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General => Shows, events, track days, motorsport => Topic started by: JonLeeper on 01 December 2009, 09:19
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Well I completed my first track day at Brands Hatch on Saturday, and have to say that I am absolutely hooked. It was great fun and I will definitely be booking more.
The car ran very well but I have a couple of issues that I would like some input with.
The first is an oil issue. The car had a new filter, OEM spec from GSF, and full oil change prior to the event and I constantly checked to see make sure that I was not loosing oil during the day. In the afternoon, when I was actually getting some speed up, I had an issue where the car would burn a bit of oil after Clarks Curve, the long fast right hander. It was only here and it was gone by the time I finished the straight and entered Paddock. I stopped revving to over 5,500 / 6,000 and dropped the speed through Clarks and the problem went away. Is this and oil surge issue and would fitting a windage tray solve it? I have a new oil pump to fit, time ran out during prep, and am happy to get a windage tray and fit everything at the same time, but don’t want to spend on this engine if it is shagged.
The second is the brakes. They worked fine for the entire day, pulling up nice and straight but I was constantly locking up the unloaded rear wheel, I even locked up both rears at one point and gave myself a small wiggle! The fronts never even hinted that they were thinking about locking and continued to work throughout the day. The rears had new callipers, GSF, OEM disks, local auto factors, and Frodo up-rated pads, local auto factors. The fronts had late 16v hubs, spacers and callipers fitted with Brembo grooved disks, GSF, and GSF normal pads. The Tyres were the originals that came with the car, and I cannot remember the make, but they lasted well and keep quite a reliable temp, once warmed up, throughout the day. The pedal had quite a long travel but it was progressive.
Anyone got any ideas? Many thanks,
Jon
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windage tray is more to keep the oil away from the crank, you need a baffled sump! i have templates somewhere ill try and dig out for you, then its a case of cutting them out of steel and welding them in. you might as well put a windage tray in there at the same time though
if you cant be arsed welding plates into the sump, schrick do a baffled sump, but it costs a fair bit
the brakes sound like the rear bias valve on the rear beam needs tweaking. i cant remember what way you stretch the spring, but im sure someone else can advise
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When you got going a little quicker in the afternoon you were probably experiencing a little oil surge. A windage tray from a MK3 diesel will solve your problem, that will become more prevalent as your pace picks up and if you visit other circuits around the country with long fast corners.
As for you braking issue check out the front/rear bias regulator mounted on the N/S of the rear beam. It sounds like you'r car's got a little too much rear braking. I run as much front bias as possible. The regs do not permit us to re-plumb the brake system but if you are running a dedicated track machine it may be worth considering running a leaver type bias valve in the car.
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haha beat you nananana
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To much wheel spin off the line :wink:
If you stretch the spring you'll reduce the rear brake.
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My bias valve is just disconnected from the rear beam and I have never locked a rear.
Mark do you get oil surge at Brands? Not having driven that circuit I don't know if I would suffer but I certainly haven't suffered at Combe or Silverstone.
nick
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We're you driving the GP circuit, or the Indy?
Can't remember from your build thread if you replaced the master cylinder? That might be the cause of your long pedal travel, if not.
I've re-plumbed my braking system, so two of the ports from the M/C go to one each of the front brakes and there is a single line going backwards, which has a bias valve in it (screw type).
I did it because I was rebuilding the rear axle, so I had to re-plumb the entire back end anyway.
It took a bit of tweaking to turn the rears down enough, but I'm pleased with how it's worked out.
I know some of the 2WD guys struggle to reduce their rear braking on a bias valve enough - GTIs really don't need much rear-wheel braking it would seem
Jon, if you do think about fitting a bias valve, bear in mind you're re-plumbing the whole car.
Interested to know if Mark gets oil-surge at Brands - I'll be finding out if I do on Thursday.
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Interested to know if Mark gets oil-surge at Brands - I'll be finding out if I do on Thursday.
Hate you! I'm getting bad withdrawal symptoms, I actually keep dreaming about being on track and waking up dissapointed. I haven't even driven the car in about 2 months. Can't wait till next week when it gets some new boots and I can actually take it out for a blast to No-Rice and back.
Nick
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Interested to know if Mark gets oil-surge at Brands - I'll be finding out if I do on Thursday.
Hate you! I'm getting bad withdrawal symptoms, I actually keep dreaming about being on track and waking up dissapointed. I haven't even driven the car in about 2 months. Can't wait till next week when it gets some new boots and I can actually take it out for a blast to No-Rice and back.
Nick
Bet I get the blame for it :grin:
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Hate you! I'm getting bad withdrawal symptoms, I actually keep dreaming about being on track and waking up dissapointed. I haven't even driven the car in about 2 months. Can't wait till next week when it gets some new boots and I can actually take it out for a blast to No-Rice and back.
Don't go hating me too much.
This is the last month before I have a new mortgage.
2010 looks pretty f*cking bleak and track day-less from where I'm standing.
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Hate you! I'm getting bad withdrawal symptoms, I actually keep dreaming about being on track and waking up dissapointed. I haven't even driven the car in about 2 months. Can't wait till next week when it gets some new boots and I can actually take it out for a blast to No-Rice and back.
Don't go hating me too much.
This is the last month before I have a new mortgage.
2010 looks pretty f*cking bleak and track day-less from where I'm standing.
Rubbish isn't it. I'm 99% sure I'll get out on the Goodward day with the 928 lot as long as Richard decides it's going to happen. After that I'm into the period when I'll lose my job so it could well be my one and only trackday for 2010.
Nick
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i dont get oil surge but the sump has baffles welded into it, i do get fuel surge going down paddock hill bend though if the tank is under 1/2 full, so have to keep it topped up!
thats not a bad idea on your brake lines dh, i know someone with a similar setup on a fwd and he has to run 2 bias valves to get the right bias
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thats not a bad idea on your brake lines dh, i know someone with a similar setup on a fwd and he has to run 2 bias valves to get the right bias
I had to ask a lot of questions on a lot of forums before StephCassCar just happened to swing by Bristol for a cuppa and we talked through how best to do it.
Seems to work well enough for me. Obviously the big risk is (where the MC has two 'compartments') if one front brake goes, so does the other.
I'd like to think on a track car, which gets *quite* a lot of love and attention this is a pretty unlikely situation!
I've run the rear line through the firewall and down the side of the tunnel, inside the car. It then goes to the bias valve, which is mounted on the rear seat base, through the boot floor and tees to the rear calipers on top of the rear subframe - bit different from the boot floor onwards to what you'd do on a 2WD.
Remember for an MOT it should not be possible to reach the bias valve from the driver's seat.
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another thought, like on nicks where the spring has been removed you could wedge the valve open and secure it in different positions and adjust the bias like that. not quite as easy as on your setup but it would be free lol
you dont need an active bias valve on the rear beam when theres not much suspension movement tbh
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The second is the brakes. They worked fine for the entire day, pulling up nice and straight but I was constantly locking up the unloaded rear wheel, I even locked up both rears at one point and gave myself a small wiggle! The fronts never even hinted that they were thinking about locking and continued to work throughout the day. The rears had new callipers, GSF, OEM disks, local auto factors, and Frodo up-rated pads, local auto factors. The fronts had late 16v hubs, spacers and callipers fitted with Brembo grooved disks, GSF, and GSF normal pads.
Try putting on standard rear pads instead of the uprated ones, and put uprated ones on the front, this will hopefully add some bias to the front and remove some from the rear.
The pedal had quite a long travel but it was progressive.
This can quite often happen with standard front pads when they get hot, or you still have some air in your system.
Is this and oil surge issue and would fitting a windage tray solve it? I have a new oil pump to fit, time ran out during prep, and am happy to get a windage tray and fit everything at the same time, but don’t want to spend on this engine if it is shagged.
Don't think your engine is shagged, I would fit the windage tray first and see what happens, if the problem persists then think about baffling your sump, or go the whole hog and do both.
Glad you had a good day, its very addictive isn't it.
Paul
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windage tray is more to keep the oil away from the crank, you need a baffled sump! i have templates somewhere ill try and dig out for you, then its a case of cutting them out of steel and welding them in. you might as well put a windage tray in there at the same time though
if you cant be arsed welding plates into the sump, schrick do a baffled sump, but it costs a fair bit
the brakes sound like the rear bias valve on the rear beam needs tweaking. i cant remember what way you stretch the spring, but im sure someone else can advise
The templates for the baffles would be great, it makes sence to do it when I have to drop the sump off, it can only help. I will also fit a windage tray so that should, hopefully, fix the problem.
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We're you driving the GP circuit, or the Indy?
We were on the Indy circuit. Not that long but challenging enough and great for me, as a beginner, to try and string a few corners together in the afternoon.
Can't remember from your build thread if you replaced the master cylinder? That might be the cause of your long pedal travel, if not.
Mew has told me that he replaced the master cylinder when he owned the car. I cannot think that someone would replace it back with the smaller item but I will check. Do they look any different from the outside or will I have to remove it to find out?
