GolfGTIforum.co.uk

Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: sjw on 14 September 2020, 18:02

Title: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 14 September 2020, 18:02
That time has come to get new tyres. I currently have Pirelli P Zeros. I was all prepared to shell out for PS4Ss, until I realised that:

1) My wheels (19" Brescia) really need refurbing
2) The 18 inch PS4s are much cheaper per corner

So the way I see it I have a few options:

1) Refurb the DC wheels, and get PS4Ss. Trouble is, the diamond coat will likely just go again - I don't rate it at all.
2) Powder coat the DC wheels, and get PS4Ss. Problem - the wheels aren't then in their original finish - may hurt at trade-in. (Might not though, I'm unlikely to go VW again at this point)
3) Get new 18" wheels, and then fit them with PS4s. Issue here is that there is greater up-front cost, plus I will still have to get the Brescias refurbed at some point, and the PS4s aren't as good as the PS4Ss.

Also, maybe there's a better tyre to look at? I've heard that the PS4Ss are supposed to be a phenomenal tyre in terms of wet grip, and with my current P Zeros, I'm finding the tyres slip if I even look at the throttle in any weather (probably largely down to low tread when it comes to dry weather)

What would you guys do?
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Watts on 14 September 2020, 18:18
I'd get the Brescias refurbed and PS4S. I went from P-Zeros to PS4S and found them a big improvement. More comfortable, quieter (except for the concrete sections of the M25 where they had a bad drone) and the grip in all conditions was far superior. Much better rim protection too. From what you've said you'll be trading the car in at some point so chances are a refurb will be fine until then and you'll have the original wheels fitted, no-one will expect a car a few years old to have perfect wheels but will expect oem.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 14 September 2020, 18:25
I'd get the Brescias refurbed and PS4S. I went from P-Zeros to PS4S and found them a big improvement. More comfortable, quieter (except for the concrete sections of the M25 where they had a bad drone) and the grip in all conditions was far superior. Much better rim protection too. From what you've said you'll be trading the car in at some point so chances are a refurb will be fine until then and you'll have the original wheels fitted, no-one will expect a car a few years old to have perfect wheels but will expect oem.

The white worm is the big issue with diamond cut wheels, obviously. I have some where I've curbed the wheel (idiot), but some just randomly in the middle, a stone chip maybe. I just CBA with that happening again. I've heard the rim protection is much better though, so that will hopefully mitigate that.

Probably option 1 is the best, as I don't intend to keep the car forever. If I do keep it, maybe I'll get new wheels then, but perhaps a refurb is the way to go for now.

Would be interested to hear other opinions though
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: SRGTD on 14 September 2020, 18:54
If you go with option 1, get the wheel refurb place you use to fit your new tyres. They’ll have lots of experience in fitting tyres to newly refurbished wheels, so shouldn’t damage your wheels in the process. If they did happen to damage them, then it’ll be down to them to rectify the damage.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: My other womans a vw. on 14 September 2020, 19:04
My standard wheels (Parker) look great at the moment,but I know they won’t last.
When the inevitable happens,i’ll get them powder coated,probably anthracite or shadow chrome.
I also got a bargain set of Cadiz off an R with 600 miles on it (the owner didn’t like them) for my winter wheels,i’ll do the same with those.
Diamond cut wheels just don’t last long enough and is it right that you can only refurb them twice?-that’s no good,if you intend to keep your car for years.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: SRGTD on 14 September 2020, 19:12
Diamond cut wheels just don’t last long enough and is it right that you can only refurb them twice?-that’s no good,if you intend to keep your car for years.
Yes, usually they can’t be refurbished more than twice. It’s because the refurb process involves re-cutting the face of the wheel, which removes a layer of metal. More than two refurbs and there’s a chance the structural integrity of the wheel might be compromised as too much metal may have been removed.

That’s why it’s very important when buying used diamond cut alloys to check how many times they’ve been refurbished, so you know how many ‘lives’ they’ve got left.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Watts on 14 September 2020, 19:22
Diamond cut wheels just don’t last long enough

I think local conditions make a big difference. My Santiagos were almost 5 years old on my last car and had no whiteworm at all.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Guzzle on 14 September 2020, 19:29
In my experience diamond cut wheels are fine in the summer, it's the winter conditions that does them in. The wheels on my Octavia were flawless when i gave it back after 2.5 years. I did take them off though and run winters for 4 months of the year.

By contrast one of the wheels on my Golf has a scratch and a stone chip that happened over the past winter, as I didn't bother swapping them over for the first time in about 5 years.  :angry:
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 14 September 2020, 20:37
You can't buy ps4s's in eighteen inch in the UK. You can only get ps4.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: SRGTD on 14 September 2020, 20:53
In my experience diamond cut wheels are fine in the summer, it's the winter conditions that does them in. The wheels on my Octavia were flawless when i gave it back after 2.5 years. I did take them off though and run winters for 4 months of the year.

By contrast one of the wheels on my Golf has a scratch and a stone chip that happened over the past winter, as I didn't bother swapping them over for the first time in about 5 years.  :angry:

Some aftermarket alloy wheel websites specifically state either that diamond cut alloys are for summer use or they’re not recommended for winter use.

When I had diamond cut alloys on previous cars, I always used to check them over carefully each time I washed the car (every 10-14 days), and if there were any stone chips in the lacquer, I’d touch it in with clear lacquer to seal / protect against water getting under the lacquer where the stone chip had been. On my mk6 Golf GTD, in spite of doing this, and regularly sealing and waxing the wheels against the elements, two of the wheels still succumbed to white worm corrosion at around 2.5 years - around the centre caps. And I live in a part of the UK where winters are relatively mild compared to some other parts of the UK, so probably less corrosive salt and grit spread on the roads.

A polished / diamond cut surface doesn’t provide the best ‘key’ for the lacquer / clear coat to adhere to, so a high proportion of these wheels will probably suffer from white worm 2-3 years from new when water gets under the lacquer through a small area of damage like a stone chip. Given the choice, I’d never choose diamond cut alloys, because of the generally poor durability of the diamond cut, lacquered finish compared to a painted or powder coated finish.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Ceefeesh on 14 September 2020, 20:58
You can't buy ps4s's in eighteen inch in the UK. You can only get ps4.
I know where there are a set of PS4Ss 225 x18 x 40 with a claimed 100 miles on them For sale for £350. I am told they were on a Focus RS? Sound right? .
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 14 September 2020, 22:23
You can seemingly get 235 40 r18 but not 225.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Ceefeesh on 15 September 2020, 05:16
They were definitely Pilot Sport 4Ss as I had a look on line after ai saw them to see the cost when new. I thought they were 225s but I may be mistaken. For sure they were 18” x 40.  I must check their width next time I am in if they are still there. I wondered if they were “old stock” and whether they were a bargain. It was about two weeks ago.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: dubber36 on 15 September 2020, 09:02
I'd buy a new set of aftermarket 18" painted wheels with PS4s. Keep your original wheels in the shed ready to refit at trade in time. Dealers expect px's to come in with slightly damaged wheels, so any possible reduction in value won't come close to the cost of a refurb.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: monkeyhanger on 15 September 2020, 10:15
You can seemingly get 235 40 r18 but not 225.

Correct. I tried to get 4S in 225 width for our Polo GTI. Costco confirmed that you can get PS4 but not PS4S in 225/40 R18.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 15 September 2020, 10:37
You can seemingly get 235 40 r18 but not 225.

Correct. I tried to get 4S in 225 width for our Polo GTI. Costco confirmed that you can get PS4 but not PS4S in 225/40 R18.

Yes, I have PS4 not PS4S on my GTD with 18's.

And I double checked the manufacturer website in case it had changed since then and before I wrote that yesterday too.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 13:29
Ok, new questions...

Anyone know of any good wheel refurb places in the Cambridge area?

Also, where is best to buy alloys? Presumably online somewhere? I know CMWheels is popular on here

Finally, what offset would fill the wheel arches most? The offset is never something I've been able to figure out, and I can never remember what the Brescia offset is

EDIT: One more question - if the PS4Ss are better than the P Zeros, but the PS4s are worse than the PS4Ss, am I going to notice any improvement from the 19" P Zeros to the 18" PS4s?

Damn Michelin and their confusing acronyms!
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Guzzle on 15 September 2020, 14:04
If you take a sectional view at 90 degrees to the outer face, through the wheel, offset is the distance between the centre line of the wheel and where it is mounted onto the hub. So the lower the offset, the smaller the gap between the centre of the wheel and the hub. Generally speaking, lowering the offset will push the outer face of the wheel further out and give the impression of the wheel arch being filled better. However, if you go too far and push the wheel face beyond the arches, not only will your car look daft, but it's probably an MOT fail too.

IIRC the factory Brescia's are ET49, so a higher offset would pull them inside the arches and a lower offset would push them further out. Don't forget to factor in any increase or decrease in wheel width if changing stock wheels for something else.

This is a popular calculator for working out this kind of thing;-

https://www.willtheyfit.com/

I think CM Wheels will only sell you their own products. If you want the more OEM stuff (Borbet, BBS etc) then you'll need to look elsewhere, such as Performance Alloys, Wheelbase etc (others are available).

What improvement in tyres are you looking for? Wet grip, dry grip, longevity, noise, fuel consumption?Improvements in one thing or more can lead to compromise elsewhere.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Gnasher on 15 September 2020, 14:11
As a rough guide though, if you get a 8.5" wide wheel, an offset of around 45mm will give you somewhere near a flush fitment.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 14:57
Ok thanks. I've been doing a quick bit of research in the meantime. I can see that I can get an 18" set of Pretoria reps from CMWheels for £440. If I then get 18" PS4s from Blackcircles, I can save £70 per tyre (fitted) on the PS4s compared to the 19" PS4Ss, plus an extra £40 off if I buy 4 (which obviously, I will!) That's a £320 saving, with a £440 pound outlay on wheels, so I'm looking at, effectively, £120 for 4 new wheels. Then I could sort the refurb of my Brescias at a later date.

In terms of what I'm looking to improve, it's mainly grip, especially in the wet, but mostly from a standstill in all conditions. I know you can't floor it in these FWD cars, but at the moment, it's ridiculous - I can only really start accelerating once I've reached a decent speed.

I gather longevity is supposed to be better on the Michelins than the Pirellis.

Besides the benifits of PS4s, I'm also interested in the fitment of these wheels. The Pretoria reps are 8*45ET, vs my Brescia at 7.5*51ET. willtheyfit.com says that the Prets will therefore be around 12mm wider, which sounds great with regards to filling the arches. However, the diagram looks like this:

(https://thumbsnap.com/i/ZVAkbuqM.gif)

I have read that the PS4s provide better rim protection than the Pirellis, but this diagram looks like it might be negated by the offset of the wheel. If this is the case, then I'd be more inclined to look at the 235*40 R18 PS4s, but these negate much of the cost savings I explained in my first paragraph!

What do you think?
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Gnasher on 15 September 2020, 15:16
The offset will have no impact on how much protection a tyre will give a rim as if the offset changes (moving the wheel in/out) the tyre will move with it, giving exactly the same amount of rubber protruding past the rim.

Also, 8" wide with an ET of 45mm will nicely fill the arches. If anyone was being picky and wanted a "flush fitment" like the cool kids have, you could add a 5mm spacer, but I reckon it'll look spot on without anyway.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 15:21
The offset will have no impact on how much protection a tyre will give a rim as if the offset changes (moving the wheel in/out) the tyre will move with it, giving exactly the same amount of rubber protruding past the rim.

I was just wondering as I'd be looking at a wider wheel with the same tyre, therefore it would be stretched more. I'm looking at the width, not the offset!  :laugh:

I figured it probably wouldn't matter, but on the diagram in my previous post you can kind of see the angle the tyre will be stretched at, and I wondered if that would negate the extra rim protection

Any input on the 19" P Zero vs 18" PS4 comparison?
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Guzzle on 15 September 2020, 15:35
It's not so much the change offset that is eroding the rim protection, more the extra width of the 8J rim meaning the inner edge of the tyre won't turn back in on itself as far as it would do with a 7.5J rim.

The lower offset will result in the outer edge of your wheels being slightly closer to kerbs and in theory have more chance of hitting them.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Gnasher on 15 September 2020, 15:42
The offset will have no impact on how much protection a tyre will give a rim as if the offset changes (moving the wheel in/out) the tyre will move with it, giving exactly the same amount of rubber protruding past the rim.

I was just wondering as I'd be looking at a wider wheel with the same tyre, therefore it would be stretched more. I'm looking at the width, not the offset!  :laugh:

I figured it probably wouldn't matter, but on the diagram in my previous post you can kind of see the angle the tyre will be stretched at, and I wondered if that would negate the extra rim protection

Any input on the 19" P Zero vs 18" PS4 comparison?

I assumed as I couldn't see the pic lol. Just checked and the recommended width for an 8" rim is either 225 or 235 depending where you look so the protection should still be good. I'm running 235/35R19 Goodyear F1 Asymmetrics on my 8.5" wide rims and the rim protection is still pretty good on mine.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 16:25
When you look on Performance Alloys, some are really quite cheap, about £70 - £80 a corner. What makes them so cheap? Lower quality? Brand name?
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 15 September 2020, 16:28
Usually cheaper because they are cast and not flow formed or forged.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 16:41
Usually cheaper because they are cast and not flow formed or forged.

And what is the problem with that? Weight/durability? I'm struggling to find a site that is easy to cross-shop wheels that lists their weights. I'm just looking for, ideally, something lighter than the Brescias, which I gather are rather heavy
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 15 September 2020, 17:02
Usually cheaper because they are cast and not flow formed or forged.

And what is the problem with that? Weight/durability? I'm struggling to find a site that is easy to cross-shop wheels that lists their weights. I'm just looking for, ideally, something lighter than the Brescias, which I gather are rather heavy

Yes

https://www.turnology.com/tech-stories/the-strength-difference-between-cast-flow-formed-and-forged-wheels/
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 17:47
Usually cheaper because they are cast and not flow formed or forged.

And what is the problem with that? Weight/durability? I'm struggling to find a site that is easy to cross-shop wheels that lists their weights. I'm just looking for, ideally, something lighter than the Brescias, which I gather are rather heavy

Yes

https://www.turnology.com/tech-stories/the-strength-difference-between-cast-flow-formed-and-forged-wheels/

So I'm guessing the CMWheels reps are cast? People seem to be happy with them, right?
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 15 September 2020, 17:52
cast 19's start to get real heavy... unsprung weight starts to work the suspension hard and the ride quality really degrades.

If you are going to look for 19's definitely really consider weight and look for robust shape unless they are forged. Flimsy cast 19's are gonna break, heavy cast 19's are going to make your ride terrible.

Personally, if going for third party 19's, light and forged and spend the money.
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: sjw on 15 September 2020, 19:15
I'm looking at 18s
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Exonian on 16 September 2020, 16:12
Black 8x18 Borbet FF1’s in 45mm offset sourced through Tyreleader.
Light, strong, OEM quality and looks.
Add Polo centre caps.
Use original bolt caps.
225/40/18 tyres, Goodyear or Michelin.
Bear in mind your wheel rims will be a few millimetres closer to the kerbs so just be careful.

Job done. 
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: fredgroves on 16 September 2020, 16:44
I'd agree with ^^^

Quote
Black 8x18 Borbet FF1’s in 45mm offset
Title: Re: New tyre time - wheel refurb? What to go for?
Post by: Ceefeesh on 16 September 2020, 17:11
You can seemingly get 235 40 r18 but not 225.

Hi Fred, I checked again. My bad. I obviously have a sketchy memory. The tyres were not Michelin PS4Ss but Michelin Pilot Super Sports 225 x 40 x 18 @ £350.