Author Topic: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall  (Read 4056 times)

Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #10 on: 22 February 2018, 21:15 »
But the EA189 is a Euro5 engine not EVER fitted to a Mk7 Golf....

Some people were lied to, but not Mk7 owners.

I am an owner of multiple Volkswagen vehicles. Some of them have engines fitted to them which have been affected by the Volkswagen emmisions issue and some of them have engines fitted to them which have not been affected by the Volkswagen emissions issue.
I own both an EA189 Euro 5 engined Volkswagen vehicle and a MK7 Golf (GTD with EA288 Euro 6 engine) as well as other Volkswagen vehicles.
« Last Edit: 22 February 2018, 21:16 by JHWP »

Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #11 on: 22 February 2018, 21:15 »
And you weren't lied to by Volkswagen about emmisions either. The so called cheat devices were used in the US not anywhere else. We don't even test for NoX emissions over here so don't understand your gripe.

You may wish to check your facts there...

The emissions issue affected 11 million vehicles worldwide. Of those 11 million vehicles, 500,000 were in the U.S.A. That leaves 10.5 million affected vehicles outside of the U.S.A., one of mine included. I was contacted by way of official letter from Volkswagen and told that my vehicle was effected by the emissions issue. I was told that a service action was required to rectify the issue. I asked if the service action would have any impact on my car in any way. Volkswagen told me that it would not and the car would operate the same as before having the service action carried out. The vehicle subsequently was rectified and since then it has been down on power, been using more fuel and is a completely different car to drive in a 100% negative way.

I'm not sure where "over here" is specifically but regardless of where testing for NOx may be carried out or may not be carried out, NOx levels are included within the E.U. emission standards (EU5, EU6 etc.) tests. So all models of cars that meet the E.U. emissions standards are tested for NOx. If they don't meet the required standard, for example if they have too high a level of NOx output, they will fail the test, won't be certified and cannot be sold in the E.U.

I don't understand why you don't understand my gripe.
No matter what your personal opinion is, what Volkswagen did and the way they did it was deceitful and downright wrong. This is a fact. The fines and prison sentences given to them and their staff underline this.
« Last Edit: 22 February 2018, 21:18 by JHWP »

Offline mcmaddy

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #12 on: 22 February 2018, 23:02 »
The VW update was voluntary not compulsory so not sure why you felt it necessary to have anything done. NoX levels aren't part of a UK MOT test so effectively it hasn't failed or cheated anything. As for fines and prison sentences that was just to keep all the do gooders in USA happy. Do people seriously think that American cars are cleaner than VW cars?
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Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #13 on: 23 February 2018, 15:55 »
The VW update was voluntary not compulsory so not sure why you felt it necessary to have anything done.

I didn't feel it necessary but if it was free and caused no ill effects to my vehicle and improved the emissions then why would I or anybody not have it done? I don't want to have to breath in air that has a higher level of pollutants than I should. Why would anybody? Unfortunately the emissions fix did cause ill effects to my vehicle and this brings me back to my original point of being wary or cautious about any other service actions whether or not it is related to the emissions issue or if it is on a vehicle that is or isn't included within it.

NoX levels aren't part of a UK MOT test so effectively it hasn't failed or cheated anything.

What makes you think that I am in the U.K.?

As for fines and prison sentences that was just to keep all the do gooders in USA happy.

Really?
Volkswagen pleaded guilty to criminal charges, they were ordered to pay 2.8 billion Dollars in criminal fines, several Volkswagen executives were sent to prison and the whole thing has cost Volkswagen 30 billion Dollars. This was just to keep all the do gooders in the U.S.A. happy? (I'm not sure what this even means exactly). I'm all for a fair debate but this view is bordering on ridiculous. The fines and prison sentences were imposed because they broke the law. This is a fact.

Do people seriously think that American cars are cleaner than VW cars?

