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Model specific boards => Golf mk8 => Topic started by: MaggotsRus on 25 March 2024, 20:44
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So always nice to throw something contentious into the mix. So having been on this forum for about two years, a mere apprentice by some of the standards of updates from those that post endless replies and at times essential guidance. But one common theme I’ve noticed is that many of the posts on this group are for failings of how the Mark 8 has faired or is doing. So having thought about this it appears that the Mark 8 has or is part of the downfall of the hot hatch. People have waited for long periods for their cars, on arrival some of those cars or earlier have had terrible warranty issues and poor build quality I think judging by the back up support those issues will persist and will be a huge cost implication for owners in the future. The prices now are falling despite what others think and the dealers / autotrader et al have stock that is simply not moving. So these are my thoughts having owned a 45 and other GTi’s beforehand is this hot hatch dead? ☠️ and will VW reinvigorate the loyal following to be convinced otherwise. Answers on the back of a postage stamp please 😉
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I’m not sure the hot hatch is dead, but in its current guise I do think it’s a dying breed.
Some other manufacturers have dropped their ICE hot hatch models - Hyundai with their i30N and i20N models, Ford’s Fiesta ST is no longer being built and the Focus ST production is to stop if it hasn’t already stopped. I think Renault may have gone the same way with their RS models - I think read recently that they’ve said there’s no longer sufficient demand for hot hatches to make it viable for them to build them.
From what I’ve read on some forums, insurance companies also seem to be hitting hot hatches hard with significant premium increases, which is just another nail in the coffin.
VW - and I dare say some other manufacturers - will no doubt have ‘hot hatch’ versions in their EV vehicle model ranges, so the hot hatch will live on but not as we know it. However, I doubt the appeal of owning a fast milk float will appeal to the majority of existing ICE hot hatch owners.
I can’t see my next car being a hot hatch. With the limited mileage I drive these days (around 4,500 miles a year) and the congested state of the roads, there’s little opportunity to drive a hot hatch as it should be driven, and I don’t need hot hatch performance just to go with the flow of the other traffic at 50-55 mph. My next car is highly likely to be a ‘normal’ run of the mill car and it’s also unlikely to be a VW - there’s nothing in the current VW range that appeals to me, and with VW’s recent track record of software issues, I’m not sure I’d be confident they’ve fixed those issues for the future.
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For me hot hatches are still a good compromise between performance and practicality. At present I've got a Mk7.5 Gti Performance Pack and if I were to change that, I certainly wouldn't buy a MK8 due to all the software issues, but I would buy an F40 t128i or M135i as their build quality is excellent in comparison.
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For me hot hatches are still a good compromise between performance and practicality. At present I've got a Mk7.5 Gti Performance Pack and if I were to change that, I certainly wouldn't buy a MK8 due to all the software issues, but I would buy an F40 t128i or M135i as their build quality is excellent in comparison.
Would stick to the M135i as an alternative, I have had a 66 plate R, 69 plate TCR and now a 128Ti as my last three rides, and wife currently has 2109 R and been asked more about what the 128Ti is more than others, so that's looks ticked, the cabin and media are excellent (though i think the MK 7.5 interior is excellent also) but the drive of the 128Ti does let it down.
The gearbox can get a little lazy in comfort, so you have to be permanently in sport, which is not really a problem, ratio is good enough for all conditions, but Sport + (flick lever to left) is way too high in ratio.
It has no real exhaust note at all, you do not get any deep tones or overruns that get in the Golf R, it's pretty mute.
The worst aspect however is the torque steer and in wet, it feels a little insecure when on a B road, so you just do not push it on.
The ride is good, and passengers love the car as its quite lush inside, we done plenty of family and friends trips out in it, and it ticks all the boxes as a day to day car.
The engine itself is lovely, super strong, linear pull, goes in a straight line rapidly as quick as all cars mentioned above in the dry.
The 128Ti is a great car, really good stab at a GTI by BMW, it looks great and has excellent interior and media, but drive does let it down at highest level for the driver, and even though have 18 months left of the lease, already counting down days till can get myself a MK 7.5 R to replace it, which think is the best VW have produced all around.
