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General => General discussion => Topic started by: Splashalot on 04 November 2021, 06:10

Title: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 04 November 2021, 06:10
Following on from various discussions with Exonian in other threads I thought I'd consolidate my thoughts in their own thread, instead of derailing others'.

I've long been pondering EVs and trying to judge whether to jump in now or wait for the rumoured (mostly battery) advancements which never seem to arrive.  And recent events with chip shortages and resultant used car stock shortages means I've been offered silly money for my 2018 7.5 manual GTI as a trade in.  Which has somewhat bought the issue to a head.

Here in Aus. lack of Federal Govt. support has meant a paucity of EV choices.  If you rule out Tesla (I cannot put into words how much I detest the idea of everything operating though a tablet screen) and various truck-like SUV things, we're left with:
* Nissan Leaf (mid $50s OTR)
* Hyundai Ioniq ($52-$56k, depending on spec); or
* Mini Electric (low to high $60s, again depending on spec)

I've now test driven all three, and my brief thought are below:

Nissan Leaf:  Old school interior appeals in terms of buttons and dials.  However, they're not terribly well designed and presented, so not as user friendly as I'd hoped.  Small, difficult to locate, read and use.  Very high seating position - I noticed I was eyeball-to-eyeball with adjacent SUVs - so deceptively tall.  Very soft throttle response with large movements required lead to a slightly sluggish feeling.  Lack of steering wheel reach adjustment didn't bother me.  Regenerative braking was well implemented and easy to use, after a brief period of acclimatisation.   But the big knock on it was the ride, which bordered on old-school floaty.  Hugely absorptive and comfy, but left both my wife and I a tad nauseous with it's slightly unchecked body movements.  Which was a deal breaker.  Scrap the Leaf.

Hyundai Ioniq: Note this is the older hatch, not the new Ioniq 5 (which is way too large for my preferences).  By far the best balanced of the three in terms of ride comfort, driving enjoyment, utility and value.  290nm meant not quite the same push-you-back-in-the-seat shove as the Leaf or especially the Mini, but more than enough for me.  Despite the very chubby (I think 60-series?) tyres, the steering and handling was very good.  And the ride certainly streets ahead of the Leaf, IMO, with no float but a similarly immense level of impact absorption.  The overall drive experience was very pleasant - sort of ultra smooth, wafty, comfortable but still quite sporty and enjoyable to drive.  The interior is a bit generic Hyundai-dull, but the central screen is huge, the buttons similarly so, and usability streets ahead of VW's mk8 Golf offerings.  I could definitely happily live with one of these.

Mini Electric:  I loved it.  Oh man, I loved it.  Really fun to drive.  Direct steering with decent feel.  Immense and instant shove in the back, flat handling make it a hoot to drive.  I also loved the quirky and very individual interior.  A lovely place to sit.  Seats were the best of the three, too - supportive and comfy.  But the ride was a bit unrefined in general, and compared to the Leaf and Ioniq, terrible.  Probably similar to my GTI in the DCC's Sport mode.  I could probably happily live with it, though, for the immense fun in return.  But the price.....sigh.  For that money I'd want perfection.  And I'm not sure I can bring myself to shell out ~$30k change over on a second car.

So some thinking to do.  Whether to wait for the 2nd gen EVs to arrive, hoping the price of entry will be lower, and thereby offsetting the lower trade-in on my GTI once this chip and stock shortage is over?

The takeway, and major surprise for me, is that I actually prefer the EV driving experience to my manual GTI.  There is something wonderfully addictive about the smoothness and torquiness (is that a word?).  Stupidly high purchase prices aside here in Aus, I'd have one in a heartbeat.





Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 04 November 2021, 09:12
Thanks for kicking this off, I think its a useful chat.

Although I've already had my fill of VW software problems, have you not got the ID3 to add to the list?

The prices you quoted for those cars are roughly in line with UK ones. These are the "low end" of the milk float market, most run from about 45kGBP up to some eye watering figures. Also, there aren't a lot of "small" options - I'd guess it was something to do with the physical size of the battery, but it could also be that the likely target buyer wants a land train  :grin:

You didn't talk about range and charging speeds, I assume you don't care about either - probably I don't for the electric run around I intend to buy in 2022. A range of 100 miles and home charging is all I need for now.

The Mini, have you ever driven a modern Mini? I think what you describe about the ride is actually the same as a Mini delivers. I have 2 petrol ones here, one is a Cooper, its firm like my GTI DCC set to sport. The other is a Cooper S and its firm like the springs have been replaced with steel girders. Sticks to the road like glue but jeez...
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 04 November 2021, 10:14
No, I've not driven a modern Mini, Fred.  Last one was a 1972 original!  Driving the EV today the suspension felt very short travel and at time quite abrupt.  With the occasional fore-aft pitch where in the GTI there is none.  But yeah, it was fun, for sure.  Such a charming little thing.

Range is not an issue for me as this would be a second city-only car.  The weekly mileage would probably be around 200kms, maybe a tad more.  We have a garage so night charging is OK.  Also, rooftop solar generating much more than we can use ATM during the day, so it makes sense from that aspect to buy an EV. 

Interesting about the prices, thanks.  I assumed UK prices would be significantly less.

At the moment, heart says Mini, head says Ioniq.

Edit: VW Aus have no plans to introduce the ID3 soon.  From memory, 2025 at the earliest.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 November 2021, 06:24
Brilliant summaries in the first post Splashalot, that was really interesting reading.
I’m glad you liked the MINI!
Best fun I’ve had in a car since I got loaned a Lupo GTI many years ago.

It still surprises me that the ID.3 isn't headed your way any time soon but I don’t think you’re being short changed in any way as you’ll receive the Cupra Born soon enough.
The ID.3’s biggest annoyance to me was the spongy brakes which unfortunately will be carried over to the Born. Not a desirable feature in a sports hatch.

Like yourself, I love the electric car driving experience (albeit I miss a bit of exhaust noise and some ICE engine character as all EV’s are going to be similar in their power delivery).
I can’t wait to get into an EV but there’s just not one that ticks all my boxes just yet.
The MINI is damn close but not quite there as I want to run an EV as an only car so it does have a few limitations. The limited range is a big worry for me too as down in my neck of the woods the charging infrastructure really isn’t good enough just yet. It’s getting there though.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 05 November 2021, 08:30
Thanks Exonian!

Well, todays news:  Heart won out over head.  :wink:

Edit: Oh bugger it - I never was much good at teasing!

Both the wife and I went back today to drive the Mini on recommended tyre pressures this time - 36/32, vs over 40/40 the first time (when I found the ride a bit much)

What a difference.  It's certainly no plush experience, but the recommended pressures took the ride's sharp edge right off for us.  Much more settle and planted.  We agreed - yep, we can live with this.  goodyear Eagle runflats, too.

The kicker was the trade in deal on the GTI.  Because the Mini was stock, they gave us ~ $3800 off RRP, so if you add that to the GTI trade in, it's nearly $39k.  On a car which cost me $43k in 2018!  Too good to refuse really, given we both fell head over heels for the Mini's immense charm.  It is such a hoot to drive!

Spec wise, it's the top spec loaded model, so twin sunroofs, Harmon Kardon sound etc.  British Racing Green with black leather interior.  Really glows in the sunlight.

Hopefully picking it up mid next week.  So now to research home wall box chargers....

I think I might stick around here, if that's OK.  Such a great bunch here, and genuinely helpful to boot.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 05 November 2021, 10:56
I think from everything I've seen and read you've probably made the best decision vs what is available right now. You got a great deal too!

The tyre pressure thing.... yeah BMW.... tyre pressures. Crazy. You might find non-RF's also help - they have really stiff sidewalls and used to be the bane of Minis.

Don't forget to post a picture when you get it! There are loads of bits of trim you can get to make it look a bit more individual too - I saw some great front bumper elements on one in the car park the other weeks  - that was BRG too and the owner was telling me how he'd bought them and added it, along with wing mirror covers - really makes it pop.

I think next year I'll be getting one too.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 November 2021, 13:54
Fab news Splashalot, I’m very jealous!  :cool:
You’ve made a really good choice there I reckon. You wouldn’t believe how close I was to ordering one after my last test drive (my wife was dead against it, despite her loving the other Mini we have, for some unfathomable reason).

There’s a Scottish guy living in Canada who has done a few interesting “new owners” perspective vids on YouTube that’ll reinforce the feeling that you made a good decision
https://youtu.be/2E0UhYIjYBI
https://youtu.be/_R48sLcwyoE
https://youtu.be/635WKJZFiJk
https://youtu.be/rkOWZfVxUxY

I’d say the Mini SE was a heart AND head decision in reality. Other BEV contenders are more of a wallet or impulse type buy. Although expensive the Mini has an awful lot going for it as a complete product rather than a show stopping tech extravaganza that’s the size of a small house.

Please do stop around here Splashalot  :smiley:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 06 November 2021, 05:00
Thanks chaps - much appreciated.

I'll post a photo next week.  Will get the front end PPF'd, then probably fit the optional stripes as per this one in the dealership this morning.  I think they suit the BRG paint.


(https://i.postimg.cc/x14tcspn/Mini-Stripes.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21n4txfK)
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 06 November 2021, 05:57
A definite yes for the stripes.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 10 November 2021, 03:09
See you, old friend.  And thanks for all the fun times.  It's been great:


(https://i.postimg.cc/cJzKHnbD/GTI.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1gpR7fP6)

Well hello there.  Who's a happy boy (and girl), then?



