GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: The Dave on 16 February 2010, 19:59
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Hi guys.
My car is a 1999 VW Golf MK4 GTI, 1.8 20v turbo. AGU engine so ko3 turbo, engine wise it's mostly standard bar an APR stage one remap, platinum NGK plugs and a stealth subtle backbox.
Anyways, not long had a service, oil, air filter, coolant, new plugs etc.. car seems a lot more pokey when it comes on boost, feels much torquier. Lately with the damp weather, if I've been pressing on, it's been spinning up a bit in third gear with the sudden power increase! It has been accelerating well in all seriousness. But, today in 5th I overtook someone but put my foot down to get past fairly quickly without changing down and the revs flew up till I quickly let off the throttle. Now in third, fourth and fifth it does the same if it comes on boost fairly hard (I had to try, to make sure and of course quickly let off as soon as revs increased).
Long and short is definite clutch slip, so it's gonna need changing. Now I am not a mechanic, it would without a doubt be going to a garage to be fixed, but I'm after an idea of cost from people who may have had their clutch changed on such a car?
Also interested in what exactly is involved, i.e. a brief rundown of parts that'd need swapping. I'm assuming the Golfs use a dual mass flywheel (whatever it does technically I've no idea) - would this need replacement?
Does gearbox oil need draining etc with a clutch swap? And also will the clutch and brake fluid need draining? I wanted to get it all flushed soon anyway so may do this at the same time if neccessary?
Any recommendations of worthy garages within Stoke-on-Trent if anyones local? I was considering giving PSI tuning a call... I have my usual mechanic to ask too. Suppose I could always ask the local stealers too?
Thank you for any guideance, just wanna prepare my wallet for it, timing is terrible :( TAX, MOT due, just booked a holiday, then a borked clutch lol.
Cheers guys.
Dave
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Search for G60 / VR6..............
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I don't know much about it but have indeed heard it mentioned, I will search a bit.
I don't wanna make this a complex task though as I need my car daily and I want to bang all of the blame on a garage for parts and labour combined, I don't wanna buy any bits and have mechanics coming back at me with grief if stuff doesn't fit.
I don't mind the pedal feel at the moment so is their any real benefit to the above setup?
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it can take more power and you never have to replace the fly-wheel. it all fits perfect and is easy to source genuine VW parts with VW Part Numbers...
There's a guide in the MK4 maintenance section
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dave there is a guy in Hanley who charges £70 to fit the clutch if you get the bits!
ebay for a flywheel £50
fly wheel bolts £10
AVS for the vr6 clutch set up £100 http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=732
total £230 fitted
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I guess if I went to a specialist such as PSI, in theory you'd expect they'll have done this conversion a fair few times...
Need to get time to get up there to talk to someone really, work always gets in the way! :(
DarkGTI thats very cheap. Can you vouch for his work? I don't want anyone bodging my car up lol. 220 would be fine lol under 300 would be fine (so to speak!).
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dont take it psi they charge about 250 to fit! lol
the guy who i took mine to (the clutch man) has done many 1.8T single mass conversions including mine!
can meet up it you want? you can feel what the clutch feels like and drives like!
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i didnt even go to a VW specialist. i just went to a clutch specialist, they knew what i was on about straight away.
some people say you need to change the standard dual-mass fly-wheel when you replace the standard clutch. this will be in excess of £400 - £500 if i'm correct!
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Thats a lorra dollah. Sod that lol
Is that the guy who advertises in the sentinel (the clutch man) as I may lob him more dollah if he sources my bits to be honest, I just wanna lay the blame bang on to someone else, I don't mind paying a small premium, if it's under 300 quid I'm happy.
Could meet up, be nice to feel 240bhp aswell haha :) I hear they're a lot lighter with that clutch setup? :)
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i rang loads of places first some with silly quotes like £350 for fitting and then i remembered the was a clutch specialist across the road from me i didn't even have to explain myself he just knew!
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thats him dave in the sentinel the clutch man hes accross the road from me lol!
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Wicked that'd be ideal someone who knows exactly what they're on about as I don't want piss about, I just want it fixed, working and ready to abuse haha.
