GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: Sootchucker on 23 January 2018, 13:54
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I was reading a couple of interesting articles this morning on the merits of buying or avoiding diesel passenger cars in 2018, that I thought I’d share with you along with my thoughts. They were quite interesting articles that made a few very sensible points. Basically the point of the article is whether in 2018, it makes any sense to buy a diesel vehicle, both from a financial point of view and an environmental point of view.
It got me really thinking as I must admit I have been considering lately whether I should chop the GTD in early and get some sort of petrol alternative (GTI or other). Problem is (for me), I actually like the GTD and I know that’s not politically correct in today’s climate. It has a great turn of speed (obviously not GTI or R speeds), but quick enough for the UK roads and that coupled with +40mpg (45.6mpg in my case over 15k miles), means it’s a really good all-rounder. Basically a GTI “lite” sacrificing a little performance in favour of economy and flexibility.
Now, we all know that in the press over the last year or so, diesel has been vilified as the devils spawn, and in some cases rightly so. Those old diesel cars and taxi’s that spew out choking black clouds of soot and other contaminants, should be looked at and measures put in place to help owners trade out of them into something newer and better. However this article went onto explain that despite the “awareness” over diesel emission’s starting in earnest back in 2016 with VW’s “dieselgate”, that actually the majority of Euro6 diesels (i.e. mandatory since September 2015) in independent test, produced in most cases only slightly more NOx than a lot of equivalent engine sized petrol derivatives, but also around 20% less CO2, and that that since 2002, diesel cars have saved 3.5 million tonnes of this harmful emission going into the atmosphere. Couple that fuel savings of again approximately 20% or more, then (according to the articles), and it seems that for some, diesel power still makes a strong argument.
It goes without saying I think that if your mileage is very small, then you shouldn’t’ even be looking at diesel due to potential issues with the DPF filter etc. and that in that case either a petrol or even a hybrid / electric vehicle is the better choice. Furthermore, for pure driver enjoyment (i.e. fast A roads with bends etc. then a petrol hot hatch will be more “rewarding” to drive hard than a diesel equivalent, however for peoples typical everyday driving (bit of town, bit of congested motorway etc.), then from a performance and driver enjoyment perspective, the gap narrows considerably, and the Diesel then starts to show its strengths with it’s quite often superior mid-range torque (though not in all cases) and much better fuel economy.
However for anyone who drives more miles, needs a big SUV or towing a caravan / trailer regularly, then a diesel makes more sense from the off. It does however cite on anomaly. Thing is, in doing their calculations to decide whether diesel was viable, they arrived at a minimum annual mileage of around 15k for the owning of a diesel. Reading on further, this was based around the payback it would take to recoup the initial purchase price of the car over a reasonable period of time. It was the case in both articles that they “assumed” that the diesel derivative of its petrol equivalent would cost approx. £1-£1.5k more too initially purchase. They used this as part of their calculations to look at fuel savings over a period of time to see when the diesel’s greater purchase price and typically better residuals (although that point could now be up for debate) would be re-paid and the owners would actually start to save in real terms against a petrol equivalent.
This got me thinking, so I dug out the VW price list. As I though, the list price of a brand new GTI 5 Door DSG is £29,935, and the GTD equivalent is £29,135. That means before dealer discounts, the GTD is already £800 cheaper. That coupled with its better MPG, means that based upon an average of 32mpg for a GTI and 45 for a GTD, annual fuel savings for approx. 8k per year are already at around £300.
Now I know there are members on here that would never even have a lift in a diesel (let alone own one), such is their hatred of the fuel – and they are 100% entitled to their opinion and I fully resect that, but as far as I can see diesel still makes an economical and environmental case (so long as it’s a Euro6 engine) today. As I stated before, I not going to try and convince anyway that a petrol version isn’t more enjoyable and fun, because it is, even I believe that, but in the confines of (around my area anyway) our congested roads peppered with average speed cameras etc. that a fast(ish) diesel even in 2018 can make good sense. I’ve also been studying the upcoming emission zones to be introduced around London and several other major cities, and it seems Euro6 diesels are exempt from these “taxes”, and that the next big thing indeed with be a total ban on the internal combustion engine (both petrol and diesel) in the coming decades.
The point of this long thread was I was trying to rationalize to myself (and the book keeper at home) that my wish to go from a Diesel GTD to a petrol GTI was a sound one. However having viewed the figures more carefully, it would seem I am (currently at least) much better off where I am. It would no doubt cost me many thousands of pounds (deposit payment etc.) to chop one for the other, to get an on paper superior drive train however one that except maybe only on the odd weekends, I’d ever get the chance to fully exploit ?
Just wondering if I am so out of touch, completely factually wrong or just an idiot :laugh:.
What are people’s opinions (petrol and diesel owners please comment).
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No, I agree fully with your analysis - it mirrors my own from 2017 when I swapped my company GTD for my own.,..GTD.
Escaping from the living hell of HMRC BIK and company car scheme CO2 limits meant that I *could* choose whatever I wanted. A GTI, an R, a GT86, a V8 Range Rover...a Nissan Leaf.
But I didn't.
The most likely choice was to swap to a GTI DSG simply because my previous Mk7 GTD was the best all round car I've driven for years. It costs more to buy the GTI, more to insure, more in road tax and more in fuel (£50 a month for my 20k a year).
Now don't get me wrong, I am a bit of a greenie but with only marginal NOx figures over and above petrol and lower CO2 I believe that a Euro6 oil burner is actually better for the environment as a whole (on a global scale).
