Author Topic: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?  (Read 30454 times)

Offline dom

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #10 on: 19 September 2011, 18:15 »
I will try and get a AUM to borrow and load it with a Revo trial map and test all the valves (brand new) back to back with dyno logs.

Here are Wellys tests with the valves on an K04-023.

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/101557-n75j-n75c-mbc-comparison-graphs.html


That'd be interesting to see, however will the effects of the 'J' valve be determined to an extent upon the map?

Offline RTechUK

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #11 on: 19 September 2011, 18:28 »


That'd be interesting to see, however will the effects of the 'J' valve be determined to an extent upon the map?
[/quote]


I think the logs will help show whats going on,  I will try a few maps, Stock , R-Tech, Revo and a basic unknow generic map. 

Yet more play time to come.. :smiley:
« Last Edit: 20 September 2011, 08:57 by RTechUK »



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Offline F17BAD

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #12 on: 19 September 2011, 20:12 »
The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.





Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags

my S3 AMK K04 lump comes with a F and i called Audi, yep its standard but old and now  been superseded with the J valve

  


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Offline RTechUK

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #13 on: 19 September 2011, 21:14 »
The AMKs using the E as a upgrade revision could also be running another ECU code as a few of the AMK maps have a high N75 PID I in the midrange which if fitted with the J could cause an over shoot in the stock mapping, this is on the ECU HW with 018J.



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Offline The Doc

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #14 on: 19 September 2011, 21:40 »
Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags

Subtle as ever eh Brad  :grin:

Quote of the month for me - thank you

Offline The Doc

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #15 on: 19 September 2011, 22:47 »
IMO I can see no reason spending £90 on a valve which has no real gains over the OEM unit?  Going back over the year on forums there have been many members whos have fitted the J H K vavles and resorted going back to the oem revision.  The old stock OEM valve is adjustable and a slight tweak could take out a dyno plot flat spot saving £90. 


Maybe Carbon Chiptuning could share there findings and explain the reason for spending and extra £90 on the J valve to complement there stage 1 remap? And maybe some rolling road graphs back to back of the Carbon stage1 map which is the map set for the N75J valve vs the stock C F or E valves.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=202251.msg1883339#msg1883339

Roger that, IMHO the AUM with N75J / 007p is one of Nick @ CARBONs signature remaps 

If you have been doing the testing then your input, graph and logs will really help this thread out a lot so members can get there head around this and not waste £90.

The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.
Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags
my S3 AMK K04 lump comes with a F and i called Audi, yep its standard but old and now  been superseded with the J valve
Not a bag of balls.... when you read your post back. :grin:

The C F E characteristics are for a smallers turbo like the ko3, the H J K have the correct design characteristics for a slower K04 turbo..

I never mention standard fitment so please go back and read my post. Now work out why your AMK had the F then went to a J? maybe its the correct valve characteristics for your K04 and audi changed it to J for good reason?

And why non of the ko3 engines AGU ARZ AUM AUQ have come off the C F or E valve and opted for the H J or K??   or why the Golf revision went from F to E not J???   

Infact on the technical VAG docs I have the upgrade for the AMK is the 06A906283E? but some systems state J?


 


The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.

Edit H J K designed for bigger turbos such as the ko4 not just the ko4, and C F E smaller quicker spooling turbos or OEM aplication which offer a lower output)

Fitting a H J K valve to a k03  turbo and ecu will induce a turbo faster spool and more over boost in the mid range, but the ecu soon adapts and pulls the boost back in to line which can be seen on the N75 logs.  The H J K valves will reduce the power at the top end againback to back you can see the n75dc working harder to maintain boost.  Its the feeling of a kick which the H J K valves give the smaller turbo which makes ther driver feel like the car is faster, but at the end of the day the average power it about the same, in some cases lower.  The ecu is designed to meet load/boost once this load has been meet the ecu will cut the boost back via boost controller PIDS, which are there to stop boost over/under shoot oscillations (not an easy ecu to fool)

For all of you who want to understand boost pids here is a copy of a wiki page for me7 tuning. 