I'm not sure what people think on whether American cars are cleaner than Volkswagen cars, I suppose you would have to ask them but any American cars would have to meet and pass the same emissions standards of all other non American cars sold within the particular market be it within or outside the U.S.A., this includes Volkswagen cars. As is the case, Volkswagen cars could not meet and pass the emissions standards so they used a cheat device to get the cars to meet and pass the emissions standards while being tested so in answer to your question, American cars are or at least were cleaner than Volkswagen cars when the particular cars involved in the emissions issue and equivalent American cars are considered. So assumed on facts, the above one in particular, I would imagine that people do seriously think that American cars are cleaner than Volkswagen cars because well, they actually were. They managed to pass emissions tests without the need of any type of cheat device whereas Volkswagen were unable to do this because the emissions levels of their cars were higher (less clean and too high to pass the test) than that of all the other cars including American cars that could pass the test. The emissions of all the other cars including the American ones were lower (more clean and low enough to pass the test) therefore at that particular time for those particular vehicles American cars (plus all other non American cars, other than Volkswagen) were cleaner than the Volkswagen cars being referred to.

Offline mcmaddy

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #14 on: 23 February 2018, 18:36 »
Many other manufacturers have also been misleading owners with false emissions data so it isn't just VW. You can't seriously think that an American V8 is cleaner than a VW diesel can you??
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Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #15 on: 24 February 2018, 14:46 »
Many other manufacturers have also been misleading owners with false emissions data so it isn't just VW.

Really? Which manufacturers have been misleading owners with false emissions data and how have they been doing it? Have any of these manufacturers had any action taken against them for this like Volkswagen have had?

You have contradicted yourself in this thread. You previously said that Volkswagen had not lied to me, yet you have indicated here that Volkswagen have lied to me (and other owners) by way of providing false emissions data. I am now unsure if you think Volkswagen have lied to me or that Volkswagen have not lied to me, as obviously it can only be one of the two scenarios and not both.

The definition of the word 'lie' as per the dictionary for reference -
1. A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2. Something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture:
3. An inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood.

You can't seriously think that an American V8 is cleaner than a VW diesel can you??

I can't answer this question unless you are more specific in relation to the engines you are referring to. I would need to know which particular American manufactured V8 engine(s) and which particular Volkswagen manufactured diesel engine(s) you are asking me to compare the cleanliness (emissions output) of. To date, there have been multiple American made V8 engines produced (both petrol and diesel) over a sizeable time period and produced to meet different emissions standards over that time period. Volkswagen have manufactured a wide range of diesel engines, also over a sizeable time period and manufactured to meet different emissions standards over that time period. Should you wish to elaborate sufficiently, I should be able to answer your question.

Offline mcmaddy

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #16 on: 24 February 2018, 17:53 »
Jesus you sound a right barrel of laughs!!! If you are in the UK ( I can't tell as it appears you haven't put a location on your profile, or I can't see it on a mobile device) then you haven't been lied to by anyone. The UK doesn't test for NoX levels and I doubt if you even gave them a second thought when buying your devils transport. Nissan, Renault, Mercedes, BMW amongst others have all been found misleading authorities about the levels of emissions so VW are not alone. To be honest I don't care either way and can't be arsed with conversations from people b!tching about being lied to when I guarentee not one owner gave NoX levels a single thought when they purchased a car.
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Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #17 on: 24 February 2018, 22:56 »
If you are in the UK ( I can't tell as it appears you haven't put a location on your profile, or I can't see it on a mobile device) then you haven't been lied to by anyone.