(https://i.postimg.cc/P5rNQyG3/Mini.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7899jH3)

Bonnet stripes are on order.  Will be fitted after Xpel Pro paint protection film on the entire front end.  No stone chips for me.

The drive so far?  Absolutely blown away.  So. Much. Fun.  Ride is inexplicably much better than the test drives.  I assume they've adjusted the pressures down to recommended.  Steering turn in, sharpness and feel is brilliant.  Such a hoot to drive.

I have a Zappi charger on order arriving tomorrow.  Theoretically I should be able to run the Mini off free solar from our rooftop panels.  Will need some grid top up in Winter I expect, but overall it should cost a pittance to run.  So, so happy with it.

Special thanks to Exonian, without whose test drive opinions I probably wouldn't have pursued a Mini EV test drive.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 10 November 2021, 05:41
The post I’ve been waiting for, and there it is, the little beauty!
I’m so glad it has made such an impression on you. Such a fantastic little package.
The GTI paintwork beading nicely there too.
Keep us informed of your progress pretty please, and some more photos! I love the look with the LCI front end and the black trim.  :cool:
Congrats Splashalot
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 10 November 2021, 05:51
Cheers - thanks so much for the kind words.  :smiley:

I solved the much improved ride dilema (glad it wasn't just my imagination).  Tyre pressures on delivery 32/32, as opposed to 40/40 on the initial test!  No wonder it feels so much better.  Will keep them at 32 all around and monitor for abnormal tyre wear.  But handling and steering seems unaffected - still razor sharp responses.

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 10 November 2021, 06:20
Despite the bit of extra weight of the battery car 40 psi does seem incredibly high pressures for Mini. I guess they can claim extra range with the tyres pumped solid.

Have a quick watch of this if you’ve got a few minutes spare.

https://youtu.be/OZ1-Hz4yBU4

It punches above its weight.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 10 November 2021, 08:20
That's a lovely thing  :cool:

I always have a soft spot for a mini despite some of their foibles. Do think it's currently the best small ev though.

Do write more about it here!

The only downer is that I've not found a good mini forum. Nothing like the vibe here.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Watts on 10 November 2021, 08:35
Congratulations! Looks great! :smiley:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 10 November 2021, 13:47
@Splashalot; the Mini looks great - love the colour :cool:. If I was due to change my car now, I think an electric Mini would be a serious contender for me, so I’ll be very interested to hear what it’s like to live with and drive on a daily basis.

Enjoy your new car :smiley:.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 11 November 2021, 00:16
Thanks all for the lovely kind words.

The Mini is off having PPF fitted at the moment, but once we've put a few miles on and the initial euphoria has worn off I'll update with some driving and ownership experiences.

Cheers from chilly Tassie
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Snoopy on 11 November 2021, 14:28
I look forward to reading the living with ownership review as its the only EV that currently interests me.  :smiley:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 12 November 2021, 01:47
Whilst I'm accumulating experience and thoughts on the Mini, this bloke in the US has some (IMO excellent and accurate) ownership reviews:  https://www.youtube.com/c/TechForumTesla/videos

He also has a Tesla model 3, hence his channel's title. 

Interesting that he has personally timed his Mini 0-60mph at 6.3 seconds, rather than Mini's 7-ish second rating.

Also of interest:  The Mini EV's weight distribution is a perfect 50/50 and it's centre of gravity is 1.5" lower than the Cooper S petrol.  I expect any advantages conferred are largely offset by the Electric's heavier weight, though.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 12 November 2021, 15:33
Also of interest:  The Mini EV's weight distribution is a perfect 50/50 and it's centre of gravity is 1.5" lower than the Cooper S petrol.  I expect any advantages conferred are largely offset by the Electric's heavier weight, though.

Without the engine block I should think thats much easier to achieve!

And the centre of gravity again, the big thing, the battery, is lower than the engine block would be too.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 21 November 2021, 05:18
I thought I'd chime in with some of our experiences of the Mini Cooper SE whilst the 7.5 GTI memories are still fresh in my mind.  Apologies in advance for the long and somewhat disjointed post. 

Executive Summary: 
Some disappointing safety and  convenience feature omissions compared to my 7.5 Golf GTI, and especially disappointing given the steep price.
Superb driving dynamics with at times brutal power, responsive handling and well-judged ride.
Heaps of character.  Easy to fall in love with.  Individuality.
Cheap as chips to run.  Even cheaper if you have rooftop solar.


Negatives:
* cannot sync the two temperature adjustment dials
* lack of rear cross traffic alert
* AEB is “city” only – as best I can ascertain auto braking operates only between 10-50kmh.  This is disappointing to learn post-sale and had I known this it may have impacted on our purchasing decision.
* Rear view camera is only half the 8” display, and is distorted into portrait mode – too small.
* L-hand mirror dipping is a fixed position, which cannot be adjusted
* Given the pricing of this car, the fairly ordinary level of active safety equipment is disappointing.
* Only 3 years of warranty.

Positives:
* Has the puppy-dog playfulness of the Mk5 GTI, but dialled up to 11
* Weighty and feelsome controls – feels solid and hewn from one billet of solid steel – clunky door closing aside.
* Steering is brilliant – superbly accurate and with actual feel – very reminiscent of the mk5 GTI
* Turn-in is instant and flat
* Haven't got near finding the handling limits yet.
* Comes std with decent tyres - Goodyear Eagle F1 runflats.  As an aside, I'm loving them so far – no negatives to speak of.
* 50/50 front/rear weight balance and 1.5” lower centre of gravity than the petrol Cooper S gives a superbly planted, balanced feel, even at low speeds
* Ride is surprisingly good.  Firm, but pliant at 32psi.  No jiggliness or crashiness.  Occasional pitch from the rear over humps or sharp undulations, but otherwise surprisingly settled for a small car with such a sporty drive

Comments:
At this early stage I'm finding the Mini more difficult than a combustion engine car to maintain constant speed on undulating roads.  A tad more throttle and you're a few kmh over where you want to be.  A slight easing and you're a few kmh under. 

The overall feel of the Cooper SE is of playful, responsive and fun to drive car. Surprisingly, it is loaded with character and charm, which is definitely not what I was expecting from an electric vehicle.  Lack of engine note aside, all sporty and fun attributes are amplified over the 7.5 GTI.

The rolling response at times borders on brutal.  The performance completely belies the ~138kw/268nm (from memory) figures.  It feels way, way gruntier than those figures would suggest.  Kerb weight is 1440kg, so pretty similar to my 7.5 GTI, yet the Mini feels considerably more grunty and responsive, despite the lower power and torque figures.

Regenerative braking is two setting: the  lower having 1.1g and the higher 1.9g.  In effect, the difference feels more marked.  The lower setting feels like strong engine braking from an ICE car.  The upper setting is strong enough to pitch you forward in your seat if you lift off completely. 

The throttle is quite heavy and long travel, I guess to aid smooth power and regen delivery. I've found that you really need to have weight into the throttle at all times, other than when in full regen braking.  It's just a matter of how hard you're pressing the throttle which modulates acceleration or braking.  This takes a few days to master and commit to muscle memory.  It also results in some “whoa!” moments next time you drive a combustion engine car and lift off the throttle expecting strong braking and nothing happens!  Takes a few corners to recalibrate your judgement.

If test driving one of these and new to EVs, I'd recommend starting in the “Green” mode, which makes both power delivery and regen braking tip-in more gradual and easy to modulate.

Charging and running costs:
This will of course depend on whether you have access to off-street parking for charging, your electricity tariff costs and also whether or not you have rooftop solar.  But in the couple of weeks we've owned the Mini it has never been below 50% charged.  After each trip (usually one a day) I plug it in and leave it to trickle charge utilising part grid, mostly solar electricity.  Full charge from empty to full using the Zappi smart 7kw wall box is ~4hrs.  Trickle charge around 12hrs. 

I estimate that the I can recharge the Mini for between $10 and $15au on mostly off-peak grid power, with minimal solar input.  The equivalent tank of 98ron premium petrol for the Golf GTI would cost between $80 and $100au, depending on petrol prices.  We're currently making some changes to our solar array which I'm hoping will enable 100% solar charging of the Mini for at least 6 months of the year. The Winter months we'll charge overnight on cheap off-peak rates.

Summary:
* Way more fun to drive than I was expecting.  I genuinely feel I've lost nothing (apart from engine note) in driving enjoyment over the GTI, but have picked up meagre running costs and charm.  Safety omissions aside, I'd buy it again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 21 November 2021, 09:37
Interesting read!

The modern mini is still a bit of a tech dinosaur compared to even a mk7.5 golf. Vw were very much ahead of the game with the tech on the mk7 series.

I'm still waiting to test drive the mini, probably not until mid next year as have some other projects to sort before that.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 21 November 2021, 23:03
An excellent review as ever Splashalot

I think I reached my peak maturity at 8 years old and haven’t developed further from that so it’s Sport mode or nothing for me! Just the sheer thrust on instant demand would keep the child in me fully entertained all of the time, especially knowing I wasn’t burning expensive fossil fuels (directly) every time I hit the ‘go’ pedal.

A very good point you made about maintaining a steady speed. A good friend of mine did remark that he found electric cars wearing on longer journeys due to the need to apply constant pressure on the pedal. Skilled use of cruise control would help but I’m not a fan of cruise control. Which brings me on to the seemingly slightly outdated safety tech on the MINI E. I actually find that ok, I still regularly drive vehicles with no radar or camera controlled safety features as well as a Golf daily driver that is loaded with nanny tech. I do like being in full control but am probably in the minority these days. I think, for me at least, the MINI has a decent blend of modern tech yet still has plenty of old skool too. Proper buttons and switches for example that are married to an ultra modern power train. It all adds to the fun factor for me.

