pump on to prime the engine. Started it up, no oil pressure warnings, so thats good, it runs fine, no hesitance. Let it run for 15 minutes whilst I tidied my tools away, and guess what its exactly the same.
I've lost all hope.
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The only thing I can think and it is a long shot but has someone fitted a hydraulic head on a early block or maybe just maybe the head gasket is wrong and blocking a oil way.
I see in your other posts that you have measured oil pressure at the head have you checked it at the block which would confirm the above.
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oooh sh!t
thats all i can say :angry: :angry: :angry:
you say it was ok till you did the tappet re-furb ???
there MUST be some thing you have overlooked , or missed off i really cannot think what it could be ???
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All the pictures are here (http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=49436.msg921313#msg921313)
Maybe someone else can see something I can't.
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the cam is showing sings of wear, cant really say more than that from piccys tho
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I feel for you pal.
I have just had a look at your project thread and I noticed something about the camshaft that you should check up on. The top of the lobes are nice and polished where it has been contacting the tappets, but the dwells are coated with varnish. I mentioned it before, but you may want to check the tappet clearance to see if it is too big. I don't have the figures to hand, but the figures should be mentioned in the haynes. If this gap does not close up, then the tappets will sound. This means that either the tappets are at fault and not pumping up for some reason, or there is no oil getting into them.
By the looks of your old, new tappets, they are turning as advertised when the engine is running, so no problems there. They are just not pumping up.
If you feel the urge again, remove the cam and get a very light peice of ferous metal that is not magnetised. (Sprinkle some iron filing on it to make sure most of them don't stick! :wink:) Then position the ferrous metal in close proximity to the valve stem and collets and see if it is attracted to them. If it is, then your valves are polarised.
I know I harp on about magnetism, but some people get away with it, and some don't. Something is preventing the tappets doing their job and you need to find out why.
Failing that, you can fit old school solid ones, but these are a pain to set up and require adjustment by adding shims underneath them. So its cam on, cam off until you get it right. But when it's all done, you will always have some degree of tappet noise. That is the nature of solid lifters.
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Hi,
I'm new to the forum and not really a Golf engine expert so don't hang on my advice but.......
I've read through your project thread and it seems that you only started to get tappet noise after you used the Forte engine flush in January this year, is this correct?
Looking at your milage (180,000 ish) and the brown coating on you engine internals I'm afraid I would go with the theory that engine flushing has dislodged some crud which has blocked the oilway to some of the tappets, you obviously have oil pressure at the head so it could be local to the tappets.
Can you just confirm a few things for me as well, I don't know if these are related but they are interesting:
Did you have a period with no anti freeze in the engine when the coolant froze or did I misread?
When 500ml of coolant disappeared did you ever trace where it went?
At one point you had lots of mayo over the filler and the rocker cover but it appeared to be a one off?
Best of luck sorting this out and nice car by the way!
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oh my god
i hope i'm not speaking too soon, but its either great news or catastrophic news.
i think i've gone deaf, because i can't seem to hear any lifter noise :undecided: i just went and took the car for a drive as my last hope, a quick 10 miles up the m'way, 10 miles round some twisty bits and 15 miles home on the m'way.
not a hint of noise the entire way!?!?!?! i don't know whether they needed to bleed down, but leaving the car after running it before (immediately after fitting) appears to have resolved the issue (fingers crossed).
so all in all, it sems on my mission to solve my tappet noise, i've had to do the following
strip down engine to get to tappets
strip down each tappet and clean out
£3 mr muscle
rebuild engine
stripdown engine
replace valve stem seals
£11
replace tappets
£25
replace rocker cover gasket
£9
rebuild engine
fill engine with atf
£4
drive to blackpool and back to run in atf
£14
strip down engine
replace sump gasket
£10
replace oil and filter
£10
total £86 and about 400 grey hairs - was it worth it, hell yeah. i've never been so happy to hear the trim rattling, wind noise and my screaming passengers
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Fingers crossed all is ok.
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I've read through your project thread and it seems that you only started to get tappet noise after you used the Forte engine flush in January this year, is this correct?
yes and no, i've always had intermitted tappet noise, i think the oil change had highlighted it - plus i think the oil used (merc 10w40) really isn't any good for my car.
Looking at your milage (180,000 ish) and the brown coating on you engine internals I'm afraid I would go with the theory that engine flushing has dislodged some crud which has blocked the oilway to some of the tappets, you obviously have oil pressure at the head so it could be local to the tappets.
the brown is to be expected, its not sludge, just discoloration of the alu/steel.
Did you have a period with no anti freeze in the engine when the coolant froze or did I misread?
yep, i'm that stupid :embarassed:
When 500ml of coolant disappeared did you ever trace where it went?
not 100% sure, after just driving the car, the lights blinked on again. but im pretty sure its leaking from the rubber pipes where it meets the new metal one.