I am not in the U.K. You previously appeared to me to assume that I am in the U.K. I did ask you the question of what made you think that I was in the U.K. but you did not answer that question.
I am unaware of any information stating that Volkswagen customers in the U.K. are not affected by the emissions scandal. If this was true, I am unsure as to why Volkswagen U.K. decided to recall one million, two hundred thousand vehicles for an emissions fix as a result of the emission scandal.
You have contradicted yourself here further. You first said that I had not been lied to. You then said that I had been lied to and you are now saying that I have not been lied to again but, if I am not in the U.K. (which is true) I have been lied to? This is getting difficult to follow. Volkswagen themselves are of the opinion that they broke the trust of their customers by giving false information i.e. lying so I am unsure as to why you are of the opinion that they have not lied to me when they themselves are of the opinion that they have.
I am unclear as to how being in the U.K. (or wherever my location is) has anything to do with whether or not I have been lied to by Volkswagen.

The UK doesn't test for NoX levels and I doubt if you even gave them a second thought when buying your devils transport.

As stated above, I am not in the U.K. Whether or not a U.K. MOT test includes testing for NOx does not have any bearing on whether or not Volkswagen have lied to me and everyone else about their emissions.
You would be incorrect in assuming that I did not consider the emissions levels of the vehicles I have purchased in the past (if this is what you mean by devils transport). I'm unclear as to exactly what is meant by devils transport. I am also unclear as to how you would know any details of what I base my purchasing decisions on.

To be honest I don't care either way and can't be arsed with conversations from people b!tching about being lied to...

I find it hard to believe that you don't care and couldn't be bothered as if this was the case, surely you would not have chosen to pursue this in the way you have, up to this point. If you don't care now, you certainly gave the perception that you did previously.
I don't believe there has been any b!tching from me about being lied to, I have just stated facts. I mentioned it in my original post in relation to the level of trust I would give Volkswagen based on it. The subject of my original post was about a field recall, it was not about being lied to by Volkswagen. It was you that originally asked me the question of what exactly have Volkswagen lied to me about. You asked me the question and I gave you the courtesy of answering it. I certainly don't think that my diminished level of trust is unjustified. Below is a statement of apology from the previous CEO of Volkswagen; Martin Winterkorn. He makes multiple references to trust.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the irregularities with diesel engines from our corporation oppose everything that Volkswagen stands for. I also currently don’t have the answers to all the questions. But we are in the process to unsparingly reveal the background.
For that purpose, we are currently putting everything on the table – as fast, thoroughly and transparent as possible. And we are continuing to closely cooperating with government and regulatory authorities. The speedy and comprehensive investigation has the highest priority. This is our obligation towards our customers, our employees and the public. And to say it bluntly this can never occur again.

Ladies and Gentlemen, many millions of people around the world trust our brands, our cars and our technologies. I am endlessly sorry that we disappointed this trust.
I apologize sincerely to our customers and the regulatory agencies and the public for the misbehavior. Please believe me that we will do everything to undo the damage that was done. And we will do everything to win back your trust step by step.

In our corporation, more than 600,000 people work to build the best cars for our customers. And talking directly to our employees, I am saying, I know how much effort and great, true sincerity you do your jobs day in and day out. It is clear to me that now much will be questioned now. I understand that.

But it would be false, if because of the terrible mistakes of a few, the hard and honest work of 600,000 people is put under a general mistrust. Our team does not deserve that.
That’s why we ask – I ask – for your trust in our way forward. We will uncover this.
We are working intensively in necessary technical solutions and we will do everything to undo damages done to our customers and employees.

I give you my word.

We will proceed with the highest possible openness and transparency.


...I guarentee not one owner gave NoX levels a single thought when they purchased a car.