I’m really pleased you are indeed finding it so much fun. There are many ways a car can be satisfying to own but it’s driving fun that really endears a car into the heart of an owner.

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 23 November 2021, 14:00
Boy did I wish I had a MINI EV this morning at 5am when I was greeted with a layer of ice on the windscreen and and a whole bunch of non working techy things that had taken umbrage at the cold.
A lovely preconditioned cabin and clear glass should have been heavenly.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 23 November 2021, 17:24
Great review @Splashalot.

I’ve spent some time researching the Mini EV and I really do like it. I could live with the shortcomings that you’ve highlighted and if I did take the plunge and get one (I have thought about it quite a lot over the last few weeks, but I must resist! :grin:) I’ll have gone full circle as my first car was a Mini - albeit an unreliable, 1970 British Leyland version. Range anxiety, poor public charging facilities, and finding a working charge point are my major concerns, but hopefully that will improve over the next few years, and I dare say there’ll be advances in battery technology too.

Give it a couple of years, and I may have one sitting in my garage :smiley:.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 23 November 2021, 23:33
Boy did I wish I had a MINI EV this morning at 5am when I was greeted with a layer of ice on the windscreen and and a whole bunch of non working techy things that had taken umbrage at the cold.
A lovely preconditioned cabin and clear glass should have been heavenly.

I'm rather taken with the Mini App, which allows pre-heating and cooling, finding the vehicle if lost in a carpark, tracking and a few other party tricks.

Actually, that raises a related point - it's rather nice to be able to get into the car stone cold and just drive off how I fancy, without the need for mechanical sympathy whilst the oily bits get up to temp.  That is, with my pants on fire if the mood takes me.  In all seriousness, we live on a fairly busy road, so often have to pull out into 60kmh traffic and get up to speed quickly - and uphill, too. 

One other fact worth mentioning regarding the Mini: the seats.  They're firm.  Very firm.  Shapely and supportive (and for me, comfy), but firm.  Thought I'd mention this after Fred's BMW seat experiences - might be an important consideration for some.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Snoopy on 24 November 2021, 07:57
Thanks for the updates they are very useful.
I do keep thinking about a MINI Cooper SE.
Like the previous poster my first car I ever bought was a mini (I still have it) and the car I passed my test in was a mini cooper. I was actually a mini fan before I was a GTI
one so a mini does really appeal.
The lack of tech I actually prefer. First thing I do in modern cars when I get in is turn most of it off. So thats not an issue for me. The reduction of practicality is probably the only real stumbling block and maybe the thought the new MINI is due at some point. Im also told I just don't like spending money  :grin:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 24 November 2021, 10:20
One other fact worth mentioning regarding the Mini: the seats.  They're firm.  Very firm.  Shapely and supportive (and for me, comfy), but firm.  Thought I'd mention this after Fred's BMW seat experiences - might be an important consideration for some.

Yes, Mini's are like that - its my pet hate. I wasn't surprised when the Mini-FatBoi (aka the F40 1 series) suffered from the same problems unless you spec'ed M-sport seats.

Its the one thing I really hate about F series Mini/BMW and why realistically I'd not be able to use one for my main car - a run around would be ok, so a Mini Electric wouldn't be drama.

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 10 February 2022, 05:36
How is the MINI going Splashalot?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 11 February 2022, 00:34
Hi Exonian.

Thanks for asking - I was only thinking yesterday I should add an update on my experiences for anyone here considering an EV in general, or the Mini specifically.

The short answer is: loving it!  As in, really, really loving it.  As we all know, after a few months of new car ownership a niggle or two usually raises its head, but in this case, nothing.  No issues.  Nothing unforseen has surprised or annoyed me.

The driving experience is fantastic - really enjoyable.  Whilst I've become accustomed to the general EV driving experience, I still get a kick out of the silent but solid shove in the back and the smooth, effortless acceleration.  And much to my surprise, I don't miss the noise one bit.  And the lack of vibration is lovely.  I'm still finding the Mini more enjoyable to drive than my MK7.5 GTI (No offence to 7.5 owners here).  As I've said in a previous post, it really does remind me of the MK5 GTI, only with the response and enjoyment amplified a bit.  It has that same solid, connected and responsive feel to drive.

I tend to use Green mode a bit more now, especially with a passenger on board, as it allows smoother on-off throttle modulation.  This largely cures the above mentioned issue maintaining constant speed.

I must admit I'm quite a convert to EVs, despite being a lifelong petrol head.  To the extent where I'm thinking about replacing our family car (2021 Mazda 3 Astina) with a longer range EV in a few years.  I do love the BMW i4, although that is out of our price range.  I note that Lexus will have an EV IS replacement, which IMO looks utterly sensational.  If the drive is good, and the pricing within reach, That may well be on our horizon. https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-lexus-is-successor-rumoured-for-2025-australian-arm-keen/  Other possibilites are the Polestar 2 and the Kia EV6.

But back to the Mini.  The short range has been a complete non-event for us.  I tend to use the car once or twice a day and when finished, plug it in to charge.  Which over Summer has been 90+% solar, so mostly free.  In Winter when our panels are less productive I plan to charge the car overnight, making use of the off-peak tariff.  But so far, the Mini has only twice been down to 50% charge, but mostly gets down to ~80% at worst (ie. one day's use) before topping back up to 100%.  That usually takes between 1 to 3 hours using our 7KW Zappi home wall box.  Although solar charges at around 3kw. 

Having said that, the Mini's use is entirely as a city runabout.  I would still have anxiety issues on longer trips, hence the petrol Mazda for such uses.  Until a 400km+ range EV which I fancy and can afford appears. 

The price of petrol here has skyrocketed these last few months and it is such a lovely (and smug!) feeling each time I drive past the petrol station billboards showing 98RON at $2.08/litre (was generally somewhere around $1.50 when I had the GTI).

So in summary, if you do less than 100kms a day, have access to overnight off-street charging and still want something that is a blast to drive whilst saving you money, I would highly recommend the Mini Cooper SE.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 11 February 2022, 11:50
Thats a great writeup.

Thanks!

I'm still planning on a Mini-E sometime in the next year or so and you confirm its what I thought it might be.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 12 February 2022, 11:35
I’m really pleased to see you’ve further bonded with the MINI so well Splashalot.
You’ve written kind of what I expected as I’ve been following a bustling little MINI EV group since the cars were launched and there is almost nothing but glowing positivity about the cars. In fact the group is very much like here, friendly and open minded as opposed to some of the serious and argumentative sites I’ve seen for other cars.
If I hadn’t been totally sold on the MINI EV from the off I certainly would be after reading your thoughts on it.

I’d never taken the slightest bit of notice of anything wearing a Lexus badge previously, as to me they are either massive luxury barges or lumpen SUV’s which go against anything I’d want in a car, but that IS replacement really does look as sensational as you said. That is the sort of thing I’d have expected an EV to look like when presented with an opportunity to design something ground up that has no ICE rather than some of the bland European designs.

 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 13 February 2022, 02:49
Do you have a link to that Mini EV group, Exonian?

I've found one (albeit very) minor niggle: The rear view mirror is positioned low on the windscreen and interferes with forward vision on left-hand bends and corners.  That's it, nothing else!

On the issue of range, I've not calculated total range available, as it's so far been a non-issue for me.  But I thought it might be useful to quantify for others.  So I jumped on gmap pedometer and measured my usual daily trip: 23kms.  This has consistently used 10% of the Mini's battery, irrespective of starting point (ie. 100% charged or less).  So extrapolating that, I'd expect total range in my usual circumstances to be ~230kms.  Which is spot-on the WLTP estimate of 232kms.  Bear in mind that is in Summer useage with little heater or aircon use.

I think most online testers complaining of the range go by the Mini's guess-o-meter in the main instrument display, which is notoriously inaccurate and even more pessimistic than me.  Mine usually shows 160-170kms available at 100% charge. 
 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 13 February 2022, 08:39
Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MiniElectricUK/?ref=share
hopefully that works.

Unfortunately due to the shape of the MINI the mirror is quite low.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 13 February 2022, 23:43
Thanks for the link, Exonian.  Unfortunately they knocked-back my application to join the group saying it's UK only!   :cry: :grin:

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 15 February 2022, 05:41
Did I mention they were friendly?
Maybe not after all!   :embarrassed:
Their loss.

This vid is quite interesting https://youtu.be/bKIzfJar41I not just because it’s (hopefully) an almost affordable electric Porsche, but the way the battery will be mounted. It demonstrates why the MINI SE handles so well despite the battery. Unlike most BEV’s where the battery is mounted in a rectangular block under the floor it’s similar to the MINI in the fact much of it is behind the driver between the rear wheels keeping the roof low and the battery mass towards the centre of the car thus improving handling. 

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 16 February 2022, 15:10
@Splashalot; I enjoy reading your thoughts on the Mini-E and I’m seriously considering one for my next car. As I’m not due to change my present car for another 2.5 - 3 years, it might be the next generation Mini that I’ll be looking at.

Since the start of the pandemic, my annual mileage has dropped to around 5k and typically my longest journey is a 60-70 mile round trip, so I don’t see the Mini’s relatively low range as a significant issue. With advances in battery technology, I’d anticipate the next generation car to have a longer range - I just hope that Mini don’t mess with the car’s design too much; the retro design is one of the Mini’s charms for me - I grew up in the era of the original Mini :smiley:.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 26 April 2022, 19:34
Good fun little vid and topical for the forum:

https://youtu.be/nV3CeD3324U
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 27 April 2022, 02:52
That perfectly illustrates my thoughts - I still cannot align the Mini's 135kw/270nm and 1465kgs with the performance on offer.  My GTI had 169kw/380nm and from memory was slightly lighter.  Yet the Mini feels more pokey (and fun) around town.  Logically, it must be the instant and seamless torque from zero RPM.

