GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => Shows, events, track days, motorsport => Topic started by: DOA on 01 May 2012, 21:58
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Yes I have searched and even tried to post in the last track day pads thread but it suggested I start a new thread (go figure :shocked: though it did turn into a slanging match) so here goes.
Basically I am looking for recomendations on track suitable pads for my Mk2 8V. Sadly, due to the regulations of the sprint series I am going to be entering I have to run standard brakes all round so am in the process of refreshing the complete system (new discs all round, wheel bearings, standard pads at the rear and any hoses/hard lines that look remotely in need of refreshing). Please note, I dont have the handy option to run either 256mm, 280mm or 288mm brakes (annoying as I have a full mk3 front end in the garage lol) so please no suggestions along that route :smiley:. Also, I have no intention of spending a fortune on expensive/special brake fluids as I fully understand the limitations of this approach so again, no suggestions along those lines please :smiley:.
So down to the recomendations and Im going to ask you to be a bit specific if at all possible as the plan at present is to run the car in sprints and the occasional track day as well as using the car on the road from time to time as the fancy takes me. The specifics I am looking for are as follows:
1: Ease of bedding in
2: Ultimate stopping power
3: Progression, feel and modulation
4: Life
5: Brake dust
6: Brake squeel
7: Warm up time (pretty important due to road use and sprint format!)
8: Useability on the road
I know this is an extensive list but any feedback you can give is appreciated!
Now to my options. I have had a good look around and have come up with the following list of potentials for the time being based mainly on cost (sub £100 bracket) and other recommendations so any feedback on these options in particular is of interest:
1: Ferrodo DS2500 - rated very highly by a friend who races an e30 325i in terms of stopping power, fell/progression/modulation but some worries about life.
2: Ferrodo DS3000
3: Mintex 1144
4: Mintex 1177
I must point out that I have already discounted any of EBC and Black Diamond products based purely on bad feedback I have come across repeatedly elsewhere but any other options will be gladly looked at :smiley:.
Thanks in advance.
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http://www.performancefriction.com
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http://www.performancefriction.com
No budget for their range :grin:
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I am running Mintex 1155 on the starlet and they are awesome mixed with CRN discs
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Its alright, I went with the DS2500's in the end but thanks for the heads up. Thus far I have only bedded them in and done a single 15min track session at a rather too damp to test the brakes Mallory so I cant give a conclusive report but they certainly felt progressive towards lockup when bedding them in and were not too sharp in the damp. Going to try and make mallory again in a couple of weeks if I get the suspension changed over the weekend so may report more then.
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2500 and 1155 are relatively the same pads.. if using the right disc and fluid combination my friends struggle to cook them in their RS's and Skylines so should be great in a golf.. I can lock the wheels up very easy in my starlet so ive learnt to be progressive
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standard ones are the best aren't they? :grin:
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standard ones are the best aren't they?
Not a lot wrong with them, as discussed previously, especially in 280mm configuration and if you don't buy cheap sh*t and call it 'standard'.
As per Fangio - brakes are no good. They only slow you down.
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I've run DS3000's and Mintex 1177's on my track car and found them absolutely amazing.
I found DS2500's were good as a fast road pad, but wouldn't hold up to extreme track use and long sessions, a 10 minute session was enough to kill them typically.
Ds3000's eat discs though, and the life isn't great, so if it's a car that's used on the road a lot then 2500's are probably a safer bet.
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As per Fangio - brakes are no good. They only slow you down.
Fangio obviously didnt understand weight transfer and tyre temperature control then and the vehicles of the day hardly compare to those of today in terms of driving style requirement........ Being kind to the brakes may be swift in a safe fashion but it will not win you the race over a good hard braking driver (for good, read capable of not just locking everywhere!) in a competitive race series.
I found DS2500's were good as a fast road pad, but wouldn't hold up to extreme track use and long sessions, a 10 minute session was enough to kill them typically.
