GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk8 => Topic started by: Rudedog on 11 February 2024, 00:40
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I guess you guys who are going to buy a new car are aware of the big change?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quCBnimnJs4
Sounds like no more discounts.
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And it's not price fixing because you are buying direct from vw. Price fixing would be telling dealers you can't sell your stock for less than X.
He says in the comments also that the handling feet they get for a sale is less than the current profit margin though but I guess it's less capital intensive because they don't have to purchase the vehicles...
It's not good for the consumer I'd argue but it does follow the pattern of tesla for example...
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@Rudedog; I was aware of this happening and agree with Fred, it’s not good for the consumer.
There was a recent article on Auto Express website on certain motor manufacturing brands adopting the Agency model - seems that a number of car manufacturers are going down this route (there’s a list of those the are - or already have - at the bottom of the Auto Express article).
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/buying-car/357915/agency-model-its-coming-uk-car-dealers-what-does-it-mean-buyers#:~:text=The%20way%20new%20cars%20are,the%20agency%20model%20in%202024.
Begs the question(s);
- ‘what does this mean for brokers like Drive the Deal? DtD haven’t had VW passenger cars on their website for some time; just the Amarok and a few people carrier type vehicles. I’m assuming these brokers may still exist on some form or other if they have an arrangement with those car brands that haven’t gone down the Agency model route.
- I’m assuming no discounts available through Carwow if under the Agency model customers are buying from the car manufacturer rather than the dealer?
Interesting times ahead…………….
I was considering potentially moving away from VW for my next car as after 22 years of owning VW’s I fancy a change. Most of the Japanese or Korean manufacturers (e.g. Hyundai, Kia, Lexus Mazda, Nissan, Suzuki and Toyota) currently have no plans to go down the Agency model route (doesn’t mean they won’t in future though), so who knows - maybe I’ll be driving something Asian or alternatively, I may keep my current VW long term.
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Hmmm we'll see.
List prices of new vehicles have already become ridiculous. If there are no meaningful discounts off list price this might lean me towards buying used, or towards a different brand.
In the video he mentioned that Skoda had been doing this for some time, yet look on Drive the Deal and there are some massive discounts on the Octavia vRS. Although am I right thinking this scheme only applies to electric passenger vehicles?
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Hmmm we'll see.
List prices of new vehicles have already become ridiculous. If there are no meaningful discounts off list price this might lean me towards buying used, or towards a different brand.
In the video he mentioned that Skoda had been doing this for some time, yet look on Drive the Deal and there are some massive discounts on the Octavia vRS. Although am I right thinking this scheme only applies to electric passenger vehicles?
Good question!
From the Fleet News article at the link below;
’The agency model covers all fleet sales, as well as sales of electric vehicles (EVs) to private individuals’.
‘The franchise model continues for the sale of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles to private individuals’
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/manufacturer-news/2022/12/02/vw-group-creates-new-sales-roles-as-it-progresses-down-agency-route
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I think most of the on-line deal sites used the fleet sales side of dealers to get their big discounts.
That will be a serious threat to their business model.
Which in turn will remove the negotiating lever when dealing in person with dealer sales.
So, not good news for buying a new GTI.
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There’s now information on VW UK website in relation to the agency model and Manifacturer’s Direct Pricing (MDP) for the ID range of EV’s;
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/legal/mdp-explained.html
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Basically this about expanding vw's margins at the expense of both dealers and customers.
There's no upside for consumers.
Vw say about "confusion" over prices. There's no confusion in my book, just a chance to negotiate a discount.
CMA complaint coming up!
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Basically this about expanding vw's margins at the expense of both dealers and customers.
There's no upside for consumers.
Vw say about "confusion" over prices. There's no confusion in my book, just a chance to negotiate a discount.
CMA complaint coming up!
No confusion in my book either. I’ve always done my homework before starting negotiations on the price of my next car with the dealer - I’ve known what VW’s list price is, what the typical discounts are and how much I’m prepared to pay.
I negotiated a 16% discount on my current car. I wouldn't have bought it if I’d had to pay VW’s list price.
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Cma complaint raised!
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Didn't Daewoo try this about 30 years ago.
That went well...
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Basically this about expanding vw's margins at the expense of both dealers and customers.
There's no upside for consumers.
Vw say about "confusion" over prices. There's no confusion in my book, just a chance to negotiate a discount.
CMA complaint coming up!
Removing the opportunity to negotiate a discount by "making it fairer to all" - everyone pays more.
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What with the latest models so visually unattractive/dull, rising prices and now this - I think my 20 year romance with VW is drawing to a close sadly.
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What with the latest models so visually unattractive/dull, rising prices and now this - I think my 20 year romance with VW is drawing to a close sadly.
know the feeling and don't think we will be the only ones.
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It's a cracking idea. The Koreans are eating German's lunches and the Chinese are in the wings while all they can think of in Wolfsberg is how to accelerate the process...
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I jumped ship from VW in disgust after over 3 decades in 2020. Didn’t plan on returning anytime soon.
Turns out that lasted 4 months :whistle: 😁
Cupra have done exactly the same as VW with their electric models, the Born was only ever available direct from Cupra (via dealers) so it seems VW tested the water with their more niche brands before edging themselves into the agency system.
