GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Topic started by: BradHarris on 23 November 2008, 16:33
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Coming up to a 20,000 mile service, so decided to get a quote from a well known VAG specialist as well as local dealers.
Asked for Long Life oil, as per the perceived wisdom that many on this site advocate.
Said it had already been changed at 10,000 miles, so it wasn't the first service.
Was a bit surprised to see in the response that as a matter of course they will not put long life oil in the cars that they service,
unless explicitly told to do so by the customer, because of many previous problems when using that oil.
So, I phoned up to discuss.
Reason given was that over many years of experience, they have encountered several failures of VAG engines, including the 1.8T and 2.0 FSI,
due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.
They said this usually manifests itself from 8 years - 80,000 miles upwards.
Their experience tells them that it is the long life oil that is the cause of the problem.
Obviously, not many 2.0 TFSI engines have done that mileage, so they haven't come across a problem with it yet, although they have had an A3 2.0 FSI engine with the problem.
So they highly recommend an engine flush to make sure that all gunge is removed then to use a 10W40 oil instead.
Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.
I guess the other variable is that the spec of the long life oil (now at mark 3) has changed over the years.
Don't know if that makes any difference ?
They are an outfit that has received a lot of good press on this web site from many frequent and trusted inhabitants, and they are very familiar with highly tuning all variants of the 2.0 TFSI plant, as well as routine servicing.
They didn't want to be named because of potential problems with VAG themselves, so I won't do that.
Anyone else on here heard of similar problems later in a VAG engine's life that could have been put down to use of long life oil ?
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Hmm, what 10W-40 oil are they suggesting and is it fully synthetic or semi?
I would have thought that the extensive R&D VW used in order to recommend the use of longlife oil should make the garage's claim suspect.
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due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.
Unless the actual oil is breaking down and going lumpy (which would be a massive issue), it must be an accumulation of the usual contaminants that build up over time in the engine. Modern oils have very good cleaning properties, but sooner or later it will be unable to keep those contaminants in suspension. I suspect those cars effected have done lots of short low mileage journeys and then maybe compounded the problem by exceeding the max 2 years between longlife services. Not the type of driving longlife servicing is meant for.
Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.
my limited knowledge on oil tells me a thinner oil protects on cold startup better as it flows easier.
almost sounds like I know what I am talking about :laugh:
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it might be a good idea to ask some other dealer's on their views on long life oils and see if there are any consistent issues that come up.
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i am going to continue to use the long life until VW say otherwise i think :undecided:
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i am going to continue to use the long life until VW say otherwise i think :undecided:
Or TT... :wink:
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i am going to continue to use the long life until VW say otherwise i think :undecided:
Or TT... :wink:
yeah lol! :smiley:
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Perhaps Long Life Oil (LLO) does cause a problems if left for 2yrs or +18k miles before a change. But changing oil sooner than that, say half the time would IMHO be better.
I'll stick with LLO and change very 6~8k miles or 12mths which ever is sooner.
Would have also thought a 5/30 oil will heat up quicker and be 'thinner' and better lube properties than a 10/40 at lower temps. But then again I could be wrong.
In the E46 320D BMW from around 2002 to 2006, it was found infrequent oil change would cause the findings suggested by the independent garage. This would lead to an expensive turbo blow up.. Those who changed their oils sooner never seemed to have a problem.
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Yeah, I don't know if I mis-heard or mis-interpreted the bit about the long life oil taking longer to heat up, or if the guy may have made an assumption about the long life 3 oil spec, don't know, but what I wrote didn't make sense !
Think I'll phone a few other VAG specialists to see if there's any correlation with what I was told.
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Done some phoning...
3 VAG specialists have never encountered any problems that they could put down to using the long life oil.
But, 1 did say that engines that use it are not as clean as those that don't - when they are stripped and examined - regardless of service interval.
As a matter of course, they use a good quality fully synthetic 5W40 oil,
and recommend 10,000 mile oil change intervals.
So, some correlation with the original response that I got from the well known organization that I spoke to on Friday - the one who many of you have trusted to supply and / or fit engine, exhaust, brake and suspension mods, to re-map your ecu's, to test on their rolling road, but whose recommendation for the most important component of all - you don't trust.
Strange one this, and a bit of a dilemma - how do you distinguish between fact and belief ?
Bit like the two theories of breaking in an engine I suppose, but that's another mass debate...
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I change my oil every 10,000 miles anyway.
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From Mk V Maintenance Section - straight form the horses mouth:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779.0
TT may comment when he sees this !!!
:grin:
Cass
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Me too - I'd never go more than 12 months/10k without an oil change.
Cass
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Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Cass
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Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Cass
I wonder if the price is going to go up then? I think I paid £5 - 10 more to have Long Life oil used at the 10,000 miles service rather than normal T&D oil.
I'm pretty sure that when I rang up the Seat dealer posing as a Cupra owner, they said that Long Life oil is all that they use with the Cupra even for a T&D 10,000 mile service........
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There never was a question about the wisdom of changing oil at 10,000 miles.
I think everyone accepts that.
There never was a question about the spec of the long life 3 oil being the "best".
All I reported was that 2 VAG specialists who actually dismantle and rebuild engines,
and therefore see with mark 1 eyeball their condition,
have said that some of those that have used long life oil have been dirty and clogged,
those that haven't used it have been OK.
Now there could of course be lots of other reasons for each of these occurrences,
and we can all think of several,
and I don't believe that the cause-effect is in any way proven.
BUT, the first hand experiences of others who don't happen to frequent this site,
I thought, was at least worth knowing about.
It was my surprise at the initial comment from the first VAG specialist - see first post -
that prompted that post in the first place.
Sorry if all this challenges any deeply held beliefs.
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I'd be more concerned about the use of 'Flushing Oil' in my engine, TBH. To me that sounds like an easy buck for the garage?
I'm hooked on T & D and supply my own trade priced Fuchs LL oil :wink:
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Sorry if all this challenges any deeply held beliefs.
Brad,
No problem with the post or any of the comments. We're all here to share and learn from each other :wink:
There are some experts around the forum though and they have contributed greatly to various debates about which is better than what. They have some pretty strong and fixed opinions, based upon their own experiences. In my personal opinion, the dealers are not all singing from the same hymn sheet. Until they do, you just have to decide your own way to go. If you find a dealer you can trust, then I would say go with their advice. The Mk V is now at an age when some owners will be migrating from VW main dealers to specialists for service and repair work. There is nothing wrong with specialists, as many other marques have them (for example Porsche). It would be interesting to see what VW say on the subject as the opinion of 2 independent specialists may not be representative of the situation in their eyes.
Are you aware of any other forums highlighting this issue ?
Cass
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i never asked if there was going to be a price rise, i was told by the branch service manager that the long life oil is going to be used across the board unless asked for by customer or not applicable to vehicle
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Cass,
I'm not aware of this potential issue having been raised on any other forums.
I have found this to be the most informative forum, and I don't have time to spend on the others as well.
Like I said, it was my surprise at the comments from the VAG specialist
that prompted me to ask on here if anyone else had heard similar things.
Clearly not.
5 minutes phoning round though and another VAG specialist does say something similar.
And just because others haven't come across problems, doesn't mean they don't exist.
It's the sort of thing that probably won't be obvious until something goes bang.
Nothing conclusive though, but maybe food for thought.
Subject closed I think.
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5 minutes phoning round though and another VAG specialist does say something similar.
And just because others haven't come across problems, doesn't mean they don't exist.
It's the sort of thing that probably won't be obvious until something goes bang.
Nothing conclusive though, but maybe food for thought.
Subject closed I think.
Agreed Brad,
I had a similar experience when owning a Porsche - well known engine issues/repairs were regularly attended to by independent specialists however Porsche used to simply replace the engines complete if under warranty/extended warranty - if you didn't have that you had to pay up yourself :shocked: All engines were shipped back to the factory and Porsche refused to acknowledge any design fault or engage in a recall. The dealers were tight lipped but at least the independents would tell it like it is/was. May still be early days for the Mk V GTI but as you say, you won't know until something goes bang. Worth keeping the warranty and main dealer servicing up to date :wink:
Cass
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i have just had mine serviced and like the OP was warned about longlife so did not opt for the longlife stuff this time - instead they have apparently put in mobil 1 10/40 ? Is this right? if so whats the exact stuff I need to keep spare (just in case) ?
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I just had mine serviced at 21k (first service) with long life oil. Everything seems fine to me :undecided:
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Personally I recon that a lot of the problems that are attributed to the use of longlife oil. Are more due to the fact that people go onto the LL service regime but dont use the vehicle in the manner that its supposed to be used for when on the LL regime.