One day when the dust settles, I'll probably choose a hybrid or maybe even pure electric. At the moment I have two issues with the tech in these:
1) Its early days still, the technology will accelerate and early adopters will look like something out of the dark ages.
2) In the case of hybrids, the way in which they are measured for polution is currently out of whack - effectively the electric part is only there to defeat the Euro Testing Cycle. After that you are causing MORE polution (by virtue of an underpowered petrol engine hauling the dead weight of the battery and additionally extra micro particles from tyre and brake wear caused again by extra weight)
So I happily took to another GTD. At the next replacement vehicle time (a little over 2 years time) I'll think again.
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I've never owned a diesel. I'm not a hater although my preference would always be petrol. I've never done enough annual mileage to justify a diesel however if I did, the current climate would not necessarily put me off. It could be one of those times when leasing or a pcp would be a good idea to protect yourself from future drops in value.
The comments above about hybrids are spot on. A non starter imo. More investment needs to go into improving the infrastructure in cities for electric cars as it is currently woeful.
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Before my gti the last petrol car I had was in 1998. I did a lot more miles in the period between then and last year but to be honest when I was looking at changing from diesel to petrol I weighed all the figures up and came to the conclusion that the petrol was only going to cost about an extra tank of fuel all in per month, so about 600 quid a year. I loved the gtd but looking back now I wish I'd bought a GTi instead. Life's too short really to worry about petrol or diesel so go with your heart.
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Plus it seems the Petrol derivatives seem more desirable to to undesirables
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Plus it seems the Petrol derivatives seem more desirable to to undesirables
Thieves with an environmental conscious :D
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Fully agree with all the OP has to say.
I'm surprised the GTD is cheaper than the GTI though - traditionally diesels have invariably been more expensive to purchase, but you live and learn.
Also, whilst diesel engines have come on leaps and bounds in terms of refinement, the improvements in economy have been smaller. However I also feel the improvements in economy on the petrols has been greater (although there is still a reasonable margin between the 2). I might be talking rubbish, but that's my perception of it all.
That said, I don't do loads of miles and we actually changed Mrs Gnashers diesel Astra for a petrol Qashqui for exactly the same reason (before we ended up with DPF issues due to the short journey's she does)
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I'm surprised the GTD is cheaper than the GTI though - traditionally diesels have invariably been more expensive to purchase, but you live and learn.
Yes I even asked when I was buying my GTD how much cheaper the GTI was... and was equally surprised when they told me it was MORE expensive!
I did check though :D
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I think the other issue to consider when picking which fuel to run is the size of the vehicle - perhaps not an issue for a Golf based forum but for me the low down torque of a diesel suits a bigger heavier (say Tiguan/Touareg/Sharan/Touran) much better than a revvy petrol engine.
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Have a read of the below, they reckon the o my way to fix the problem is to sell more diesel cars.
All the scare mongering isn't helped by so called news programme makers being so stupid that they mislead people. I was looking at the BBC news and they were using a heat sensing camera to show the harmful fumes comming from diesel cars. They said using this technology we can see the harmful gasses leaching into the air. What a load of cr@p, it was also showing the brake discs glowing so there were just using a heat camera to lie to people.
Anyway the link https://www.petrolprices.com/news/first-rise-co2-14-years/
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Personally I can understand what you are saying as the list price difference has now come in favour of the diesel so there is justification there alone, I have been lucky enough to own in order Mk 7 GTD . PP GTI and now a 7.5 R and whilst I actually love my R actually miss the drivability of the GTD if you understand what I mean. The R is fabulous but in the REAL world the GTD ain't far away would I buy another, no as I fear the backlash against diesel is too strong my son has just come out of his GTD and lost s##tloads and now has a PP GTI as the residuals dropped of the face of a cliff . If you are prepared to take a gamble with owning a GTD for the next few years go for it but with my own money over next few years personally for me it's a petrol all the way , mind you leasing is a different proposition as you are taking away the risk factor . You pays your money you take your chances !!!!! Did I say I love my R but that's another story !!!!
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Love my GTD !
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Yup that article is correct in every way except that it says co2 is toxic... It's not. Damaging to the climate but not toxic.
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I still see way more Mk7 & Mk7.5 GTD's than I do R's or GTI's. So I think there is still demand for fast and sporty diesels, and the diesel engine obituary is being written prematurely.
GTD's aren't as much fun as a petrol engine equivalent, but they should save you more money over a GTI the more miles you cover. I would think for now at least swapping from a GTD to a GTI is more of a decision made with the heart rather than the wallet. However much you think you might lose on your current GTD, I would imagine you'll lose more on a brand new GTI.
I looked at the GTE when I was getting my GTD, but decided against it. Hybrid and EV technology still has a way to go before it becomes more viable than the GTD for longer journeys and high mileage use. The environmental benefits are also debatable if you consider the composition and decomposition of the batteries, and not just the emissions.
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We have two cars a Tiguan sport and a Golf GTD both paid for and are 6 years old now , mileage is minimal 63000 and 52 000 , but at the moment the plan is to keep them both as we have cut our mileage loads , It took me 2 and a 1/2 months to do 1000 miles recently in the Tiguan I was doing 900 miles per month before .
I do take the cars on runs now and again to keep them ok and they get serviced every year .
I do really fancy a new Tiguan but it would have to be the R line but I cant justify spending that amount on a new car at this moment and I would seriously consider a petrol one if /when I get round to changing .
The garage have a few unregistered ones sitting waiting so getting one would be quite quick and they have grey as well , Tempting !!!!