The DS2500's lasted a full double header race weekend at Silverstone and survived a following trackday at Oulton on a friends E30 325 with no ill effects or fade though admittedly had very little life left after that and had started cracking...... That is a very hard driven and successful circuit racer though. As things stand the car is only really going to be used at Curborough and possibly Three sisters this year so long sessions are not a worry. After that I will decide where to go with the car though looking at the competition in the class I have entered, its not looking too good for the old golf in its current form and the ABF I have in the garage for it may not be up to scratch either as that would put me into a class I just cant afford to compete in....... First event at the weekend :smiley:, should let me know where to go next :lipsrsealed:.
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I think he must have been joking if that is a real quote. Fangio wasn't stupid
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Threw some yellow stuffs in the Mx5 for a trackday a while back and was pretty impressed, they seem to have improved them since the last set I bought a few years ago which were a bit mediocre.
Nick
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I use Goodridge stainless hoses, Yellowstuff pads and EBC discs and they respond really well in all conditions, and compliment each other well, as you'd expect. The yellows are a harsh pad and definitely suit the weighty Gti, I could imagine them being somewhat overwhelming on a lighter vehicle.
As far as attributes for the pad is concerned. The response is immediate, no warming phase required, at all. Overall I would say mine took around 400 miles to fully bed in and I managed to get away without planting my foot once :laugh:
The dust from the pads is extensive, but my dark alloys negate that. But honestly it's heavy dust. With that in mind you might expect wear to be high. But having done 10k on my pads, I can assure you there is still the best part of 80% left, leading me to believe I will see 40k from one set of pads.
I've never experienced brake squeal in all those miles either. Nor have I had any trouble adapting to race brakes on normal roads, quite the opposite.
The only one complaint I would fire at the Yellows, is that when braking from high speed, 120mph+, the initial 'grab' of the pad against the disc is quite fierce and can result in a minor mechanical brake fade. The last thing you want to have to do in that situation, is let off the pedal and reapply to get better pressure. :sick:
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Well, first sprint done at Curborough and I can report that you dont use the brakes very much around there :grin:. however, on the few occasions that they got used they were always very confidence inspiring with zero warmup required and full of feel for lockup (very handy at Curborough where you brake before, at and during turn in) so personally Im very happy with them. To add to that, I have been using the golf a bit on the road and I cant find a single problem with the pads themselves other than to say that braking is as good as I have ever felt in a mk2 golf with bog standard brakes lol.
As for the golf, it was a bit of an eyeopener as although the car was faultless and handled fantastically once over the initial lurch (stronger damper settings required next time!), it just is not fast enough to be competitive in its class as it is down around 40+ HP to the competition. Even if it is around 100Kg lighter than most of the other cars in its class thats a lot of mumbo to make up for with brave pills!
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A copy / paste of my pad report I wrote on another forum, but thought I`d share :smiley:
I have been using a variety of pads over the last 6 years, but tend to use EBC Yellows as they perform well and are economical but I`ve always felt they feel a little `wooden`, they brake well enough, but especially in the wet, its hard to feel when they have locked up through the pedals. The Carbone Lorraine RC6 were the best I`d ever tried, but the price was an issue.
I was obviously very interested when I heard EBC were developing a new track pad and I offered to give some feedback on the new compound.
The initial pads were tested late last year and I found them to perform VERY well, the bite and feel were much better than the Yellowstuff, I could really modulate the pedal just to the point of locking. I hadn`t realised at the time, but my brakes were running pretty hot.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/UK%20TRACKDAYS/Donington%20Nov%202011/2936ccd2.jpg)
So hot the dust caps were melting.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMAG0034.jpg)
I noticed the disks were showing score marks on the surface, which appeared very quickly and only with the Orangestuff. (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/gifs/Think.gif)
The friction material didn`t last particularly long, I`d probably get just over a trackday on a set of pads. This was fed back to EBC, along with photos and they used it to tweak the compound over the winter.
