GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk2 => Topic started by: knobby on 14 August 2004, 00:21
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Hi Guys
Currently have a Mk2 Golf GTI 8v. The engine has been to TSR to have some work done on it. Its been bored to a 1900, had the throttle body uprated, airbox modded and thats about it i think. it seems pretty quick but i have been offered a 1800 GTI 16v engine.
WHat would be quicker and how easy would it be to change the engines?
Cheers
Dave
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There has been a lot of discussion, sometimes heated debates, about this in the past so I suggest a search through previous posts.
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::) ::) ::)
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its probably less hassle selling your 8v and buying a 16v. theres a few different things like hubs, brakes and suspension that are different snf theres not that much difference in the cost of 8v and 16v cars.
just my opinion, but if your getting the engine and it installed cheap then go for it :D
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If you listen closely you can hear jv banging his head against the wall at the sight of this one ;) ;D
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Yep, do a search, there's loads on here.
but basically i think the general difference is IMO (I have had both)
8V - better in lower gears, if your doing alot of stop and start (city) driving.
16V - better top end, good for motorway driving etc
Good luck :)
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i wouldnt bother going for a 16v, id stick with the TSR lump. at least you know what you've got. you dont know what condition the 16v lump is in - and unless your gonna rebuild it, it not worth the effort. - there's probablly not much difference in performance - just the way its delivered. all 16v power comes between 4.5k - 6.5k rpm, 8v will be lower down the rev range.
you'll need the 16v loom and all the electronic ignition components also for the change over.
just to give you an idea of how std 16v's & 8v's compare.
a 16v will just behave like an 8v up until 4.5k rpm, the 8v will then start to tail off in power where as the 16v will still accelerate round to its redline (7.2krpm)
also, a 16v is worse for motorway driving due to the short 5th gear it has. alot of 16v owners run 8v gearboxes or at least an 8v 5th gear so that the engine aint screaming its head off on motorway journey's!!
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my 16v performs great on the motorway ???
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i didnt say it doesnt perform on motorways
some people perfer longer gears for motorway journeys
on a std 16v, doing 70mph in 5th gear you will be hittin 3400rpm
whereas 5th gear in my 16v, it'll be hitting 2900rpm
the engine isnt having to work as hard, and aint as noisy for motorway cruising
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For what it's worth, if the engine has been to TSR and had that ammount of work done (unless you have documentation to say otherwise ofcourse), I'd be very suprised if there's not been some mild head work and a cam of sorts.
If anyone was thinking about that level of tuning, and missed the opportunity whilst the engine was in bits needs shooting !!!
If that's the case - still with the 8V. It should have good performance with loads of life left ....
(Here's one for you K Jet boys, is there a soft limiter as with the digi GTI's ??? When's it kick in ??)
knobby - at what point in the revs can u feel the power tail off ??? If it's higher than about 5000 rpm then you might have more than u thought ;D
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this is gonna be another long thread, shhhh dont let '6 know!! :D
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it wont be, i have many new powers at my disposal ;)
to be honest, it'd be worth get his own 1900 8v rolling roaded to see what sort of power its kicking out then comparing against a std 16v
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For what it's worth, if the engine has been to TSR and had that ammount of work done (unless you have documentation to say otherwise ofcourse), I'd be very suprised if there's not been some mild head work and a cam of sorts.
If anyone was thinking about that level of tuning, and missed the opportunity whilst the engine was in bits needs shooting !!!
If that's the case - still with the 8V. It should have good performance with loads of life left ....
(Here's one for you K Jet boys, is there a soft limiter as with the digi GTI's ??? When's it kick in ??)
knobby - at what point in the revs can u feel the power tail off ??? If it's higher than about 5000 rpm then you might have more than u thought? ;D
8vs looking real good mate ;)
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Well i was sort of right, so don't listen to me :)
By Gambit:
or at least an 8v 5th gear so that the engine aint screaming its head off on motorway journey's!!
How would one do this? is it by changing the gear ratio in the box just on 5th?
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Hey Guys...
Thanks for all the comments.. see u boys are really getting into it..havent been able to get on the forum for a while seems its been offline.. i think im gonna stick with the 8v lump. fitted new plugs and HT leads today its runnin far smoother.. just need to sort out the tappets and im laughing (any good how tos about?)
Right please see links below to the documentation i have from TSR. seems its does have the standard cam but not sure what else has been done. Can u boyz shed some light on thi
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/tsr1details.jpg)
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/tsr2details.jpg)
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/tsr3details.jpg)
Look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers
Dave
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Hi, i'm no expert but it seems a bit strange to have all that work done & not have a lairy cam put in ???
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Ok this is what TSR's pack A head is. & I quote!!