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Simply could not afford the new 'new' prices, the circa £50 k is luxury prices for me, and so what was once affordable is not, and though could finance and have a set ownership and commitment, really do not want to tie myself into what are quite heavy payments still.
And if prices are fixed and there is zero chance of discount, all just said is more so, as even the strongest willed can sometimes be tempted by an exceptional deal.
This is my last company car, was super lucky to get the 128Ti, the choice of cars now is bare bones as discounts have dried up, had a Golf R and TCR with small refund on my allowance, them cars no longer on there, and had to pay a nominal lift to get the 128Ti. With the BIK it used to be a balance act to worth, great car, fully wrapped insurance and servicing etc, but cars available will certainly not be worth the cost, but the 128Ti has thankfully proven to be a great run out car and made it worth it, before go private ownership again.
So its second hand now all the way for me, and would naturally be looking at MK 8 R, Clubsport normally, as they are in my affordable band now, and would really like to get into one, but the fear of picking up a glitchy lemon rules that out, so it looks like it will be a run out MK 7.5 R/GTI with lowest mileage can find when this 128Ti goes back. (though will look at M135i as an outside replacement, but do need to test drive as there are some minor drive irritants on the 128Ti that would like to see if AWD eradicates))
Wife's car is a 2019 R and i do occasionally grab it off her, and its always a pleasure, it genuinely gives you everything ever need from a car, including tech now, which was always a downfall of owning an older car, and its timeless in looks and the interior with the digital display and decent entertainment system still has a modern edge. They still keeping their price, but creeping downwards still, and for over half the price of a new one, its not a hard decision.
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The other thing with this new model of, same price no discount is that what is the incentive to provide good service at the dealers.
Most sales don't really give a sh!t when they are gettipaid commission!
Then the fact that as said most GTi and R models are silly money even with a discount really, so 50k plus for a GTI mk8.5 will be a definite no from almost all I would imagine.
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It's a cracking idea. The Koreans are eating German's lunches and the Chinese are in the wings while all they can think of in Wolfsberg is how to accelerate the process...
I am little out of touch with the alternatives, cannot think of anything that sticks out when drive around, aside from the Hyundai 120N which could see myself in, but think fuel consumption was pretty pants last time updated myself.
So tend just to notice the usual suspects, GTI, R, S3, A35, A45, M135i and so on, but nothing that jumps out from other brands, particularly Korean, Chinese etc, and that maybe because just not looking, so be interested to have some cars to start looking for?
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I'm not talking about hot hatches. I mean in general. Where people just buy a car.
That's actually where vw's sales come from.
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I'm not talking about hot hatches. I mean in general. Where people just buy a car.
That's actually where vw's sales come from.
Yes, did get that, but was thinking about genuine alternatives to type of car personally look for, as not had anything but VAG or present BMW in 25 +years, and only one can think of, and would actually be more than OK giving a go is the Hyundai 120N
So, to wider group, what are the alternative hot hatches anyone has any experience of outside of the VAG, BMW stable
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I did the whole hot hatch eval before I bought my Mk8... Hated the BMW (there's a thread on here somewhere with my thoughts on that), Minis are basically the same as the 1 series (hate them - we have 2 here, both waaaay too hard and uncomfortable for me), there's rest of VAG but no thanks, Mercedes are simply unreliable garbage, Renault don't make a hot hatch AFAIK any more, Honda have ended the Type R (but also definitely not for me), Ford no thanks and that leaves the fuel guzzling/hard af/noisy I30N.
Hot hatches like sports bikes are a dying breed in this day and age. Those that haven't quit the market will be doing so soon.
Its been fun, I've had a few, but The Day Of the Milkfloat(tm) is here now, which are basically fast in a straight line super tankers that aren't any fun really and recharging is a nightmare.
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I did the whole hot hatch eval before I bought my Mk8... Hated the BMW (there's a thread on here somewhere with my thoughts on that), Minis are basically the same as the 1 series (hate them - we have 2 here, both waaaay too hard and uncomfortable for me), there's rest of VAG but no thanks, Mercedes are simply unreliable garbage, Renault don't make a hot hatch AFAIK any more, Honda have ended the Type R (but also definitely not for me), Ford no thanks and that leaves the fuel guzzling/hard af/noisy I30N.
Hot hatches like sports bikes are a dying breed in this day and age. Those that haven't quit the market will be doing so soon.
Its been fun, I've had a few, but The Day Of the Milkfloat(tm) is here now, which are basically fast in a straight line super tankers that aren't any fun really and recharging is a nightmare.
Sad but very true, at least we had many great cars over there years now drivers now won't have much to look forward too!
Also roads and traffic thses days hardly make driving that enjoyable any more you can't really use a hot hatch as it should be used 95% of the time!
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All points are covered well in this thread.
The reason there isn’t a huge debate as to which hot hatch to buy as an alternative to the GTI/R/GTD is there just aren’t any anymore. Legislation and leviathan SUV’s have all but finished the small and medium hot hatch class with just the die hard models remaining.
It’s not like people think hot hatches are uncool nowadays as I find that youngsters do comment positively and even my hairdressers teenage son loved my Clubsport.