First time with the latest compound was Rockingham and the disk scoring was much reduced. It was probably the same as the Yellowstuff and nothing to worry about. The latest compound felt just the same as the previous one, great pedal feel and retardation.
Unfortunately, the pads wore pretty quickly, quite quickly in fact. They were wearing at a rate of 26Miles/mm. That would give a life of approx 260 Track Miles before the friction material was worn out. In comparison, the Yellowstuff I fitted wear at 57Miles/mm, half the wear rate.
I knew my brakes were getting hot, so I doubled up on the Brake cooling by adding a second duct from the front bumper
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/2012-06-27164510.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/2012-06-27164618.jpg)
AND adding the wing vents.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/flow3.jpg)
EBC Sent me a set of disks and pads to trial, so these were fitted before Bedford.
We were running on the GT circuit which has a couple of hard braking zones. The car did 200 Miles on track. The new pads / disks were bedded in on the sighting laps until the pedal went soft and the front brakes were smoking... Went for a drive around the complex using NO brakes and then left them to cool for 30 minutes. The pad was then rock solid all day.
Following the trackday at Bedford at which the car did a little over 200 Miles, it was time for another check of the brakes.
After 200 Miles, the pads had 11mm of Friction Material remaining
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0757Copy.jpg)
New, they have 13mm
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0759Copy.jpg)
Thats a wear rate of 1mm/100 Miles (in my car at Bedford)
This is a vast improvement on the previous test and by increasing the brake cooling, I have reduced the wear rate from 1mm/25 Mile to 1mm/100 Miles. The Brakes were very hot before. I was melting plastic dust caps after a hard session, now they run much cooler.
Whilst the Orangestuff performed fantastic at the higher temps with ZERO fade, they do seem to have accelerated wear rates when running particularly hot. The Yellowstuff with the same configuration lasted twice as long, but when the Yellowstuff run cooler, they wear at a slightly slower rate. The Orangestuff difference is quite pronounced.
There was no disk scoring this time, the disks looked like new with no visible wear.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0754Copy.jpg)
The rear of the pad still had the paint.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0763Copy.jpg)
The paint on the friction material had only burned away near the face
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0764Copy.jpg)
The pad `smearing` which seemed to affect the early compound appears to have been eliminated, there is hardly any visible on this set.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0765Copy.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0766Copy.jpg)
The outer pad, with less direct cooling has obviously run hotter, the paint discolouration & bubbling seems to show this well.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0767Copy.jpg)
I ran Orangestuff on the rear for the first time and to be honest, I the rear is now overbraked. I run an AP Bias valve and has to have it set to full rear braking reduction but when running low fuel, the rears have a tendency to lock. With the Yellowstuff this isn`t as much of an issue, I still have to reduce rear bias as the fuel load decreases, but even on fumes, they don`t lock like the Orangestuff did. A RWD car with better weight distribution won`t have this issue, but on a stripped FWD car, its something to consider. Pedal feel when running Orange front / Yellow rear was identical to Orange all round.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0768Copy.jpg)
The rears have a slight heat discolouration where the disk meets the hub and is slightly blue, but nothing to cause concern.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0770Copy.jpg)
Overall, I`m VERY impressed with the new Orangestuff compound. They still have the improved modulation and overall retardation increase over the Yellowstuff, with increased cooling, the life appears to have been significantly extended. They are certainly my EBC pad of choice, the Yellowstuff feel much more wooden in comparison.
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Good info Nige. Im back out at Curborough today and tomorrow so may come back with more feedback on the DS2500's. If Im honest, I think the pads are a bit OTT in terms of their outright braking performance for such a short course although the feedback they give regarding impending lockup is very reasuring.
The main problem now is that the Golf is being replaced by a Phase 1 Clio 172 which was snapped up at a bargain price and should give me a much better idea of wether its the car or the driver which is holding the times down..... The Golf may yet make a re-appearance at a later stage but it will not have much left of the original car left if it does and will not be happening in the near future either.