Me - I do a lot of short stop start journeys, so its on the time and distance deal. But if I blasted up and down motorways all day, then it would deffo be LL. thus if folks listened to what VW have spent a bucket of cash in R&D and followed the correct servicing recommendations there would be a lot less "percieved faults"
cheers
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but then who keeps a car for 8 years or 80,000 miles, im not going to loose sleep over it. :laugh:
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i have just had my 3rd service at 28k :shocked: and the vw dealer said y has your car got long life oil in it as its on a 10k service not the 20k service so you have been ripped off on your last service :lipsrsealed: so they think as i got the oil cheap :wink: so if u are on 10k service make sure they dont put longlife oil in as there is no point and you are being ripped off
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Whats the price difference between LL oil and the cheaper stuff???
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Whats the price difference between LL oil and the cheaper stuff???
I had a 10k service but requested the LL oil. There was only about £5 to £8 in it as far as I can remember.
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every car i've owned in the last 10 years or so i have dropped the oil and used Mobil 1 10/40, i shall do the same with the GTI in a few weeks, it's done 14k now and is on the LL service plan, i have no doubt like every other car i've done it with the GTI will run better with Mobil 1 and give an slight mpg increase too.
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every car i've owned in the last 10 years or so i have dropped the oil and used Mobil 1 10/40, i shall do the same with the GTI in a few weeks, it's done 14k now and is on the LL service plan, i have no doubt like every other car i've done it with the GTI will run better with Mobil 1 and give an slight mpg increase too.
Isn't it called super S now? Can't find Mobil 1 in 10w/40 form :undecided:
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Coming up to a 20,000 mile service, so decided to get a quote from a well known VAG specialist as well as local dealers.
Asked for Long Life oil, as per the perceived wisdom that many on this site advocate.
Said it had already been changed at 10,000 miles, so it wasn't the first service.
Was a bit surprised to see in the response that as a matter of course they will not put long life oil in the cars that they service,
unless explicitly told to do so by the customer, because of many previous problems when using that oil.
Hmmmm . . . . worms, can, and open spring to mind. Not to mention warranty and bye-bye!
So, I phoned up to discuss.
Reason given was that over many years of experience, they have encountered several failures of VAG engines, including the 1.8T and 2.0 FSI,
due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.
They said this usually manifests itself from 8 years - 80,000 miles upwards.
Their experience tells them that it is the long life oil that is the cause of the problem.
What a load of utter bollox.
Did this so-called VAG "specialist", or the others, actually get a formal "Used Oil Analysis" carried out? If not, then they are way out of order to state that it is specifically the oil at fault.
I do accept that there are issues with oil sludge - and this is particularly so on pertol engines with turbos - but this has jack schit to do with "LongLife" oils. It is simply down to incorrect maintenance - which I will address later.
Obviously, not many 2.0 TFSI engines have done that mileage, so they haven't come across a problem with it yet, although they have had an A3 2.0 FSI engine with the problem.
So what was the result of the Used Oil Analysis? Oh, sorry, they didn't do one, did they! :rolleyes: So they can't actually blame it on the oil.
So they highly recommend an engine flush to make sure that all gunge is removed then to use a 10W40 oil instead.
That is really, REALLY bad advice - and is a blatant, "old-skool" un-educated point of view.
And it will invalidate your warranty.
And will affect resale values and desirablity too.
Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.
Yet more un-educated clap-trap you have been told. A 5w30 is less viscous (in simple-speak - less thicker) than a 10w40 - so they have got it the wrong way round. The 5w30 oil will warm up sooner than the 10w40.
The 5w30 will also start to protect your engine much sooner than the 10w40, and will use less fuel in the process (due to less "pumping losses").
I guess the other variable is that the spec of the long life oil (now at mark 3) has changed over the years.
Don't know if that makes any difference ?
You are correct that the LongLife oils have improved over the three "generations" of VW standards. However, even the original "Mk1" brew of LongLife is still way better than ANY non-LongLife oil - even a VW502.00 rated brew.
They are an outfit that has received a lot of good press on this web site from many frequent and trusted inhabitants, and they are very familiar with highly tuning all variants of the 2.0 TFSI plant, as well as routine servicing.
They didn't want to be named because of potential problems with VAG themselves, so I won't do that.
Hmmmm, I can't see why they shouldn't be named. Afterall, if you are simply relaying "word for word" (to your best abilites) their advice, then they should be exposed for giving blatantly incorrect, uneducated, and unresearched advice. And should anyone actually follow their advice, then it will become a "nice little earner" for the extra work that will eventually result - as a result of premature engine wear.
Anyone else on here heard of similar problems later in a VAG engine's life that could have been put down to use of long life oil ?
Nope, not the oil.
However, any problems of "issues" to VAG engines are simply down to two three issues - either:
- a: the owner not complying with the official manufacturer recommendations (specifically regarding the oil used, and the service regime)
- b: stealers (either genuine or independent) not complying with the official manufacturer recommendations
- c: stealers failing to give correct advice on the limitations of the LongLife regime
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Hmm, what 10W-40 oil are they suggesting and is it fully synthetic or semi?
The above really doesn't matter - simply because there are NO 10w40 which are Volkswagen approved - irrespective of weather they are fully synthetic or not.
I would have thought that the extensive R&D VW used in order to recommend the use of longlife oil should make the garage's claim suspect.
Yup, me too.
And whilst we are on the "R&D" issue, don't forget the equally extensive ACEA specifications - which are actually just the starting point for VW oil specifications. :wink:
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due to the oil uptake pipe on the suction side of the pump clogging up, obviously a potential engine killer.
Unless the actual oil is breaking down and going lumpy (which would be a massive issue), it must be an accumulation of the usual contaminants that build up over time in the engine. Modern oils have very good cleaning properties, but sooner or later it will be unable to keep those contaminants in suspension. I suspect those cars effected have done lots of short low mileage journeys and then maybe compounded the problem by exceeding the max 2 years between longlife services. Not the type of driving longlife servicing is meant for.
You are spot on. And this is where the owners, and more importantly, the stealers fall foul of.
Also said that the 5W30 long life oil will take longer to warm up and this in itself doesn't do the engine much good.
my limited knowledge on oil tells me a thinner oil protects on cold startup better as it flows easier.
almost sounds like I know what I am talking about :laugh:
You sir, are indeed correct! :wink: :grin:
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i am going to continue to use the long life until VW say otherwise i think :undecided:
Or TT... :wink:
yeah lol! :smiley:
LOL x2 :grin:
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Yeah, I don't know if I mis-heard or mis-interpreted the bit about the long life oil taking longer to heat up, or if the guy may have made an assumption about the long life 3 oil spec, don't know, but what I wrote didn't make sense !
OK, no worries
Think I'll phone a few other VAG specialists to see if there's any correlation with what I was told.
It would be good to have names of these specialists. :wink: :smiley:
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Done some phoning...
3 VAG specialists have never encountered any problems that they could put down to using the long life oil.
So 3 say no problems, but just one does claim to have problems. The aroma of a rat should be detectable. :rolleyes:
But, 1 did say that engines that use it are not as clean as those that don't - when they are stripped and examined - regardless of service interval.
Compared to what? And how are they defining "clean"?
As a matter of course, they use a good quality fully synthetic 5W40 oil,
Make, type, VW approval. Because if they are oils from american oil companies, then their definition of fully synthetic does not actually comply with the very strict definition of the European Union. So, if for example, they are recommending some "fully synthetic" from say Valvoline or Mobil - then by EU standards, it most definately will NOT be fully synthetic. :rolleyes:
and recommend 10,000 mile oil change intervals.
Hmmmm - just another "one size fits all" piece of advice. This may be fine for most, however, if you have tuned your car, or do track days, or tow a caravan (well for the latter, a 12bore to the temples would be the best advice! :evil:) - then 10k miles OCIs can still be way too long.
So, some correlation with the original response that I got from the well known organization that I spoke to on Friday - the one who many of you have trusted to supply and / or fit engine, exhaust, brake and suspension mods, to re-map your ecu's, to test on their rolling road, but whose recommendation for the most important component of all - you don't trust.
Not really any correlation at all! The three other VAG specialists made no claims that the LongLife oil was to fault. And neither did any of them recommend a 10w40.
And just because someone happens to sell good quality zorsts, anchors, or springy bits - which I bet include Milltek and Eibach (and are equally highly praised and available at many, many other suppliers) - does that somehow make them experts in Tribology? I personally think NOT.