High list prices, high APR and crap residuals plus unaffordable insurance will be the final nails in the coffin. Even a trainee geriatric like me is getting insurance renewals of nearly a grand now when a few years ago it was £200. How are guys in their 20’s going to afford the insurance never mind paying for the cars themselves with extortionate rent costs or 40 year mortgages to contend with?
As Hertsman says, the money is better spent on a tidy late model 7.5 to cherish before they mostly get too ratty to make gamble free purchases.
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As Hertsman says, the money is better spent on a tidy late model 7.5 to cherish before they mostly get too ratty to make gamble free purchases.
Exactly why my GTI is remaining exactly where it is for a long, long time.
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Yep.
And the reactions to it are very gratifying.
If any car could be an “ investment”, this might be.
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The way all this is heading, who actually will be the target market for an 8.5?
If discounts have gone and prices start north of 40 plus “luxury” tax, I’m not sure much of a market exists.
If there is a market, the volume has gone now.
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As was pointed out at the beginning (unless this has changed) this only applies to new passenger EVs and not ICE cars - as they say a week is along time in politics and ten years is a lifetime between now and 2035 - they've swerved once on the 2030 to 2035 date.... who knows?
Yes 50K for a new Golf is way too much but some of us could be looking at a 1-2 year old cars, although I'll be in my 7.5 for as long as possiblly can.
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As was pointed out at the beginning (unless this has changed) this only applies to new passenger EVs and not ICE cars - as they say a week is along time in politics and ten years is a lifetime between now and 2035 - they've swerved once on the 2030 to 2035 date.... who knows?
Yes 50K for a new Golf is way too much but some of us could be looking at a 1-2 year old cars, although I'll be in my 7.5 for as long as possiblly can.
Can't see this sellmodel staying with electric cars only.
This is just to get everyone into how it will work test the water and then soon enough thisbwill be the way it is for all.
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As was pointed out at the beginning (unless this has changed) this only applies to new passenger EVs and not ICE cars - as they say a week is along time in politics and ten years is a lifetime between now and 2035 - they've swerved once on the 2030 to 2035 date.... who knows?
Yes 50K for a new Golf is way too much but some of us could be looking at a 1-2 year old cars, although I'll be in my 7.5 for as long as possiblly can.
Can't see this sellmodel staying with electric cars only.
This is just to get everyone into how it will work test the water and then soon enough thisbwill be the way it is for all.
Agree.
If you can live without a hot hatch, then it’s worth considering other car manufacturers who have said they have no plans to adopt the agency model.
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@Hertsman. New cars that have any excitement in them and are under £40k are now getting few and far between.
Even Hyundai with i20N & i30N seem to be on shaky ground. it was a year old but I watched a video report that suggested Hyundai was not going to keep them going. Neither are available to order from factory at present. Although there has been autumn sightings of i30N there doesn’t seem to be any certainty of it being for Europe. So who knows. at present it’s under £40k but any new model might go through barrier if anything does launch,
Only thing that is appearing is GR Yaris but not really a family hatch. That will hopefully be under £40k
The VED rates keep marching upwards so the current £570 pa could well be £600 plus by time of budget.
I checked Drivethedeal in January and all the normal VW vehicles had been pulled. The planned switch to agency model isn’t great for consumers, but perhaps when the market collapses they will realise the error of their ways.
However we are entering new ground with the ever tightening CO2 emissions average targets and also the Zero Emissions Vehicle Mandate from 1 Jan 2024.
When manufacturers are trying to balance their sales…guess which models will be the easiest to drop (or limit supply). I suggest that performance Golf orders are not likely to speed up and I think (although makers will deny it) the high performance models will be closely controlled and sales limited to aid their other targets that need to be met.
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I wonder how many of the 1.9 million car sales last year were actually sold at less than the rep though?
You have to remember we here are an odd bunch. We like hot hatches and we fight for a bargain to get one.
I think that represents a drop in the ocean vs 1.9 million sales...
The biggest impact will be on leasing I'd have thought. Although I suspect it will be a temporary blip because once one business "has a good idea" the others jump on the bandwagon fairly quickly...
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I am not averse to EV hot hatches, my present issue with EV is the whole charging scenario, for someone who does not have a drive and does occasionally do some distance driving its a no from me, the double no, is that there is not a single car like the the look of, and performs in manner of cars look to drive.
However, we have seen the concept GTI and we know EV are capable of some ridiculous performance, so is there hope yet for matching GTI and R performance EV's?
They are building a charging super hub near me off a main junction, so if infrastructure does improve to point its a similar experience to what have now of fill up (charge up) and certain 300 miles, then i am closer, but early cars costs would be prohibitive still imagine, similar if not more to MK8 prices.
Would say, they might be more accessible on company scheme with the zero/reduced BIK, but no way the government do not close that down, and they will just levy a charge that is not linked to c02
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BIK on zero emissions vehicles is 2% and rises 1% a year for 2025 to 2028.
Beyond that who's to say.
Almost certainly at some point this year we will get a regime change too and what they decide to do is anyone's guess but they have said they will reinstate the 2030 target I believe.