I must admit I do like the idea of a Kia EV6 to eventually replace our Mazda 3 Astina for family and longer distance duties. (Edit: Or an ID3 if: a. VW ever get the software/UI sorted; and b. VW Aus ever get around to releasing it.)  Once you've had a taste of the performance and low (in our case, near zero) running costs it is addictive. 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 27 April 2022, 19:53
Apologies, another video:
https://youtu.be/zFTVuNZl1gk

The reviewer nails it for me as to how most EV’s fail as hot hatches.
Too high up, too much focus on range, less development spent on handling, brakes and FUN.
SUV EV’s are obviously the biggest demand and easiest to design. Wheels, battery, pop a jelly mould body on top.
Obviously the only fun we have the right to demand are funky graphic displays and blistering races between traffic lights on straight roads.

This is why the little MINI still stands almost alone thanks to its ICE underpinnings.  :smiley:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 29 April 2022, 03:25
Whilst we're doing videos, here's the new Megane EV:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yvN4EtIRvQ

This looks very promising indeed, if you're after a small-ish, practical, good driving hatch that isn't an SUV brick.

He mentions a couple of good points: 
A.) It has a heat pump for Winter efficiency (massively less power consumption than element heaters in some EVs);
B.) It has liquid cooling for battery management - a major determinant of how quickly the battery degrades.  That is, air-cooled batteries (Leaf etc) degrade much quicker.
C.) It is efficiency. This varies wildly amongst EVs.  The Mini, for example is amongst the most efficient, but some, like the Audi E-tron are horrendously inefficient. 

This seems a much better resolved offering than the ID3.  Massively better user interface with Google software and real buttons.  Visibility is much better in the ID 3, though.  I prefer the ID3's styling and visibility, but that's about it.

Looks like a very good EV option.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 29 April 2022, 08:11
That new Renault Megane looks a really nice car and I personally much prefer the styling of it to the ID.3. Agree, it seems a far better resolved offering than the ID.3, and the interior looks very premium (something that couldn’t be said about the ID.3’s interior), just let down by the rear seat accommodation.

If I was currently in the market for an EV in the ID.3 sized car segment, it’d be a serious contender for me, although I don’t need a car that ‘large’ these days. Looks promising for an EV version of the Renault Clio though, which I would be interested in in a few years time if it’s as accomplished as the Megane EV.

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 29 April 2022, 12:22
Funnily enough I’ve been keeping a close eye on the Megane E-Tech as I love the chunky Hot Wheels looks, the tech for all the reasons you’ve mentioned Splashalot and the fact it’s not an SUV. Lower and more compact is what I want rather than the excessive bulk of most EV’s which just have to be less efficient and a waste of resources (and cash) if they’re only going to be carrying one or two people most of the time.

A RenaultSport edition would be lovely please Messrs Renault.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 04 June 2022, 08:38
Good fun little vid and topical for the forum:

https://youtu.be/nV3CeD3324U

Very impressive against the 300bhp Golf R all the way up to 70-ish and even at the end, there was a car's length between them. Does it have any of the Megane's features like a liquid cooled battery?

Renault Megane E-Tech EV60 220hp is getting there at "just" 1700Kg but I would prefer a Polo GTI EV at 1500Kg
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 04 June 2022, 08:40
That perfectly illustrates my thoughts - I still cannot align the Mini's 135kw/270nm and 1465kgs with the performance on offer.  My GTI had 169kw/380nm

Was the GTI a 230PS Mk7?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 04 June 2022, 23:21
A Polo sized sporty EV (ID.1 or 2) is what the European market lacks and I think would be popular too. There are literally dozens of choices of SUV but not too much that’s slightly smaller.

The Mini doesn’t have the trick battery of the E-Tech as it’s based on BMW i3 mechanicals which are nearly ten years old. No bad thing either as its a well proven and reliable unit in a very solid package.
The Renault system is ultra modern but not yet proven, and we know all about French cars and electrics! It’s a great bit of design though and a handsome car.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 05 June 2022, 05:08

.....The Renault system is ultra modern but not yet proven, and we know all about French cars and electrics!

Must admit, that was my first thought!  I think I may take some convincing that they've fixed that.  :wink:

David25.  My GTI was a 2018 7.5 - 169kw/380nm.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 09:00

.....The Renault system is ultra modern but not yet proven, and we know all about French cars and electrics!

Must admit, that was my first thought!  I think I may take some convincing that they've fixed that.  :wink:

David25.  My GTI was a 2018 7.5 - 169kw/380nm.

Sorry, I've now read your earlier posts and can see you were comparing against your 7.5

Would you say your Mini is really as quick as Exonian's video https://youtu.be/nV3CeD3324U shows?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 09:09
A Polo sized sporty EV (ID.1 or 2) is what the European market lacks and I think would be popular too. There are literally dozens of choices of SUV but not too much that’s slightly smaller.

The Mini doesn’t have the trick battery of the E-Tech as it’s based on BMW i3 mechanicals which are nearly ten years old. No bad thing either as its a well proven and reliable unit in a very solid package.
The Renault system is ultra modern but not yet proven, and we know all about French cars and electrics! It’s a great bit of design though and a handsome car.

Agreed, little choice in the Polo sized segment, below that you have the Fiat and Honda, above that Leaf, then "hundreds" of boxy/soapy SUVs.

Can anyone help on the mathematics of changing?

I using about 50 litres of petrol per month (big drop after the pandemic and hybrid working) at current prices that about £85 or £1020 per year, then I would save £250 car tax. Beyond that reduced servicing costs.

If I assume electricity is free, total annual saving of around £1500 or £7500 over five years

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 June 2022, 10:03
If you can get free electric then it’s a big plus.

In the UK right now I’d say it has become a (comparatively) bad time to buy an EV.
The cars cost a fair bit more than ICE with long lead times (there are some Cupra Borns still in stock with dealers from the first batch imported though). Discounts have all but gone out of the window.
Uptake has been huge recently as the great unwashed have been brainwashed and infrastructure in much of the UK lags way behind. You need a LOT of public chargers to keep up with current demand taking into account how long it takes to charge a car.

A couple years ago you’d get a £2k grant for an EV under £35k(?) but that’s been withered away plus the cars have increased in price (PCP costs have increased even if list prices have stayed fairly constant in some quarters) almost across the board. You’d have got £650 off a home charger which I think might have gone now too, so you’d need to budget another £1k for a charger.

On a subsidised lease through an employer maybe an EV makes good sense if you can charge at work for free but there’s still a very limited choice of available cars.

Retained values of EV’s will have improved massively though so that’s one thing in their favour in the longer term of ownership costs if you buy rather than lease.

I’ve never actually sat and crunched any numbers, I tend to buy for the driving experience and would do the same with an EV rather than looking solely at running costs. We’d have all bought Bluemotion Diesels a few years ago if low running costs were priority (and those models cost more than their regular badged stablemates too back in their day).
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 11:20
If you can get free electric then it’s a big plus.

Well, I was just trying to make the maths easier. My situation, an old MK6 maybe worth £8000 against a UK Mini Electric two £30,000 new or £26,000 ex-demo. Cost to change a minimum of £18,000, I typically keep my cars for the long term, so how much could I save over five years?

If I continue to only use one tank per month, for easy maths £100 thats £1200 a year or £6000 over five years.

The grant has been reduced to £1500 https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/overview and the home charger to £350
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 June 2022, 11:37
A Level 2 is circa £31k now and ex-demos seem to be at nearly that price, with even second hand Level 3’s going for £35k still. If time isn’t an issue then there looks to be little saved between used and new. Factor in PCP with higher APR on used then new often makes better financial sense.

Bear in mind the electric car will have minimal transmission loss the actual power at the wheels between a 230PS GTI and a Mini EV will likely be less far apart than the crank figures suggest. On the road performance will be similar.

If I didn’t need a bit more range and decent rear seat accommodation I’d buy a Mini Electric in a heartbeat. In fact I very nearly did several times anyway. They’re great fun and built like tanks.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 11:55
Yes, I was stretching the meaning of ex-demo, this is cheapest https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205125629923 at £25,000 versus £31,000 for a new electric 2 (minus the £1500 grant makes £29,500)

However I finance the remaining ~18,000 its still "a lot" without recovering significant running cost savings.

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 11:56
Ignore
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 June 2022, 12:13
I must admit I discounted the £1500 grant as it could be pulled before the car is delivered so can’t be relied upon.

There are a few facelift Polo GTI’s in various specs on their way to the UK which can be had for around £27k to £29k just to muddy the waters!  :grin:
These would do an easy 40 mpg in daily use I reckon and have very similar performance to the Mini EV. I’d buy one in preference to a standard mk8 Golf GTI right now.

For an £18k balance to fund between cars I think a lowish rate personal loan would possibly be better.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 13:08
I must admit I discounted the £1500 grant as it could be pulled before the car is delivered so can’t be relied upon.

There are a few facelift Polo GTI’s in various specs on their way to the UK which can be had for around £27k to £29k just to muddy the waters!  :grin:
These would do an easy 40 mpg in daily use I reckon and have very similar performance to the Mini EV. I’d buy one in preference to a standard mk8 Golf GTI right now.

For an £18k balance to fund between cars I think a lowish rate personal loan would possibly be better.