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Fantastic research Nige. :laugh:
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Thought it info worth sharing. :smiley:
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Great stuff Nige, seriously. I'm interested in the picture with the wool taped to the car to see the airflow. Did you by any chance notice more front end grip/less front lift after that cutout on the side?
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Great stuff Nige, seriously. I'm interested in the picture with the wool taped to the car to see the airflow. Did you by any chance notice more front end grip/less front lift after that cutout on the side?
No difference in grip, but that wasn`t the point. The `vent` is there to allow the hot air from the wheel well to escape easier.
I DID notice reduced brake temps after doing the mod.
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I know, but the reason I ask is because at speed the wheel causes higher air pressure in the wheel arch and causes the car to lift. Its partly why a lot of high performance cars have vented wheel arches, not only for cooling but for aerodynamics.
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I know, but the reason I ask is because at speed the wheel causes higher air pressure in the wheel arch and causes the car to lift. Its partly why a lot of high performance cars have vented wheel arches, not only for cooling but for aerodynamics.
Yeah, agreed, the wheel acts as an air pump.
My aero isolates the wheel well as much as possible from the underneath, so there wasn`t as much air entering the well as usual, this meant I wouldn`t have had the same pressure as a stock car, which in turn meant I had the heat issues, ie melting dust caps.
Because of this, the venting of the arches wouldn`t be as noticeable on my car.
In answer to your question, No, I didn`t. :wink: I already have a lot of aero grip but I didn`t notice a difference after adding the vents.
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Cheers. Have you got any pics of the underneath of your car? Have you got a full floor leading to the diffuser?
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Cheers. Have you got any pics of the underneath of your car? Have you got a full floor leading to the diffuser?
Yep, although we are veering off topic here :grin:.
This is the view from the diffuser (you can see the vertical fins at the top of the photo) looking towards the front of the car
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/IMG_0104.jpg)
Outside
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/CAD_9117.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/Golf/CAD_7461.jpg)
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Looks so good. It's great inspiration.
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Stupid car :evil: goes round corners FAR too quickly for a mk2 Golf!
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Well, a bit late, but time for a wee update on the DS2500's following my second sprint and club afternoon at Curborough from a couple of weekends ago.
First thing to mention is that the brakes are as good as anything I have ever used, giving excellent feel and modulation in both wet and dry conditions as well as excellent initial bite (not too strong, but lets you know how to modulate from the initial pedal application). The brakes are more than capable of exceeding the capabilities of the (now thoroughly scrubbed in) Toyo Proxes T1-R's, although I would expect that from the basic brakes anyway. Sadly I cannot really comment on dust and fade as I simply have not put enough miles on the pads or hammered them on track, but considering the heavy breaking in proceedure and their use thus far, there is minimal wear and zero signs of cracking and glazing. The OEM spec 239mm discs are already showing signs of wear though..... The one thing I will qualify all of the above with is that I really have not had the opportunity to hammer the pads on a track (Curborough is only 75 seconds for me on a two lapper) but, having let a (cone bashing) friend who has never driven the car before, loose in the car for a few laps, he also felt that the brakes were rather good considering the age of the car. Shame his puny arms couldn't deal with no power steering......
I would recommend the pads themselves to anyone needing a fast road/occasional track pad and I shall be fitting them to next years car......
For anyone who is interested, the following is my fastest run at Curborough on the 12th: http://youtu.be/ADcPnJy5Vh4 (http://youtu.be/ADcPnJy5Vh4)
To put the time into perspective, this and my fastest timed run in the dry would have put me 0.2 secs behind an ABF equiped Ibiza cupra 16V that was running on my first event and there is time that I could still find if I wasn't swapping to the Clio for next year. Sadly I fear I will not be matching Nige's times any time soon in either of the track cars..
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Has anyone used Pagid Blue RS4-2's before. Road or track? :nerd:
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No, but I`ve heard very good things about them.