I would say this is the time for one last roll of the dice on a petrol hot hatch but I think I've had that roll already three years ago.
I did think bev might have advanced enough for me to not find it useless by now but that's not true either.
I think it's dull cheap petrol motoring for me at some point this year. I've had my fun.
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BIK on zero emissions vehicles is 2% and rises 1% a year for 2025 to 2028.
Beyond that who's to say.
Almost certainly at some point this year we will get a regime change too and what they decide to do is anyone's guess but they have said they will reinstate the 2030 target I believe.
I would say this is the time for one last roll of the dice on a petrol hot hatch but I think I've had that roll already three years ago.
I did think bev might have advanced enough for me to not find it useless by now but that's not true either.
I think it's dull cheap petrol motoring for me at some point this year. I've had my fun.
Bought wife a 2019 R late last year, relatively low mileage, immaculate, drives great, 300BHP and AWD will never be not enough, and being the run out MK 7.5 has all the tech would need and though there is always potential to issue, the O/S is robust and reliability track record is sound.
When my 128Ti goes back next year, no way be looking at new, it will be at these MK 7.5 Golfs or maybe a M135i just to keep me going long enough till some of the last performance hatches of coming years fall into my price band, and then hopefully the generation of performance EV's come online.
So, my answer to way everything going is 5 + years cars, but the ground is different now, older cars used to lack tech, and some performance in comparison to new, but that's not a gap anymore, you lose nothing in experience in a near older car now.
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Looks like Cupra have been listening (on your performance EV request)....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp)
@Hertsman - I agree that 2nd hand cars seem to be the way to go with new prices getting so high
@fredgroves - yes I think you're right the performance car market for new cars might be 10-15% of the new car total. So if we stop buying the makers probably won't be too bothered.
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Looks like Cupra have been listening (on your performance EV request)....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp)
@Hertsman - I agree that 2nd hand cars seem to be the way to go with new prices getting so high
@fredgroves - yes I think you're right the performance car market for new cars might be 10-15% of the new car total. So if we stop buying the makers probably won't be too bothered.
It looks good, but to my uneducated eyes, pretty damn close to the concept eGTI and so are they are one of the same? Also, likely to be around £50,000? its just too much!
I am pretty rubbish on understanding EV, is the mild performance, despite 322BHP down to weight?
Also, is that 335 miles range based on urban driving, could that be below 200 if car is driven to its performance badge?
My trust in my fuel gauge is pretty good, it linearly drops even if pushing along and know with some certainty when need to refuel, do have this fear that you driving along with over 100 miles range, put foot down a bit and its suddenly flashing need to recharge soon, much like my Iphone when it's at 70%, play some videos etc, and you into the red
Also on EV, have read stories where if batteries 'go' and need replacing that would cost more than car, so car is a scrapper, so doubt want to own an EV, some form or lease would seem savvy. And also, are all these batteries going to be recycled at end of life?
If EV experience were like running an ICE, the what drives it would not bother me, but costly to buy and still too many questions for me and so my driving experience will remain ICE and in the 5 year + territory.
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Looks like Cupra have been listening (on your performance EV request)....
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-cupra-born-vz-hot-hatch-boosts-power-322bhp)
@Hertsman - I agree that 2nd hand cars seem to be the way to go with new prices getting so high
@fredgroves - yes I think you're right the performance car market for new cars might be 10-15% of the new car total. So if we stop buying the makers probably won't be too bothered.
It looks good, but to my uneducated eyes, pretty damn close to the concept eGTI and so are they are one of the same? Also, likely to be around £50,000? its just too much!
I am pretty rubbish on understanding EV, is the mild performance, despite 322BHP down to weight?
Also, is that 335 miles range based on urban driving, could that be below 200 if car is driven to its performance badge?
My trust in my fuel gauge is pretty good, it linearly drops even if pushing along and know with some certainty when need to refuel, do have this fear that you driving along with over 100 miles range, put foot down a bit and its suddenly flashing need to recharge soon, much like my Iphone when it's at 70%, play some videos etc, and you into the red
Also on EV, have read stories where if batteries 'go' and need replacing that would cost more than car, so car is a scrapper, so doubt want to own an EV, some form or lease would seem savvy. And also, are all these batteries going to be recycled at end of life?
If EV experience were like running an ICE, the what drives it would not bother me, but costly to buy and still too many questions for me and so my driving experience will remain ICE and in the 5 year + territory.
Haha yes I think it will be £50k or plus
No it’s not related to the GTI concept. The Cupra Born is linked to ID3 so it’s on MEB platform.
The EV GTI concept is based on ID2 and that’s a cut down version of MEB platform. The Golf mk9 (EV) is planned to be on the new SSP platform and won’t appear until 2028
Range wise, yes the 335mile range should probably be taken with pinch of salt, taking rough measure of range being about 80% so maybe 270mile range
Yes it’s all (relatively) early days in Electric world (yes I know Nissan leaf was about 2010j but I’m just saying batteries still fairly similar ie wet cells. Will we get solid state and will they be amazing for efficiency, range and performance.
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The problem with BEV range is that its down to a lot of factors....
it performs better in stop start urban driving and not motorway (yes counter intuitive for ICE drivers)
Things like having the heating on really kills the batteries (an electric heater is all you have.... no heat from the engine!)
