Author Topic: INFO 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread **Updated**  (Read 24890 times)

Offline bored_Welsh_lad

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INFO 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread **Updated**
« on: 03 January 2009, 14:56 »
Please input all the information you find/ have/ links etc in this thread.. i will try to keep the first post as clean as possible with updated information that we find... please try not to fill the thread full of crap or ill have to ask the mods to delete posts... sorry to sound harsh..

8V

Supercharging a tall block
Supercharging



16V

Shopping list:-
Eaton charger (M45 = 1.8 kr   m62/90 = 2.0 abf)
Megasquirt
Intercooler & pipe work
2xABF gaskets to lower compression
20vt right side inlet and KR 42mm lower inlet welded together
Charger bracket and belts


DV's/BOV's
That car uses two DV's, that sorted out the blowing off pipes thing as well as fixing a few other issues.
My mk3 daily will be testing another setup which I hope will cut eaton whin and will have a diff air bleed off system.RR With loads of DV Noise

Build Threads
Whining Roots Build
Lupo Charged Build
Sc0rians Build
Boxmans Mk3 8v Build
N7ndo's Build Thread 1
N7ndo's Build Thread 2
Track Taxi 16v Build

General Information

e45 on std pulley on 8v 2ltr gti makes 5psi to 5krpm then as the engine cant flow more after that boost climbes to 8-10psi.

intercooler inlet just on cruising is physically hot to touch.

Max speed on the M45 is 16000 rpm at which point it's flowing ~350cfm

Eaton's engineering drawing and performance map are here http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc...eId=Eaton Com

@15550 r/min it is chucking in a lot of heat and requiring a lot of torque to drive itsself. With that charger on an 8v, you would get a turbo diesel like drive providing you can gear it right and can control the low down time to torque via the ECU. Tricky enough on a 16v... 1H cam may help in trapping the airflow higher up the rev range.
Use the generic Eaton compressor map as a guide. OEM compressors from Mini Cooper S, Works and Merc W203 differ slighty introducing unknowns.

I would not expect an 8v on STD parts to have high measured hp as seen in 16v varients as the engine will start to restrict the charger air flow post 5000 rpm leading to boost rise in the manifold plenum. I would expect the torque at 5-6psi on an typical M45 appclication to be around 190-210lbft as this is what it tends to be on a 16v unit with a similar charger/levels of boost/rpm, just that in 16v motors, it will hang in there for longer. So I thought that the 2.0 8v peak torque figure is good but made be part of a diesel like torque curve.

On an 8v engine using an Eaton M45 supercharger, at 5psi you should be OK on a STD engine pending a good calibration, but on 10psi you will need to reduce the CR if you are to continue optimising torque as MBT will be det limited. They are heavily det limited around 1800-2500rpm when N/A, so with increased cylinder pressures from boosting this would only worsen. I have actually done this back to back. Same done on a 16v (16vs maintain 6psi on the the STD Merc M45) when we were trying to see what we could get away with. All engines use an air to air FMIC.

The best layout for the charger setup



A few months ago, n7ndo and TOYOTEC went through the above design after benchmarking many OEM applications such as the Mini, Toyota Levin AE92 4AGZE, and W203 180 to 230K.
From experience your application would benefit from lower induction noise and improved tranisent response to maximum torque.

BBM CHARGER SETUP





BADGER 5's CHARGER SETUP


It has been dyno'd on 174bhp, and 170lbft torque, but has the odd annoying flatspot which just gets on ya nerves..


« Last Edit: 18 October 2009, 12:24 by boneybradley »
Mk3 Golf Gti:Full Milltek system and Decat,K&N filter,mk2 Cam,-1.5 degree camber shims, borbet a's, toyo proxies,hot tuning coils, brembo vented discs, greenstuff pads...Soon to have Eaton Power

mk3 16v 5dr Gti,mintex extreme pads,drilled/grooved discs,lowered,cat back powerflow system,omp panel filter with modified airbox,debadged grill, started prep for spraying, lots to come :D

Bumper Vents :D

Offline boneybradley

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #1 on: 03 January 2009, 15:40 »
i've stuck it for you dicky........

and yeah i will keep the thread uncluttered.... :evil:  :smug:
Moderator of The Dub-Tug Squad!! (What some call the MK3 section!)



