Is the hot hatch dead?

[SRGTD]

As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.

This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.

That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.

With subscription based services looking to become more commonplace in the motor industry, then I dare say there’ll also be an increasing trend in future of manufacturers building cars to a more standard spec, but giving the customer the option to retro-activate certain ‘desirable’ bells and whistles features for the payment of a monthly subscription fee.

[ar899]

As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.

This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.

That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.

Which hatches would those be?

[SRGTD]

As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.

This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.

That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.

Which hatches would those be?

Hatches from manufacturers such as Ford (Titanium X and ST Line X trim levels), Vauxhall (Ultimate trim level), Renault (esprit Alpine trim level), Peugeot (GT Trim level). Most - if not all of - other manufacturers who have a hatch models in their vehicle range but have stopped building a performance version will also have well-equipped, high specced top of range models.

So even if the hot hatch as we know it is dead or dying, it should still be possible to buy a car with plenty of ‘toys’ .

[fredgroves]

They are hardly going to have a top of the range model that doesn't have bundled all of the toys...

It just won't be fast.

It will be loaded.

TBH most marques are trying to trim down the choices and some even (SEAT for example) don't have options, they just have packages.

The other thing to chuck into this discussion is that the switch to making BEV's isn't being matched by consumer demand. That's not me rubbishing BEV's personally, it's fairly common data that shows the factories are pumping them out but the buyers aren't buying them fast enough.

Its a mix of cost (they are expensive compared to ICE, probably a good 10k-5k more!) and that BEV charging has all sorts of issues ranging from range anxiety, public charger availability/reliability and what the hell to do if you don't have a driveway for your own charger.

I'd describe the issue as being that "cars" have provided freedom and unlimited mobility for so long now that the idea of a "car" that reduces this is a big issue with consumers. I can jump in my Golf right now and drive to Berlin if I want to. It will get me there and refuelling won't be an issue. The journey time is predictable and there will be no guesswork.

As opposed to planning to charge it ahead of time (potentially half a day), trying to find chargers en route, waiting in queue for potentially hours, hoping its not cold or raining that means even more stops...

It doesn't feel like freedom.

I think this stumble in the BEV journey for the manufacturers will reduce the chance of them investing in ICE or BEV hot hatches for a while - they've got to sort the 99% of their sales out first!

[P6GTD]

If it’s not tooo big, can I give a shout out to the Škoda Octavia Vrs?
I had one after Audi A3s and before Golf GTIs. A great car.
Still got even more bells and whistles as standard than a GTI but same performance for less dosh.
Build quality as good.
265 bhp standard on latest facelift.
A nice subtle metallic grey one would be very acceptable as long as the wheels look ok, (Škoda have often been “on something” when choosing wheel design).
And the Vrs is different enough to be noticed.
Oh.. and it has retained some important buttons/switches.
I rest my case.

[SRGTD]

Good post Fred!

They are hardly going to have a top of the range model that doesn't have bundled all of the toys...

It just won't be fast.

It will be loaded.

Agree. I’m old enough to remember when the early hot hatches weren’t particularly well equipped compared to the more luxury oriented model(s). The first hot hatch I owned was a 1982 Ford XR3, bought new. It had manual window winders, no central locking, a basic two band radio (no cassette deck) with a single speaker, and it didn’t have a sunroof. I could have bought an Escort Ghia - the luxury model that had electric windows, central locking (I think), sunroof, and a radio cassette player as standard - no alloys though; it made do with shiny wheel trims on steel wheels.

I was young and wanted a car with all the hot hatch looks of spoilers, alloys, colour coded bumpers and door mirror caps, so was happy to sacrifice the luxuries, so it was the low spec hot hatch for me

TBH most marques are trying to trim down the choices and some even (SEAT for example) don't have options, they just have packages.

Yes, I dare say that standard trim packages results in production efficiencies, cost savings and reduces lead times so financially, it makes sense from a car manufacturer’s perspective.

The other thing to chuck into this discussion is that the switch to making BEV's isn't being matched by consumer demand. That's not me rubbishing BEV's personally, it's fairly common data that shows the factories are pumping them out but the buyers aren't buying them fast enough.