Lastly ambient temperature effects the battery - cold is very bad.
So a typical UK cold wet winter with you having the heating, lights, windscreen wipers on etc and trying to go down the motorway.... the range is really going to drop right off.
I'm sure MonkeyHanger wrote a lot about his BEV experiences on here - which pretty much align with other opinions.
Pretty certain that newer battery tech will fix this, but when is it coming? Its always "soon". Its supposed to be faster charging (assuming you can find the right charger...), longer range, lighter and less vulnerable to cold problems.
Which then gives me uncertainty about buying old tech that will be worthless once the new batteries come along.
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The problem with BEV range is that its down to a lot of factors....
it performs better in stop start urban driving and not motorway (yes counter intuitive for ICE drivers)
Things like having the heating on really kills the batteries (an electric heater is all you have.... no heat from the engine!)
Lastly ambient temperature effects the battery - cold is very bad.
So a typical UK cold wet winter with you having the heating, lights, windscreen wipers on etc and trying to go down the motorway.... the range is really going to drop right off.
I'm sure MonkeyHanger wrote a lot about his BEV experiences on here - which pretty much align with other opinions.
Pretty certain that newer battery tech will fix this, but when is it coming? Its always "soon". Its supposed to be faster charging (assuming you can find the right charger...), longer range, lighter and less vulnerable to cold problems.
Which then gives me uncertainty about buying old tech that will be worthless once the new batteries come along.
I've already got the current quickest Born, the v2 e-boost 231ps, so I can let you know first hand about efficiencies.
Cold weather kills efficiency on EVs, because the battery array needs to be warmed to use it. For short journeys e.g. 2 mile school run, the battery warming takes as much energy as moving the car. At 0C, on that 2 mile school run, I'm lucky if I hit 2 miles per kWh. It's 4 miles per kWh in the Summer.
On a long motorway run, in Winter, eventually the battery warming effect wears off and you can get around 3.0 miles per kWh sat at 70 on a 100 mile+ run if you have the cabin heating on a minimum 16C. If you need cabin heating like a reptile does, figure more like 2.6 miles per kWh. In the height of Summer, you can do 3.9 miles per kWh sat on the motorway with the aircon on.
The "new" battery size of 79kWh seems the same as the old one, with less headrace. All batteries are bigger than their stated capacity. This one has an 82kWh actual capacity, with 77 or 79 kWh usable (this is to prevent overcharging or thermal variation overloading cells), mine is the 58kWh variant (usable), with 62kWh actual capacity.
Given its weight, the Born is quite agile (compared to pretty much every other BEV out there), but it's like chucking a bog standard Golf about, it's no chuckable hot hatch. Given that the 77kWh battery pack Born weighs in at a hefty 1970ish kg, this is no GTI.
If you scale up my figures for the bigger battery, you're talking a realistic 213 motorway miles at 70mph in Winter for this car with low heating, charged to 100% down to 10% before you really feel you need to stop for a charge.
Figure 277 Summer motorway miles on same terms. Knock 20% off these figures for driving at 80mph. Rapid charging costs about 79p per kWh motorway adjacent right now, so your costs per mile go up by a third in Winter. 20p per mile away from home in the Summer and 27p per mile in the Winter - dearer than fuelling a Golf R/S3.
For me, BEVs only make sense if you have a home charger and very rarely venture beyond its range. No-one is buying BEVs privately brand new right now, it's just fleet sales, as a result, the depreciation is horrendous - these cars on PCP will be handed back at a loss, worth about 80% of the HFV quoted for ours. When we bought ours 2 years ago new, GFV was about £21k at 3 years, Motorway value it at about that now. If you buy a BEV, don't buy new, they lose too much, grab a used bargain.
Most BEVs with amazing 0-62 times are one trick ponies and handle like sh!te outside a straight line. My nate just leased a Smart #1 Brabus with 3.8s 0-62, but it corner like a double decker bus, and looks like a Golf sized Vauxhall Adam. :sick:
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The problem with BEV range is that its down to a lot of factors....
it performs better in stop start urban driving and not motorway (yes counter intuitive for ICE drivers)
Things like having the heating on really kills the batteries (an electric heater is all you have.... no heat from the engine!)
Lastly ambient temperature effects the battery - cold is very bad.
So a typical UK cold wet winter with you having the heating, lights, windscreen wipers on etc and trying to go down the motorway.... the range is really going to drop right off.
I'm sure MonkeyHanger wrote a lot about his BEV experiences on here - which pretty much align with other opinions.
Pretty certain that newer battery tech will fix this, but when is it coming? Its always "soon". Its supposed to be faster charging (assuming you can find the right charger...), longer range, lighter and less vulnerable to cold problems.
Which then gives me uncertainty about buying old tech that will be worthless once the new batteries come along.
I've already got the current quickest Born, the v2 e-boost 231ps, so I can let you know first hand about efficiencies.
Cold weather kills efficiency on EVs, because the battery array needs to be warmed to use it. For short journeys e.g. 2 mile school run, the battery warming takes as much energy as moving the car. At 0C, on that 2 mile school run, I'm lucky if I hit 2 miles per kWh. It's 4 miles per kWh in the Summer.