Strange one this, and a bit of a dilemma - how do you distinguish between fact and belief ?
Facts are simple. Comply with what Volkswagen recommend.
"Beliefs" are just that - a simple opinion which can be formed by many many different variables - and I bet profit margin plays a massive part in their "recommendation". :rolleyes:
Bit like the two theories of breaking in an engine I suppose, but that's another mass debate...
<cough> you need to keep that to yourself <cough> :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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I change my oil every 10,000 miles anyway.
On the GTI, mine gets done every 6months or 5k miles. I do let the RS4 go upto a year or 10k though (no turbo to cook the oil :wink:). :smiley:
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Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Yup, spot on. From 2009 calendar year, for cars of model year 2001 and newer, all cars (petrol and diesel) irrespective of service regime, will only use LongLife 3 oils.
And if you have an oil burner with a DPF, then you MUST only use LongLife 3 oils, even on the T&D service.
Finally, many of the older VW oil specifications for petrol engines have now become obsolete - 500.00, 501.00 and 501.05 are all obsolete (none of which affects any Mk5 owners, but may be useful to owners of older cars).
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Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Cass
I wonder if the price is going to go up then? I think I paid £5 - 10 more to have Long Life oil used at the 10,000 miles service rather than normal T&D oil.
I'm pretty sure that when I rang up the Seat dealer posing as a Cupra owner, they said that Long Life oil is all that they use with the Cupra even for a T&D 10,000 mile service........
There is a price difference between the 502.00 T&D oils compared to any of the LongLife brews - but for a Golf, it should only really be a max of £20 extra for the LL brew.
And it seems the Seat stealer knows what good advice is! :wink: :smiley:
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On the GTI, mine gets done every 6months or 5k miles. I do let the RS4 go upto a year or 10k though (no turbo to cook the oil :wink:). :smiley:
I am glad you put the above. That is what i did with my old polo and will continue to do with the golf.
Really good read of all the above info TT
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There never was a question about the wisdom of changing oil at 10,000 miles.
I think everyone accepts that.
OK, but I personally don't think you made that point very clear in your OP
There never was a question about the spec of the long life 3 oil being the "best".
Hmm - I'm not so sure. The fundamental point of your first post was that engines were failing, and the absolute cause was the LongLife oil. So to me, I take that kind of fundamental viewpoint from you as severly questioning the quality of the LongLife oils. I certainly didn't see any previous posts from you defending in any way the LongLife oils! :rolleyes:
All I reported was that 2 VAG specialists who actually dismantle and rebuild engines,
and therefore see with mark 1 eyeball their condition,
have said that some of those that have used long life oil have been dirty and clogged,
those that haven't used it have been OK.
Now there could of course be lots of other reasons for each of these occurrences,
and we can all think of several,
and I don't believe that the cause-effect is in any way proven.
As I previously stated, I don't disagree that there has been previous issues with oil sludging. However, I do strongly dispute the very simplistic view which you seem to be relaying - in that two companies who strip down engines and find them "dirty" inside can then categorically and absolutely blame it firmly on LongLife oils.
This opens a massive can of worms.
Firstly, what make of LL oil was used, and what spec of LL oil was used. Secondly, were the requirements of the VW/Audi servicing schedules carried out to the letter, and were those cars on the LL regime actually used in full compliance with the LL regime requirements (ie, never going above 3,000rpm, doing more than 30miles in a single journey, not driving in a "sporty manner", etc).
Finally, the most crucial issue - do these two companies have more expertise than say Volkswagen, Fuchs, Castrol, Pentosin, Kluber, Bechem or the ACEA - and the vast masses of R&D and historical data they can all rely on - together with testing under strict laboratory "controled" conditions. I don't think so.
So, whilst these two "specialists" may have unearthed some undesirable traits, on what may be a miniscule quantity of VAG engines - then sure, some eyebrows should be raised, and even questions asked. But they should NOT be deemed as the authoritative "end-all" point of view. And as I have pointed out, some very serious questions need asking of these four VAG specialists, because it would seem that not even two of them can agree on the basic fundamentals of the specific concerns raised in this thread.
BUT, the first hand experiences of others who don't happen to frequent this site,
I thought, was at least worth knowing about.