(Just to note the PID I is  what  I use to give the car the kick of boost or linear boost depending on the mapping and customers needs)


Boost PID
If your actual boost is not meeting requested boost, you may have to increase the PID I limit between 2250 and 5000 RPM for 850 and 1000mBar:

KFLDIMX - LDR I-Regulator limit
To go along with KFTARX above, there is another IAT correction that ME7.1 uses to allow the PID to add waste-gate duty cycle at elevated IATs. You may want to zero it all out:

LDIATA - LDR I-Regulator limit as a function of IAT
If you aren't using K03s, you may have to tweak the PID response. Note: this is NOT used to adjust requested boost. It is used to compensate for different waste-gate responses.

KFLDRL - Map for linearization of boost pressure = f(TV). This is the post-PID waste-gate duty correction table.
LDRQ0S - LDR PID Q0 in static operation (proportional term)
LDRQ1ST - LDR PID Q1 in static operation (integral term)
KFLDRQ2 - LDR PID Q2 (differential term)
KFLDRL can also be used to get open-loop type behavior for operation past the MAP and requested boost limit by making the output duty cycle unresponsive (flat) to uncorrected duty cycle (from the PID) at various RPM/DC points. Again, if you do this, make sure to leave DSLOFS at the stock value! This way, requested boost will always be higher than measured boost, and you will stay in open loop control.

With after market or external waste-gates flat line the map at something like 25% until your turbo should be spooled and then taper off to 10% at areas if higher load and RPM. Log requested vs. actual boost to see where you need to adjust KFLDRL to line things up. The higher your after market waste-gate spring pre-load the lower the WGDC you will need to accurately control boost.

If you don't get all of this just right, and your actual boost goes too far above requested boost (by ~200mBar), you may experience overboost throttle cut, which is ME attempting to get boost back under control by temporarily closing the throttle plate.

Alternately, if your requested boost is far too high for a given load/rpm point, you may experience positive deviation (underboost) limp mode.


Many hours go into getting the boost pids correct.

IMO £90 for a valve to give that feeling is a waste of money, as its only a 5 min job to change the boost PIDs in the mapping to give the same effect and actually make more average power with out tailing off at the top end.




 :wink:

Offline The Doc

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #16 on: 19 September 2011, 22:56 »
Maybe Carbon Chiptuning could share there findings and explain the reason for spending and extra £90 on the J valve to complement there stage 1 remap? And maybe some rolling road graphs back to back of the Carbon stage1 map which is the map set for the N75J valve vs the stock C F or E valves.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=202251.msg1883339#msg1883339

Roger that, IMHO the AUM with N75J / 007p is one of Nick @ CARBONs signature remaps 

If you have been doing the testing then your input, graph and logs will really help this thread out a lot so members can get there head around this and not waste £90.

I think not, Feeding information about our product and how it operates to open forums isn't how we work.

So lets carry on without the need to bring CARBON into this, if we wish to pipe up we will :smiley:

Offline Chris.

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #17 on: 19 September 2011, 23:47 »
Cant see how the remap settings for the boost could differ really?  If the map is exactly the same and hasnt been changed, then the boost logs pretty much speak for themselves IMHO.  The fact that the J valve is slower so the ECU allows the turbo to effectively overboost more thus 'feel' faster

Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.

Afterall - VW wouldnt have superceeded something that worked how they wanted it would they?

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Offline RTechUK

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #18 on: 19 September 2011, 23:54 »
Cant see how the remap settings for the boost could differ really?  If the map is exactly the same and hasnt been changed, then the boost logs pretty much speak for themselves IMHO.  The fact that the J valve is slower so the ECU allows the turbo to effectively overboost more thus 'feel' faster

Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.

Afterall - VW wouldnt have superceeded something that worked how they wanted it would they?

Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.

No maps for each valves just DC boost pids for reaction control not valve characteristics.

Only pulse width from the ecu which uses the same digital to analogue driver, like you say the valves are on there own merits based on the coil windings, and adjustments in a simlar was as hair clippers work. 
Which means the over shoot will be relevant to all tuners maps.

(updates on page one)
« Last Edit: 20 September 2011, 09:01 by RTechUK »



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Offline Len

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Re: n75 J valve a bit of a mith ?
« Reply #19 on: 20 September 2011, 13:31 »
Well after my trip to Rtech, Nick recommended replacing the N75 valve in my Passat.
I duly did so.
But getting the right part out of the VW Dealer was a bit of an exercise!
The impression I got was that the old numbers had been superceded and the new suffixes just depended on which make the car was!
J = Seat, H = VW , K = Audi

Because I asked for a J and was told that was for Seat only and if you really wanted one you will have to go to a Seat dealer!
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