On the hot hatchback subject, I like most on here, are the target market, its all ever driven, and would be open to an EV hot hatch back, but there would be some convincing, it would have to look the part, have interior up to standard of the BMW and the MK 7.5 R in quality and it would have to drive them twisty B roads in same manner also, and maybe you will miss the exhaust note, maybe some fakery or some other electric motor 'wind up' makes up for it, but the drive is still the most important factor.
Infrastructure is then the next hurdle, its nowhere near there for those without drive, and the final hurdle, new car prices and more so EV, with presently huge depreciation on GFV would not presently have you go near one at small mortgage costs!
This is why happy to go little back in time, to a MK 7.5 R, such a great car at reasonable cost compared to the new, which have priced me completely out of consideration.
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Is the ICE hot hatch dead?
Yes, I believe it is simply because of the OEM's shift to BEV.
The ICE hot hatch was a low volume sale numbers, as such its ripe for nipping off as the makers cut their ranges as ALL ICE models are run outs at this point.
Whether of course the customers feel this rush to BEV or not, its where the makers are going and there isn't much we can do about that.
As above, there are basically only VAG and BMW left with any current/soon to be current ICE performance models... well, I say ICE, its petrol. The hot diesel is already gone in the final generation from VAG and BMW never really made one.
No Mercedes, no Ford, no Honda, no Hyundai, no Renault, no Peugeot... all of the go to marques for a hot hatch have given up already.
Once VAG and BMW refresh next time, petrol hot hatch will be gone.
BEV hot hatch? Doesn't exist yet really. There are things that go fast in a straight line, but the weight of the batteries and never going to see you enjoy that nimble thrashing you can do in a petrol hot hatch.
Whether it ever does come is a good question. It would need a much lighter battery pack which keeps being promised but nobody has delivered yet. At the moment everything has over 1000kg of duracell bunnies...
Personally, I'm done with hot hatches. The roads are appalling and its never going to be fixed now they have let it go too long, its trillions to fix it and its not going to happen. Driving fast on these roads is lethal.
I'm buying some sort of petrol 4x4 next with balloon tyres or my ageing back isn't going to make it much longer.
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https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/ (https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/)
Seems VW are invested in the performance vehicle, as why bother to do the Cupra style split off? though as been said, ICE is on its last hurrah, it will be EV and that would work better for the larger Tigaun, Touraeg R branding as can swallow batteries easier and are not being touted as hot hatches, but as fredgroves just stated, how are they going to negotiate the handling issues to bring them up to lets say MK 8 standard? Seems pretty certain there is an EV GTI coming, which will be forerunner to the EV R, so that car will go along way to answering this thread question.
I have contemplated going to Tiguan R/R Line for my next car, but think going to have one last hurrah myself in a late MK 7.5 R and then depending on what see in EV and on price also, may put my slippers on and go for comfy, DCC medium size SUV of some description.
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As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.
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BTW for comparison, backing up what I said earlier.... an ID3 or similar weighs 500kg more than a Golf GTI/S3/Born...
500kg is a weight gain that will offset even the most clever handling designs...
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Everything has been well covered here in replies.
Fashion (the small hatches that spawned the image boosting hot hatches are going or gone out of production having fallen out of favour in the retail charts)
Legislation (need I add more?)
Transition
On the transition front, VW are about to release the ID.3 GTX and Cupra likewise the Born VZ, then there’s the smaller 215 PS MINI EV, plus there’s the tiny Abarth 500e, although going from some of the replies in here maybe the Buzz GTX might be more apt? 😁
All of the above might be a bit lacking if you drive the Evo Triangle at weekends and need intake whooshes and pops and bangs.
Yeah, if you’ve got a late model 7.5 just keep it until it drops apart.
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As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.
This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.
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As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.
This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.
That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.
With subscription based services looking to become more commonplace in the motor industry, then I dare say there’ll also be an increasing trend in future of manufacturers building cars to a more standard spec, but giving the customer the option to retro-activate certain ‘desirable’ bells and whistles features for the payment of a monthly subscription fee.