On a long motorway run, in Winter, eventually the battery warming effect wears off and you can get around 3.0 miles per kWh sat at 70 on a 100 mile+ run if you have the cabin heating on a minimum 16C. If you need cabin heating like a reptile does, figure more like 2.6 miles per kWh. In the height of Summer, you can do 3.9 miles per kWh sat on the motorway with the aircon on.
The "new" battery size of 79kWh seems the same as the old one, with less headrace. All batteries are bigger than their stated capacity. This one has an 82kWh actual capacity, with 77 or 79 kWh usable (this is to prevent overcharging or thermal variation overloading cells), mine is the 58kWh variant (usable), with 62kWh actual capacity.
Given its weight, the Born is quite agile (compared to pretty much every other BEV out there), but it's like chucking a bog standard Golf about, it's no chuckable hot hatch. Given that the 77kWh battery pack Born weighs in at a hefty 1970ish kg, this is no GTI.
If you scale up my figures for the bigger battery, you're talking a realistic 213 motorway miles at 70mph in Winter for this car with low heating, charged to 100% down to 10% before you really feel you need to stop for a charge.
Figure 277 Summer motorway miles on same terms. Knock 20% off these figures for driving at 80mph. Rapid charging costs about 79p per kWh motorway adjacent right now, so your costs per mile go up by a third in Winter. 20p per mile away from home in the Summer and 27p per mile in the Winter - dearer than fuelling a Golf R/S3.
For me, BEVs only make sense if you have a home charger and very rarely venture beyond its range. No-one is buying BEVs privately brand new right now, it's just fleet sales, as a result, the depreciation is horrendous - these cars on PCP will be handed back at a loss, worth about 80% of the HFV quoted for ours. When we bought ours 2 years ago new, GFV was about £21k at 3 years, Motorway value it at about that now. If you buy a BEV, don't buy new, they lose too much, grab a used bargain.
Most BEVs with amazing 0-62 times are one trick ponies and handle like sh!te outside a straight line. My nate just leased a Smart #1 Brabus with 3.8s 0-62, but it corner like a double decker bus, and looks like a Golf sized Vauxhall Adam. :sick:
Makes a change to read an honest EV review instead of the usual (well I bought one so must justify to myself I made the right decision even thou I regret it)
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The problem with BEV range is that its down to a lot of factors....
it performs better in stop start urban driving and not motorway (yes counter intuitive for ICE drivers)
Things like having the heating on really kills the batteries (an electric heater is all you have.... no heat from the engine!)
Lastly ambient temperature effects the battery - cold is very bad.
So a typical UK cold wet winter with you having the heating, lights, windscreen wipers on etc and trying to go down the motorway.... the range is really going to drop right off.
I'm sure MonkeyHanger wrote a lot about his BEV experiences on here - which pretty much align with other opinions.
Pretty certain that newer battery tech will fix this, but when is it coming? Its always "soon". Its supposed to be faster charging (assuming you can find the right charger...), longer range, lighter and less vulnerable to cold problems.
Which then gives me uncertainty about buying old tech that will be worthless once the new batteries come along.
I've already got the current quickest Born, the v2 e-boost 231ps, so I can let you know first hand about efficiencies.
Cold weather kills efficiency on EVs, because the battery array needs to be warmed to use it. For short journeys e.g. 2 mile school run, the battery warming takes as much energy as moving the car. At 0C, on that 2 mile school run, I'm lucky if I hit 2 miles per kWh. It's 4 miles per kWh in the Summer.
On a long motorway run, in Winter, eventually the battery warming effect wears off and you can get around 3.0 miles per kWh sat at 70 on a 100 mile+ run if you have the cabin heating on a minimum 16C. If you need cabin heating like a reptile does, figure more like 2.6 miles per kWh. In the height of Summer, you can do 3.9 miles per kWh sat on the motorway with the aircon on.
The "new" battery size of 79kWh seems the same as the old one, with less headrace. All batteries are bigger than their stated capacity. This one has an 82kWh actual capacity, with 77 or 79 kWh usable (this is to prevent overcharging or thermal variation overloading cells), mine is the 58kWh variant (usable), with 62kWh actual capacity.
Given its weight, the Born is quite agile (compared to pretty much every other BEV out there), but it's like chucking a bog standard Golf about, it's no chuckable hot hatch. Given that the 77kWh battery pack Born weighs in at a hefty 1970ish kg, this is no GTI.
If you scale up my figures for the bigger battery, you're talking a realistic 213 motorway miles at 70mph in Winter for this car with low heating, charged to 100% down to 10% before you really feel you need to stop for a charge.
Figure 277 Summer motorway miles on same terms. Knock 20% off these figures for driving at 80mph. Rapid charging costs about 79p per kWh motorway adjacent right now, so your costs per mile go up by a third in Winter. 20p per mile away from home in the Summer and 27p per mile in the Winter - dearer than fuelling a Golf R/S3.
