GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: fredgroves on 15 November 2017, 16:47
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Just wondering if placing a similar amount of weight in the rear would improve ride... the R always seems more stable over bumpy roads, even in a straight line.... wondering if its just the weight effect as a GTI/GTD is very very light in the rear.
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Have a heavy mate sit in the back all the time? In the middle of course....
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Before going to trouble and expense, just try a few bags of sand in the boot...one at a time and see if that makes a difference. Thinking about it, maybe try placing the bags under the rear seat...one on each side. Failing that, just get two mates to sit in the back and go for a spin.
I'm being serious.
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Something I noticed too.
I drove a friend's GTI a few weeks ago and it was the first thing I noticed. The car felt noticeably lighter going over the bumps. Some would say thats a great thing but I think I prefer the more planted feeling of the R.
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The Haldex unit is in a big block known as the final drive unit..which also house the "diff" which splits the central drive shaft to the two stub axles..
So also have the weight of the cardan shaft (front to back), plus the fact the fuel tank is a saddle type so the weight balance is better..
My estate handles way better than the hatch version....rear is planted & because of CSS front ARB (factory fit) & very soft rear ARB it rear steers..& can oversteer..so very neutral..
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Don't forget that if you increase the weight in the rear end...by whatever method, you will almost certainly have to beef up the rear suspension to cope with it.
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Just wondering if placing a similar amount of weight in the rear would improve ride... the R always seems more stable over bumpy roads, even in a straight line.... wondering if its just the weight effect as a GTI/GTD is very very light in the rear.
It’s the rear suspension design that makes the difference on an R, not the weight. You can feel the weight at the rear of an R but it’s not what’s responsible for the ride quality. It’s more the rear suspension design and settings. Even on 19’s my R was smooth. Both my PP GTI & Ed40 CS feel/felt far more nimble than an R but lack the composure.
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Thanks folks. Some interesting comment.
I was going to try sandbags actually, but was wondering if anyone guessed how much would be the approximate amount.
And then Exonian says about suspension.... how is it different?
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And then Exonian says about suspension.... how is it different?
VW brochure for MK7 2014 GTI manual UL weight 1351kg.......R manual 1476kg
As for different rear suspension...not really
The arms, links & wishbones are the same, subframe is different because of AWD....dampers & springs have their own settings to accommodate the extra rear weight of AWD.
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So 125kg difference... some of that will be the prop shaft, if we said it was 50kg for that, thats still 75kg over the back wheels, which is a lot.
Quite tempted to try some experiments this weekend :D
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When and how often do you notice this lightness of the rear in your GTD? On the track? Round town?
Can't for a minute understand why putting a bag of sand in a car would be deemed as beneficial or necessary?
Surely VW's engineers set the spring/dampers for the weight of the car... I am missing a point here?
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What I was talking about is why is the R so much more planted over bumpy roads than a GTD/GTI.
If you have never been in one or driven one you might not understand what I mean, but its absolutely a different ride and its almost certainly not anything to do with 4 driving wheels and has to be the weight.
Its obvious a GTI/GTD is superlight at the rear - how do you get 55k+ out of a set of rear tyres if the back end isn't light as a feather.
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When and how often do you notice this lightness of the rear in your GTD? On the track? Round town?
Can't for a minute understand why putting a bag of sand in a car would be deemed as beneficial or necessary?
Surely VW's engineers set the spring/dampers for the weight of the car... I am missing a point here?
I have the estate & notice the difference when given the same spec in the hatch as a courtesy car...
my estate is way better/planted...& I have a way lighter engine..
What you are forgetting is nothing to do with springs/dampers...but everything to do with weight balance/distribution...
GTD hatch heavy nose, feck all out back....
the best MK7 golf for weight balance is the "R" estate....I know a few years ago I did some calcs over on MK7 forums about this...
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What I was talking about is why is the R so much more planted over bumpy roads than a GTD/GTI.
If you have never been in one or driven one you might not understand what I mean, but its absolutely a different ride and its almost certainly not anything to do with 4 driving wheels and has to be the weight.