At one point you had lots of mayo over the filler and the rocker cover but it appeared to be a one off?
i've got no signs of hg issues, the mayo was from a torn breather, a wet air filter and nothing but 2 mile journeys for the past 8 weeks.
Best of luck sorting this out and nice car by the way!
muchos thanks
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Nice one. Fingers crossed for you.
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oh my god
i hope i'm not speaking too soon, but its either great news or catastrophic news.
i think i've gone deaf, because i can't seem to hear any lifter noise :undecided:
Fingers crossed for you here mate, I hope it's sorted itself.
I might still go with the blocked oilway theory but I guess it might have cleared itself which would be a result of the highest order!
I know you usually get brown stuff on engine components but I think the thickness of 'brown' often varies with milage and how often the vehicle was serviced. For me it offers a little bit of insight into how much crud is hanging around in other places in the engine but maybe I'm just spouting crap, it has been known!
Other than that I've got to admire your persistance with that car, it looks really neat and it seems you've had pretty much everything to bits at some point, it an impressive project thread.
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tip top fella
think this must have been the longest thread i have EVER read/written in LOL
fingers crossed for you
but i am with RJuk1982 on the forte theory with the blocked oil feed to a tappet
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I guess I'll never really know what caused it - I've changed/replaced and messed with so many things - its definately a tricky one.
But at least we've got a solution for other people with noisy tappets - refurb tappets, replace tappets twice after, flush oil with atf, change oil and filter, clean pickup and replace rocker and sump gaskets.
I think I'm going to start my own MK2 golf timing belt replacement service. I can get one off in the dark in about 5 minutes now.
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well done dude. glad to hear you got it sorted.
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2 weeks on and silent as the night, hells yeah :laugh:
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:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
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Phew. :smiley: Nice one! :wink:
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thank god , glad it is sorted fella
this thread will need its own server soon :grin: :grin:
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Lol! As long as I keep bumping it with pointless replies :rolleyes:
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ADMIN :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
:tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
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A hydraulic lifter, also known as a hydraulic tappet or a hydraulic lash adjuster, is a device for maintaining zero valve clearance in an internal combustion engine. The conventional means of adjusting valve actuation always requires a small clearance to be left between the valve and its rocker or cam follower to allow for thermal expansion and wear. The hydraulic lifter was designed to ensure that the valve train always operates with zero clearance, leading to quieter operation and eliminating the need for periodic adjustment of valve clearance.
The hydraulic lifter consists of a hollow expanding piston situated between the camshaft and valve. It is operated either by a rocker mechanism, or in the case of one or more overhead camshafts , directly by the camshaft. The lifter is filled with engine oil intermittently from an oil galley via a small drilling. When the engine valve is closed, the lifter is free to fill with oil. When the valve is opening and the lifter is being operated by the camshaft, the oil feed is blocked and the lifter acts just as a solid one would, oil being incompressible.
History
The first firm to include hydraulic lifters in its design was Pierce-Arrow in the early 1930s. Hydraulic lifters were popular on automobiles designed in the 1980s, but most newer cars have reverted to bucket-and-shim mechanical lifters. Although these do not run as quietly and are not maintenance-free, they are cheaper and rarely need adjustment because the wear caused by operation is spread over a large area.
Disadvantages
There are a number of potential problems with hydraulic lifters. Frequently, the valvetrain will rattle loudly on startup due to oil draining from the lifters when the vehicle is parked. This is not considered significant provided the noise disappears within a couple of minutes, typically it usually only lasts a second or two. A rattle that does not go away can indicate a blocked oil feed or that one or more of the lifters has collapsed due to wear and is no longer opening its valve fully. The affected lifter should be replaced in the latter circumstances. In extremely rare circumstances, a lifter can "pump up" and create negative valve clearance so that its valve cannot close. This is more serious as burnt valves will result. In all cases it is important to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for oil viscosity and quality.
... thread relevant and makes me nuuuummmmbeeerrr oooonnne! :laugh: :laugh:
... I've stopped now.
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And here endeth, this mornings reading!
Hopefully for good! :kiss:
(Nearly as boring as the constantly boring 'which fuel' post's that keeps rearing it's ugly head.)
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And here endeth, this mornings reading!
Hopefully for good! :kiss:
(Nearly as boring as the constantly boring 'which fuel' post's that keeps rearing it's ugly head.)
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
well now you mention it
SUPER UNLEADED FTW
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Lol! I'm subbed to the stupid ShadyP's sig thread, the Etka part thread and a whole load more - they all get on me ***
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Lol! I'm subbed to the stupid ShadyP's sig thread,
wheres that then ??