Yes! What will be the outlook in five years time I wonder? Which one of them will hold more value?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 05 June 2022, 13:39
The Mini’s tech will be outdated (but it’ll still have a cult following) and the Polo will probably also be out of production (with a smaller cult following) so it’s hard to guess. We’ll all be using Roubles by then so….  :whistle:

With domestic energy prices rising astronomically and commercial fast chargers getting as expensive to use as fossil fuel it’s impossible to guesstimate how much it’ll be to run an EV in a few years time, which will affect used values one way or the other.
Petrol prices seem to be going only one way too.
It’ll get to the stage where it’s a 50/50 split on whether people can actually use an EV to daily because of charging limitations, so therefore once uptake hits a certain point demand will level out until infrastructure catches up. That in turn will limit the amount of ICE cars being registered to a point where they too will become a steady amount much lower than now, meaning demand for used versions of either should reflect whatever the market sits at during that point in time. Longer term EV’s are expected to take over so maybe fossil fuel will become harder to get hold of thus restricting its desirability further. Those are my thoughts. I’m usually wrong!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 14:12
Agreed!

BP Pulse costs for "guests" are just like petrol!

I'm more concerned with range versus charging in my area (Tesco, swimming pool, BP Pulse and a new charging car park) means I could access medium or fast chargers) range is a challenge on odd long trips.

In terms of my £18,000 bet, well I am deciding between running an ICE car at around £1500 a year or getting a battery model (cost to change £18,000 or £300 per month over five years)


The Mini's battery has an eight year / 100k mile warranty
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 05 June 2022, 16:08
Agreed!

BP Pulse costs for "guests" are just like petrol!

I'm more concerned with range versus charging in my area (Tesco, swimming pool, BP Pulse and a new charging car park) means I could access medium or fast chargers) range is a challenge on odd long trips.

In terms of my £18,000 bet, well I am deciding between running an ICE car at around £1500 a year or getting a battery model (cost to change £18,000 or £300 per month over five years)


The Mini's battery has an eight year / 100k mile warranty

If you have concerns over EV range, then don’t overlook the following;
Another small EV that hasn’t been mentioned that isn’t an SUV but might be worth considering is the Peugeot 208e / Vauxhall Corsa e - essentially the same car under the skin. Both of these generally get pretty favourable reviews and have a good range for a small EV - official figures quote around 220 miles, so probably 170 - 180 miles in real world driving conditions. Residuals probably aren’t as good as for a Mini Electric, but if range is important, then maybe worth a look. They also offer better practicality than the Mini (bigger boot, more rear passenger space, rear doors). The Peugeot 208e / Vauxhall Corsa e battery also has an 8 year warranty, which I think is pretty much the norm with many EV’s currently.

Apologies for mentioning ‘Vauxhall’ on a VW forum; I know it’s been frowned upon in the past :grin:.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 05 June 2022, 18:28
Agreed!

BP Pulse costs for "guests" are just like petrol!

I'm more concerned with range versus charging in my area (Tesco, swimming pool, BP Pulse and a new charging car park) means I could access medium or fast chargers) range is a challenge on odd long trips.

In terms of my £18,000 bet, well I am deciding between running an ICE car at around £1500 a year or getting a battery model (cost to change £18,000 or £300 per month over five years)


The Mini's battery has an eight year / 100k mile warranty

If you have concerns over EV range, then don’t overlook the following;
  • range reduces during colder months; more so if the car’s battery isn’t preconditioned to warm it optimum operating temperature. I’ve seen figures of 15% - 25% range reduction quoted for EV’s driven on a cold battery during the winter compared to summer use.
  • battery degradation as it ages; an EV can lose around 2% of its range per year. Not significant, but maybe a consideration if planning on keeping an EV longer term that has a relatively small range to start with when new.
  • Fast charging; the EV auto industry accepts the view that faster charging will increase the rate at which an electric vehicle's battery capacity will decline, so regular use of commercial fast chargers is unlikely to be good for a battery’s longer term efficiency.
Another small EV that hasn’t been mentioned that isn’t an SUV but might be worth considering is the Peugeot 208e / Vauxhall Corsa e - essentially the same car under the skin. Both of these generally get pretty favourable reviews and have a good range for a small EV - official figures quote around 220 miles, so probably 170 - 180 miles in real world driving conditions. Residuals probably aren’t as good as for a Mini Electric, but if range is important, then maybe worth a look. They also offer better practicality than the Mini (bigger boot, more rear passenger space, rear doors). The Peugeot 208e / Vauxhall Corsa e battery also has an 8 year warranty, which I think is pretty much the norm with many EV’s currently.

Apologies for mentioning ‘Vauxhall’ on a VW forum; I know it’s been frowned upon in the past :grin:.

I agree on all your points,regular 150Kw charging is really only for people leasing. Its just the same as using 65w charging on your mobile phone.

The Corsa is technically better compared to the Mini, 50kw/h battery, better efficiency, bigger. But I've discounted because of the negatives mentioned here

(https://i.ibb.co/VxJ3wk7/cap4.jpg)

I overlooked the Peugeot 208e but will investigate it now, thanks.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 06 June 2022, 02:57

.....The Renault system is ultra modern but not yet proven, and we know all about French cars and electrics!

Must admit, that was my first thought!  I think I may take some convincing that they've fixed that.  :wink:

David25.  My GTI was a 2018 7.5 - 169kw/380nm.

Sorry, I've now read your earlier posts and can see you were comparing against your 7.5

Would you say your Mini is really as quick as Exonian's video https://youtu.be/nV3CeD3324U shows?

Probably, yes, David.  My GTI was a manual and I always launched it conservatively, so in that regard the Mini is streets ahead in instant, off the line shove.  In general city driving, also the Mini feels significantly quicker.  The response is instant, unlike the GTI's throttle mapping which could often feel delayed (esp without a pedal box controller).  I suspect that if you drove both cars everywhere on 100% throttle the Mini would still feel quicker due to that instant torque shove, but the GTI would prove a tad quicker at the very top end.  Although I've been surprised how easily the Mini dealt with ~80-130kmh HWY overtakes on a couple of occasions.  I expected it to run out of puff, but it kept pulling hard.

I also find I tend to utilise the Mini's shove more because it's so easily accessible.  I've said it many times already, but I find it addictive.

In general, the "EV or not" question is highly individual.  In our case, the Mini as a city runabout is perfect. We have home solar and it seems that I will be able to largely charge it for free for probably 8 or 9 months of the year.  That's a hell of a cost saving.  Then there's the much lower servicing and costs and hopefully much reduced repair costs.

I like the EV experience enough that I'm considering replacing our family car (Mazda 3 Astina) with another EV eventually, but not until our laughably poor charging infrastructure improves - a lot.

In short, I looked at EVs primarily for cost savings, but was won over by the driving experience.  To each their own, but as a lifelong petrol head I was, to say the least, very surprised.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 06 June 2022, 18:50
Thanks Splashalot, I'm also looking for fun factor and certainly don't want to spend > 10,000 on an "electric box". The Mini looks like the cheapest car in that regard. Good fun up to 130kmh is also relevant for the UK.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: joe6 on 07 June 2022, 11:17
Enjoying your reviews on the mini splashalot and they provide good evidence for decision making. I do quite a few longer trips so think I will have to wait a bit longer for a small non-suv brick that has performance, good looks and the mileage to replace my ice. Will keep looking though.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 07 June 2022, 11:56
The range of six small non-SUV EV’s is tested to the limit in this Carwow video - they’re each driven until their batteries run out of charge. It’s worth a watch IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd2ArceiJd0

And this video is on the same theme but for larger EV’s;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg6-Vc9CSwk
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: joe6 on 08 June 2022, 12:55
Thanks SRGT. Further food thought-provoking material.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 08 June 2022, 13:00
Not available just yet but VW group do have smaller stuff coming

https://youtu.be/9xzfdmpQz9w

I’m liking that, it’s so ugly it’s beautiful!
I’m sure a more conservative VW or Skoda variant will be along soonish.
Mind you, the Cupra has attitude. Hopefully the production version won’t be too dumbed down.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 08 June 2022, 13:51
Not available just yet but VW group do have smaller stuff coming

https://youtu.be/9xzfdmpQz9w

I’m liking that, it’s so ugly it’s beautiful!
I’m sure a more conservative VW or Skoda variant will be along soonish.
Mind you, the Cupra has attitude. Hopefully the production version won’t be too dumbed down.

I really like it too :cool: and I don’t think it’s at all ugly. I’d have one.

As you say, hopefully it’s not altered too much before going into production.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 08 June 2022, 14:29
I’ve been invited to an E-Tech preview at my local Renault dealer in July.
I’m quite keen to have a look around one.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 08 June 2022, 14:33
I’ve been invited to an E-Tech preview at my local Renault dealer in July.
I’m quite keen to have a look around one.

I’ve been impressed by the video reviews I’ve watched. It’d be good to see one in the flesh. The quality of materials used in the cabin look to be a step up from the ID.3.

Be sure to report back if you do go along to have a look.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 08 June 2022, 18:53

https://www.cupraofficial.com/concept-cars/urbanrebel.html

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/cupra/urbanrebel/

Despite being three years out, Cupra already specs for the UrbanRebel: a 223bhp (166kW) motor should hit 0-62mph from a standstill in a healthy 6.9 seconds, and range should be 273-miles in the larger battery version. 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 09 June 2022, 13:45


I’ve been impressed by the video reviews I’ve watched. It’d be good to see one in the flesh. The quality of materials used in the cabin look to be a step up from the ID.3.

Be sure to report back if you do go along to have a look.

