Author Topic: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI  (Read 2927 times)

Offline BobbyT

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WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« on: 04 January 2019, 12:11 »
Seem's VW has dropped the extra injectors on the new emission engines on the GTI and R. This will cause carbon build up issues down the line, not good really. The US cars have issues with carbon build up from 40 to 100k depending on driving style and luck.  :sad:

https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30203-golf-r-2019-wltp-looses-mpi-dual-injection/

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Offline Jim_mk7.5

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #1 on: 04 January 2019, 13:20 »
Would this be the case on 2018 models? Mine has the GPF filter, got the car in June. Doesn't really bother me as on a lease but was considering option to buy at the car when the lease finished.
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Offline fredgroves

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #2 on: 04 January 2019, 13:46 »
I think the answer is in here:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/01/2014014-audi.html

The green credentials needed these days concern particulate emissions... GDI causes more particulates.

From that article I linked:

Quote
The JRC report noted that it was not clear if OEMs could meet GDI particle limits via engine improvements, or whether this will require the introduction of a Gasoline Particulate Filter (GPF)—a solution that would add to the cost of the already more costly GDI engine itself.

I *suggest* that the increased target for particulate reduction exceeded what was possible with the dual injection system and therefore needed the GPF to achieve it - we know they did add one of these.

If you have the GPF on the exhaust, you don't need the dual injection system to reduce tailpipe particle emission, because the GPF is more efficient.

Therefore, you only other reason to retain the dual injection is to reduce engine carbon build up - but if that comes in at around 70,000 miles.... isn't that a non-warranty issue therefore not on the bean counters spreadsheet?

Anyway, just my analysis of what I think has happened...

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #3 on: 04 January 2019, 21:55 »
^ You'd hope that VW have something else in place to combat port valve coking. Reading up on it suggests that most of the build up is oil from guide rails etc (which doesn't get washed away by MPI fuel input) which burns up to carbon content of the oil remaining rather than  particulate matter from fuel. The reading matter also suggested that use of fully synthetic fuel with a higher boiling point will be less susceptible to reducing to carbon and changing oil regularly also helps. If all that is true (seemed plausible to me), it could signal the end of long life servicing and use of lesser oils for standard interval oil changes.

If VW have nothing in place, their reputation for long term mechanical reliability is going to be in tatters. They were one of the first to implement MPI and state in their technology literature that it was partially to prevent valve coking.

If they have no alternative preventive measures in place, then maybe this is connected to VWs withdrawal of extended warranties - they do care what happens up to 3 years/60k miles when they're picking up the tab under standard warranty, but would like to be not carrying the can under extended warranty when the car is 4 or 5 years old and potentially close to 100k miles on the clock when coking would have definitely manifested itself if it is going to happen. Last time I looked  you could still get extended warranties in France and Germany - might be worth another look on their sites.

I wonder if other marques with MPI implementation are now about to remove it.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2019, 22:41 by monkeyhanger »
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Offline fredgroves

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #4 on: 04 January 2019, 23:17 »
It's only a cludge for the last gasps of the mk7 anyway.... The mk8 almost certainly won't need the same cludge.

It's all about risk vs cost and its limited exposure.

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #5 on: 05 January 2019, 09:28 »
It's only a cludge for the last gasps of the mk7 anyway.... The mk8 almost certainly won't need the same cludge.

It's all about risk vs cost and its limited exposure.

You think it's only a cludge for run out MK7s? That seems a bit short sighted as the same engine is used in plenty of other VAG models which are nowhere near the end of their lifecycle (and i'd have to assume that they're losing MPI too) - the Polo is only a year old and the Polo GTI uses a detuned version of the same engine. I doubt this is a Golf GTI only loss of the MPI for purely DI.

Either way, should they really be aiming to bugger up the long term reliability of even just a year's worth of Golf GTI and R output.

They've just created a new engine code for the evolution of the engine that's now lost MPI - would they create a new engine variant for just a year's exclusive use on performance Golfs? How sure are you that they won't use this new variant in the MK8 Golf?

I suppose we won't know for sure until someone inspects a non-Golf that's WLTP approved which uses the same engine (Polo GTI, perhaps a Passat or Arteon variant).

It would be handy to see if all of the petrol engines are losing MPI (assuming they had it in the first place) post WLTP such as all of the 3-cyl 1.0TSI, 1.5TSI EVO, anything bigger than 2.0. If they are, i'd hopeVW have an alternative solution in place.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2019, 09:31 by monkeyhanger »
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Offline fredgroves

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #6 on: 05 January 2019, 09:55 »
How many GDI engines are sold by car makers or have been sold by car makers?

Are all of those vehicles currently off the road waiting to be crushed?

I'm not sure the level of hysteria with people cancelling orders and throwing teddy out of the pram is truly warranted...

And yes I am fairly sure that the Mk8 engine design is going to be something very much different to what we see today. Its going to be a hybrid...

Offline monkeyhanger

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #7 on: 05 January 2019, 10:16 »
How many GDI engines are sold by car makers or have been sold by car makers?

Are all of those vehicles currently off the road waiting to be crushed?

I'm not sure the level of hysteria with people cancelling orders and throwing teddy out of the pram is truly warranted...

And yes I am fairly sure that the Mk8 engine design is going to be something very much different to what we see today. Its going to be a hybrid...

Most of those other manufacturers offer longer warranties than VW, so less worry for the consumer - even Alfa Romeo offer 5 year warranties now. Most mace also implemented MPI as VAG did. I'm hoping that VAG have removed the tech because it's no longer required to keep coking at bay. If not  most are going to be sceptical to keeping their cars long term. I hope to keep my Polo GTI+ a long time (it's quite a jump in infotainment tech over the current Golf - it'll all end up on the MK8), as well as the incoming one - which might end up without MPI and will have a GPF (The current one I have doesn't have a GPF but does have MPI).
The engine itself doesn't have to fundamentally change to give you a hybrid, just tie in with supplementary electric motors.

We have hybrids to supplement power at the top end, I do wonder, for the sake of economy why we haven't really had much in the way of front end electric working? Imagine a petrol engined car with only 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th gears and 1st/2nd is taken care of exclusively by electric motors for cleaner and more economical city crawling.
« Last Edit: 05 January 2019, 10:29 by monkeyhanger »
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Offline mcmaddy

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #8 on: 05 January 2019, 11:07 »
So reading this if you order a 7.5 GTi now in the UK will it have MPI or not?
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Offline kmpowell

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Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
« Reply #9 on: 05 January 2019, 11:19 »
So reading this if you order a 7.5 GTi now in the UK will it have MPI or not?
I don't think there's a definitive answer on that quite yet. If the 245 is no longer MPI then I suspect there was a crossover at some point (maybe MY19), but at what point that happened is anybody's guess because cars had been built (and were being built) whilst WLTP approval for the 245 was still taking place. If it is no longer MPI then it's safe to assume any order placed now will arrive without MPI.

I pick up my MY19 car tomorrow, which I think was built before the approval actually happened so I will happily take a picture of the engine bay if people want?

To be honest though, whether mine is MPI or not I couldn't care less. Far bigger things in life to worry over, and in the real world it won't make a jot of difference.  :smiley:
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