GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: ratty_uk2000 on 17 July 2017, 12:23
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Afternoon all
Finalizing my order for a 7.5 GTI DSG and can't decide on the PP version or not.
Extra power / torque, bigger brakes and LSD don't interest me that much, but I'm curious to know if the extra ratio is within the same final drive, or is in fact higher as an overdrive.
UK spec sheet doesn't include these, and making an assumption based on consumption, emissions or top speed may be wrong.
Given I spend more time at 80 on a motorway than I do hooning around, the latter may make the decision for me.
Thanks.
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I'd been interested to know whether in manual mode on the 7 speed whether it still changes up and kicks down (the 7 speed box in the RS3 does not do this which is a big attraction).
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So what you're saying is you're about to order a GTI even though you don't care so much about: power, torque, brakes or cornering but mainly about how economical is the final gear? :shocked:
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So what you're saying is you're about to order a GTI even though you don't care so much about: power, torque, brakes or cornering but mainly about how economical is the final gear? :shocked:
Ah no :grin:
Just my curiosity as an OCD engineer between the DSG boxes on the vanilla and Performance versions.
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For reference my 6 speed DSG sits at 2000rpm @ 70mph and 3000rpm @ 100mph.
From what I can see on YouTube on the 0-100km/h 245ps video the first 3 gears have the same ratio and change after the redline to the same rpm (~4500rpm in 3rd from 2nd).
Now the real question is whether you would make a £1200 saving in fuel to justify the extra cost if you're not too fussed about the other Performance features.
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Does this help?
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=272800.msg2555231#msg2555231
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Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
Doesn't DSG only come in 7 speed now? I should know but....
For sure I have it and it's definitely a higher ratio than the original 6th top gear, doesn't come in until 50mph I believe and is brilliant on Motorway/Highways etc.
The changes are or seem quicker than ever, I found it's not a gear the car wants to stay in so barely a blip of throttle ( or just think you want to change down :wink:) and your in 5th.
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Does this help?
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=272800.msg2555231#msg2555231
Unfortuntely not because the S3 uses the same ratios as the R which are much shorter than the GTI. But good thinking.
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Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
Doesn't DSG only come in 7 speed now? I should know but....
For sure I have it and it's definitely a higher ratio than the original 6th top gear, doesn't come in until 50mph I believe and is brilliant on Motorway/Highways etc.
The changes are or seem quicker than ever, I found it's not a gear the car wants to stay in so barely a blip of throttle ( or just think you want to change down :wink:) and your in 5th.
We're talking GTI buddy :cool: completely different gearbox ratios to the R. The GTI comes with both 6 speed DSG and 7 speed DSG for the Performance edition.
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Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
Doesn't DSG only come in 7 speed now? I should know but....
For sure I have it and it's definitely a higher ratio than the original 6th top gear, doesn't come in until 50mph I believe and is brilliant on Motorway/Highways etc.
The changes are or seem quicker than ever, I found it's not a gear the car wants to stay in so barely a blip of throttle ( or just think you want to change down :wink:) and your in 5th.
We're talking GTI buddy :cool: completely different gearbox ratios to the R. The GTI comes with both 6 speed DSG and 7 speed DSG for the Performance edition.
Just another reason why they are slower then. Would have thought a PP could pull the same top gear?
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Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
Doesn't DSG only come in 7 speed now? I should know but....
For sure I have it and it's definitely a higher ratio than the original 6th top gear, doesn't come in until 50mph I believe and is brilliant on Motorway/Highways etc.
The changes are or seem quicker than ever, I found it's not a gear the car wants to stay in so barely a blip of throttle ( or just think you want to change down :wink:) and your in 5th.
We're talking GTI buddy :cool: completely different gearbox ratios to the R. The GTI comes with both 6 speed DSG and 7 speed DSG for the Performance edition.
Just another reason why they are slower then. Would have thought a PP could pull the same top gear?
I would say it's the 80bhp deficit rather than the gear ratios :grin: Due to the nature of the GTI turbo the power band is lower than the R so to maximise the punch the gear ratios need to be longer.
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I'd been interested to know whether in manual mode on the 7 speed whether it still changes up and kicks down (the 7 speed box in the RS3 does not do this which is a big attraction).
