Author Topic: Is the hot hatch dead?  (Read 2204 times)

Offline MaggotsRus

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Is the hot hatch dead?
« on: 25 March 2024, 20:44 »
So always nice to throw something contentious into the mix. So having been on this forum for about two years, a mere apprentice by some of the standards of updates from those that post endless replies and at times essential guidance. But one common theme I’ve noticed is that many of the posts on this group are for failings of how the Mark 8 has faired or is doing. So having thought about this it appears that the Mark 8 has or is part of the downfall of the hot hatch. People have waited for long periods for their cars, on arrival some of those cars or earlier have had terrible warranty issues and poor build quality I think judging by the back up support those issues will persist and will be a huge cost implication for owners in the future. The prices now are falling despite what others think and the dealers / autotrader et al have stock that is simply not moving. So these are my thoughts having owned a 45 and other GTi’s beforehand is this hot hatch dead? ☠️ and will VW reinvigorate the loyal following to be convinced otherwise. Answers on the back of a postage stamp please 😉

Offline SRGTD

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #1 on: 25 March 2024, 22:47 »
I’m not sure the hot hatch is dead, but in its current guise I do think it’s a dying breed.

Some other manufacturers have dropped their ICE hot hatch models - Hyundai with their i30N and i20N models, Ford’s Fiesta ST is no longer being built and the Focus ST production is to stop if it hasn’t already stopped. I think Renault may have gone the same way with their RS models - I think read recently that they’ve said there’s no longer sufficient demand for hot hatches to make it viable for them to build them.

From what I’ve read on some forums, insurance companies also seem to be hitting hot hatches hard with significant premium increases, which is just another nail in the coffin.

VW - and I dare say some other manufacturers - will no doubt have ‘hot hatch’ versions in their EV vehicle model ranges, so the hot hatch will live on but not as we know it. However, I doubt the appeal of owning a fast milk float will appeal to the majority of existing ICE hot hatch owners. 

I can’t see my next car being a hot hatch. With the limited mileage I drive these days (around 4,500 miles a year) and the congested state of the roads, there’s little opportunity to drive a hot hatch as it should be driven, and I don’t need hot hatch performance just to go with the flow of the other traffic at 50-55 mph. My next car is highly likely to be a ‘normal’ run of the mill car and it’s also unlikely to be a VW - there’s nothing in the current VW range that appeals to me, and with VW’s recent track record of software issues, I’m not sure I’d be confident they’ve fixed those issues for the future.
2020 Polo GTI Plus; Pure White, DSG (because they all are)
Gone but not forgotten;
2016 Polo GTI; Blue Silk
2011 mk6 Golf GTD; Carbon Grey
2007 mk5 Golf GT (2.0 170bhp TDI version); Deep Black Pearl
2002  mk4 Golf GTI (the 150 bhp diesel version); Deep Black Pearl

Offline gixerste

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #2 on: 26 March 2024, 08:00 »
For me hot hatches are still a good compromise between performance and practicality. At present I've got a Mk7.5 Gti Performance Pack and if I were to change that, I certainly wouldn't  buy a MK8 due to all the software issues, but I would buy an F40  t128i or M135i as their build quality is excellent in comparison.
Indium grey D.S.G. Mk7.5GTI pp

Offline Hertsman

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #3 on: 26 March 2024, 09:47 »
For me hot hatches are still a good compromise between performance and practicality. At present I've got a Mk7.5 Gti Performance Pack and if I were to change that, I certainly wouldn't  buy a MK8 due to all the software issues, but I would buy an F40  t128i or M135i as their build quality is excellent in comparison.

Would stick to the M135i as an alternative, I have had a 66 plate R, 69 plate TCR and now a 128Ti as my last three rides, and wife currently has 2109 R and been asked more about what the 128Ti is more than others, so that's looks ticked, the cabin and media are excellent (though i think the MK 7.5 interior is excellent also) but the drive of the 128Ti does let it down.

The gearbox can get a little lazy in comfort, so you have to be permanently in sport, which is not really a problem, ratio is good enough for all conditions, but Sport + (flick lever to left) is way too high in ratio.

It has no real exhaust note at all, you do not get any deep tones or overruns that get in the Golf R, it's pretty mute.

The worst aspect however is the torque steer and in wet, it feels a little insecure when on a B road, so you just do not push it on.

The ride is good, and passengers love the car as its quite lush inside, we done plenty of family and friends trips out in it, and it ticks all the boxes as a day to day car.

The engine itself is lovely, super strong, linear pull, goes in a straight line rapidly as quick as all cars mentioned above in the dry.

The 128Ti is a great car, really good stab at a GTI by BMW, it looks great and has excellent interior and media, but drive does let it down at highest level for the driver, and even though have 18 months left of the lease, already counting down days till can get myself a MK 7.5 R to replace it, which think is the best VW have produced all around.

On the hot hatchback subject, I like most on here,  are the target market, its all ever driven, and would be open to an EV hot hatch back, but there would be some convincing, it would have to look the part, have interior up to standard of the BMW and the MK 7.5 R in quality and it would have to drive them twisty B roads in same manner also, and maybe you will miss the exhaust note, maybe some fakery or some other electric motor 'wind up' makes up for it, but the drive is still the most important factor.

Infrastructure is then the next hurdle, its nowhere near there for those without drive, and the final hurdle, new car prices and more so EV, with presently huge depreciation on GFV would not presently have you go near one at small mortgage costs!