There was an item today on the local news website in the area I live highlighting that car dealers didn’t want to take in BEV’s as part exchanges as low customer demand meant the dealers were struggling to move them on.

The issues that you’ve highlighted such as EV charging infrastructure, charging times, range anxiety - not to mention the current uncertain heavy depreciation - are all fuelling that low customer demand.

I'd describe the issue as being that "cars" have provided freedom and unlimited mobility for so long now that the idea of a "car" that reduces this is a big issue with consumers. I can jump in my Golf right now and drive to Berlin if I want to. It will get me there and refuelling won't be an issue. The journey time is predictable and there will be no guesswork.

As opposed to planning to charge it ahead of time (potentially half a day), trying to find chargers en route, waiting in queue for potentially hours, hoping its not cold or raining that means even more stops...

It doesn't feel like freedom.

Agree; ICE cars have put us in a very fortunate position as far as personal freedom and mobility is concerned; anything less will inevitably be considered as removal of some of that freedom which won’t be universally accepted, to put it mildly.

[jh_97]

https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/

I wonder what this will add to the mix? Will there just be one "hot hatch" in the form of an R for the enthusiasts, rather than the options currently available in the range (R, GTI etc)?

[fredgroves]

https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/

I wonder what this will add to the mix? Will there just be one "hot hatch" in the form of an R for the enthusiasts, rather than the options currently available in the range (R, GTI etc)?

Think of the split between SEAT and Cupra.... its that.

Cupra also will end its ICE models... because VAG HQ tells them to.

Just more marketing BS tbh.

[Exonian]

Agreed Fred, it’s just a marketing thing.

Method:
 R = top of the range, therefore justifying the extortionate prices that those that habitually buy “top of the range” products will pay pandering to their own vanity.
VW will continue to market a GTI in the form of a FWD smaller ID. model which is constantly being touted on fanboy officially sanctioned social media accounts. The smaller ID. GTI should appeal more to those that take into consideration the points raised in previous posts in this thread - traffic, road conditions, costs etc.


Result:
ID. R = Flabby 4wd 2 tonne rocket ships with every known luxury gadget
ID. GTI = aimed at those with a more realistic perception of value, a slight twinkle in their eye and don’t have an obsession with squishy door cards.

Conclusion:
Keep hold of your late model 7.5 until it falls apart.

[Hertsman]

Agreed Fred, it’s just a marketing thing.

Method:
 R = top of the range, therefore justifying the extortionate prices that those that habitually buy “top of the range” products will pay pandering to their own vanity.
VW will continue to market a GTI in the form of a FWD smaller ID. model which is constantly being touted on fanboy officially sanctioned social media accounts. The smaller ID. GTI should appeal more to those that take into consideration the points raised in previous posts in this thread - traffic, road conditions, costs etc.


Result:
ID. R = Flabby 4wd 2 tonne rocket ships with every known luxury gadget
ID. GTI = aimed at those with a more realistic perception of value, a slight twinkle in their eye and don’t have an obsession with squishy door cards.

Conclusion:
Keep hold of your late model 7.5 until it falls apart.

Think could be tempted into a MK 8.5 R to keep the ICE thing going just that little bit longer from the MK 7.5, so what's that in timing? Lets say 4-5 years down the line when their prices have moderated from the ridiculous, maybe

But quite like the MK 8.5 changes and if its proven the software issues have been eradicated, be nice to actually experience the drive of the MK 8 which everyone seems to state is its strength.

My 128Ti minor let down is its drive and handling at B road level, and as months have worn on, its definitely take edge off what is otherwise been a good experience, so the drive and ride is pretty important, lets hope VW remember that when the EV finally take over the world, as its going to be some dull journeys being had for everyone, aside from excitement of where to charge next

My 128Ti has 18 months to run on lease, and then we will be running two 2019 plate Golf R imagine, wife's present is in stormtrooper guise so be looking for something different for mine, Indium Grey or Lapiz with black Pretoria's, maybe might drop back a year for 2018 to get 3 Door?

Hopefully prices will have moderated to sub £20k for good example being it will be 6 year old car by time i am searching.