Full range of quality parts for your Volkswagen available at Oemandmore.co.uk

Offline Neo Badness

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #2 on: 03 January 2009, 16:01 »
Good work, here's what I've found so far....

http://www.stormdevelopments.co.uk/diy-style.html


http://www.stealthracing.co.uk

Jabbasport apparently done them in the past

http://www.jabbasport.com

www.jdengineering.nl

http://forum.performancevwmag.com/viewtopic.php?t=44318&sid=0de84ffd914b0a7c0018c3615cac8622

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rp-SAcV-Xk

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWTK-EuilU&feature=related



http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=135437&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186618&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=50469&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196251&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=196966&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=194983&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=114223&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90315&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=188174&hl=eaton

http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29506&hl=eaton

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178077

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180736&highlight=eaton

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=152329&highlight=eaton

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=176697&highlight=eaton

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173322&highlight=eaton

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169513&highlight=eaton

http://www.dubforce.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15954&st=0&gopid=109486&#entry109486

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2521071

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/about/15/G60_G_Lader_16V_Supercharged

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-4831.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's fair amount of info on turbo app's if you're that way inclined as I'm having a rummage online at the mo.

http://membres.lycos.fr/philippe840/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=44&forum=7&10

www.rothe-motorsport.de

http://www.stealthracing.co.uk 
 
 
« Last Edit: 03 July 2010, 16:43 by Neo Badness »

You don't own a Mk2, you support it.

Offline Chris-White

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #3 on: 05 January 2009, 01:40 »
This thread:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1784212

is great for 16v g60 options. Theres some yank set ups making good power from relatively simple builds too  :cool:
S4 Avant. Eibach springs. 18" Avus. RS4 Intercoolers. Viper Tuned. Goes Fast.

Offline jamie16v

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #4 on: 22 March 2009, 19:59 »
i think you will love this very useful info...
http://www.daham.org/16vt/technical/vw16vt/
AGU ecu loom connector wanted

Offline bored_Welsh_lad

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #5 on: 19 August 2009, 12:00 »
What is a Wideband O2 sensor

It is an Oxygen Sensor that gives stable output over a much larger range than standard 1-wire or 4-wire oxygen sensors. It is helpful in determining the Air Fuel Ratio for Ecu Tuning.

The market just got a little more competitive, I'm going to do a quick summary. Traditionally you had two options for a wideband/lambda O2 meter. These were the MOTEC unit and the FJO offering. These can cost you $600-1000 and up, so I'll be focusing on cheaper solutions.

The new Bosch LSU4 is a windfall to the community because it is OEM equipment on some VWs and can be had for between 30 and 60 dollars. Previously your options were generally the NGK L1H1 and the older BOSCH UEGO sensor (LSM-11?)

What is a narrowband output?

Narrowband is what your stock O2 sensor is giving you, it is of the range 0-1volts, so there is not very much room for resolution or "accuracy." Also it was engineered to save costs, and really only tells you if you are above or at stoich (14.7:1 A/F). This is not accurate enough for tuning.



What is a wideband output?

A more complicated 02 sensor element is used, and it can give you more usable resolution, from 0-5 volts. It was also engineered to be accurate, re-calibrateably on the fly, and with less emphasis on making a mass-produced economical unit. A wideband needs a special circuit and power source to control it's delicate heating needs. This is the "wideband controller", or controller box, that you see advertized.



How can I make use of this?

I see two main options.

Have a bung tapped into your downpipe for a second permanent O2 sensor mount. If you are planning on running the unit in the car full time. Have the ecu running off the stock O2 sensors narrowband output, and do tuning via your dedicated wideband O2 sensor and controlling unit. Once tuned, you can remove the wideband O2 sensor, and use a plug to seal the bung.

The second method is more complicated, but it is more desirable for someone like myself that uses the wideband portably to tune different cars. You remove the stock O2 sensor unit, and put the wideband sensor in it's place. Then you feed a narrowband output off of your wideband O2 sensor controller to satisfy the ecu. (The narrowband output off the wideband controller, is just the wideband info scaled down to 0-1volts.) For ease of instalation, you can have an OBD1 -OBD1 "conversion/crossover" harness, instead of splicing into the customer chassis harness. Academically there may be a problem here, because when you are done tuning, and return the car to running off of the stock narrowband sensor, there might be slight inconsistencies. More research/opinion is needed on this.
Mk3 Golf Gti:Full Milltek system and Decat,K&N filter,mk2 Cam,-1.5 degree camber shims, borbet a's, toyo proxies,hot tuning coils, brembo vented discs, greenstuff pads...Soon to have Eaton Power

mk3 16v 5dr Gti,mintex extreme pads,drilled/grooved discs,lowered,cat back powerflow system,omp panel filter with modified airbox,debadged grill, started prep for spraying, lots to come :D