The first stage in cylinder head improvements using the standard size 40mm inlet & 33mm exhaust valves fitted in GTI heads (38/31mm on 1.3L), these heads are ideal for fast road conversions. The heads have the valves, valve seats and inlet & exhaust ports reshaped and gas flowed for power and torque increases of up to 20%.
Suitable for use with unleaded fuel, heads are available in solid or hydraulic cam follower configuration for carburettor or injection engines 1.3 to 2.0L.
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thats what i thought... Bummer hey.. aparently the guy before me who owned the car his bro worked or owned TSR.. so he said..l
So whats next then... New Cam?
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Looks like it's been a rebuild with a few tweeks on a small budget ... nothing wrong with that at all though !
The head is pretty much standard, but obviously reconditioned - and the bottom end has have a new lease of life. Pretty good platform to carry on with I'd say, change the cam and some mild head work and you'll be away ... also it's a PB engine code so get her chipped ;)
I'd say the main reason for not putting the cam is purely the extra cost. If a cam was included you'd have to have a new ECU chip to raise the rev limiter and change the maps to make the best of it, then add a vernier pulley, getting the cam dialled in - it all mounts up! The bill probably would have been ?750 more easily.
Also the bill is dated 1997 - I'd hazzard a guess TSR's prices on MK2 engines have come down a bit over time!
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It all depends what you want out of it? From reading all your posts it looks like you are after the same sort of power as a 16v??
Firstly i'd get her on the rollers to see what the output really is, before you start chucking your hard earned at it. You might be quite surprised. At the end of the day if it ain't broke don't fix it!
Just my opinion,
Cheers,
Matt.
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A new cam is the way to go now as previously stated, if you can stretch to a new 4-1 exhaust manifold and if possible a performance exhaust, to really make use of the engines new breathing abilities.
Change the air filter as well, no point in choking the engine!
One minor point ! Why was the crank lightened and balanced and the flywheel untouched? chop half a ton out of the flywheel and it'll rev like a motorbike !
It'll be a b!tch in traffic tho......
ps. that reminds me, don't use a radical cam if it's your daily commuter.
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lol ... no lairy cam - BORING !!
What ever happened to idling at 4000 rpm at lights and having to drive it like an F1 car all the time eh ?
;D ;D ;D
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LOL ;D
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LOL.. very funny posts guys.. and thanks for the info.. seems i need to call TSR see how much its gonna cost be to change the cam.
I wanna get it put on a rolling road see what she puts out.. just im way down south in hampshire and it seems all u boyz are from up north.
Where can i go in my area.. n e one know..
Cheers
Dave
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Dave, Where in Hampshire, if your anywhere near Aldershot there's a place called SAS in Holder RD GU12 4RH. They have a website but it is called Tuning Japanese. They charge ?75 per Hr on the rollers.
Hope this helps
Rob ;)
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Yeah thats not far from me.. gonna call some places tomorrow and get some prices.
So what u recon the BHP will be??
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Just had a look at the TSR site and found the following:-
In 8V injection form, a 1.9l short engine fitted with a Pack A cylinder head and Eurotech 102 camshaft (Eurotech 202 in hydraulic head engines) gives a totally reliable 135bhp.
This is almost the same power output as a standard European Golf 16V but with masses of mid-range torque which makes this engine a winner in the Traffic Light Grand Prix!
So yours should be pretty similar. Had any traffic light GP's lately
Rob
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not really.. but was racing a new 1.8Turbo golf around some B roads the other day.. and he could keep up in the corners but i lost him on the straights he didnt have the inital power punch. this was with the older wheels on it i recon now with my 17's id have him for sure.
no off the light GPs yet though.. Where is the next big meet then around south?
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Got it booked in tomorrow morning at 8 for a rolling road test so we should find out the BHP tomorrow. Would be cool to know what u currently think it stands at.
its only gonna cost ?50 does that sounds pretty cheap to you guys?
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Sounds fine to me - on modern fuel injection cars there's very little tuning you can do improve the figure compared to say re-jetting / balancing a pair of DCOE. Really your paying for the engineer's time and the time it takes to tweak the best from your car.
I'd say you'll be running 125 - 140 bhp depending on the other parts around the engine - (exhaust - air intake / filter - fuel / ignition maps etc )
All the best - and get rid of those acceleration sapping 17's - 15's all the way ;)
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is it just a power run or is he gonna set it up for you also?
?50 is about an hours labour on a rolling road so id be expecting to get it setup
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I like the 17" rims.. i like the big wheel look.. And they sit in the arches which is new. gonna try putting it down to 60mm one day.
Hopefully the guy will do a little setting up for the ?50.. we shall see.. so my motor the 86 8v Golf, my understanding is that it is fuel injected so i would be able to chip the car...