Does he have a proper garage etc? I will deffo give him a call mate. I shall say you recommended him aswell :) Maybe he'll gimme a discount lol
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it is a proper garage but nothing fancy, just a pit, tool boxes, jacks, etc, etc but ive had my clutch in for 1000 miles and no problems!!
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Aye the dirty places are the best lol sod looking fancy just do a good job for a good price :D
Will give the dude a bell mate, hopefully will be able get it sorted quickly before it strands me somewhere :)
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Vw only charge £200 for this upgrade fitting.
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Vw only charge £200 for this upgrade fitting.
Really? thats suprising! they wouldnt even bleed my R32 brakes incase anything went wrong lol
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when i rang VW they wouldn't do the single mass conversion!
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Will likely tell me the same then as it'd be Stoke VW I'd be trying as they're v. close to me...
Spose it's worth a giggle though see what rediculous price they quote lol
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does anyone know how much rtech charge for this?
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£550 supplied and fitted!
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will this cluth you posted link to be good for a 1.9tdi 150pd?
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will this cluth you posted link to be good for a 1.9tdi 150pd?
No
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more like £1000 for a uprated clutch for a derv!
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great so the money i save on fuel not having a petrol goes to the clutch lol :rolleyes:
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great so the money i save on fuel not having a petrol goes to the clutch lol :rolleyes:
just found this this is for my engine http://www.vwspares.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=525
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thanks
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£550 supplied and fitted!
thanks
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I deffo do not want be paying ANYWHERE near 550 quid lol.
Can anyone confirm how to tell if my flywheel needs replacing without taking everything to bits? I get no weird sounds, vibration or anything?
Also if I was to stick the proper 1.8T oem stuff in, again is sachs stuff good? Seen a clutch kit for 125 inc vat for example.
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just ditch the DMF, no real way of telling if it's knackered until you pull it out. I wouldn't go back now
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just ditch the DMF, no real way of telling if it's knackered until you pull it out. I wouldn't go back now
+1 :smiley:
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just ditch the DMF, no real way of telling if it's knackered until you pull it out. I wouldn't go back now
+1 :smiley:
+2
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What are the benefits of dual mass flywheels? Just wondering why they've become common place if they're a load of tosh?
I need to get some quotes under way, aint had time today works been madness, gonna be all week I bet :(
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What are the benefits of dual mass flywheels? Just wondering why they've become common place if they're a load of tosh?
I need to get some quotes under way, aint had time today works been madness, gonna be all week I bet :(
Its a comfort / vibration thing - less noise is transmitted into the cabin
Problem is the dampner within the DMF wears away over time so it rattles like fook
In an ideal world I'd have ditched the DMF when I upgraded my clutch but I'd have lost my teeth long ago :grin: :grin:
For the 1.8T the G60 / VR6 combo is the ONLY option - i've driven Rich's and the clutch is just silly light and very easy to operate :afro:
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Someone commented to me about the chances of increased vibration... any of you guys got anything to note?
I've got a polybush dog bone mount on mine which gives some vibration at tickover and low revs, so aslong as it's nothing worse.. i will deal with it lol. Ideally NO worse, but worth asking? :)
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Someone commented to me about the chances of increased vibration... any of you guys got anything to note?
I've got a polybush dog bone mount on mine which gives some vibration at tickover and low revs, so aslong as it's nothing worse.. i will deal with it lol. Ideally NO worse, but worth asking? :)
No vibration WHATSOEVER :cool:
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Someone commented to me about the chances of increased vibration... any of you guys got anything to note?
I've got a polybush dog bone mount on mine which gives some vibration at tickover and low revs, so aslong as it's nothing worse.. i will deal with it lol. Ideally NO worse, but worth asking? :)
No vibration WHATSOEVER :cool:
What Rich said - its BETTER THAN STANDARD!!
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Sounds like it's made of epic win dudes :D
Any of you chaps who've had it done at a garage able to gimme an idea of what you paid if you don't mind me asking? :)
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Sounds like it's made of epic win dudes :D
Any of you chaps who've had it done at a garage able to gimme an idea of what you paid if you don't mind me asking? :)
Labour for me was £160 IIRC :smiley:
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if it hasnt allready been posted....
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=87775.0
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Interesting read, cheers :) So not many bits needed in essense. I just need find somewhere reputable and cheap to do this lol.
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not using the clutch man dave?
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I anna foned him yet dude but if he quotes me happy he can have the work, I'd like him source the bits ideally so can lay 100% blame on him haha but if not then if he is dead cert on the bits I need I'll get them myself.
I'm good mates with the owner of SB Auto's in Burslem and he usually does all my work but I want someone on it who has done LOADS if poss lol.
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Aint done much else with this yet.
Can anyone recommend where to buy BRAND NEW bits from?
The clutch kit (vr6) is a safe bet @ 90 from AVS but what about a flywheel?
Had a quote from my mates mum who works at a small car parts place for 172 quid for conversion kit (flywheel and clutch!) which sounds very cheap and thus I need to go in and ask what make it all is, I don't want cheap sh!t, but I don't want any 2nd hand stuff either (plus I can't find any lol).
So if anyone has sources to try for new flywheels? Ta :)
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dave you can get the flywheel from the carrardo G60 or the mk3 golf 16v ABF search on ebay or ask at the local scrappy's!
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drive the car to newport south wales i will get it done via volkswagen sinclair for £200 and it only takes cozzy 3 hours. Mine was the 9th one he done and has been working for VW for 15 years and he won fitter of wales last year which is like winning the lottery in VW terms. lol at least u wont u know it will be done correctly.
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I went VW for a laugh earlier.. looking @ like 900 quid! Haha. Flywheel was 155 quid inc vat.
I've booked it in with a local dude called the clutchman as recommended by Ry, he's providing the bits.
G60 flywheel
VR6 clutch
New slave cylinder
£295 all in, so quite happy with that as then I can lay full blame on them lol. I am assuming it'll be using a relatively common valeo conversion kit for that price. My car is only running probably 190BHP tops, should imagine torque will be similar (KO3 with APR stage one map) and all I plan on doing furthermore is new TIP, recirc valve, poss downpipe and sports cat and maybe a catback exhaust so at the very very very best thats prob 200BHP max and similar torque, just better midrange, so should all be fine me hopes :)
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when's it booked in dave?
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Works always in the way so Monday the 8th March as early as I can so I can get it back quicker lol.
I've got my MOT booked in too for next thursday... I bloody hope it passes! Never had spend anywhere near this much on my old Corsa haha.
I would love a ko3s and more power but I just don't think it's even worth thinking about this year with the way cash is going :(
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i hate MOT time lol, if you do manage to source a ko3s then i'd fit it with you if you wanted to as its a really easy to do :lipsrsealed:
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If the car behaves for the rest of this year, it's definitely something I'd be looking into early next year, that and an r-tech remap and see how it does :) Be nice to have 220ish BHP, should imagine it'd be a lot quicker! But I'm too skint for it this year, missus banging on about holidays and all that crap nevermind my hours being dodgy at work lol.
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I assumed the dude would be using a valeo kit from euro car parts from how he described it, but I called up the other day to check and he says it's a transmech kit. I have been doing some reading and theres no way that sh!t is going in my car. Loads of failures, all the same, people posting pics the same.
http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=4600274
As per above.
I am going to call him and ask for a Valeo kit and agree to pay an extra 50, if he says no I will cancel the job as I am not trusting this Transmech lark. Googling it, regardless of car, they're prone to failure (the clutch in this case, not the flywheel).
I don't want to take the risk and for the sakes of saving a few quid it's not really worth it.
This is the kit from ECP which he's quoted on fitting and supplying for 295:
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Volkswagen_Golf_1.8_1999/p/Car-Parts/Transmission/Clutch-and-Associated-Parts/Solid-Flywheel-Conversions/?641780171&1&98815314c1286630e21acdfdfb6eef9bf451f5ab&SCON
And this is the valeo kit. Has anyone more info on the valeo kit? I've read somewhere it's an OEM G60 flywheel included???
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Volkswagen_Golf_1.8_1999/p/Car-Parts/Transmission/Clutch-and-Associated-Parts/Solid-Flywheel-Conversions/?641780170&1&260eebea186d6531ac953142ee771e31ae2b5db8&SCON
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why dont you just buy the sachs VR6 clutch from AVS dave then find a flywheel?
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I'm tempted to, to be honest mate as I don't want unreliable stuff going on... I want brand new bits though so if I go proper G60 fly, sachs clutch, bolts, talking bang on 250 quid on bits. But a few peeps have told me to get the slave cylinder changed, and the clutchman chap quoted on this as part of the price.
I dunno how you got 70 quid labour outta him as in theory (if he's buying from euro car parts) he's charging double for me lol.
Or there the valeo kit for 218 quid... and a few forum peeps on seat forums I've found say it's a G60 fly... but obviously what people say and what the truth are, are two different things :(
Just want it sorting properly and not wanting to be paranoid lol. Luckily cars passed it's MOT today but it's costing me too much at the mo on my crap wage and hours now :(
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£260 for the vr6 -g60 combo??? :huh: is only £96 for the clutch, £12 for the bolts, £30 for the flywheel!
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I can't find a flywheel anywhere mate :( VW quoted 155 for a new one all in.
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have you tried volksmine in burslum? is dosent have to be the g60 flywheel you can also use the mk3 2.0 16v ABF flywheel!
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VW claim same part number mate (028105269bx), googling gives same results :( Thus same price.
I think the Valeo kit should be fine, from what I'm reading people have been ok with them. But, it's not 100% concrete the flywheel being an actual OEM G60 one.
I will call the clutchman tomorrow, say 350 quid max, or cancel the job to be honest as I can't afford it this month otherwise lol it's really that bad at the mo cashflow wise.
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The Dave - Have a read of this http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=133785.0
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Ta mate, read that yesterday as it goes, it all good for you still? :)
I've spoke to the dude, raised my concern, he's looked into it and is getting me a Valeo kit and costing me a fiver extra?! lmao but he said it now, so he's fine with it and doesn't mind me pestering him as he agrees if it breaks its more hassle for him aswell as me if it's quite well documented and he aint even sure why another dude who quoted it initially put a transmech kit down, he must be the mechanic rather than the monkey lol.
So on monday the Valeo single mass kit is going in :) With new concentric slave cylinder whatever one of those is.
Most certainly interested to here how you're getting on with yours, milage you've covered, how it copes with boost etc? :)
As a sidenote reading on valeos site they make claims about dampening and weight of their setups to "mimic" a DMF to avoid shock, vibration etc, seem well thought out if it's all true and they make SMF kits for loads of motors where DMF's are prone to failure.
http://www.valeoservice.com/html/unitedkingdom/en/actualitesdetail.php?wid=165358215146C9C0533FCA7
have a read peeps tell me I have nowt to worry about :)
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Since I fitted it in November last year I've done 6500 miles.
I've had zero issues - no vibrations, no noise...nothing!
It handles the power without any problems.
Mine is a 2001 AUM 150bhp not re-mapped, totally standard.
Like you, I did a lot of research and eventually chose the Valeo kit option for convenience.
Whilst I couldn't comment on how the clutch will handle 185bhp, in a standard 150bhp Golf it has been excellent.
Cheers
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Thanks for the feedback mate it's much appreciated :D Not found much online about the valeo kit at all, just one chap claiming it's a proper G60 flywheel lol, who knows but aslong as it's all reliable I will be happy.
Heard only bad things about transmech so am glad the guy is gonna supply good kit for now what seems a great price in retrospect.
I assume all bolts etc came with the kit and nothing extra was needed? :)
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Yep, full kit includes solid flywheeel (and bolts to fix it to the crankshaft), friction plate, pressure plate (with bolts to fix it to the new flywheel) and release bearing.......oh
and a bit of grease to lubricate the splines on the friction plate/input shaft.
The clutch slave cylinder on mine is mounted externally, so there was no need to replace it 'while I was in there'.
Good luck - but it'll be fine!
Cheers
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Really appreciate your replies mate, thanks again :D
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Thought I'd update back with my initial observations/confirmations to stuff I've read, as it's been done today. The valeo full kit as mentioned was fitted, cost me £310 in the end. The old clutch did look very worn, was probably the original :) Car has done 133k now.
So;
1) Judders a bit when I pull off from standstill. I've read you do indeed need to slip the clutch more do to the solid flywheel, the DMF will have disguised my clutch control previously :D But if I do slip it more it's not too bad. Plus it's not bed in yet so I'm sure the feel will change.
2) The pedal is a bit lighter, not a huge huge amount. Although the kit is said to be designed in the bumf to have similar feel to OEM, which it does. Feels fine under my foot though :) Easy to adapt to.
3) The bite point is lower by quite a bit. No problem, stated elsewhere this happens.
4) The clutch is a lot more snatchy. Feels like a performance clutch lol. Also stated elsewhere.
5) No noises, rattling, vibrations etc at idle. All fine!
6) The gearchanges do feel a little bit sloppier. This is the bit where I have a little bit of concern. I want to check whatever mounts which will have been disturbed, are indeed tightened properly. Can anyone confirm what stuff needs checking? I have a polybush dog bone mount by the way.
7) In relation to the above, if I let of the throttle even when it's low throttle, there is a sort of obvious snatch/jerk and a feel of say worn mounts? No smoothness. If this is related to mounts or the fact the DMF has now gone, I'm unsure. Obviously I can compensate if I'm smoother on the throttle but it's as if the box isn't attached as "tight" as before. I'm no mechanic so it's all over my head really.
Points 6 and 7 are the only concerns of mine. Does anyone think it could be a case of say the dog bone mount needs to be tighter for example? Anything I should be having checked to confirm etc?
The poly dog bone mount is quite new as are all engine mounts too.
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Cant say mine felt sloppier :undecided:
Mine feels tight and i absolutely love the way it drives though im running THS performance engine mounts :smiley:
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I guess the changes themselves aint so bad, it's as if the gearbox feels a bit more "loose" though? It's hard to put into words really. It's as if there is "movement" on the box if I'm not dead smooth? The changes are a little bit notchy but not "bad" if you get me, but it's cold out, and it's felt the same for a bit since winter came and low low temps all the time anyway. I intend to get the box oil changed soon as no idea when it was last done.
But moreso concerned with point 7 I guess out of my list :)
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I guess the changes themselves aint so bad, it's as if the gearbox feels a bit more "loose" though? It's hard to put into words really. It's as if there is "movement" on the box if I'm not dead smooth? The changes are a little bit notchy but not "bad" if you get me, but it's cold out, and it's felt the same for a bit since winter came and low low temps all the time anyway. I intend to get the box oil changed soon as no idea when it was last done.
But moreso concerned with point 7 I guess out of my list :)
My guess is something has been left loose :undecided:
Doesn't sound right to me.
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If I know exactly what needs checking in terms of mounts and stuff I will get my usual mechanic to look at it for me, it's much more convenient lol.
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lol so many post for a little thing :grin: good to hear u got it changed shame u dont live near by i would have got underneath ur car on stands undone the box onto a jack wheeled it out made the changes get back under there with the box and slamed it back on. the joy of clutch changes :laugh: done them on all my mk's :cool: have to say the mk1 is the easiest u can put the box on ur chest and fit it on :wink:
think my clutch on the 4 is on its way out soon its done 72k and the bites high and it judders when it slips when setting off :evil:
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My old one just slipped under boost mainly in 3rd, 4th and 5th lol.
Nearly there though, just want it feel tight like it did before really. I am thinking dog bone will have a big effect here with point 6 and 7, I am assuming it'd need to be loosened or removed for a clutch swap? As I say I'm no mechanic, guessing game time lol
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ye that would def be taken off for the job, when u let of the gas quick does it feel like theres a wobble then the body of the car feels like it moves back and forth then decreases speed if u get what i mean?
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Yeah thats one way of describing it mate.
I very much doubt the gearbox will be mounted to the engine "loosely" lol I don't understand how it all works but if you like its a forward backward motion then settles fine again.