Bumper Vents :D

Offline bored_Welsh_lad

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread
« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2009, 12:01 »
Deluded WE break very few street engines with these tuning parameters:

* less than 10psi: 12:1 Air Fuel Ratio
* up to 16psi: 11:1 Air Fuel Ratio
* 9.5:1 compression or less: 1 degree retard/#boost
* above 9.5:1 compression at least 1.25 degrees per psi

12.5 AFR from 0psi to 3psi. retard 0.25 degrees cumulative by 3psi (i.e. 0.08 degrees/psi)
12.25 AFR from 3psi to 5psi. retard 0.75 degrees cumulative by 5psi (i.e. 0.25 degrees/psi)
12.0 AFR from 5psi to 7psi. retard timing 1.75 degrees cumulative by 7psi (0.5 degrees/psi)

The gradual increase of retard is called a "step-retard." The step retard is designed to retard the timing when it is needed (high boost) and leave you with as much advance as possible when you don't to spool the turbo and get overall better performance. (low boost) BE CAREFUL. The key to a good step retard is to figure out where you want your FINAL timing to be, and work backwards from there.

AFRs get richer as boost climbs because fuel acts to cool combustible charge, makes for safer motor at expense of power production. The saying "lean is mean" applies here too - generally you'll make more power from the leaner AFRs at the expense of EGTs, detonation danger, etc. Run the higher AFRs while you can and gradually drop them as the motor needs it. Motors rarely like sudden changes in anything, and AFR is no exception."

"Tip in" is what happens when you open the throttle to begin accelerating. The manifold pressure drop is too fast for the ECU to accurately compensate, so it adjusts it by dumping in a set amount per %TPS change.
Mk3 Golf Gti:Full Milltek system and Decat,K&N filter,mk2 Cam,-1.5 degree camber shims, borbet a's, toyo proxies,hot tuning coils, brembo vented discs, greenstuff pads...Soon to have Eaton Power

mk3 16v 5dr Gti,mintex extreme pads,drilled/grooved discs,lowered,cat back powerflow system,omp panel filter with modified airbox,debadged grill, started prep for spraying, lots to come :D

Bumper Vents :D

Offline WYATT

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread **Updated**
« Reply #7 on: 19 September 2009, 20:03 »
Wow what a lot of information that thread on vortex is great, just wondering if you did run this on a 16v ABF would the standard inside's be alrite ? even with just a light rebuild of new rings/bearings/shells? what sort of price does this cost is it just mega money i've seen the chargers are like £800 for just that doesnt included anything like the tensioner or the brackets,

All dependant on the pressure but then again is there any point in fitting it with low pressure after spending loads wouldnt it be best to go all out and have the comfort of toping everything out to go all out ?!

Joe
« Last Edit: 19 September 2009, 20:05 by WYATT »

Offline bored_Welsh_lad

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread **Updated**
« Reply #8 on: 18 October 2009, 09:55 »
Wow what a lot of information that thread on vortex is great, just wondering if you did run this on a 16v ABF would the standard inside's be alrite ? even with just a light rebuild of new rings/bearings/shells? what sort of price does this cost is it just mega money i've seen the chargers are like £800 for just that doesnt included anything like the tensioner or the brackets,

All dependant on the pressure but then again is there any point in fitting it with low pressure after spending loads wouldnt it be best to go all out and have the comfort of toping everything out to go all out ?!

Joe

theres a guy running a 16vT  on cgti... check the thread below.. but anyways.. standard internals are fine as long as you have looked after the engine and if you do look at running high boost levels (above 5psi) you will need to stack...

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=200635

From a brackets point of view i would say if your not good at making stuff yourself then drop nando on edition38 a message and he will sort you out, hes made loads of valver brackets...

cost wise it depends on how much you can do yourself..
Mk3 Golf Gti:Full Milltek system and Decat,K&N filter,mk2 Cam,-1.5 degree camber shims, borbet a's, toyo proxies,hot tuning coils, brembo vented discs, greenstuff pads...Soon to have Eaton Power

mk3 16v 5dr Gti,mintex extreme pads,drilled/grooved discs,lowered,cat back powerflow system,omp panel filter with modified airbox,debadged grill, started prep for spraying, lots to come :D

Bumper Vents :D

Offline Neo Badness

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Re: 8V and 16V Supercharged Thread **Updated**
« Reply #9 on: 18 October 2009, 12:19 »
In regards to a boosted 16v, I've been reading this site, found it quiet interesting/ informative so far....

http://www.turbo-conversion.com/

You don't own a Mk2, you support it.