I've seen this talked about previously and didn't quite understand it - as far as I'm aware, if I knock the gear lever over to manual in my 7.5 GTi the gear will only change if the rev limits are reached at the upper (engine rev limiter) or lower (stall) limits - if I plant my right foot it doesn't kick down.
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I'd been interested to know whether in manual mode on the 7 speed whether it still changes up and kicks down (the 7 speed box in the RS3 does not do this which is a big attraction).
I've seen this talked about previously and didn't quite understand it - as far as I'm aware, if I knock the gear lever over to manual in my 7.5 GTi the gear will only change if the rev limits are reached at the upper (engine rev limiter) or lower (stall) limits - if I plant my right foot it doesn't kick down.
I second this, I have been caught out a few times when I needed power and it's slowly increasing the revs low down in 5th because I forgot I was in manual mode.
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Given I spend more time at 80 on a motorway than I do hooning around, the latter may make the decision for me.
Sounds like the GTI you really need is a GTD. :undecided:
Why don't you just compare the official fuel consumption figures. They should give an indication if the Performance Pack is for you.
The engineer and 'driver' in me is most interested in the VAQ eLSD. If you have 15 minutes watch 18:30 to 33:30 - https://vimeo.com/102644851 (https://vimeo.com/102644851)
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Diesel power FTW :-)
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Just another reason why they are slower then. Would have thought a PP could pull the same top gear?
I think it all boils down to the R (the 7.5 in particular) being the best car in the world, bar none :smiley:
(you just have to love this guy's posts...)
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I couldn't give a monkeys, but buddy (yawn) hog is convinced the GTI is from his responses
I was merely helping the OP make decision, as one who actually drives a 7 speed, not one who reads a lot.
Mate we have a Mk7 GTI as well, and you know pound for pound the R is the best alround car in the world ever for true pistonheads laugh:
Seems everyone knows this apart from Some GTI owners, I'd best leave you lads to it until you eventually get one.
I waited 70 years!!
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I couldn't give a monkeys, but buddy (yawn) hog is convinced the GTI is from his responses
I was merely helping the OP make decision, as one who actually drives a 7 speed, not one who reads a lot.
This is about a 7 speed GTI, not a 7 speed R. They are different boxes with different ratios. This isn't a thread about GTI vs R, I'm not sure that you quite understand that. No one has mentioned the R apart from you.
Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
You're right, you really helped the OP on this one... by not reading a word what was said in the original post.
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GTI... completely different gearbox ratios to the R.
Where did you find this information?
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So what you're saying is you're about to order a GTI even though you don't care so much about: power, torque, brakes or cornering but mainly about how economical is the final gear? :shocked:
Ah no :grin:
Just my curiosity as an OCD engineer between the DSG boxes on the vanilla and Performance versions.
Just a quick note, if you're an engineer with OCD you're either not working because of you're condition or you don't have OCD!
Please don't make light of what OCD actually is. Sorry
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GTI... completely different gearbox ratios to the R.
Where did you find this information?
Bear in mind these are the comparison between both 6 speed gearboxes, but bear with me.
There are some official figures quoted from VW here:
GTI - https://media.vw.com/doc/948/2015_volkswagen_golf_gti_the_icon_reinvented-2015_golf_gti_specifications-15012859415370d15b81c21.pdf (https://media.vw.com/doc/948/2015_volkswagen_golf_gti_the_icon_reinvented-2015_golf_gti_specifications-15012859415370d15b81c21.pdf)
R - http://media.vw.com/doc/1342/16639762254eb40c8bd4a5.pdf (http://media.vw.com/doc/1342/16639762254eb40c8bd4a5.pdf)
Here is the R's transmission kindly translated into some real work figures:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GolfGTI/comments/4s3fzq/gearing_chart_for_the_201516_golf_r_mkvii/?st=j58m76lx&sh=c3846062 (https://www.reddit.com/r/GolfGTI/comments/4s3fzq/gearing_chart_for_the_201516_golf_r_mkvii/?st=j58m76lx&sh=c3846062)
Note that the R at 60mph it is doing 2,200 rpm in 6th where the GTI is at 2000 at 70mph in 6th (from my experience).