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As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.
This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.
That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.
Which hatches would those be?
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As well as being 'hot', hot hatches tend to be top of the range for equipment. If for example you want a high spec Golf, you have to go for a performance model. An R Line doesn't cut it - you could add all the extras but that only works if you are ordering new.
This is a good point. If you want the car with the nice bells and whistles, then it has to be one of the performance models. The R-Line models are all fur coat and no knickers in more ways than one. At a glance they look nice and well spec’d but in reality they’re missing lots of kit that would cost thousands to option on, such as the IQ lights for example. And it generally doesn’t make sense to option up a lower model car. Better to go for the model that has the kit as standard.
That may be so currently with VW, but there are other car manufacturers who’ve stopped building hot hatches / performance oriented models that have top of range luxury models with the nice bells and whistles as standard - probably the equivalent of an R-Line ‘plus’.
Which hatches would those be?
Hatches from manufacturers such as Ford (Titanium X and ST Line X trim levels), Vauxhall (Ultimate trim level), Renault (esprit Alpine trim level), Peugeot (GT Trim level). Most - if not all of - other manufacturers who have a hatch models in their vehicle range but have stopped building a performance version will also have well-equipped, high specced top of range models.
So even if the hot hatch as we know it is dead or dying, it should still be possible to buy a car with plenty of ‘toys’ :smiley:.
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They are hardly going to have a top of the range model that doesn't have bundled all of the toys...
It just won't be fast.
It will be loaded.
TBH most marques are trying to trim down the choices and some even (SEAT for example) don't have options, they just have packages.
The other thing to chuck into this discussion is that the switch to making BEV's isn't being matched by consumer demand. That's not me rubbishing BEV's personally, it's fairly common data that shows the factories are pumping them out but the buyers aren't buying them fast enough.
Its a mix of cost (they are expensive compared to ICE, probably a good 10k-5k more!) and that BEV charging has all sorts of issues ranging from range anxiety, public charger availability/reliability and what the hell to do if you don't have a driveway for your own charger.
I'd describe the issue as being that "cars" have provided freedom and unlimited mobility for so long now that the idea of a "car" that reduces this is a big issue with consumers. I can jump in my Golf right now and drive to Berlin if I want to. It will get me there and refuelling won't be an issue. The journey time is predictable and there will be no guesswork.
As opposed to planning to charge it ahead of time (potentially half a day), trying to find chargers en route, waiting in queue for potentially hours, hoping its not cold or raining that means even more stops...
It doesn't feel like freedom.
I think this stumble in the BEV journey for the manufacturers will reduce the chance of them investing in ICE or BEV hot hatches for a while - they've got to sort the 99% of their sales out first!
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If it’s not tooo big, can I give a shout out to the Škoda Octavia Vrs?
I had one after Audi A3s and before Golf GTIs. A great car.
Still got even more bells and whistles as standard than a GTI but same performance for less dosh.
Build quality as good.
265 bhp standard on latest facelift.
A nice subtle metallic grey one would be very acceptable as long as the wheels look ok, (Škoda have often been “on something” when choosing wheel design).
And the Vrs is different enough to be noticed.
Oh.. and it has retained some important buttons/switches.
I rest my case.
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Good post Fred!
They are hardly going to have a top of the range model that doesn't have bundled all of the toys...
It just won't be fast.
It will be loaded.
Agree. I’m old enough to remember when the early hot hatches weren’t particularly well equipped compared to the more luxury oriented model(s). The first hot hatch I owned was a 1982 Ford XR3, bought new. It had manual window winders, no central locking, a basic two band radio (no cassette deck) with a single speaker, and it didn’t have a sunroof. I could have bought an Escort Ghia - the luxury model that had electric windows, central locking (I think), sunroof, and a radio cassette player as standard - no alloys though; it made do with shiny wheel trims on steel wheels.
I was young and wanted a car with all the hot hatch looks of spoilers, alloys, colour coded bumpers and door mirror caps, so was happy to sacrifice the luxuries, so it was the low spec hot hatch for me :smiley:
TBH most marques are trying to trim down the choices and some even (SEAT for example) don't have options, they just have packages.