For me, BEVs only make sense if you have a home charger and very rarely venture beyond its range. No-one is buying BEVs privately brand new right now, it's just fleet sales, as a result, the depreciation is horrendous - these cars on PCP will be handed back at a loss, worth about 80% of the HFV quoted for ours. When we bought ours 2 years ago new, GFV was about £21k at 3 years, Motorway value it at about that now. If you buy a BEV, don't buy new, they lose too much, grab a used bargain.
Most BEVs with amazing 0-62 times are one trick ponies and handle like sh!te outside a straight line. My nate just leased a Smart #1 Brabus with 3.8s 0-62, but it corner like a double decker bus, and looks like a Golf sized Vauxhall Adam. :sick:
Thanks @Monkeyhanger. It’s good to see your thoughts again and it’s interesting to read about your experiences with all your vehicles.
Would you say in addition to the urban driving being better suited to EVs, is A road travel a good use of an EV (putting aside handling question)
Yes some of the ultra rapid charger (and even fast charger) prices are ridiculous from what I have seen. What I do find interesting is the Tesla superchargers which are Open to all are down in 51-59p per kWh range (lower if you take out the monthly subscription but that is only worth it with doing a lot of miles).
I notice a lot of VAG group were doing or are doing 0% PCP but these are mainly end of line before facelifts. But do you think a 0% deal (2 or 3yr) would make some sense? But would the GFV have to be a reasonable level or else your monthly payment is just covering the huge depreciation the EV would sustain.
It’s just interesting to see the evolution of the EV happening and now that more “normal” cars are appearing as EVs rather than constant stream of SUV derivatives makes it more interesting.
I do have a drive so home charging would be possible but the wider charging network for those times when you have to stray beyond your range does mean you need to go into it with your eyes open.
Don’t think I would be jumping this year, but it’s just interesting to read your own real world experiences and so interesting you got back into ICE via the S3. how are you enjoying it?
As @Hertsman has already said with cost of new cars, mine is more than likely a second hand one.
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Thanks @Monkeyhanger. It’s good to see your thoughts again and it’s interesting to read about your experiences with all your vehicles.
Would you say in addition to the urban driving being better suited to EVs, is A road travel a good use of an EV (putting aside handling question)
Yes some of the ultra rapid charger (and even fast charger) prices are ridiculous from what I have seen. What I do find interesting is the Tesla superchargers which are Open to all are down in 51-59p per kWh range (lower if you take out the monthly subscription but that is only worth it with doing a lot of miles).
I notice a lot of VAG group were doing or are doing 0% PCP but these are mainly end of line before facelifts. But do you think a 0% deal (2 or 3yr) would make some sense? But would the GFV have to be a reasonable level or else your monthly payment is just covering the huge depreciation the EV would sustain.
It’s just interesting to see the evolution of the EV happening and now that more “normal” cars are appearing as EVs rather than constant stream of SUV derivatives makes it more interesting.
I do have a drive so home charging would be possible but the wider charging network for those times when you have to stray beyond your range does mean you need to go into it with your eyes open.
Don’t think I would be jumping this year, but it’s just interesting to read your own real world experiences and so interesting you got back into ICE via the S3. how are you enjoying it?
As @Hertsman has already said with cost of new cars, mine is more than likely a second hand one.
For me, the best thing about EV driving is remote car preheating in the Winter.
I would say that if you have no possibility of home charging, don't even think about an EV until you have to.
They drive fine in a sterile sort of way, as I said, a one trick pony in the 0-62 times for most of them, but it requires no skill at all to launch. Even the mundane EVs will beat most exotic petrol cars 0-20mph - instant full torque from 0 rpm.
Something I didn't mention is that this new Born will weigh about 160kg more than mine due to that bigger battery, I can't see VAG being able to hide that weight with better handling than the 58kWh version that I have.
The Born (and ID3) are a change from the usual SUV horde of EVs, and inside it's got an interior as big as a Passat (less bonnet, more cabin).
They drive fine for no thrills driving. Until they can get battery tech that allows for 1500kg kerb weight to make them nimble, driving a powerful EV is going to be like driving an unladen Arctic lorry cab.
The brake regen is fairly effective at levelling the playing field on terms of an uneconomic driving mode. I'm 20% more efficient than the wife in the S3 (good anticipations, coming off the accelerator earlier rather than braking late). In the Born, there's 5% between us. It doesn't replace braking, but I'd say 80% of my slowing down in the Born is covered by regen, which is about 70% efficient in recovering momentum rather than converting it to brake disk/pad heat.
The residuals on BEVs are too shaky right now to buy a new one. Buy a 2 year old one for half price (or less). I wouldn't have bought the Born new if I'd known how far the residuals would tumble.We bought 2 Borns off the back of buying 2 ID3s at a bargain price (£28k paid, on a £36k RRP) in 2021, and selling them a year later for £38k (where trade were selling them to Uber drivers for £44k as the Ukraine war had buggered supply of key components).
We bought 2 Borns at the height of the bubble for full RRP (£38.5k), so man maths says they only cost us £28k.