Finally a more crude approach to working out the gearing is to watch some 0-200km/h+ videos of DSG R's and GTI's on Youtube. Note that when the GTI changes up it drops to roughly 4,500 rpm for the next gear after 2nd and the R drops to around 5200rpm. The GTI's 3rd and 4th are noticeably longer.
R - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bTIoXzsezk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bTIoXzsezk)
GTI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z0J-nYTBxk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z0J-nYTBxk)
Now this is where the 7th gear comes in. There are no published figures of the 7 speeds that I can find on the net so some more youtubing has to be done.
FL R - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJRL7-FX9Uw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJRL7-FX9Uw)
Very similar if not near identical to the 6-speed R with the 7th being an overdrive gear for good fuel consumption.
FL GTI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDwJin23Ek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDwJin23Ek)
The GTI stops at 100km/h so we can only see half a picture. But the picture so far suggests very similar ratios to the GTI 6 speed DSG up to 3rd (and still the same long 3rd gear).
I would really like to know the answer to the OP's question because I have wondered the same thing since I bought my GTI so hopefully someone with a 245PS DSG can shed some light on all of this. If I was a betting man I would say the 7 speed DSG would be the one to get without a doubt, even if the 7th is only used for overdrive it's still better than the old 6 gear box. I can get mid 40's cruising at 70 with the 6 speed so I won't be too disgruntled :smiley:
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I couldn't give a monkeys, but buddy (yawn) hog is convinced the GTI is from his responses
I was merely helping the OP make decision, as one who actually drives a 7 speed, not one who reads a lot.
This is about a 7 speed GTI, not a 7 speed R. They are different boxes with different ratios. This isn't a thread about GTI vs R, I'm not sure that you quite understand that. No one has mentioned the R apart from you.
Not sure if this is a Manual v DSG debate again :whistle: or the OP is questioning the different top gear ratios between 6 & 7 speed DSG.
You're right, you really helped the OP on this one... by not reading a word what was said in the original post.
You mentioned the R not me pal, if you bother to read my original post. The Boxes are not so different in overall effect, as in ratios to suit power output.
So the concept and result is the same for both relatively. 7th iis a higher ratio on both and as such for OP I would have thought the best choice as he does a lot of M way work.
Seems you get a lot of pleasure in correcting folks on details , like the Audi graph which was an excellent if not totally accurate comparison.
That's all poster asked not the exact numbers, :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
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You mentioned the R not me pal, if you bother to read my original post. The Boxes are not so different in overall effect, as in ratios to suit power output.
So the concept and result is the same for both relatively. 7th iis a higher ratio on both and as such for OP I would have thought the best choice as he does a lot of M way work.
Seems you get a lot of pleasure in correcting folks on details , like the Audi graph which was an excellent if not totally accurate comparison.
That's all poster asked not the exact numbers, :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
But we don't know the answer yet until we get more information about the Performance GTI, that is the answer that we have so far. We have gained ground though so far which may or may not have helped the OP.
I get a lot of pleasure from lots of different things Colin, many of which aren't the topic of this thread... and neither is GTI vs R. :grin:
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I couldn't give a monkeys, but buddy (yawn) hog is convinced the GTI is from his responses
I was merely helping the OP make decision, as one who actually drives a 7 speed, not one who reads a lot.
Mate we have a Mk7 GTI as well, and you know pound for pound the R is the best alround car in the world ever for true pistonheads laugh:
Seems everyone knows this apart from Some GTI owners, I'd best leave you lads to it until you eventually get one.
I waited 70 years!!
Lol, you didn't even read what the OP's (really simple) question was about, just rushed to conclusion that ratios are a reason of why the R is faster... (as if that was the topic)
PS. Someone send this guy some R forum links please, can't you see he's suffering here? :grin:
PS2. Is that 70 years to be able to buy an R?? that explains it...
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Here are the fuel consumption figures (urban, extra-urban, combined) -
Golf GTI 5dr DSG - 34.4/52.3/44.1
Golf GTI PP 5dr DSG - 34.4/54.3/44.8
So the 7 speed will be slightly more economical on the motorway. I doubt if it will be noticeable in the real world.
Of course, the GTD gives much better smiles per gallon.
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Thanks all for the thoughts and opinions thus far *cheers*
For the avoidance of further confusion - core question is the final drive ratio of 6 speed DSG vs 7 speed DSG on a 7.5 GTI 3 door. And my prime interest is about quiet cruising at UK motorway speeds.
Looking at the stats in the UK brochure it's dangerous to make assumptions - consumption and emissions are either fractionally higher or lower depending on which test scenario (to be expected as the box mapping "games" the test) and top speed is identically limited in both cases.
Noise is lower in the 7 speed box though, so maybe this is an indicator of lower engine revs at the test speed?
Happy for the debate to continue!
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...my prime interest is about quiet cruising at UK motorway speeds.
Noise is lower in the 7 speed box though, so maybe this is an indicator of lower engine revs at the test speed?
I'm guessing those noise results are under test centre conditions. On most of the motorways and dual carriageways I drive road/tyre noise drowns out engine noise.
If noise is such a major concern for you then you will need to consider changing the OEM Bridgestone tyres. They are known to be hard wearing and high noise tyre. Someone said that Pirelli have a new foam lined tyre which has considerably reduced tyre/road noise.
Edit: Pirelli Noise Cancelling System - https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/car-light-truck/original-equipment-tires/noise-cancelling-system# (https://www.pirelli.com/tires/en-us/car-light-truck/original-equipment-tires/noise-cancelling-system#)
"The “Pirelli Noise Cancelling System” reduces noise by between two to three decibels, or on average by half, with a consequent improvement in driving comfort."
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More companies are developing quieter tyres -
Goodyear Sound Comfort Technology - http://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/news-press/articles/goodyear-reduces-interior-car-noise-levels-with-new-soundcomfort-technology_161644 (http://www.goodyear.eu/corporate_emea/news-press/articles/goodyear-reduces-interior-car-noise-levels-with-new-soundcomfort-technology_161644)
Falken Silent Core - http://www.falken-europe.de/falken-tyre-europe-to-present-its-extensive-portfolio-of-products-and-new-technologies-at-essen-trade-show-0cbc7e792c21315c (http://www.falken-europe.de/falken-tyre-europe-to-present-its-extensive-portfolio-of-products-and-new-technologies-at-essen-trade-show-0cbc7e792c21315c)
ContiSilent technology - http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/technology/contisilent (http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/technology/contisilent)
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I think the most aural intrusion is the soundaktor, wife likes hers but I hate the noise in hers and much prefer mine without
Valid point on road noise which when cruising can be the biggest intrusion, anyone who drives on the South side of the M25 will no what I mean on the bits still to have black top
I get the top gear cruising bit as my other stead as an extra cog, but in reality on that it is tyre noise that over comes a few 100rpm less
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Get a copy of this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Sleep-Til-Hammersmith-Motorhead/dp/B001G5SDS4
Stick the MP3 onto your SD card, turn it up to eleven.
Wind noise, tyre noise, engine noise, traffic noise, noise from the wife and kids.... it all goes away magically!
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I think the most aural intrusion is the soundaktor, wife likes hers but I hate the noise in hers and much prefer mine without
Valid point on road noise which when cruising can be the biggest intrusion, anyone who drives on the South side of the M25 will no what I mean on the bits still to have black top
I get the top gear cruising bit as my other stead as an extra cog, but in reality on that it is tyre noise that over comes a few 100rpm less
a guy did a video with it on and off and omg what a difference :) will the 7.5 have this on?
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You can turn it down in the individual mode... or you can remove it entirely.
I'd try turning it down first!
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I'd been interested to know whether in manual mode on the 7 speed whether it still changes up and kicks down (the 7 speed box in the RS3 does not do this which is a big attraction).
I've seen this talked about previously and didn't quite understand it - as far as I'm aware, if I knock the gear lever over to manual in my 7.5 GTi the gear will only change if the rev limits are reached at the upper (engine rev limiter) or lower (stall) limits - if I plant my right foot it doesn't kick down.
I second this, I have been caught out a few times when I needed power and it's slowly increasing the revs low down in 5th because I forgot I was in manual mode.
I gave this a proper try last night and it turns out that if you're in manual mode and bury your right foot, past the 'click' resistance point (which takes a fair old press and can't really be done by accident) then it does indeed kick down a couple of cogs. I've never actually had it do this until I tried as it takes an obvious effort to go past the resistance point.