I’ll report back for sure.




2025 is far too long to wait for the UrbanRebel (I wonder if it’ll get a name change by then?) I need one yesterday! Far more inspiring looks than any of the dull ID models and their VW Commercial grade interiors.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 09 June 2022, 14:30


I’ve been impressed by the video reviews I’ve watched. It’d be good to see one in the flesh. The quality of materials used in the cabin look to be a step up from the ID.3.

Be sure to report back if you do go along to have a look.

I’ll report back for sure.




2025 is far too long to wait for the UrbanRebel (I wonder if it’ll get a name change by then?) I need one yesterday! Far more inspiring looks than any of the dull ID models and their VW Commercial grade interiors.

My Polo GTI+ will be 5 years old in 2025 and I normally change my cars when they are 4.5 - 5 years old, so 2025 would work for me. I’ve read that the Cupra brand sits above VW in VAG’s brand hierarchy so the UrbanRebel is likely to be more expensive than VW’s ID.2, ID Life (if they build the Life) or Skoda’s equivalent, whatever that might be called.

It’ll be interesting to see if there’s a performance version (a GTX?) of the ID.2.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 09 June 2022, 18:34
Interestingly (or not depending on point of view) the Leon, Born, Formentor and ID.4 sized thing that Cupra are launching soon all have a similar family snout to the UrbanRebel coming soon using those triangle themed headlights and styling highlights.
https://www.autodaily.com.au/cupra-formentor-and-leon-to-get-extensive-redesign/?fbclid=IwAR0x2KxiM4AH1zGbqhbLiRHUyUlzfXbxNCilb0yyCZ6f2hfRR0NSixaOWfI&fs=e&s=cl

Personally I really like the sci-fi looks
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 10 June 2022, 06:57
Looking forward to your Megane impressions, Exonian.

Just thought I'd update my latest findings:  This past week or so has been the first cold, Winter conditions for the Mini.  Today's usual run to town and back along suburban roads in 5-7c and light showers yielded a battery consumption figure of 12%, compared to the usual 10% in warmer weather.  Heating was set at 23c and the seat heaters for half the journey. So by my (admittedly primitive) deduction that's ~20% more energy used. 

Now the interesting part (to me) is that the Mini has a heat pump, which from what I've read uses only 25% or so of the energy an element heater would use.  So if anyone living there in the UK is considering purchasing an EV without a heat pump, be aware that Winter range may be significantly lower than quoted by the manufacturer, and achieved in warmer weather.

And to compound the issue, it seems most manufacturers don't list the type of heating in their specs, from what I've seen.  I'd guess omitting the heat pump is a big manufacturing cost saving and one which a lot of buyers would be clueless about.  So best to ask....
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 10 June 2022, 13:41
The fact that the MINI has a proper heat pump as standard was one of its big plus points to me too.
Especially important on cars with smaller batteries with already shortish range. You get a lot of EV for your money with the MINI SE.

 https://youtu.be/oy4UOQNO6EM if you can get over the ‘car wearing a toupee’ styling this looks interesting too. Decent power for the size of the vehicle which is important to us hot hatch devotees.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 11 June 2022, 04:25
I really, really like that Smart 1.  (I refuse to use the "hashtag" moniker).  As always, how it drives will be the chief determinant of my likely custom, but as a static presentation, it hits my nail exactly on the head.

The video lists it at 4720 length, but it's actually 4270 - which is a perfect size for us.

If it does sell for ID3 money.....good luck, VW.  The Smart's interior is light years ahead - very premium and stylish vs the ID3's austere drabness.  Hopefully the Smart's drive is just as good as the interior.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 11 June 2022, 10:34
The range of six small non-SUV EV’s is tested to the limit in this Carwow video - they’re each driven until their batteries run out of charge. It’s worth a watch IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd2ArceiJd0k

I'd missed that one the first time around. Its rather interesting.

Despite the crazy costs of a small car now, its an important sector - because despite them being expensive vs the past they are still cheaper than the next market segment up!

Important to me too as I don't want an SUV of any kind. Horrible things in every way.

Even though the Mini doesn't come out on top in this test, its still the one I desire - well, actually I desire the Honda but they really got the battery range messed up :( For a hi-tech Japanese company I don't see how they got that so wrong.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 14 June 2022, 08:38
As predicted the UK plug-in grant has been removed
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 14 June 2022, 11:12
As predicted the UK plug-in grant has been removed

IMHO it was always going to happen though; I’m just surprised at the timing of it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61795693
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: joe6 on 15 June 2022, 10:13
Any takers?  :laugh:
Despite being able to accelerate with scintillating power from rest to 62mph in just 3 seconds up to a top speed of 205mph the super-lightweight Artura also enjoys remarkably green credentials.
Claimed fuel economy for this supercar is a remarkable 61.5mpg - prompting McLaren  to claim the Artura as 'the most fuel efficient McLaren ever produced'. In keeping with that, CO2 emissions are just 104g/km – on a par with some superminis.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 15 June 2022, 20:05
https://youtu.be/CEebU238DB8

Sign me up!


… just as soon as my six numbers come up.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 29 June 2022, 16:16
I was admiring the Renault 5's the other week and saw this pop up today, I think it's a cracking looking concept, it would make me consider moving in the future. Hopefully it gets a good range, was a pity about the Honda E's long construction time that gave it a poor range.

https://evo.co.uk/renault/5/203425/renault-5-ev-stars-at-goodwood-festival-of-speed

Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 29 June 2022, 17:04
The Alpine Renault 5 sounds a VERY interesting concept.
The market is flooded with huge boring SUV’s, we desperately need something smaller, lighter, more nimble, quick through bends not just silly quick to 60… and funky to look at.

VW’s offerings are far too sterile unless the ID.2 will have a bit of flair like the Buzz, but so far the Renault 5 is leagues ahead in the styling stakes. 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 30 June 2022, 15:20
The Alpine Renault 5 sounds a VERY interesting concept.
The market is flooded with huge boring SUV’s, we desperately need something smaller, lighter, more nimble, quick through bends not just silly quick to 60… and funky to look at.

Agree, and the Alpine Renault 5 does look good IMHO.

VW’s offerings are far too sterile unless the ID.2 will have a bit of flair like the Buzz, but so far the Renault 5 is leagues ahead in the styling stakes.

From the renderings I’ve seen of the ID.2, if they’re accurate it’ll have pretty much no flair at all. To me it looks like the offspring of a T-Cross and an ID.3. :grin:

(https://i.postimg.cc/0y5X2fYJ/55-A1-CDDE-2-A08-4-F94-B2-D4-257-B93-D72-F55.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Maybe VW will develop their ID Life concept vehicle through to a production ready car in the small car segment. It won’t appeal to everyone, but IMHO at least it’s different and not a sterile ‘bland wagon’. It reminds me a little of the Honda e.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKs24xj9/4235595-E-C250-4291-8-F15-2-D013-EFCA7-E7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 30 June 2022, 19:26
The ID Life was kind of what I had in mind, but obviously it would be toned down a bit from the show car, is it too much to hope for a GTX version of that?
The UrbanRebel is maybe VW group’s best hope of competing with the R5 as far as styling goes for those of us that don’t want über-blandness if the ID Life doesn’t materialise.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 01 July 2022, 09:03
Volkswagen have just followed Tesla's lead of blandness and technology, unfortunately the volkswagen have dropped their quality a lot to match them.

People were forgiving of poor EV's to be seen as signal virtuers of 'I'm so green', but now normal people are able to get EV's, they won't have that luxury as normal people want zero issues. I think VW will have avery tough time over the next 4-8 years with how their platform is now of niche suv's and ugly ev's. Something the top sellers of golf, polo and passat can't help.

(https://i.postimg.cc/43vCSy1Q/2021-volkswagen-id3-virtually-travels-back-in-time-to-make-the-mk1-golf-an-ev-160276-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdpYd83D)
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 01 July 2022, 10:06
(https://i.postimg.cc/43vCSy1Q/2021-volkswagen-id3-virtually-travels-back-in-time-to-make-the-mk1-golf-an-ev-160276-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdpYd83D)

WTF is that!

Hideous!

They all seem fixated on:

1) An EV needs to look different to an ICE car because "future"

2) People only want to buy SUV's

I don't really get it... VAG of all people must understand that while they sell all of those crossover ICE vehicles, their biggest ICE sellers by volume are the standard hatchbacks Golf and Polo.

Is that because of the size/design though or price? If you made the crossovers the same price as the hatches, would people choose the hatch?

EV's are expensive. More expensive than ICE. Combine this with the change of strategy to high margin only, do they think the only thing they can sell is a SUV? Because nobody will pay 40-50k for a "Golf".... oh hang on...
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 01 July 2022, 12:49
Meant to be the mk1 golf reimagined as an EV, little shock and awe for everyone  :grin:

Locally people are quite quick to change their cars to something new whether that's business deals or pcp who knows! But there's plenty of mk8 golfs (mostly GTE's surprisingly), polos, 3 series, x3s and electric mini's, so I think that speaks volumes of what people actually want aka not look like a t#t.

I did see an edition 45 today while going to the shop, great looking car but I still can't get over the interiors just too plain for me.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 02 July 2022, 02:58


(https://i.postimg.cc/43vCSy1Q/2021-volkswagen-id3-virtually-travels-back-in-time-to-make-the-mk1-golf-an-ev-160276-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdpYd83D)

That is gorgeous.  A mk1 Golf EV!  I'd buy one. 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 02 July 2022, 09:19
That is gorgeous.  A mk1 Golf EV!  I'd buy one.