This is why happy to go little back in time, to a MK 7.5 R, such a great car at reasonable cost compared to the new, which have priced me completely out of consideration.
Present - BMW 128Ti Alpine White, 18" Performance Tyres, Sun Protection Glass, Parking Assist, Heated Steering, Boston Trim, Split Folding Rear Seats, Electric Lumbar Support
- 2nd car: 2019 Golf R DSG Pure White 19" Black Pretoria, Privacy Glass, Rear View Camera, Dynaudio, Keyless
- 2019 Pure Grey GTI TCR 5 Door DSG Reifinitz Wheel DCC Climate Screen 90% Tint
- 2016 Lapiz Blue Golf R 5 Door DSG Pretoria DCC
- 2013 Pure White GTD 5 Door DSG DCC

Offline fredgroves

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #4 on: 26 March 2024, 10:41 »
Is the ICE hot hatch dead?

Yes, I believe it is simply because of the OEM's shift to BEV.

The ICE hot hatch was a low volume sale numbers, as such its ripe for nipping off as the makers cut their ranges as ALL ICE models are run outs at this point.

Whether of course the customers feel this rush to BEV or not, its where the makers are going and there isn't much we can do about that.

As above, there are basically only VAG and BMW left with any current/soon to be current ICE performance models... well, I say ICE, its petrol. The hot diesel is already gone in the final generation from VAG and BMW never really made one.

No Mercedes, no Ford, no Honda, no Hyundai, no Renault, no Peugeot... all of the go to marques for a hot hatch have given up already.

Once VAG and BMW refresh next time, petrol hot hatch will be gone.

BEV hot hatch? Doesn't exist yet really. There are things that go fast in a straight line, but the weight of the batteries and never going to see you enjoy that nimble thrashing you can do in a petrol hot hatch.

Whether it ever does come is a good question. It would need a much lighter battery pack which keeps being promised but nobody has delivered yet. At the moment everything has over 1000kg of duracell bunnies...

Personally, I'm done with hot hatches. The roads are appalling and its never going to be fixed now they have let it go too long, its trillions to fix it and its not going to happen. Driving fast on these roads is lethal.

I'm buying some sort of petrol 4x4 next with balloon tyres or my ageing back isn't going to make it much longer.
« Last Edit: 26 March 2024, 10:44 by fredgroves »
Current: Mk8 GTI DSG, Adelaides, DCC, HUD, HK, Winter Pack, Rear Camera.. Aka "HMS Weasel"

Gone: 2017 Mk7.5 GTD,manual, NavPro
Gone: 2014 Mk7 GTD, manual, NavPro, DCC

Offline Hertsman

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #5 on: 26 March 2024, 13:31 »
https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/

Seems VW are invested in the performance vehicle, as why bother to do the Cupra style split off? though as been said, ICE is on its last hurrah, it will be EV and that would work better for the larger Tigaun, Touraeg R branding as can swallow batteries easier and are not being touted as hot hatches, but as fredgroves just stated, how are they going to negotiate the handling issues to bring them up to lets say MK 8 standard? Seems pretty certain there is an EV GTI coming, which will be forerunner to the EV R, so that car will go along way to answering this thread question. 

I have contemplated going to Tiguan R/R Line for my next car, but think going to have one last hurrah myself in a late MK 7.5 R and then depending on what see in EV and on price also, may put my slippers on and go for comfy, DCC medium size SUV of some description.
Present - BMW 128Ti Alpine White, 18" Performance Tyres, Sun Protection Glass, Parking Assist, Heated Steering, Boston Trim, Split Folding Rear Seats, Electric Lumbar Support
- 2nd car: 2019 Golf R DSG Pure White 19" Black Pretoria, Privacy Glass, Rear View Camera, Dynaudio, Keyless
- 2019 Pure Grey GTI TCR 5 Door DSG Reifinitz Wheel DCC Climate Screen 90% Tint
- 2016 Lapiz Blue Golf R 5 Door DSG Pretoria DCC
- 2013 Pure White GTD 5 Door DSG DCC

Offline ar899

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #6 on: 26 March 2024, 14:18 »
As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.

Offline fredgroves

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #7 on: 26 March 2024, 15:19 »
BTW for comparison, backing up what I said earlier.... an ID3 or similar weighs 500kg more than a Golf GTI/S3/Born...

500kg is a weight gain that will offset even the most clever handling designs...
Current: Mk8 GTI DSG, Adelaides, DCC, HUD, HK, Winter Pack, Rear Camera.. Aka "HMS Weasel"

Gone: 2017 Mk7.5 GTD,manual, NavPro
Gone: 2014 Mk7 GTD, manual, NavPro, DCC

Offline Exonian

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #8 on: 26 March 2024, 18:42 »
Everything has been well covered here in replies.
Fashion (the small hatches that spawned the image boosting hot hatches are going or gone out of production having fallen out of favour in the retail charts)
Legislation (need I add more?)
Transition

On the transition front, VW are about to release the ID.3 GTX and Cupra likewise the Born VZ, then there’s the smaller 215 PS MINI EV, plus there’s the tiny Abarth 500e, although going from some of the replies in here maybe the Buzz GTX might be more apt? 😁
All of the above might be a bit lacking if you drive the Evo Triangle at weekends and need intake whooshes and pops and bangs.
Yeah, if you’ve got a late model 7.5 just keep it until it drops apart.
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Offline JoeGTI

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Re: Is the hot hatch dead?
« Reply #9 on: 26 March 2024, 22:34 »
As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.

This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.
MK8 GTI Clubsport. Reflex silver, Estorils, and a few other bits.