Yes, I dare say that standard trim packages results in production efficiencies, cost savings and reduces lead times so financially, it makes sense from a car manufacturer’s perspective.
The other thing to chuck into this discussion is that the switch to making BEV's isn't being matched by consumer demand. That's not me rubbishing BEV's personally, it's fairly common data that shows the factories are pumping them out but the buyers aren't buying them fast enough.
There was an item today on the local news website in the area I live highlighting that car dealers didn’t want to take in BEV’s as part exchanges as low customer demand meant the dealers were struggling to move them on.
The issues that you’ve highlighted such as EV charging infrastructure, charging times, range anxiety - not to mention the current uncertain heavy depreciation - are all fuelling that low customer demand.
I'd describe the issue as being that "cars" have provided freedom and unlimited mobility for so long now that the idea of a "car" that reduces this is a big issue with consumers. I can jump in my Golf right now and drive to Berlin if I want to. It will get me there and refuelling won't be an issue. The journey time is predictable and there will be no guesswork.
As opposed to planning to charge it ahead of time (potentially half a day), trying to find chargers en route, waiting in queue for potentially hours, hoping its not cold or raining that means even more stops...
It doesn't feel like freedom.
Agree; ICE cars have put us in a very fortunate position as far as personal freedom and mobility is concerned; anything less will inevitably be considered as removal of some of that freedom which won’t be universally accepted, to put it mildly.
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https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/
I wonder what this will add to the mix? Will there just be one "hot hatch" in the form of an R for the enthusiasts, rather than the options currently available in the range (R, GTI etc)?
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https://www.motor1.com/news/713819/volkswagen-r-independent-brand/
I wonder what this will add to the mix? Will there just be one "hot hatch" in the form of an R for the enthusiasts, rather than the options currently available in the range (R, GTI etc)?
Think of the split between SEAT and Cupra.... its that.
Cupra also will end its ICE models... because VAG HQ tells them to.
Just more marketing BS tbh.
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Agreed Fred, it’s just a marketing thing.
Method:
R = top of the range, therefore justifying the extortionate prices that those that habitually buy “top of the range” products will pay pandering to their own vanity.
VW will continue to market a GTI in the form of a FWD smaller ID. model which is constantly being touted on fanboy officially sanctioned social media accounts. The smaller ID. GTI should appeal more to those that take into consideration the points raised in previous posts in this thread - traffic, road conditions, costs etc.
Result:
ID. R = Flabby 4wd 2 tonne rocket ships with every known luxury gadget
ID. GTI = aimed at those with a more realistic perception of value, a slight twinkle in their eye and don’t have an obsession with squishy door cards.
Conclusion:
Keep hold of your late model 7.5 until it falls apart.
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Agreed Fred, it’s just a marketing thing.
Method:
R = top of the range, therefore justifying the extortionate prices that those that habitually buy “top of the range” products will pay pandering to their own vanity.
VW will continue to market a GTI in the form of a FWD smaller ID. model which is constantly being touted on fanboy officially sanctioned social media accounts. The smaller ID. GTI should appeal more to those that take into consideration the points raised in previous posts in this thread - traffic, road conditions, costs etc.
Result:
ID. R = Flabby 4wd 2 tonne rocket ships with every known luxury gadget
ID. GTI = aimed at those with a more realistic perception of value, a slight twinkle in their eye and don’t have an obsession with squishy door cards.
Conclusion:
Keep hold of your late model 7.5 until it falls apart.
Think could be tempted into a MK 8.5 R to keep the ICE thing going just that little bit longer from the MK 7.5, so what's that in timing? Lets say 4-5 years down the line when their prices have moderated from the ridiculous, maybe :)
But quite like the MK 8.5 changes and if its proven the software issues have been eradicated, be nice to actually experience the drive of the MK 8 which everyone seems to state is its strength.