I initially did not like diesel cars but after having tried one I was hooked and so was my wife and they have been brilliant cars to own .
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Fully agree with all the OP has to say.
I'm surprised the GTD is cheaper than the GTI though - traditionally diesels have invariably been more expensive to purchase, but you live and learn.
Also, whilst diesel engines have come on leaps and bounds in terms of refinement, the improvements in economy have been smaller. However I also feel the improvements in economy on the petrols has been greater (although there is still a reasonable margin between the 2). I might be talking rubbish, but that's my perception of it all.
That said, I don't do loads of miles and we actually changed Mrs Gnashers diesel Astra for a petrol Qashqui for exactly the same reason (before we ended up with DPF issues due to the short journey's she does)
GTI 245ps Vs GTD 184ps I believe maybe that is why the Petrol is more expensive than the Diesel ???
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The gtd has always been cheaper than the GTi in mk7 guise.
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An interesting set of replies. I really thought I'd be taken to task for even thinking that diesel might still be an alternative to petrol :grin: :grin:
In all seriousness, I think my decision has been made, in that I will keep the GTD until the end of the PCP (around 1 years time), then either possibly decide to purchase it if the diesel climate has changed for the positive and things have stabilized, or chop it in. TBH, not too worried about depreciation, and none of my previous 5 VW's have never really earned me any real equity (suppose VW got their sums right then), so worst case scenario, I just had the car back to VW, and they will have yet another possibly hard to sell second hand diesel on their hands. It's just not economically viable at this time to make a knee jerk reaction.
Despite my writings in that I think the end of the diesel engine has been very premature, I know that my next new car whatever it will be, will not be a diesel. I do love the lazy torque and the great MPG that diesel offers, but I also need to constantly be aware of running the car at reasonable speeds occasionally to avoid DPF issues (which I've got used to over the last 3 VW diesels and is sort of second nature now). Also, with the wife having a Polo Blue GT (1.4 TSI 140ps DSG), when I do occasionally drive that, especially in winter, I'm constantly amazed at how quickly the engine reaches normal operating temperature (approx 2 miles) compared to my GTD (approx 10-12 miles), and the lovely sound it makes and how free revving it is.
Yes I think petrol is in my future but not because I don't believe diesel has a future, (it has), but because my circumstances and small annual mileages no longer warrant the great MPG that the derv engine offers, and I can afford to take a 20-30% hit on economy to start having a bit more refinement and occasional fun. The problem will be, what do I replace it with ? I do love the Golf (have had 6 of them including 2 MK7 GTD's), would I want a 3rd MK7 (7.5) even if it is a GTI, especially with a MK8 rumoured to be coming in 2019/2020 - who knows, I guess it depends on finances at the time.
Now, I'm going to be totally out there now. Last weekend I went with a friend to test drive Skoda's new Karoq, which for those that don't know is the companies new compact SUV. Now I know the term SUV is a bit of a swear word, and I certainly agree to a point. The Range Rovers, X5's, Q7's Touareg's etc. that i see, tend to be driven by single occupancy drivers who use the car as a status symbol rather than an actual need and are gas guzzlers and emit huge amounts of Nox and Co2 (compared to a smaller hatchback) and therefore should be taxed much further. But the arrival of the "compact" SUV, that gives similar performance, emissions and MPG as a hatch are still quite interesting to me.
The Karoq is one such car. I have to say, I was seriously impressed especially after having recently sat in an new VW T-Roc which whilst looking nice had an awful cheap plastic interior. Well the one in the Karoq was anything but that. Soft touch materials, ambient lighting everywhere (including the ability to change colours), and very similar tech to the VW group, including the active info display, LED lighting, Lane assist, rear assist, passenger detections etc etc. I won't go into the whole thing like a review but trust me for just over £30k (before discount), that a fully loaded Karoq Edition with almost every option ticked. It's a lot of car for the money (with the 1.5 TSI 150PS DSG engine), and I have to be honest, it's the first Skoda I've actually looked at that looks really good from all angles. I was really surprised as I expected the build quality to be a little down from VW, but if anything it was better ! As I'm not getting any younger the slightly higher driving position suited me (although not true 4x4 ride height), in a car not much bigger dimensionally (expect height) or weight. Oh, I might have a contender :laugh: :laugh:
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I'm constantly amazed at how quickly the engine reaches normal operating temperature (approx 2 miles) compared to my GTD (approx 10-12 miles), and the lovely sound it makes and how free revving it is.
What are you doing man?
My GTD reaches normal temp (at this time of year), definitely in under 2.5 miles. I've noted this several times over the years when we've been talking about GTDs vs temperature and fuel economy. I remember very clearly the point on the road from my house where its warmed up and have just double checked google for the distance.
Now, I'm going to be totally out there now. Last weekend I went with a friend to test drive Skoda's new Karoq, which for those that don't know is the companies new compact SUV.
From IWAG's link earlier up this thread:
"The new unintended consequence here is that while people are moving away from diesel cars as the Government wanted, they’re not buying lower emissions vehicles, instead they’re buying high polluting, big engine petrol SUVs, which is leading to an unprecedented rise in CO2 emissions"
Sounds like you are going there too! (so did IWAG with his VW Peasant Crusher)
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Ah, not so fast Fred. Yes I saw that comment, however my current GTD (5 door DSG) is listed as 124 g/km Co2 and a standard GTI is 148 g/km.
The Karoq I'm mentioning (1.5 TSI DSG) is 127g/km, so hardy a Chelsea Tractor, and with MPG figures (albeit official ones) of
Urban - 41.5mpg Extra Urban - 56.5mpg and Combined of 50.4mpg,
it's much better on fuel than a GTI and not a million miles away from a GTD (about 16% worse on the combined cycle - offical) :grin: What I was trying to say is that the term SUV is all encompassing, however they come in all shapes and sizes (indeed the new Ford Ecosport SUV's are tiny !)
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Its 600kg heavier than a GTD... stands to reason that its more polluting and that's before you consider aerodynamic drag. You can't escape basic physics :D
And I think that's really what that article should have been saying - not just V8 Range Rovers, but any SUV style vehicle is heavier than its hatchback donor and shaped more like a brick.
Combine that with an increased CO2 output from swapping to "new smaller greener petrol engines" and you've got that rise in overall UK car CO2 emissions.
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For me it was the GTI speeeeeeed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_qA6U32NE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s_qA6U32NE)
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I chose the GTI for my company car as I wanted petrol again, a better noise, and for me, a hot hatch isn't powered by a diesel. With hybrids and full electric upon us, I saw an opportunity to have a fun car that realistically does't cost me a fortune. Drove a new GTD recently and it's a great car, but certainly not as responsive as the GTI. The GTI is also the most distinctive of the 4 performance Golfs (GTE, GTD and R). I'm getting around 33mpg on long term with a mixture of driving including lots of paddles and full bursts of acceleration. If I am thinking about fuel on a long run then its fairly easy to achieve 40mpg. The GTI makes me smile, so its worth it :smiley:
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Its 600kg heavier than a GTD... stands to reason that its more polluting and that's before you consider aerodynamic drag. You can't escape basic physics :D
And I think that's really what that article should have been saying - not just V8 Range Rovers, but any SUV style vehicle is heavier than its hatchback donor and shaped more like a brick.
Combine that with an increased CO2 output from swapping to "new smaller greener petrol engines" and you've got that rise in overall UK car CO2 emissions.
Come on Fred, you're teasing me now :laugh: :laugh:
According to the two brochures I have in front of me, a GTD, DSG 5 door has a gross vehicle weight of 1900kg, and a Karoc Edition 1.5 TSI DSG is 1934kg (so only 34kg difference) ? Indeed the unladen weight reported for both is actually 1416kg for the GTD and 1400kg for the Karoc, so to all intents and purposes, they are the same. Not sure where you got your 600kg heavier from ? Were you looking at their much larger Kodiac (their Touareg) or that smaller Karoc ?
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Maybe I found the wrong details, the Skoda figure came from the Skoda configurator, but I couldn't find the same detail from the VW site, so googled it.
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No harm no foul.... just teasing bud.
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I'm constantly amazed at how quickly the engine reaches normal operating temperature (approx 2 miles) compared to my GTD (approx 10-12 miles), and the lovely sound it makes and how free revving it is.
What are you doing man?
My GTD reaches normal temp (at this time of year), definitely in under 2.5 miles. I've noted this several times over the years when we've been talking about GTDs vs temperature and fuel economy. I remember very clearly the point on the road from my house where its warmed up and have just double checked google for the distance.
Now, I'm going to be totally out there now. Last weekend I went with a friend to test drive Skoda's new Karoq, which for those that don't know is the companies new compact SUV.
From IWAG's link earlier up this thread:
"The new unintended consequence here is that while people are moving away from diesel cars as the Government wanted, they’re not buying lower emissions vehicles, instead they’re buying high polluting, big engine petrol SUVs, which is leading to an unprecedented rise in CO2 emissions"
Sounds like you are going there too! (so did IWAG with his VW Peasant Crusher)
To be fair Fred one of the reasons I'm going for a Tiguan is because of my back problems and getting in and especially out of it is much easier in the Tiguan.
That and I've always liked them, even more so with the Mk2
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I travel 15k a year just going to work on average, and until last year was quite happily trundling around in a 55plate Passat 130PD. It was a great estate, and nearly never let me down. Maintenance on it was fairly painless as I'm not bad with the spanners, but it did start to become more expensive to run as mileage increased, and cost in general was going up. So I decided to part with it.
This took me down much the same route in terms of my thinking, and ended up looking at smaller hatches of which diesel was the first place I went. Averaged similar mpg to the Passat, £30 tax I think it was, reliable, comfy at motorway speeds, I tried a few different varieties and was looking at an all singing and dancing mk7 GTD. 15 plate for sub 14k which was a big draw as well.
I ended up with the GTI PP. :laugh:
Sure it doesn't do as many MPG's, but it's just as versatile and puts a larger grin on my face that I think the GTD ever could, especially when I get the LSD to kick in.
Do I think diesel is dead, far from it. I do think petrol will start having a resurgence though.
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I don't think anyone would doubt that a GTI would be MORE fun. Its just that at £100 a month ish extra for all the additional costs I would always be imagining what other fun I could have had for the same money...
I probably even would go so far as to say that with a better price point, I'd go down to a 150ps oil burning engine... if they bundled GTI/GTD equipment levels to a lesser engine'd vehicle.... and the resultant saving was another hundred quid... Doesn't work out like that though. To spec a GT or R line to GTD spec costs more than the GTD. Madness really, but I guess thats marketing for you.
Half the appeal of the GTD to me was the spec as much as the performance. It really is a very well loaded car with useful practical tech for the serious driver.
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I don't think anyone would doubt that a GTI would be MORE fun. Its just that at £100 a month ish extra for all the additional costs I would always be imagining what other fun I could have had for the same money...