I've re-plumbed my braking system, so two of the ports from the M/C go to one each of the front brakes and there is a single line going backwards, which has a bias valve in it (screw type).
I did it because I was rebuilding the rear axle, so I had to re-plumb the entire back end anyway.
It took a bit of tweaking to turn the rears down enough, but I'm pleased with how it's worked out.
I know some of the 2WD guys struggle to reduce their rear braking on a bias valve enough - GTIs really don't need much rear-wheel braking it would seem
Jon, if you do think about fitting a bias valve, bear in mind you're re-plumbing the whole car.
I don't mind replumbing the car, it is my track project so, as long as the greatest expense is my time, anything goes. I was thinking tht if I needed to fit a new balance bar I would investigate fitting two master cylinders and a bias bar at the pedal. Malcolm has just done this on a standard MX5 pedal box with a short length of tube, a Dremel and a bit of patience. It would only cost me the price of an additional cylinder and a bias bar.
Interested to know if Mark gets oil-surge at Brands - I'll be finding out if I do on Thursday.
Please let me know, I hope it is not just me!
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It's just you.
Danny and I didn't manage to conjure up any smoke at Brands and my Golf doesn't have a baffled sump, or windage tray.
Clearly this is because we both drive like big ladies in a very slow car.
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/\ /\ /\ :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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It's just you.
Danny and I didn't manage to conjure up any smoke at Brands and my Golf doesn't have a baffled sump, or windage tray.
Clearly this is because we both drive like big ladies in a very slow car.
If you wern't going faster than 110 MPH indicated then yes you are a big girls blouse! :kiss:
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If you wern't going faster than 110 MPH indicated then yes you are a big girls blouse! :kiss:
I have my racing driver's excuse ready: It was wet.
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If you wern't going faster than 110 MPH indicated then yes you are a big girls blouse! :kiss:
I have my racing driver's excuse ready: It was wet.
and here was me waiting for you to blame the ballast passenger :grin:
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It's just you.
Danny and I didn't manage to conjure up any smoke at Brands and my Golf doesn't have a baffled sump, or windage tray.
Clearly this is because we both drive like big ladies in a very slow car.
So how was Brands Hatch on Thursday?
Jealous I missed this. Did my last one for a few months at the end of November.
Got some plans for next year, the 928 days (in the Golf or the 928), Pembrey, Llandow, Castle Combe (as many times as possible), MSE airfield days, roll on next year.
Fitting a new clutch and lightened flywheel tomorrow, need to fit the polished and ported head over xmas, and fix leaking sump gasket and rear wheel bearing.
Paul
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So, if you did not produce any smoke, does this mean that my engine is knackered and ingesting oil? Why would it only do this at very high revs or during long corners? Is this an excuse to do something to the engine, and if so what?
More questions!
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Hi
if anyone does have the templates for the sump baffles that would be great...
where is the best place to buy a windage tray? I have mk3 16v :smiley:
thanks guys
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I think there's a windage tray available off the shelf, from something random like a TDI motor.
Sump baffles - I think Veegrumpgti16v has templates for them.
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Oh and Brands was OK - it was Syncro weather, so we spent a lot of the day keeping 911s and the like honest and bothering people who weren't expecting it. I have footage which I'll brush up in due course (DannyP driving, as he was the only one who went out without a victim).
It's a dinky little circuit in comparison to Combe or Goodwood, lots more elevation in it though.
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it seems a few want the baffle templates. ill try and upload a scale picture sometime.
any suggestions as the best way? pdf could work but where do i host it?
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pdf
Email it to me and I can host it if you want.
diamondhell@gmail.com
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it seems a few want the baffle templates. ill try and upload a scale picture sometime.
any suggestions as the best way? pdf could work but where do i host it?
Would be good to take a look at these. If your going to do them as a photo or pdf can you put scales in both directions (X + Y) plz :tongue: :laugh:. Makes it easier to import into CAD and get proper sizes out :wink:.
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they would only be a guideline. i got the shapes of someone else and remember having to do a bit of trimming. the gap for the oil is a bit rubbish as well and i cut mine differently
ill do a quick drawing and get it scanned next week :afro:
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I think there's a windage tray available off the shelf, from something random like a TDI motor.
Sump baffles - I think Veegrumpgti16v has templates for them.
thanks mate :smiley:
Have found windage tray on VAG-CAT your right it comes from a TDI motor
part number 037115220B
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I think there's a windage tray available off the shelf, from something random like a TDI motor.