After getting a job that required a once a month 480 mile round trip, that Born commute became a PITA - rapid charging prices doubled, as more people got EVs, there seemed to be a 60% chance you would arrive at a charger due to necessity, to find it occupied and having to wait to get on it, and then wait 40 mins for the actual charge - I just wanted to get home. I sold my Born (wife kept hers, and it works well as a second car) at a time that almost no trader was touching BEVs, following Teslas shock £9k RRP drop absolutely devastating used values and leaving a lot of traders out of pocket. I got £31.2k for it a year old and consider myself lucky to get that, had to really ask about to get someone to buy it.
I do think that everyone who wanted a new BEV with their own money has had their curiosity satisfied and have generally been stung. The supply of new BEVs is pretty much just company cars propped up by rock bottom BiK.
My neighbour has his own business and got a Merc EQC 400 EV through it. The lease was up next year, but he gave it back early to get a Ford Ranger Thunder double cab pick up - read into that what you will.
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If you buy a BEV, don't buy new, they lose too much, grab a used bargain.
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But then the problem with this is the reduced maximum capacity for a BEV that's been used for a couple of years or more as you have no idea how the previous owner has looked after the battery. If they've always depleted it fairly quickly, used fast chargers regularly, and not tried to keep it between 50 and 80% charge, then the max capacity will be far less than when new :shocked:
They need make it easy for the cars to show the current max capacity, and it should be advertised when selling a used BEV!
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If you buy a BEV, don't buy new, they lose too much, grab a used bargain.
But then the problem with this is the reduced maximum capacity for a BEV that's been used for a couple of years or more as you have no idea how the previous owner has looked after the battery. If they've always depleted it fairly quickly, used fast chargers regularly, and not tried to keep it between 50 and 80% charge, then the max capacity will be far less than when new :shocked:
They need make it easy for the cars to show the current max capacity, and it should be advertised when selling a used BEV!
[/quote]
The newer generations of batteries are more robust than the ye olde Nissan Leaf/Renault Zoe batteries with no temperature management and different battery chemistry. If there's a battery hammered by rapid charging, it'll likely have a high mileage. The current crop of batteries have an 8 year warranty - you're on shakier ground buying an out of warranty 9 year old battery vs a 2 or 3 year old BEV.
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I'll bet the battery warranty isn't transferable if it's a VAG...
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I'll bet the battery warranty isn't transferable if it's a VAG...
Apparently it is. Needs to still carry 70% of its rated charge at 100k miles or 8 years, whichever comes first. They don't need to replace as a whole, just swap out enough cells to get you back over the 70%.
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Blimey you could knock me down with a feather!
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Earlier we talked about alternative hot hatches...
So not these as a choice..
https://www.evo.co.uk/hyundai/206546/hyundai-i30-n-and-i20-n-axed
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Even Hyundai with i20N & i30N seem to be on shaky ground. it was a year old but I watched a video report that suggested Hyundai was not going to keep them going. Neither are available to order from factory at present. Although there has been autumn sightings of i30N there doesn’t seem to be any certainty of it being for Europe. So who knows. at present it’s under £40k but any new model might go through barrier if anything does launch,
Earlier we talked about alternative hot hatches...
So not these as a choice..
https://www.evo.co.uk/hyundai/206546/hyundai-i30-n-and-i20-n-axed
Oh no, Another (two) bite the dust.
It’s not a surprise but that is a shame, but @Fredgroves I remember you commenting after a test drive about the engine tech not being as advanced as VW and the pretty terrible economy. But end of an era (ok they were only around for 7yrs and they proved they could do it.
the choice is getting limited VAG Group, BMW, Toyota.
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Oh no, Another (two) bite the dust.
It’s not a surprise but that is a shame, but @Fredgroves I remember you commenting after a test drive about the engine tech not being as advanced as VW and the pretty terrible economy. But end of an era (ok they were only around for 7yrs and they proved they could do it.
the choice is getting limited VAG Group, BMW, Toyota.
I think I decided some time ago that my current car will be my last hot hatch. With the roads being as heavily congested as they are these days, coupled with the fact that I don’t do that many miles now, a ‘normal’ car will probably fit the bill just fine. I used to enjoy driving - not so much now, and I no longer go for a drive just for pleasure, as I no longer find driving to be a very pleasurable experience :sad:.
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I'm starting to feel the same way SRGTD, but I can't get that thought out of my head that I'd still want 'one more' go. Like a gambler in Vegas at 5am.....just one more.
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I'm starting to feel the same way SRGTD, but I can't get the thought out of my head that I'd still want 'one more' go. Like a gambler in Vegas at 5am.....just one more.
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I'm starting to feel the same way SRGTD, but I can't get that thought out of my head that I'd still want 'one more' go. Like a gambler in Vegas at 5am.....just one more.
https://youtu.be/2wBUYG6_YMI?si=4isgRbiHC50T0XQ9
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I'm starting to feel the same way SRGTD, but I can't get that thought out of my head that I'd still want 'one more' go. Like a gambler in Vegas at 5am.....just one more.
https://youtu.be/2wBUYG6_YMI?si=4isgRbiHC50T0XQ9
Ok @Exonian I’m going to take your post literally and the advice I’m taking away is that everyone should buy a Golf GTI.
No one can persuade me otherwise :whistle:
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Everyone *should* buy a Golf GTI at least once in their lifetime but not necessarily a new one at £40k+! 😁