I probably even would go so far as to say that with a better price point, I'd go down to a 150ps oil burning engine... if they bundled GTI/GTD equipment levels to a lesser engine'd vehicle.... and the resultant saving was another hundred quid... Doesn't work out like that though. To spec a GT or R line to GTD spec costs more than the GTD. Madness really, but I guess thats marketing for you.
Half the appeal of the GTD to me was the spec as much as the performance. It really is a very well loaded car with useful practical tech for the serious driver.
Agree there Fred, I think I tried spec'ing up an R Line to GTD and its far more expensive!
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I don't think anyone would doubt that a GTI would be MORE fun. Its just that at £100 a month ish extra for all the additional costs I would always be imagining what other fun I could have had for the same money...
I probably even would go so far as to say that with a better price point, I'd go down to a 150ps oil burning engine... if they bundled GTI/GTD equipment levels to a lesser engine'd vehicle.... and the resultant saving was another hundred quid... Doesn't work out like that though. To spec a GT or R line to GTD spec costs more than the GTD. Madness really, but I guess thats marketing for you.
Half the appeal of the GTD to me was the spec as much as the performance. It really is a very well loaded car with useful practical tech for the serious driver.
Agree there Fred, I think I tried spec'ing up an R Line to GTD and its far more expensive!
...and won't be worth as much at resale either.
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I have owned a mk6 and a mk7 gtd keeping each for 4 years. There wasn’t a day when these cars didn’t put a smile on my face, but I live in central London where the mayor and his acolytes don’t seem to care if your diesel is a dinosaur or a Euro 6. I decided to bite the bullet and go down the Petrol route after an 8 year hiatus. As another member wrote, on a day to day basis the GTD is all the car you’ll ever need, and more. I used man maths when changing to a mk 7.5 R in April and it’s a blast. My insurance dropped by £180 a year, with the same company, despite getting 3 points for speeding just before changing cars. I got a very good part ex and a good discount. So far, so good - my fuel costs have doubled. I didn’t by an R for frugality, but as a private owner it certainly comes as a bit of a shock. Whilst I don’t travel at excessively high speeds the R sound does encourage rapid acceleration up to the speed limit. In the GTD my wallet didn’t hurt as much when I did this. When all is said and done, I love the R, but the GTD was a more sensible option even on my 10k miles per year. The R makes me smile more, except when filling up.
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The GTD has done everything I wanted in terms of low tax and high mpg ( averaging nearly 46 ) but I'm concerned that our Government is getting anti derv and so the company car tax might get steep.
And that's exactly the point of the OP - you have become concerned because of non scientific based reporting, skewed by someone, when actually its a false message.
The 7.5 GTD is in a higher tax bracket than the 2014 7.
The difference between my 2014 GTD and my 2017 GTD in terms of CO2 is 109 vs 124. How did this happen? I asked and nobody could explain.... Probably something not publicly declared as fallout from the VW PR disaster.
Ok, so it'll cost me £70
Congratulations, you are filling the treasury.
Maybe I've just figured out what the demonization was actually about....
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Fantastic opening post Sootchucker :cool:
All of this anti diesel hysteria has made me want to keep my car even more!. :evil:
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The government policy towards older diesels is hardening it seems....http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/102431/mot-changes-2018-new-failure-categories-and-tougher-tests-for-diesel-cars
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After someone else mentioned it on here, here's an interesting article I'd not read before:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/road-cars/defence-diesel
Same conclusions as we've been making here though :D
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Watch Dirty Money "Hard Nox" on Netflix, that will put you off ever buying a diesel, especially a VW one.
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The rumblings from dieselgate are far from over. If you go on the Porsche configurator to spec up a Macan diesel it gives a warning that some body is looking into the model and there may be a delay in delivery until the required specifications can be met. That should chase away most buyers unless they are very determined to buy a diesel.
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I have never really understood the diesel in small cars thing. Why?
Trucks, SUVs, vans and agricultural machinery fine, but in a Golf?
No diesel hysteria as this has been my opinion for a long time. The term sootchuker has been around for a long time.
Loan car today from VW. An automatic diesel Scirocco. Diesel to save a few mpg and auto to waste a few mpg.
Hated it.
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Quite simple really, big vehicle or small car; diesel engine = more mpg & lower co2 = lower running costs.
I doubt many diesel drivers chose it because they thought they were helping save the planet, no matter what they say, but more because it saved them money.
It's expensive enough going to the petrol station every 10 days or so, but if I were driving a petrol car i'd be there twice a week.
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I agree.
The problem is all down to government policy over the last few decades which has favoured diesel.
Totally misguided in my view and I’m glad to see things are at last changing.
Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.
All good.
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I have never really understood the diesel in small cars thing. Why?
Trucks, SUVs, vans and agricultural machinery fine, but in a Golf?
No diesel hysteria as this has been my opinion for a long time. The term sootchuker has been around for a long time.
Loan car today from VW. An automatic diesel Scirocco. Diesel to save a few mpg and auto to waste a few mpg.
Hated it.
:laugh: :rolleyes: It was the term sootchucker that I lost you at, try skipping forward to Euro 6 diesel cars.
Quite simple really, big vehicle or small car; diesel engine = more mpg & lower co2 = lower running costs.
I doubt many diesel drivers chose it because they thought they were helping save the planet, no matter what they say, but more because it saved them money.
It's expensive enough going to the petrol station every 10 days or so, but if I were driving a petrol car i'd be there twice a week.
Spot on.
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Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.
All good.
Wow....just wow...........
what a totally naive and narrow minded view. So anyone who drives a diesel car deserves to have their cars devalued and taxed to the hilt ? Sorry, but you came across as a bit of a tool. As Guzzle replied earlier, there are plenty of reasons why someone might want a diesel engine, but according to you they are all wrong and they should have bought petrol in the first place? According to the SMMT, this diesel scaremongering has only served to have people not trade up to newer cars, but stick with what they have, meaning more older, more polluting petrol and diesel cars remaining on our roads. New diesel registrations may be down by over 25%, but total new car registrations are down by nearly 10% for the private buyer. That's 10% less new cars on the road which is bad for the economy overall.
Also, when we are all driving petrol (or hybrids) after dumping our dirty diesels (even though Euro6 diesels are the cleanest in history), who do you think the government will come for next ? They have to get their fuel duty and pound of flesh from somewhere, and it will only be petrol and hybrids they can target. And with the Diesel cars gone and no longer available to tax to the hilt they will be looking for the next soft target - and yes that's you my friend with you gas guzzling petrol with it's much higher CO2 figures. Make no mistake, whilst Nox is the current buzzword around Whitehall, the government cannot ignore CO2 emissions (which they still have a duty to cut), and current petrol technology whichever way you cut it, emits more Co2 than an equivalent sized diesel engine. The fact that Co2 have risen for the first time in over a decade as a result of the reduced number of diesel cars on the road says it all. In fact, Jaguar / Land Rover group had the following to say:
"Jaguar Land Rover group sales operations director Andy Goss has described the rise in average CO2 emissions that will result from falling diesel car sales as a “big, prominent issue” for the car industry.
Goss said that the absence of a credible market in plug-in hybrid and electric alternatives made the rise in CO2 emissions a short-term inevitability as tax changes and bad press discouraged buyers away from diesel and back to petrol. Average CO2 emissions rose by 1g/km in the UK last year, representing the first increase since records began in 2002."
Look I get it, you don't like diesel cars, and I get that. In an ideal world we would all be driving low emission petrol cars with the economy of a diesel engine, but we are not there yet. For some, the economy and efficiency of a diesel engine beats a petrol, especially if you are trundling up and down the motorway all day (yes even in a Golf). Trust me at 50-70mph there isn't that much in it between a GTI and GTD in pick up speed, and the fact that the diesel does this at much lower RPM's therefore lower NOx and lower Co2, means in some circumstances it's still the better choice of fuel.
It will be very interesting later this year / early next when all new petrol engined models come with a Particulate filter (just like their diesel counterparts). VW has committed to introduce particulate filter in all their TSI and TFSI models by the end of this year. It remains to be seen if that means (like diesel) that short journeys will also be the killer for petrol's as well. As we all know, it's recommended to do a minimum mileage and speed with modern diesels to allow the passive regeneration process to complete (the soot and Nox being re-ingested and converted into harmless substances like nitrogen and water). To do this the engine and exhaust system must reach very high temps (for the exhaust typically upwards of >700°C), and this can only be achieved after the car has been driven for some time. If all petrol engines are subject to the same conditions I wonder what will happen to the less than 1 mile school runs ? Will dealerships be over-run with angry owners complaining that their engine management lights are on, and that they are being told to waste precious fuel giving it a run on the motorway ?
Interesting days ahead for both technologies I think.
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I agree.
The problem is all down to government policy over the last few decades which has favoured diesel.
Totally misguided in my view and I’m glad to see things are at last changing.
Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.
All good.
You are completely misguided if you think a mdern direct injection petrol is cleaner than a Euro 5 or 6 diesel. Which do you think is more detrimental to health? Soot or NOx?
With diesel you get one or the other. NOx isn't really an issue for diesels belching out soot, the NOx is generated by much higher combustion and exhaust temps required for DPFs to operate effectively. NOx is also very short lived in the environment as it is an unstable molecule (NO2 / NO3) if it isn't being constantly topped by inner city traffic.
You look at the spotlessly clean exhaust pipes of a GTD and then look at the sooty pipes of a GTI or R. Finer particulates being produced which stay in the air longer and penetrate the resiratory system deeper when inhaled. Just because you don't see a plume of black smoke when you put your foot down in your GTI or R doesn"t mean that it isn't dirty.
Petrol and diesel tech are both dirty in their own way.
Taxation has previously been based on CO2. The government cares far more about taxation than health. That GTI or R is bringing in 50% more tax for the government as 50% more fuel is consumed. If we all switched to petrol tomorrow, would the government reduce its duty and other taxes on fuel to get the same revenue as before when we were all driving diesels?
Owning a GTD over a GTI made perfect sense to me - lower car tax, lower fuel costs, better residuals, clutcb able to take retune/box with confidence (a 240ps boxed GTD will always be a more entertaining drive than a stock GTI. I wouldn't dare tune a GTI or R manual because of the "just enough" clutch VW fit.
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Yes interesting days ahead.
The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.
As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.
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Well said MH. :smiley:
As an interesting aside, as I've seen figures that over 60% of private new car sales are financed on some sort of PCP, I wonder what will happen when diesel values begin to drop significantly. Take my GTD for instance, when it's 3 years old my balloon payment will be just over £14k to purchase outright. Nearly 2 years ago when I bought the GTD, that looked like an attractive proposition. I was actually thinking of buying it outright - alliterate £14K for a perfectly maintained 184PS DSG car like the GTD with all it's toys seems good value.
That is of course until you now look at the value of these cars. Typically I always had collateral in my cars and would use that as part of the deposit in negotiating for a new car. If as I suspect, at car change time next year, my GTD is worth significantly less than the £14k it will owe me, there's no way I'm going to let a dealer offer me say £12k for it, I'll just hand it back to VW and walk away. That got me thinking, that's got to be really bad news for the dealers and manufacturers ? After all, as diesel continues to plummet in value, aren't the manufactures going to be left with fields full of second hand diesel cars, all worth less than their book value that no one wants to buy ?
Just a good thing there's a GMFV on these PCP's - good for the consumer, bad for the manufacturers.
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Yes interesting days ahead.
The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.
As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.
The problem will all the anti-diesel propaganda is that they have failed to mention that pushing diesel passenger vehicles off the road, will be a drop in the ocean as regards pollutants in our atmosphere, as for decades the biggest pollutants on the road are and still are trucks, Taxi's, Buses and the emergency services - ambulances, police cars etc.
The London ambulance service on it's own has over 500 vehicles and London Transport nearly 10,000 buses ! Most of these are chucking out huge amounts of pollution, but it would be political suicide to go after these groups, as after all, replacing all these vehicles with more modern ones, would have to be paid for by the tax payer.
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Yes interesting days ahead.
The new petrol VW UP GTI is equipped already with a GPF (gasoline particulate filter) as does the German version of the Tiguan 1.4 TSI.
As an aside DEFRA studies show that brakes, tyres and road dust produce equal amounts of particulates to that of road vehicle exhaust gas so that will be a real challenge for the future.
The problem will all the anti-diesel propaganda is that they have failed to mention that pushing diesel passenger vehicles off the road, will be a drop in the ocean as regards pollutants in our atmosphere, as for decades the biggest pollutants on the road are and still are trucks, Taxi's, Buses and the emergency services - ambulances, police cars etc.
The London ambulance service on it's own has over 500 vehicles and London Transport nearly 10,000 buses ! Most of these are chucking out huge amounts of pollution, but it would be political suicide to go after these groups, as after all, replacing all these vehicles with more modern ones, would have to be paid for by the tax payer.
buses should be electric imho :) trucks could be too as the bats could be fitted to the trailers
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There are loads of problems around the imminent future of road transport. Its a ticking time bomb that unfortunately our lovely government is paying no attention to because a handful of headbangers are using every cycle of government time and attention on one issue. I won't mention the issue specifically, but regardless of your opinion of that issue, its sucking up time that is needed to address other issues.
We are at a major inflexion point in transport right now. The right decision will make things better for everyone, the wrong will further condemn us to hell.
Problems are thus:
1) Burning dinosaurs is bad
2) Electric cars are not a real alternative due to both technical design and infrastructure support
3) Hybrids are not the answer
4) Heavier electric cars create more particulates than even current dinosaur burners
5) VED and fuel duty account for significant government tax revenue. They can't function without it. Your new zero emission electric car will still cost you the same in taxation as your old petrol one - it has to
6) This transition cannot be done in the time foolishly demanded by the government, because of all of the above.
7) Public transport itself is part of the pollution problem (buses in 2014 were almost as polluting per passenger mile as a car) and also a non-viable alternative - 25% of the UK population are non-urban dwellers, too big a proportion to simply forget and rail infrastructure is something we've backed away from for almost a century.
8) Lastly, the cliff edge of technology will kill car residuals - bad for everyone, but expect to see lease and PCP increase as the financial companies try to insulate themselves from the cliff edge. Cash buyers might think they are immune, but unless you plan to keep your car until its scrapped, you aren't.
All of this would be bad enough, had the actions of some deranged lunatics not already pushed diesel cars over the edge already.
Madness.
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Blimey, you lot are a right cheery bunch this morning :rolleyes: Think I'll just chuck myself over that impending cliff edge now and save all the bother :whistle:
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Blimey, you lot are a right cheery bunch this morning :rolleyes: Think I'll just chuck myself over that impending cliff edge now and save all the bother :whistle:
To be fair if you did you wouldn't need to fork out for the DA so every cloud and all that :laugh:
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Blimey, you lot are a right cheery bunch this morning :rolleyes: Think I'll just chuck myself over that impending cliff edge now and save all the bother :whistle:
To be fair if you did you wouldn't need to fork out for the DA so every cloud and all that :laugh:
Just thinking about buying one brings me out in the wallet sweats :rolleyes:
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Truth be told we are all Lemmings and will go where we are forced by future governments, their policies and the incentives to drive us there (there's almost nothing as strong as cost of ownership) :grin:
If I end up in a hybrid that uses hydrogen, an electric cell with solar panels on the roof, and a windmill that pops out of the boot to top everything up when travelling at speed in 10 years then so be it. Trouble is (as Fred said), we are decades behind where we needed to be at this stage ! Rather than push Diesel cars off a cliff (as government has done), a more pragmatic and less knee jerk plan would have been to phase them out over a period of time in favour of alternatives fuels when they becomes more viable. As it is, killing off the diesel car in such a rapid space of time, threatens jobs, slows down the economy and doens't really put us into any other form of transport currently available that's appreciably better than the diesel / petrol combo choice we have now.
I can't worry about it as we will all be in the same camp and it will affect us all. What ever happens, will happen and I'll just go with the flow. I think the way this post has progressed though is that the vast majority of members on a car forum, know much more about climate control, vehicle emissions and technology than most politicians (or their aids).
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Blimey, you lot are a right cheery bunch this morning :rolleyes: Think I'll just chuck myself over that impending cliff edge now and save all the bother :whistle:
To be fair if you did you wouldn't need to fork out for the DA so every cloud and all that :laugh:
Just thinking about buying one brings me out in the wallet sweats :rolleyes:
:laugh:
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I agree.
The problem is all down to government policy over the last few decades which has favoured diesel.
Totally misguided in my view and I’m glad to see things are at last changing.
Price of diesel going up.
Value of diseasal cars going down.
Demand for diseasal cars falling.
All good.
Just for a second there- i thought i'd stumbled onto the Greenpeace Forum. :grin:
This has been a very interesting thread indeed. :cool:
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It's taken a few twists and turns this thread, but interesting all the same isn't it ?
As a little update, I'm now seriously considering whether it's practicable or not to purchase the GTD outright early next year.
I have two school of thoughts rattling around my head.
Thought 1 - early next year for relatively little money (in real terms) - £12k, I can own outright a perfectly maintained and mint GTD, in my own preferred spec (lots of extras and toys), in (IMHO) a great colour with only probably less than 22-25k on the clock (currently at 18k). Run it for about 2 years then see (by 2021) what the MK8 GTi brings to the party and then part-ex the GTD which would then be 5 years old. It seems from what I have read, that the tax on diesels will only change for newly registered cars (not existing cars which will remain at £140 - certainly for the short term). Also Euro6 diesels are also exempt form any currently planned inner city penalties (over it's petrol cousins), and that includes the 2019 London ultra low emission zones. So it seems all I'd have to worry about is the price of diesel going up relative to petrol ?
Thought 2 - Sell the GTD now (or very soon) whilst it's still worth something and buy a petrol car (be it a Golf GTI or even the new Polo GTI). I've seen over the last few months some considerable downwards movement in part ex prices on my car, so one issue with this school of thought is that as per the other recent thread about early PCP termination, I could still be in negative equity (albeit only just) with the car, whereas in December I had about £600 collateral. I could of course run the car to the end of the PCP then just had it back to VW UK after taking delivery of whatever petrol car I decided to order.
i tell you, whatever your persuasion (petrol or diesel), this and previous governments it seems have well and truly shafted diesel owners, and whether they want to keep their diesel car or not (some like me are happy with it's blend of looks, handling, performance and fuel economy), it looks like a lot of people are financially forced down the route of either keeping their old diesels until they literally fall apart (as they will be worth nothing), or spend money they never anticipated to upgrade to Petrol or Hybrid sooner than they had wanted to. Of course a net result of this (as we are already seeing) is rising prices on second hand petrol cars. Great for those who are selling, not so good for those wanting to buy.
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Yes, everything they have done in this mess has just made a mess. They clearly don't want actual action or they'd say something like "Euro 4 or earlier oil burner cars will be banned totally 1st Jan 2019. Bring yours to a government pound and we'll give you 5k in cash for it"
That would do it, but no...
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My choice would be to keep it. If you still like the car and obviously you know it's history, why be forced into changing it?
Even if VED goes up a bit and the fuel at the pump price rises, keeping a top notch diesel will still be way cheaper than having to fund a new vehicle.
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Heart says change, brain says keep? :undecided:
Unless there's something wrong with the GTD, or a big bill on the horizon, it doesn't make much sense to swap one Mk7 for another Mk7 that will be superseded in a couple of years anyway.
Unless its value is far less than the balloon payment, might as well hang on, use the savings to fund an extended warranty if need be, and see what the Mk8 brings.
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Heart says change, brain says keep? :undecided:
Ha, pretty much spot on !
Yeah, TBH, I think keeping it is the way to go. As you rightly say, even if VED goes up £50 per year it's a drop in the ocean against what I'd have to put down on a new car and then 3 years of continued payments. I already have the money sat in one of my Swiss bank accounts ( :laugh:) to fully pay off the balloon payment when the time comes, and it is a good car that will week in week out crack 43mpg at least and nearly 60mpg on a run. Suppose like you say, a decent warranty for the 4th and 5th years should alleviate any worries ?
My wife has already decided she will be buying outright her little Polo Blue GT next year (due on the exact same date as me), because she's not seen anything else (other than the new GTI), that really excites her, and Mel (that's what she calls it), is in the best colour, and has an extensive list of options I had to pony up for (Winter Pack, Navigation, Xenon's, Adaptive Cruise Control, Climate Control, Convenience Pack (Auto Lights and wipers & folding mirrors), App connect and curtain airbags. Oh, and it' currently only done 7.5kmiles in 2 years (as she only now works 2 miles away from home) :grin: :grin:
So I guess we already have a nice petrol engined car to hoon around it (with it's 150ps it feels really very sprightly). Here it is:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7379/26950760172_e109b94c98_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H4xG3Q)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7725/26950757462_a35d0fa0c4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H4xFf7)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7711/27045142475_556acf6cb4_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HcTqBV)
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What a smashing little Polo GT that is. Class colour/wheel combination. And a pokey engine to boot. What more does one really need? :smiley:
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What a smashing little Polo GT that is. Class colour/wheel combination.
Blue Silk is definitely the best colour for the Polo, but then I’m biased; my Polo GTI is the same colour.
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They really are great little cars. Actually this is the second Blue GT she's had (and both Blue Silk). The first was new in 2013 and when that was up for change, she asked for exactly the same but this time with a few extra toys. TBH, she wanted the GTi (and it wasn't that much more expensive), but two things stopped her from getting one.
Firstly, she loves the Blue Silk and at the time of ordering, it was still a Blue GT only exclusive colour (which was then opened up to the rest of the Polo range some months later), and secondly she wanted the active cruise control (ACC) that the MK7's have as she was so impressed with it. However that option wasn't available on the GTI, only on the Blue GT, so that's why she got another.