Jerky, snatchy feeling when you come off the throttle as if theres a loose/worn mount. Was fine this morning but not as fine now. It's not shockingly bad, but as you may have all guessed, I'M ONE PICKY MOFO :D lol
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if ur car is not that low or u got a jack handy prop it up a bit and grab the front and rear of the box and try rocking it, look at the dog bone to to see if there is any movement but i doubt it as u have uprated the bushes if im right in saying. "if" he didnt tighten up the bone u would get a bit of tick/knock noise as it bolts into the subframe and the angle of the bolts is the same as the movement so this is where the noise would come from so should be all tight as u have not said anyting about noise just the wobble.
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Yeah no noise or knocking or anything.. tis an odd one, will have to jack it up at weekend and do that, see if anything looks untoward to my untrained eye lol.
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just give it forward and back movement make sure its firm also when its on all 4's lift the hood if u have the plastic engine off grab the right side of the head near to the black breather pipe and give it a shake dont know what else to surjest really bud these are the things i have done in my gti years... iv never used a garage to do any of my car work :smiley: god knows how much i have saved over the past 5 years
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Will try get these things checked on sat :) Ta mate.
Been thinking about this some more.
2 differences from before which lead me to dog bone mount and however tight it is.
It's polybushed... now previously I had no jerk coming on or off the throttle, not snappy/snatchy/jerky at all really, BUT! I did have vibration in the cabin at up to 2k rpm when the car was under load.
Now, I've clicked today, said vibration has gone. Everything is very smooth under 2k, but as I say I get the jerk as if somethings moving forward and backward, just once, very quickly then settling. No noises though.
Just points me to assuming the dog bone mount isn't as tight??? Make sense or am I talking out me bum? lol
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no not bum talk, sounds right as this is the item that suppresses the role of the engine which movement is transformed to the jerkiness if you get my flow... :tongue:
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Yeah I immediately noticed tonight no vibration under 2k.. never clicked yest, which made me think straight of the polybushed dog bone mount not being on as tight.
Hopefullyyy thats all it is :)
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Just wondered if anyone else had opinions re: dog bone or engine mounts?
Ta :)
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My mechanic was snowed under so didn't look at car today (I get mates rates so can't complain) so have properly booked it in for next thurs.
Anyways, popped the bonnet today, aint looked under it since I had the car done...
Couple of washers sitting on the wing edges, a loose airbox, battery cover been cut, nylon nuts here and there... the bumper had been off too but I can sort that myself so thought nothing of it... but mainly, this:
(http://www.illusional.co.uk/stuff/cover1.jpg)
Took it off as it was hanging off anyways.. a plastic leg thing went straight through the top so it was flapping around. I flipped it over and saw this!
(http://www.illusional.co.uk/stuff/cover2.jpg)
Can you believe he tried to fibreglass it back together?!?!
DO NOT BOTHER TRUSTING THE CLUTCHMAN IN STOKE-ON-TRENT is all I can say. Really pissed off. Went down but typically they were closed. He didn't do me a receipt either, said he'd post one so took my address, stillnothing there either so going in thurs. I expect he'll deny any damage but now I've got to pay my normal mechanic to have a look over the car, mounts, anything obviously missing in terms of nuts and bolts. Should have took it to him in the first place.
How much are engine covers? Want him to buy me a new one!
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The kit has bed in a bit now and does feel better/smoother. I've done about 600 miles and it's gradually got a bit better. It aint perfect but we're getting there :)
One thing to note is the bite point was really low initially. Now it's not, it's probably just ABOVE half way on the pedal so closer to the top of the pedal, it was like this with my old clutch. Is this normal? :) Or should I be worried.
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Just a quickie.
I still get quite bad juddering in 1st gear with this setup 3 months on and 3000 miles later.
It's been suggested the friction plate in the kit (don't ask me what it does as I dunno lol) could be faulty.
Any ideas if this is likely? Is this gonna knacker my gearbox? It's still snatchy/jerky on and off the throttle... to be honest it's ruined how the car drives to me, I'll never get it feeling great to drive for as long as this clutch is in place :(