Sump baffles - I think Veegrumpgti16v has templates for them.
thanks mate :smiley:
Have found windage tray on VAG-CAT your right it comes from a TDI motor
part number 037115220B
You can get the windage tray from GSF for about £25 to £30 or cheaper from veedubmachine
http://www.veedubmachine.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=baffle (http://www.veedubmachine.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=baffle)
Paul
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Right this has come to a surprising head, but to a head it has come! :rolleyes:
I was talking to a very good friend of mine, over a couple of bottles of red wine I admit, who was on R&R from Afghanistan and am now looking at organising a 5 day boys trip to the Ring and Spa in May this year! :laugh: It is initially only the two of us but there may be another by the time we go, dependant on actually going and expense etcetera. Thus I need to plan the trip and get the car in a state that it will not disgrace itself, or me, for the duration. I plan to borrow a trailer and tow it across, that far in a stripped out Mk2 does not appeal at all. Budget is limited but probably about another £500 to spend on the car itself, so some prioritising may have to be done.
So jobs that must be done, jobs that should be done and jobs that it would be nice to do but I will probably run out of time for………
Brakes:
These worked fine, apart from the locking the rear issue. Now this should be rectified by tweaking that rear bias adjuster so nothing to worry about here.
Suspension:
Overall the suspension is not too bad, the springs have lowered the car about 50mm and seem good, the shocks are a bit tired but still serviceable, I think! I have got hold of, as soon as they arrive, a full set of poly-bushes for the car so will have to fit these. I will also finish cleaning up the wide track pieces and fit those at the same time. Now I can fit most of the bushes for the front to the new components off the car and this should speed up the process. The rear beam will need to come off the car and I will try and get it cleaned and painted before it gets replaced.
Steering:
No real problems here, the wheel could do with being a bit smaller but I am not that bothered. If I find an e-bay bargain then this could be done otherwise it will be no change.
Interior:
The buckets and 6 point harnesses worked well so no problem there. There was a minor issue with the front screen misting up so I will need to fix something to prevent this. There is absolutely nothing left of the original heater so I was thinking that a small electric heater/de-mister fitted to the bulkhead would provide everything that I need. They can be bought for not that much and should be easily fitted into one, of the many, redundant positions in the fuse box. Talking about the wiring can I chop out any wires that are not attached to anything without compromising the ECU? I think that I ought to be able to but I have heard of people having problems with odd faults after cutting any wires in a loom, admittedly not with a 20 year old VW! I have a set of polycarbonate windows in the garage so these may well be fitted before we go.
Exterior:
Nothing really to worry about here. I need some new spigot rings for the 15†wheels but that should not be a problem, I hope!
Engine:
I am not at all convinced about this area, the smoking under high revs or prolonged cornering, still not being resolved. I have a new oil pump to fit and will baffle the sump, as soon as plans are posted, and fit a windage tray before I go but I am still concerned that there may be a fundamental problem with the engine. I am also thinking about overhalling the gear selection mechanism, new bushes and a weighted rod.
So there is some scope for a single large(ish) purchase for the car. There are three possibilities that immediately spring to mind. The first is a full cage, currently in the classifieds, a new engine, a slightly modified 2l 8v is on Pistonheads, or new suspension. What is the consensus, am I being totally optimistic, am I trolley mad, will I succeed?? :undecided:
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Get the bushes done. The 'ring eats bushes for sure.
Get the brakes checked over VERY thoroughly to make sure they're operating properly. The 'ring isn't hard on brakes, as it's a lot more open than most circuits, so your brakes will have time to cool between heavy applications. I would still recommend 280mms on the front - they are SO effective.
Get a standard heater fan and matrix in there. It rains at the 'ring a LOT and you want to have an effective ventilation and heating system. Why people remove heaters from their Golfs is utterly beyond me.
Have you replaced the radiator? If not, do so. Kesselchen is a BIG hill and you'll be going balls out repeatedly. You'll also wind up sitting in basically heavy traffic waiting to get on and off the track. On the track shouldn't be too much of a challenge, but coming off you'll be carrying a lot of heat in the motor and you need to be able to dissipate that effectively. Unless you know when the pump was done I'd do that, too.
A free-breathing head would be nice to be sure, but I would put money into making sure all the wearing parts are sound first before replacing a well-bedded-in motor with a new one, however hot it's supposed to be. The biggest thing you need out there is reliability.
Have fun, take care. Choose your insurer wisely.
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I've never trusted you and that underlines it.
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what have you ever had to trust me over?
scale on pics was wrong, i need to do it properly. plus no-one replied so i guessed it wasn't that important
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Didn't realise you'd removed the pics, I just thought you were posting a full stop. That's something not to be trusted.