Its obvious a GTI/GTD is superlight at the rear - how do you get 55k+ out of a set of rear tyres if the back end isn't light as a feather.
Probably something to do with the Bridgestones :grin:
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Well, having tyres made from the same things they stick on the outside of the space shuttle probably is one factor yes :D
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When and how often do you notice this lightness of the rear in your GTD? On the track? Round town?
Can't for a minute understand why putting a bag of sand in a car would be deemed as beneficial or necessary?
Surely VW's engineers set the spring/dampers for the weight of the car... I am missing a point here?
You are missing the point for sure! How differently does the hatch handle when you have a couple of hefty chaps on the back seat? All about ground pressure and that will alter the handling for sure.
You used to see Mini Coopers being driven at speed on a winding road, lift the inside rear tire completely off the road surface..2x25kg bags of sand would stop that happening.
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Golf's used to cock a leg too... probably not any more, the ESP I suspect prevents it!
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Heaps of footage on the tube showing comparisons...some pretty scary stuff involving Mk7s...hard cornering showing only the inside 5mm of the inside rear tire touching the road...one or two showing it cocked completely! Surely they can't perform properly on 3 wheels.
No doubt that ESP helps the situation, but does everyone have that option?
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Heaps of footage on the tube showing comparisons...some pretty scary stuff involving Mk7s...hard cornering showing only the inside 5mm of the inside rear tire touching the road...one or two showing it cocked completely! Surely they can't perform properly on 3 wheels.
No doubt that ESP helps the situation, but does everyone have that option?
Look at any kind of hatch racing like the Clio cup and you will see them doing it all the time, if it made that much of a difference to the wheel doing feck all the cars wouldn't be set-up that way.
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Heaps of footage on the tube showing comparisons...some pretty scary stuff involving Mk7s...hard cornering showing only the inside 5mm of the inside rear tire touching the road...one or two showing it cocked completely! Surely they can't perform properly on 3 wheels.
No doubt that ESP helps the situation, but does everyone have that option?
Look at any kind of hatch racing like the Clio cup and you will see them doing it all the time, if it made that much of a difference to the wheel doing feck all the cars wouldn't be set-up that way.
I take it that you are happy to go around corners on 3 wheels in a car not prepared, or set up for scorching around a race track. May as well drive a Reliant if that's the case!
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Probably racing cars are stripped out removing even more weight from over the rear...
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Probably racing cars are stripped out removing even more weight from over the rear...
And the front...and the middle! Most of the race cars I've seen have the engine and the transmission at the rear.
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But more so on something like a clio surely?
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Probably racing cars are stripped out removing even more weight from over the rear...
And the front...and the middle! Most of the race cars I've seen have the engine and the transmission at the rear.
Talking about race/rally versions of production cars..
what you don't realise it that they add more central weight with a roll cage...
Then they corner weight the suspension..& having height adjustable coilovers means they can adjust the spring heights to get perfect cross axle weight distribution...
& then they bolt lead or steel plates down into the rear footwells or passenger ones...
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Probably racing cars are stripped out removing even more weight from over the rear...
And the front...and the middle! Most of the race cars I've seen have the engine and the transmission at the rear.
Not sure what race cars you seen but have you ever seen touring cars?
Most hot hatches will raise an inside rear wheel on very fast tight corners.
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What I was talking about is why is the R so much more planted over bumpy roads than a GTD/GTI.
If you have never been in one or driven one you might not understand what I mean, but its absolutely a different ride and its almost certainly not anything to do with 4 driving wheels and has to be the weight.
Its obvious a GTI/GTD is superlight at the rear - how do you get 55k+ out of a set of rear tyres if the back end isn't light as a feather.
That planted feeling is nothing to do with weight distribution which is why I said putting a bag of sand in the back of your GTD isn't going to make much difference. The difference in weight distribution between a GTI and R is minuscule. See the quote below from Motor Trend.
"The Golf R has slightly better weight distribution than the GTI (60/40 split, compared to 61/39), but the feel of the car is much more balanced. The recalibrated suspension no doubt helps, as does the power being routed to the rear wheels. You can be so smooth while pushing the Golf R hard that the traction and stability controls will rarely come on.