Agree, it looks great and VW were to make modern day mk1 Golf as an EV, I’d have one too if it wasn’t stupid money. Always hankered after a mk1 GTI and never had one :sad:.

Here’s another picture - this one includes the front profile;

(https://i.postimg.cc/htrczVMm/330-EBE9-F-69-CD-4786-B634-9664-EB581098.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 02 July 2022, 11:13
With a couple of revisions I think that would make lovely car, like SRGTD I always wanted a mk1, but now it's a struggle to get a good mk5  :cry:

Still on the hunt for a mk2 to rebuild though.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: joe6 on 03 July 2022, 09:42
Front view needs a couple of spots but generally has the mk1 retro look. I wanted a mk 1 after a test drive in Germany in 1978 but out of my price range :sad:. Eventually got a new escort xr3i with efi and after fitting decent bilsteins really enjoyed it with 60 in just over 9secs and reasonable handling. It is still around locally but being refurbished at present.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Yusee on 03 July 2022, 11:40
What a great design. 40 years on and people still look at it and think “ I want one “
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 03 July 2022, 12:25
What a great design. 40 years on and people still look at it and think “ I want one “

Agree 100%. Clean and timeless.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 07 July 2022, 03:10
Took a Tesla Model 3 for a fairly brief test drive last night.

The Drive: 

Surprisingly good.  I probably had low expectations, but was very pleasantly surprised.  In short, I'd describe it as a refined, smooth sports saloon.  Ride was very absorbent of larger bumps on the std 18" wheels, giving quite a plush feeling.  Although paradoxically, cats eyes crashed through alarmingly. I'd hate to imagine what 19" wheels would be like. But overall, a very smooth, comfortable ride.  Accelerating and braking was also very smooth and well graduated, with regen braking bleeding in very smoothly and progressively.  Handling was flat and turn-in good.  The steering was very quick off-centre - a little alarmingly at first.  It took a while to acclimate.  Visibility is outstanding, with a very low scuttle in front of the driver - there is an unimpeded view straight down to the road.

The Touchscreen:

As most will know, nearly everything is actuated through the touchscreen.  Things like air-recirc require going into the climate menu then selecting that option.  The menu then reverts back to the "home" screen, which is 1/2 to 2/3rd map with various icons scattered about in the remainder.  The only speed display is a small icon, maybe the size of my fingernail, in the top right corner.  Too small for these old eyes, although the location was fine after a short while, surprisingly.

But my main beef with the screen was the multitude of text within the menus, which was too small for me to read.  I'd guess maybe 10pt font?  I would need to pull over and put my reading glasses on.  I guess it might work if you have bifocals, but those don't work for me.  I'm really not sure it would work for me.  Which is a shame, as I loved the drive.

In short - Fred would love it! Tech heaven.  Go buy one mate, you won't be disappointed.  But for us older, focally-challenged people - do not buy one without trying it first to see if you can live with that touchscreen.

Edit:  Found this very thorough demonstration of the screen and functions which illustrates the too-small (IMO) font.  You can skip to the various chapters.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIEHUC_3D8Q&ab_channel=Sibs%2FAlexSibila
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 07 July 2022, 13:52
LOL I love tech as you know but I find stuff hard to read without my reading glasses.... on my MK8 luckily I have a HUGE speedo display and the HUD put the text at a distance i can read easily.

Not so much the audio and I randomly stab at songs or radio stations.

Sounds like a tesla would be a nightmare.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 08 July 2022, 03:00
LOL I love tech as you know but I find stuff hard to read without my reading glasses.... on my MK8 luckily I have a HUGE speedo display and the HUD put the text at a distance i can read easily.

Not so much the audio and I randomly stab at songs or radio stations.

Sounds like a tesla would be a nightmare.

Yep, a really stupid oversight.  In terms of usability, it would probably be a deal breaker for me.

Reading through some owners' forums yesterday, there were a number of gripes about software updates which change the format of some menus and location and size of icons.  For example, they made the digital speedo reading smaller in the latest update!  WTAF?! 

Another issue I discovered was the lack of service post-sale.  If you bingle the car and need parts, good luck:
a.) getting the part;
b.) getting the correct part or without key bits missing; and
c.) good luck getting any form of communication from Tesla.

It seems Tesla's standard response is to blame the bodyworks.  There were plenty of owners with cars off the road for 6 months plus, with basically no idea when they will get it back repaired.

Those two issues are enough to cross the model 3 off my list, which is a shame, as it drives really nicely.

I would expect EV post-sale support would be way better with one of the larger, existing marques.  For example, we had the windscreen cracked by a stone on our Mazda 3 when only days old.  A new OEM screen was freighted to Hobart from Mazda Aus and fitted within a week.  There are people on that Tesla forum waiting for a windscreen over 6 months with no communication.  Stuff that!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 08 July 2022, 05:52
Very interesting to read your thoughts on the Tesla.

I have huge respect for Tesla and their cars, I’ve read much on how good the cars are from people that know about such things over the past however many years, and there’s no denying some of them are bloody quick. Superbike quick.

But I’ve never really gelled with the styling, their size is all wrong for me and, well I’ve just never quite *got* them.
Kudos for their performance.
 :grin: for the farting.
Admiration for their dedicated charging network which was well ahead of the game.


I’m genuinely quite surprised to read that about their aftercare and lack of spare parts.
We can forgive a lot for a fledgling company that found they had a runaway sales success on their hands, but the after sales sounds like it’s lagging way behind and naively run.
Maybe the Tesla vision was to sell cars that never went wrong or got crashed in their brave new utopian world.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 08 July 2022, 08:38

Maybe the Tesla vision was to sell cars that never went wrong or got crashed in their brave new utopian world.

I'd hazard a guess that Tesla are either totally focused on profits from sales up front, or were, as you say, quite naive about this car making business - in terms of supporting their customers post-sale.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 08 July 2022, 10:40
Most of the Tesla horror stories I've seen relate to software "upgrades" that are delivered without consent...

The software model they have adopted is akin to things like Facebook or Gmail - one day you switch on to find they have "improved" something and you hate it.

I'd rather not have that with my car thank you.

The other blinder they pulled is that their automated driving thing is subject to change at whim, even as far as removing capability... oh and they licence it only to the first owner of the car.... it doesn't stay when you sell it on - much like some software licences aren't transferable. Buying one second hand, you have to pay again for it.

I suspect VW might well do the same for any things bought through the shop in a current VAG model. Its tied to your VW account, if you logout (when you sell) its no longer available to a future owner. Which is nice.

Equally, I don't suppose if you replace it with an identical vehicle that magically your previously purchased things work - which they would if you bought a new Iphone or Android phone...
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: david25 on 10 July 2022, 11:09
Another one

Cupra Born (ID3) in Autocar 6th July, the 58khw version got 220 miles (summer) with its liquid cooled battery, but a heat pump will be £1000 extra!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 19 October 2022, 19:57
I keep meaning to ask, how’s the MINI SE experience going now Splashalot?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 09 November 2022, 09:31
Hmmmm electric Abarth anyone?

https://www.evo.co.uk/abarth/500/205410/all-electric-abarth-500-to-launch-on-november-22
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 09 November 2022, 17:12
Sign me up Fred! Looks very interesting.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: fredgroves on 17 November 2022, 13:15
Road tax on EV's now!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 17 November 2022, 21:46
Company car tax going up on them too!
I wonder if it’ll be applicable to vehicles registered before the first day the tax goes live (2025 was it?) or whether it’ll only apply from registrations thereafter. Funnily enough I was following a new MG4 on the M5 just after that announcement on the radio, (boring budget speeches and boring motorway journeys compliment one another well) it was the first example I’ve seen in the flesh. Quite a nice looking car, slightly more bland in the flesh than in photos but a decent size unlike most of the electric SUVs. Would look great with some 20” alloys.
Bearing in mind most EVs are north of £40k I wonder if they’ll be hit for luxury car tax.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 18 November 2022, 02:34
… finally had chance to read up on it a bit.
They escape the £40k VED at least.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: SRGTD on 18 November 2022, 16:36
… finally had chance to read up on it a bit.
They escape the £40k VED at least.

According to the the news item on the BBC website at the link below, electric cars with a list price of more than £40k will be subject to the additional VED rate in the same way that fossil fuelled cars costing more than £40k are. Assuming that’s correct, then they won’t escape. Extracts from the BBC news item;

Electric vehicles registered from April 2025 will pay the lowest rate of vehicle excise duty (VED) in the first year, then move to the standard VED rate, currently £165. Those registered from April 2017 will also pay the standard rate.

In the Autumn Statement the chancellor also announced that electric cars would no longer be exempt from the expensive car supplement. The supplement of £355 is charged every year from the second to sixth year of registration for vehicles priced at more than £40,000.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63671302

And from Fleet News, which seems to confirm the £40k enhanced VED rate will apply to EV’s;

From the second year of registration onwards, they will move to the standard rate, currently £165 a year. Zero emission cars first registered between April 1, 2017, and March 31, 2025, will also pay the standard rate.

The Expensive Car Supplement exemption for EVs is due to end in 2025. New zero emission cars registered on or after April 1, 2025 will therefore be liable for the expensive car supplement, says the Treasury.

The Expensive Car Supplement currently applies to cars with a list price exceeding £40,000 for five years.


https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2022/11/17/autumn-statement-company-car-tax-for-evs-to-increase-by-1

As the majority of EV’s have a list price of £40k+, or will have by the time one or two factory options are added, most EV’s will be subject to the additional VED rate of (currently) £355 on top of the standard £165 rate in years 2-6 inclusive.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 18 November 2022, 22:31
Very thorough as ever SR!
Funnily enough it was the BBC that I’d read on actual budget night and there was no mention of the £40k tax then, they must’ve studied the small print later once they’d digested the summarised budget highlights and typed up their initial articles. Either that or I was half asleep when I read the initial post budget roundup. Either is likely and the latter very likely!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Snoopy on 19 November 2022, 14:22
After the budget and also from watching the comparison by Whatcar the week before I'm just sticking for now.
https://youtu.be/SzZYRFZUbn0
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Adam T7 on 19 November 2022, 16:37
Interesting video👍
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 04 December 2022, 02:46
I keep meaning to ask, how’s the MINI SE experience going now Splashalot?

Sorry for the belated response, Exonian.  I'm a bit of an infrequent visitor here nowadays.

The Mini?  In short, brilliant.  Over 1 year now, so the initial new car ownership glow has worn off, but the satisfaction and enjoyment remain unchanged.  No issues at all with the car.  The only thing I would change would be a smoother transition for the regen braking in normal mode.  But that's being really, really picky.

The video Snoopy linked is interesting, and reinforces my current thinking: EV for city runabout, petrol car for longer distance touring.  We run the Mini mostly off rooftop solar, so it costs us next to nothing, but as the video shows, if you have to rely on public charging, those savings are in the bin.  Not to mention the time and inconvenience factor of having to wait for a charger to become available.

I've toyed with replacing our 2.5 ltr petrol Mazda 3 with a Polestar 2 or Hyundai/Kia for longer distance touring, but our public charging infrastructure is laughable (courtesy of a decade with a climate change denying federal government - now thankfully banished)  For example, last time I checked there were two - yes TWO - Tesla superchargers in the whole State.  We will need a massive increase in this infrastructure to make touring in an EV acceptable.

In other news, since last checking in I test drove the Polestar 2 and loved it.  More refined and better engineered than the Tesla 3.  However, it seems Polestar have a significant issue with some of the electronics which can brick the car (Google TCAM Polestar).  So beware anyone considering getting one.  Lovely thing to drive, though.

Cheers
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Adam T7 on 04 December 2022, 07:29
My mate picked his Mini EV up yesterday so we went out for a blast. Acceleration is wicked and the handling superb, all the toys you could want. Range on 85% charge was 83 miles though we were giving it some😄
Build quality was lovely.
He has a holiday home about 300 miles away so the Mini will never see that, it’s purely to take him to work and mess about locally, He runs his own business so through the company it’s practically free.
Nice car but I was glad to get back into my GTI to be honest👍
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Adam T7 on 04 December 2022, 07:35
My mate picked his Mini EV up yesterday so we went out for a blast. Acceleration is wicked and the handling superb, all the toys you could want. Range on 85% charge was 83 miles though we were giving it some😄
Build quality was lovely.
He has a holiday home about 300 miles away so the Mini will never see that, it’s purely to take him to work and mess about locally, He runs his own business so through the company it’s practically free.
Nice car but I was glad to get back into my GTI to be honest👍
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 04 December 2022, 14:25
Good to see you drop by Splashalot, even better to hear you’re still loving the Mini.

Very interesting to read that about Polestar. News like that isn’t exactly encouraging!
The South Koreans do seem to have stolen the lead as far as EV’s go. The Europeans (particularly German owned marques) have a bit of catching up to do. Much as I dislike SUV’s the EV6 GT looks very appealing (way too large and expensive for me though).
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 04 December 2022, 15:56
Maybe a tuned ID Buzz is better for you Exonian?

https://www.autobild.de/artikel/essen-motor-show-jp-performance-bbs-kw-vw-id.buzz-tuning-22318619.html
(https://i.postimg.cc/59XY1LYW/Screenshot-2022-12-04-at-15-54-10.png) (https://postimg.cc/V5cLWSWK)
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 04 December 2022, 20:02
That’s more like it Will  :grin:
Mind you that’d be even more unaffordable!
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: willni on 05 December 2022, 22:20
With the prices of a normal transporter van & then the caravelles I don't think I'd want to know the price of that Buzz  :sick:
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Splashalot on 13 December 2022, 02:16
.. Much as I dislike SUV’s the EV6 GT looks very appealing (way too large and expensive for me though).

I've seen the EV6 on the road a few times, and cannot understand how or why it's classified as an SUV.  To my eyes, it looks like a wagon/hatch cross on an almost conventional ride height.  It is fairly large, though.  Borderline too big for me, too.  But it is completely different to the brick-like SUVs so common now.

In general, I agree the Koreans have nailed EVs best at this stage. 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 13 December 2022, 19:11
The EV6 and Ioniq 5 aren’t SUV’s in styling but their footprint and weight are more SUV than traditional hatchback cars as we know them. They’re pretty much a new format in themselves really, same as the bigger ID cars VW group produce.
We see a lot of those Korean EV’s from Kia/Hyundai in the UK and they stand out from the Golf/Focus class of hatch which traditionally dominated sales charts by virtue of their sheer size. In other markets maybe they don’t seem so big compared to popular vehicles that people are familiar with respectively.
I’m sure they have their faults but they seem very impressive. Pricey though, but what isn’t nowadays?
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: joe6 on 03 February 2023, 17:35
So latest data suggests that ev values of 3 year old cars has dropped by nearly 7% in Jan 2023 compared to petrol and diesel drops of about 0.1%. Dealers had typically an 80% turn over of ice cars in Jan compared to 20% of evs. They might be a touch more affordable before long if you want one at the moment! Honda say small evs are not economic to build but bmw seem to manage with the mini although manufacturing is moving to China shortly.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 03 February 2023, 20:04
Having read various things recently on the state of play for EV sales in the UK there are some changes in the market for sure.
A few things I’ve noticed are some manufacturers dumping their fleet/press/staff cars into dealership forecourts in January likely because they had to pre-register lots of new EV’s in December 2022 to meet zero emissions car sales targets or get fines. This sheer number of cars hitting the market in January has caused a natural dip in prices on its own.
Supply seems to have improved on new cars and I’d hazard a guess that sales have slowed dramatically with huge interest rate hikes and masses of potential customers taking part in strike action therefore seeing big drops in income and a reluctance to take on debt or empty savings pots on luxuries. These type of potential customers would be ones who would have salary sacrifice cars open to them which would probably be more attractive than a personal purchase owing to very high PCP rates.
I’ve read a couple of posts where people attempting to sell EV’s are finding the trade unwilling to bid on their cars right now, but demand and hence prices for petrol powered cars are strong. It’ll no doubt change again soon but an awful lot of this negativity towards EV’s is down to the crap charging infrastructure and an awful lot of bad press surrounding that. Literally this afternoon whilst going to collect an emergency prescription for  someone I passed the only two chargers in the town centre both roped off as out of action.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Snoopy on 04 February 2023, 10:35
Ive actually been looking at the MINI level 2 again due to my left knee giving me some issues i think its really time for my trusty Leon to go after 18yrs :undecided: .  Its duties is basically grocery getter and local errands so an EV would probably be a good replacement for it but keeps thinking as a car guy would a JCW auto be a saver bet.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Adam T7 on 04 February 2023, 10:43
Ive actually been looking at the MINI level 2 again due to my left knee giving me some issues i think its really time for my trusty Leon to go after 18yrs :undecided: .  Its duties is basically grocery getter and local errands so an EV would probably be a good replacement for it but keeps thinking as a car guy would a JCW auto be a saver bet.

Mate has one, lovely car but winter range is 100 miles. Suits him as he leases it through his company so it’s practically free net of tax and his commute his about 15 miles a day. He’s having to drive to Cheltenham today so taking his wife’s diesel Clio. You pays your money, you takes your choice. I’ll stick with ICE.
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Exonian on 04 February 2023, 12:39
Snoopy, the new JCW’s look superb with their beefy cartoonish bumpers, and they do actually sound pretty good too, but for pootling around there’s no way they can match the immediacy of power delivery the electric makes. Use it for 90% local driving and it makes huge sense as it just picks up its skirts and goes at sub-motorway speeds. Once you’ve driven a MINI EV you’ll understand.
Tough choice though as the JCW offers a lot too in different ways.
If you’re going to get a MINI EV then there’s a huge choice at the moment as MINI have dumped it’s fleet of 12-18 month old  cars onto forecourts around the country; at around £25-26k for a L2 they make a decent buy as a first foray into EV ownership in something that’s not as big and heavy as a battle tank and still has proper buttons and a decent BMW UI.
While there’s still a good choice of very low mileage year old examples about you could potentially pick through the colour and spec that suits you best rather than wait an age for a non discounted new one. As little as a month ago it would have made better sense to buy new but the prices have finally dropped on main dealer used ones. Used ones as a cash buy look attractive whereas at 13.9%  :shocked: APR on a PCP they definitely don’t!

Adam, your mate has the benefit of the best of both worlds. Small EV for local use and Diesel for longer range. The right horses for the right courses.
Like yourself, petrol still makes best sense for me as although I have a sub 30 mile round trip commute in the week where the MINI EV would be superb in the lanes, my sister lives 160 miles in one direction and my father 130 miles in t’other. It would potentially take two charges just to reach my sis in bad weather. Mind you I only visit her about once a decade… 
Title: Re: To EV or not to EV, that is the question....
Post by: Adam T7 on 04 February 2023, 13:28
Totally agree 👍
The smooth acceleration of his Mini is a real giggle and he doesn’t need the range. Next car I get the missus (whenever that maybe) will be an EV as it will never be more than 15 miles from home and I’ll keep my GTI until it turns into dust.