You guarantee that not one owner considered the NOx emission levels of a car at time of purchase? That's a strong guarantee. I can't speak for the other ten million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine people who have had their vehicles effected by the emissions issue but I can speak for myself and say I did consider it and I am one owner so this nullifies your guarantee. It's highly doubtful that out of eleven million people I am the only one who considered the emissions (including NOx levels) before purchasing the vehicle. In most counties the emission levels of cars determines the tax bracket of the car and the resulting annual tax needed to be paid by the owner. Running costs which include motor tax is a large part of what impacts peoples decision to buy or not buy a particular model of car so I believe it would be fair to say that people certainly do consider the emission levels (which includes NOx levels) during the process of deciding on the purchase of a new vehicle. Low emissions is one of the key points that car manufacturers use to promote the vehicles they sell. You may be surprised to hear that there is also the possibility that people consider the emissions of a potential new car for environmental concern reasons. This is also a large part of why people choose electric or hybrid vehicles and governments have grants and other incentives available for purchasers of electric or hybrid vehicles.
Volkswagen put a large amount of time and money into an advertising campaign to change the public perception of vehicles with diesel engines being "dirty". Volkswagen would not have have made the investment in this ad campaign if the truth was that nobody cared or considered about the cleanliness or emissions level of the cars they were buying. (Volkswagen are currently being sued in the U.S.A. by the Federal Trade Commission for fifteen billion in relation to this ad campaign).

If you haven't done so already I'd recommend watching episode one (Hard NOx) of the Netflix documentary series Dirty Money. It covers the Volkswagen emissions scandal and gives interesting insight to it.

Offline mcmaddy

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #18 on: 25 February 2018, 11:52 »
No thanks. The UK recall was to placate the beurocrats who don't seem to have a clue. The update was optional not mandatory because as I've said previously we in the UK don't measure NoX levels on an MOT. The fact you are on a co.uk website lead me to believe you were in the UK which was my mistake although if you'd put your location on your profile then everyone would know where you were in the world. The fact VAG are the only car company in murica to be guilty of this does make me wonder if they've been made a scapegoat for everyone else. I mean murica pulled out of the Kyoto agreement and basically said they weren't going to reduce emissions levels full stop. Everyone else in the world recognises that we have a problem apart from Trumptown so it's rather ironic that a car company is fined for emissions cheating (not in the UK by the way) when murica couldn't give a sh!t.
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Offline JHWP

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Re: 23W6 Field Measure/Recall
« Reply #19 on: 25 February 2018, 21:17 »
No thanks.

I am not sure why you would choose not to watch episode one of Dirty Money as I mentioned. Regardless of your opinion on the emissions scandal, it is an interesting and very well-made documentary that takes a detailed look at the topic. The whole series which includes six episodes in total is certainly worth watching. It currently has a score of 100% on Rotten Tomatoes and has received very positive reviews elsewhere. One of the executive producers of the series includes Oscar winner Alex Gibney. He directed the Hard NOx episode. Watch it or don't watch it but don't not watch it just because I suggested watching it.

The UK recall was to placate the beurocrats who don't seem to have a clue.

Is this really the reason for it? You don't think it was done for environmental reasons? What about lowering the emissions levels that were far higher than that permitted by E.U. regulations to improve the quality of the air that people breath? Do you not think that members of the public whether or not they are Volkswagen owners, cared that these particular Volkswagen vehicles (pre-emission fix/update) were emitting a large amount more pollutants than the maximum of what is permitted?

The update was optional not mandatory because as I've said previously we in the UK don't measure NoX levels on an MOT.

As I have also said previously; NOx levels are tested within E.U. emissions tests. If a particular vehicle is to be sold in the U.K., it is required to pass the test of the relevant E.U. standard. NOx levels are tested for all models of vehicles sold within the E.U., including the U.K. This is a fact. Whether or not an individual country within the E.U. does or does not separately test for NOx levels such as within the MOT test in the U.K. does not change this fact.

The fact you are on a co.uk website lead me to believe you were in the UK which was my mistake

Are all members of this forum (apart from me) from the U.K. because it has a U.K. domain?

if you'd put your location on your profile then everyone would know where you were in the world.

You are right. I have now done this.

The fact VAG are the only car company in murica to be guilty of this does make me wonder if they've been made a scapegoat for everyone else.

There is a possibility of some truth related to this but all of the other manufacturers would have to have met the same emission standards as Volkswagen and to date it would seem that they have been able to do this but without the requirement for any type of cheat device, unlike Volkswagen.