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Well, I've pinched a couple of bags of sand from the plant maintenance guys this morning, I'll have a play and report back!
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Well, I've pinched a couple of bags of sand from the plant maintenance guys this morning, I'll have a play and report back!
Well I didn't bother with sandbags but I got a mate to sit in the boot today to see if it made any difference going over those full width speed bumps that you drive up on and then drive off them.
He is about 14 stone and it made no real difference other than he nearly broke the rear window with his head. Nearly pissed myself laughing at a grown man calling me every name under the sun after I floored it and then hit the brakes.
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Ahhh but there is something else you needed to do... Swap the badge on the grill for one that says "R" ;-)
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And then Exonian says about suspension.... how is it different?
VW brochure for MK7 2014 GTI manual UL weight 1351kg.......R manual 1476kg
As for different rear suspension...not really
The arms, links & wishbones are the same, subframe is different because of AWD....dampers & springs have their own settings to accommodate the extra rear weight of AWD.
Ooops, didn't see these replies.
I never spent a lot of time crawling under my R but a casual glance is enough to see a few differences such as an axle and subframe! :laugh:
But I was more referring to the extra drive going to the rear, the traction control settings and the way it handles roll and rides better than my GTI PP did.
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I'm having a problem getting my head around all this now.
I originally thought the first poster was wondering about the difference in handling. Given that the R is some 257.5lbs heavier and has the benefit of AWD, one would think that adding some extra weight to the rear would change the cars handling somewhat (that's my perception anyway). I've had a number of rather quick cars in the past...some handled well, others not so impressive....adjustments to weight placement helped in some cases. Most notable was a VW Beetle to which we fitted a fully balanced, blueprinted motor and a few other 'goodies',which added about 25 pounds to the curb weight...you could lift the front wheels off the ground from a standing start and suffered from chronic understeer, especially if you tried to power on through corners! A dose of the sandbag treatment stopped all that! We ended up bolting a steel plate to the floor of the front luggage compartment. That was a great car...until some krunt stole it.
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I haven't read the entire thread. Has anyone mentioned the tyres?
What are the standard 18inch tyres on the Golf R?
The Bridgestone tyres are firm and don't have the best grip. My last car was firm and twitchy on Bridgestones. Goodyear tyres made it feel like a different car.
Lots of people have noticed that the Golf R is a more comfortable car than the GTI. I know that putting PS4 tyres on my current car has resulted in more comfort.
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a VW Beetle... sandbag treatment
Indeed Bazz, in fact, my original musings was because in the 70's we had a beetle and in the winter we used to add a couple of sandbags in the front to make it handle better on slippery surfaces.
And Daz...
Tyres, no, its not tyres. All of the R's I've ever been in are on factory BS's the same as my GTD's. Its not about handling, road noise or anything, its just how the R seems to swallow up bumps and stay planted.
One particular instance I remember was going over a level crossing - which is a big old bump... and it not really crashing like mine would have.
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I hope no one has tried sticking bags of sand in there boot :whistle: I've seen what happens when it goes wrong
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a VW Beetle... sandbag treatment
Indeed Bazz, in fact, my original musings was because in the 70's we had a beetle and in the winter we used to add a couple of sandbags in the front to make it handle better on slippery surfaces.
The difference was adding some weight over the wheels that are steering or driving the car has some potential benefit. Sticking some bags of sand in your boot of front drive hatch.... Well you've probably worked that out by now! :whistle:
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a VW Beetle... sandbag treatment
Indeed Bazz, in fact, my original musings was because in the 70's we had a beetle and in the winter we used to add a couple of sandbags in the front to make it handle better on slippery surfaces.
The difference was adding some weight over the wheels that are steering or driving the car has some potential benefit. Sticking some bags of sand in your boot of front drive hatch.... Well you've probably worked that out by now! :whistle:
That sounds as if you shouldn't be driving around with passengers on the rear seats. :laugh: