The Petrol vs Diesel debate

[GolfTi]

I agree.
The problem is all down to government policy over the last few decades which has favoured diesel.
Totally misguided in my view and I’m glad to see things are at last changing.

Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.

All good.

[I wanted a GTi]

I have never really understood the diesel in small cars thing. Why?

Trucks, SUVs, vans and agricultural machinery fine, but in a Golf?
No diesel hysteria as this has been my opinion for a long time. The term sootchuker has been around for a long time.

Loan car today from VW. An automatic diesel Scirocco. Diesel to save a few mpg and auto to waste a few mpg.

Hated it.

  It was the term sootchucker that I lost you at, try skipping forward to Euro 6 diesel cars.

Quite simple really, big vehicle or small car; diesel engine = more mpg & lower co2 = lower running costs.

I doubt many diesel drivers chose it because they thought they were helping save the planet, no matter what they say, but more because it saved them money.

It's expensive enough going to the petrol station every 10 days or so, but if I were driving a petrol car i'd be there twice a week.

Spot on.

[Sootchucker]

Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.
All good.

Wow....just wow...........

what a totally naive and narrow minded view. So anyone who drives a diesel car deserves to have their cars devalued and taxed to the hilt ? Sorry, but you came across as a bit of a tool. As Guzzle replied earlier, there are plenty of reasons why someone might want a diesel engine, but according to you they are all wrong and they should have bought petrol in the first place? According to the SMMT, this diesel scaremongering has only served to have people not trade up to newer cars, but stick with what they have, meaning more older, more polluting petrol and diesel cars remaining on our roads. New diesel registrations may be down by over 25%, but total new car registrations are down by nearly 10% for the private buyer. That's 10% less new cars on the road which is bad for the economy overall.

Also, when we are all driving petrol (or hybrids) after dumping our dirty diesels (even though Euro6 diesels are the cleanest in history), who do  you think the government will come for next ? They have to get their fuel duty and pound of flesh from somewhere, and it will only be petrol and hybrids they can target. And with the Diesel cars gone and no longer available to tax to the hilt they will be looking for the next soft target - and yes that's you my friend with you gas guzzling petrol with it's much higher CO2 figures. Make no mistake, whilst Nox is the current buzzword around Whitehall, the government cannot ignore CO2 emissions (which they still have a duty to cut), and current petrol technology whichever way you cut it, emits more Co2 than an equivalent sized diesel engine. The fact that Co2 have risen for the first time in over a decade as a result of the reduced number of diesel cars on the road says it all. In fact, Jaguar / Land Rover group had the following to say:

"Jaguar Land Rover group sales operations director Andy Goss has described the rise in average CO2 emissions that will result from falling diesel car sales as a “big, prominent issue” for the car industry.

Goss said that the absence of a credible market in plug-in hybrid and electric alternatives made the rise in CO2 emissions a short-term inevitability as tax changes and bad press discouraged buyers away from diesel and back to petrol. Average CO2 emissions rose by 1g/km in the UK last year, representing the first increase since records began in 2002."

Look I get it, you don't like diesel cars, and I get that. In an ideal world we would all be driving low emission petrol cars with the economy of a diesel engine, but we are not there yet. For some, the economy and efficiency of a diesel engine beats a petrol, especially if you are trundling up and down the motorway all day (yes even in a Golf). Trust me at 50-70mph there isn't that much in it between a GTI and GTD in pick up speed, and the fact that the diesel does this at much lower RPM's therefore lower NOx and lower Co2, means in some circumstances it's still the better choice of fuel.

It will be very interesting later this year / early next when all new petrol engined models come with a Particulate filter (just like their diesel counterparts). VW has committed to introduce particulate filter in all their  TSI and TFSI models by the end of this year. It remains to be seen if that means (like diesel) that short journeys will also be the killer for petrol's as well. As we all know, it's recommended to do a minimum mileage and speed with modern diesels to allow the passive regeneration process to complete (the soot and Nox being re-ingested and converted into harmless substances like nitrogen and water). To do this the engine and exhaust system must reach very high temps (for the exhaust typically upwards of >700°C), and this can only be achieved after the car has been driven for some time. If all petrol engines are subject to the same conditions I wonder what will happen to the less than 1 mile school runs ? Will dealerships be over-run with angry owners complaining that their engine management lights are on, and that they are being told to waste precious fuel giving it a run on the motorway ?

Interesting days ahead for both technologies I think.



 

[monkeyhanger]

I agree.
The problem is all down to government policy over the last few decades which has favoured diesel.
Totally misguided in my view and I’m glad to see things are at last changing.

Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.

All good.

You are completely misguided if you think a mdern direct injection petrol is cleaner than a Euro 5 or 6 diesel. Which do you think is more detrimental to health? Soot or NOx?

With diesel you get one or the other. NOx isn't really an issue for diesels belching out soot, the NOx is generated by much higher combustion and exhaust temps required for DPFs to operate effectively. NOx is also very short lived in the environment as it is an unstable molecule (NO2 / NO3) if it isn't being constantly topped by inner city traffic.

You look at the spotlessly clean exhaust pipes of a GTD and then look at the sooty pipes of a GTI or R. Finer particulates being produced which stay in the air longer and penetrate the resiratory system deeper when inhaled. Just because you don't see a plume of black smoke when you put your foot down in your GTI or R doesn"t mean that it isn't dirty.

Petrol and diesel tech are both dirty in their own way.

Taxation has previously been based on CO2. The government cares far more about taxation than health. That GTI or R is bringing in 50% more tax for the government as 50% more fuel is consumed. If we all switched to petrol tomorrow, would the government reduce its duty and other taxes on fuel to get the same revenue as before when we were all driving diesels?

Owning a GTD over a GTI made perfect sense to me - lower car tax, lower fuel costs, better residuals, clutcb able to take retune/box with confidence (a 240ps boxed GTD will always be a more entertaining drive than a stock GTI. I  wouldn't dare tune a GTI or R manual because of the "just enough" clutch VW fit.

[TwoSheds]

Yes interesting days ahead.

The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.

As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.

[Sootchucker]

Well said MH. 

As an interesting aside, as I've seen figures that over 60% of private new car sales are financed on some sort of PCP, I wonder what will happen when diesel values begin to drop significantly. Take my GTD for instance, when it's 3 years old my balloon payment will be just over £14k to purchase outright. Nearly 2 years ago when I bought the GTD, that looked like an attractive proposition. I was actually thinking of buying it outright - alliterate £14K for a perfectly maintained 184PS DSG car like the GTD with all it's toys seems good value.

That is of course until you now look at the value of these cars. Typically I always had collateral in my cars and would use that as part of the deposit in negotiating for a new car. If as I suspect, at car change time next year, my GTD is worth significantly less than the £14k it will owe me, there's no way I'm going to let a dealer offer me say £12k for it, I'll just hand it back to VW and walk away. That got me thinking, that's got to be really bad news for the dealers and manufacturers ? After all, as diesel continues to plummet in value, aren't the manufactures going to be left with fields full of second hand diesel cars, all worth less than their book value that no one wants to buy ?

Just a good thing there's a GMFV on these PCP's - good for the consumer, bad for the manufacturers.

[Sootchucker]

Yes interesting days ahead.

The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.

As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.

The problem will all the anti-diesel propaganda is that they have failed to mention that pushing diesel passenger vehicles off the road, will be a drop in the ocean as regards pollutants in our atmosphere, as for decades the biggest pollutants on the road are and still are trucks, Taxi's, Buses and the emergency services  - ambulances, police cars etc.

The London ambulance service on it's own has over 500 vehicles and London Transport nearly 10,000 buses ! Most of these are chucking out huge amounts of pollution, but it would be political suicide to go after these groups, as after all, replacing all these vehicles with more modern ones, would have to be paid for by the tax payer.

[maxie]

Yes interesting days ahead.

The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.

As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.

The problem will all the anti-diesel propaganda is that they have failed to mention that pushing diesel passenger vehicles off the road, will be a drop in the ocean as regards pollutants in our atmosphere, as for decades the biggest pollutants on the road are and still are trucks, Taxi's, Buses and the emergency services  - ambulances, police cars etc.

The London ambulance service on it's own has over 500 vehicles and London Transport nearly 10,000 buses ! Most of these are chucking out huge amounts of pollution, but it would be political suicide to go after these groups, as after all, replacing all these vehicles with more modern ones, would have to be paid for by the tax payer.

buses should be electric imho   trucks could be too as the bats could be fitted to the  trailers

[fredgroves]

There are loads of problems around the imminent future of road transport. Its a ticking time bomb that unfortunately our lovely government is paying no attention to because a handful of headbangers are using every cycle of government time and attention on one issue. I won't mention the issue specifically, but regardless of your opinion of that issue, its sucking up time that is needed to address other issues.

We are at a major inflexion point in transport right now. The right decision will make things better for everyone, the wrong will further condemn us to hell.

Problems are thus:

1) Burning dinosaurs is bad
2) Electric cars are not a real alternative due to both technical design and infrastructure support
3) Hybrids are not the answer
4) Heavier electric cars create more particulates than even current dinosaur burners
5) VED and fuel duty account for significant government tax revenue. They can't function without it. Your new zero emission electric car will still cost you the same in taxation as your old petrol one - it has to
6) This transition cannot be done in the time foolishly demanded by the government, because of all of the above.
7) Public transport itself is part of the pollution problem (buses in 2014 were almost as polluting per passenger mile as a car) and also a non-viable alternative - 25% of the UK population are non-urban dwellers, too big a proportion to simply forget and rail infrastructure is something we've backed away from for almost a century.
Lastly, the cliff edge of technology will kill car residuals - bad for everyone, but expect to see lease and PCP increase as the financial companies try to insulate themselves from the cliff edge. Cash buyers might think they are immune, but unless you plan to keep your car until its scrapped, you aren't.

All of this would be bad enough, had the actions of some deranged lunatics not already pushed diesel cars over the edge already.

Madness.

[Watts]

Blimey, you lot are a right cheery bunch this morning Think I'll just chuck myself over that impending cliff edge now and save all the bother