My 128Ti minor let down is its drive and handling at B road level, and as months have worn on, its definitely take edge off what is otherwise been a good experience, so the drive and ride is pretty important, lets hope VW remember that when the EV finally take over the world, as its going to be some dull journeys being had for everyone, aside from excitement of where to charge next :)
My 128Ti has 18 months to run on lease, and then we will be running two 2019 plate Golf R imagine, wife's present is in stormtrooper guise so be looking for something different for mine, Indium Grey or Lapiz with black Pretoria's, maybe might drop back a year for 2018 to get 3 Door?
Hopefully prices will have moderated to sub £20k for good example being it will be 6 year old car by time i am searching.
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My guess... the last of the ICE cars, particularly something like a 8.5 R will hold their value as we plunge into the abyss of the ICE ban.
I'd say an end of era ICE car will REALLY hold its value for a good few years once 2030 hits...
Until either its a tatty nail or they start on the next phase of the Co2 war by raising petrol prices rapidly to make you quit...and they definitely will. It won't be that you can't obtain petrol, it will just mean you can't afford it.
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I have followed the ICE discussions with interest over the last few years and have acquired a small collection of enjoyable, engaging everyday transport vehicles - 2 hot hatches and 2 motorbikes- in anticipation of the end of ICE.
I’ve got a slight suspicion that things will move more slowly than expected.
The ban( on new vehicles) has already moved to 2035, I wouldn’t be surprised if this moves further.
My hope is that, the hot hatch will make a resurgence- as it did in the 90s after insurance companies killed it.
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I have followed the ICE discussions with interest over the last few years and have acquired a small collection of enjoyable, engaging everyday transport vehicles - 2 hot hatches and 2 motorbikes- in anticipation of the end of ICE.
I’ve got a slight suspicion that things will move more slowly than expected.
The ban( on new vehicles) has already moved to 2035, I wouldn’t be surprised if this moves further.
My hope is that, the hot hatch will make a resurgence- as it did in the 90s after insurance companies killed it.
insurance premiums and thefts are certainly going the way they did in the 90's unfortunately.
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Ah yes, the 90s when my Astra GTE was broken into 3 times, an attempt to take it off my drive overnight and attempted break in in Glasgow city centre at 3 o clock in the afternoon.
One successful break in was in Milton Keynes at lunchtime in an indoor car park. They managed to bend the steering column while trying break the steering lock.
The good old days…
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Ah yes, the 90s when my Astra GTE was broken into 3 times, an attempt to take it off my drive overnight and attempted break in in Glasgow city centre at 3 o clock in the afternoon.
One successful break in was in Milton Keynes at lunchtime in an indoor car park. They managed to bend the steering column while trying break the steering lock.
The good old days…
My Astra GTE was broken into a few times too, always expecting it to have been when i got back to it.
Eventually someone nicked it one night, in fact they'd nicked a Maestro in Derby town centre and driven out to a village on the ouskirts of Derby and thought theyd trade up and left me the Maestro.
I only knew my GTE was missing when the police knocked on the door enquiring who's the Maestro was parked on the road still running!!
Got it back a couple of days later, broken steering lock and just looking a bit second hand.
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I have followed the ICE discussions with interest over the last few years and have acquired a small collection of enjoyable, engaging everyday transport vehicles - 2 hot hatches and 2 motorbikes- in anticipation of the end of ICE.
I’ve got a slight suspicion that things will move more slowly than expected.
The ban( on new vehicles) has already moved to 2035, I wouldn’t be surprised if this moves further.
My hope is that, the hot hatch will make a resurgence- as it did in the 90s after insurance companies killed it.
insurance premiums and thefts are certainly going the way they did in the 90's unfortunately.
Yes, and when conditions improved, they made a comeback.
Perhaps it’s wishful thinking, but if the market and infrastructure isn’t ready for electric, and might not be for 20 years, then perhaps ice and electric can coexist for some time.
The interesting thing for me is “ how long will this all take ?”
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My first 205 was nearly stolen in 1997 by joyriders- they couldn’t get round the immobiliser and left it.
Had an alfa 164 stolen a couple of years later.
I’ve noticed the good old stoplock seems to have made a resurgence recently- seen lots of these fitted.