Any advice on chips?
Cheers
Dave
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yeah i got a 86 8v too. wanna know about chipping it too??
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RESULTS
Just got back from the guys rolling road. We had a real hard time finding the place then turn up to this old boy with a rolling road in his garage. Apparently he used to race and used it for that but he knew his stuff and on the ramp it went. The golf didnt sound to great the exhaust was ratterling about, think i need to do up some bolts and it began to over heat, the guy said it was runnnin far to lean thus this would mate the engine run hotter, so he adjusted the mixture and off she went. Sounded good on the test and ran well.. the guy took it off for a spin up the road and was inpressed how it put the power to the road. he redlined it couldnt believe it.... and i thought i drove it hard.
Anyways to the important bit.... 127BHP @ engine and 98BHP @ the wheel. Must admit i did expect a little more power bit the guy thought it was about 10BHP more than a standard one. Asked the guy about changin the cam and he said he wouldnt as the standard cams were very good. Also recommended removely the newly purchased K&N air filter as this would help bring up mixture right.
Let me know wat u boyz think..
Cheers
Dave
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up by 10bhp sounds good,
just out of interest how much did it cost to have the work done on your car?
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I've ended up removing my 57i kit for the very same reason!!
One thing though - you say your Golf is 1986 - yet the engine code is PB from the worksheet at TSR - this says to me you've got a later 'Digi' GTI not a K Jet that a '86 car should have ... also if you've got a K&N that backs this up ....
Did u know this ???
127 BHP on stock fuel/ignition maps is about right - change the chip and you'll see 6-7 on a stock engine and more with yours! The main thing is you can get rid of the lag from when you floor it to the engine reacting to the full throttle position (it can cycle for up to 3 seconds !), so it's sooooooooooo much more drivable ;D
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Thanks for the posts again....
Question - just out of interest how much did it cost to have the work done on your car?
Answer - I brought the car for ?75 but got bills that show the engine work was ?1760.
Question -
One thing though - you say your Golf is 1986 - yet the engine code is PB from the worksheet at TSR - this says to me you've got a later 'Digi' GTI not a K Jet that a '86 car should have ... also if you've got a K&N that backs this up ....
Answer -
I fitted the K & N filter as it was recommended but todays results say not. When i got the car there wasnt even a filter fitted so i brought a paper one then the k & N Panel filter. I'm not sure what the engine is.. how can i tell whats been fitted. I have put some pictures below perhaps u can put some light on my rusty old engine. i know its a 1900 now instead of a 1800...
If i were to chip it.. can u recommend any chips and where i can get them from.
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/Image097.jpg)
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/Image098.jpg)
(http://www.getripped.co.uk/images/Image099.jpg)
Cheers Guys
Dave
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Sorry to disappoint you bud - but that's not a PB engine it's a K Jet . When you were talking K&N's I assumed you mean't a 57i Kit not a panel filter.
I'd get the documentation from TSR looked at to see if it's a mistake on the engine code or just not for your car as 120 ish bhp from a 'lose' 8 valve is more than possible!
As for the chipping - it's not gonna happen on a K Jet. The fuel and ignition is all mechanically controlled, these engines do not have an ECU like the later models do. BUT don't despare the K Jet 'out the box' has much better throttle responce than a digi !
Sorry if that sounds a little negative - I really don't mean to, just trying to be as straight as I can :)
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Did i read that right you paid ?75 for the car :o :o
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You need to open the head up now, this is now the restrictive part of the engine set up now. I have a similar engine - a C&R 1.9 but this has had a Kent Cam and flowed head, inlet mainfold and exhaust manifold fitting and i can confirm that its a flyer. My last car (I still have it but Girlf drives now with another engine), was rolling roaded at Stealth with 120 bhp and all i had on that was K&N and exhaust and that was a PB.
The engine in my car has done about 60000 miles and is nice and loose now, it smoked my mates 16v of roundabouts the other week and i am really happy with it. I was planning to get a 16v when i got this one as i wanted the engine for my Mk1 eventually, but this 1.9 will be a lot easier to install and its going to make a real flyer with a 1.6 Mk1 box.
Just remember, you wont have a smooth idle with a cam upgrade.
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yeah the car only cost me ?75.. but ive spent alot of time and money on it since.
so how bad is the cam at idle then.. would i be disappointed.. ive found one on ebay..
what u think?
Dave
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I like the Cam on mine, it burbles away nicely at idle. However if you must have a smooth idle its not a good idea.
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been offered a piper 285 degree cam for ?85... do i get it? and what are implications?
Dave
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Sounds like a good price, would open up the head a bit i should have thought