It was my surprise at the initial comment from the first VAG specialist - see first post -
that prompted that post in the first place.
Sorry if all this challenges any deeply held beliefs.
No appology needed from anyone, and thanks for sharing. But I hope you see that even these so-called VAG specialists can be wrong too! :wink: :smiley:
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Cass,
I'm not aware of this potential issue having been raised on any other forums.
I have found this to be the most informative forum, and I don't have time to spend on the others as well.
Like I said, it was my surprise at the comments from the VAG specialist
that prompted me to ask on here if anyone else had heard similar things.
Clearly not.
5 minutes phoning round though and another VAG specialist does say something similar.
And just because others haven't come across problems, doesn't mean they don't exist.
It's the sort of thing that probably won't be obvious until something goes bang.
And that is a very valid point. And let's not forget that VW/Audi stealers will be the very last in the queue to volunteer this kind of information (if it actually is a widespread issue). However, as Cass rightly points out, the early TFSI engines are now out of warranty and are highly likely to be serviced and maintained outside the main dealer network. So, if there was any issues with LongLife oils, then I'm absolutely certain that it would be more widely known about.
And another point of view, it is not just all the VW Group cars which use LongLife oils and servicing regimes - General Motors Europe (Vauxhall, Opel, Saab, Chevrolet), Daimler AG (formerly Daimler-Chrysler - Mercedes Benz and Smart), BMW AG (BMW, Mini, Rolls Royce) - to mention a few - all use LongLife oils and LongLife servicing regimes. And do they have any "issues"? Nope. :smug:
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i have just had mine serviced and like the OP was warned about longlife so did not opt for the longlife stuff this time - instead they have apparently put in mobil 1 10/40 ? Is this right? if so whats the exact stuff I need to keep spare (just in case) ?
That is NOT a good oil for the GTI. It is actually shyte for any direct injection petrol engine.
I would recommend getting it changed for a correct spec oil from a European oil manufacturer.
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Personally I recon that a lot of the problems that are attributed to the use of longlife oil. Are more due to the fact that people go onto the LL service regime but dont use the vehicle in the manner that its supposed to be used for when on the LL regime.
You are exactly correct. Way too many people are advised to go on the LL servicing schedules, when their driving styles or vehicle useages categorically do NOT support the LL regime.
However, there is another more crucial point which no-one has yet stated . . . . and it would seem to be a very common issue here in Blighty. Answers on a postcard to Teutonic_Towers, . . . . :wink: :grin:
Me - I do a lot of short stop start journeys, so its on the time and distance deal. But if I blasted up and down motorways all day, then it would deffo be LL.
But do you also use the LL oils too?
thus if folks listened to what VW have spent a bucket of cash in R&D and followed the correct servicing recommendations there would be a lot less "percieved faults"
Exactly. I would stick my neck on the block and state that 99.9% of all these associated engine faults, so readily blamed on LongLife servicing or LongLife oils - are actually categorically the fault of NOT complying with the strict requirements of the LongLife regime.
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i have just had my 3rd service at 28k :shocked: and the vw dealer said y has your car got long life oil in it as its on a 10k service not the 20k service so you have been ripped off on your last service :lipsrsealed: so they think as i got the oil cheap :wink: so if u are on 10k service make sure they dont put longlife oil in as there is no point and you are being ripped off
Sorry, but that is complete bollox. And that just proves that the VW stealers can not, and do not comply with the official Volkswagen specific recommendations. :angry:
Yes, you can use the older spec 502.00 T&D oils, but those oils are clearly inferior to any of the LongLife oil standards. Furthermore, ONLY the LongLife 3 oil standard has been specifically developed to cope with the additional problems which the direct injection system generates. :rolleyes:
So for them to state you have been "ripped off" if you use LL oils on T&D services is fundamentally incorrect, and more importantly, blatantly against VWUK and VWAG official advice. :angry:
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every car i've owned in the last 10 years or so i have dropped the oil and used Mobil 1 10/40, i shall do the same with the GTI in a few weeks, it's done 14k now and is on the LL service plan, i have no doubt like every other car i've done it with the GTI will run better with Mobil 1 and give an slight mpg increase too.
So every car you've owned has had a turbo, and FSI cylinder-direct fuel injection???? :rolleyes:
I'll state again, Mobil 1 10w40 is NOT a good oil for the GTI, or indeed any modern car. Furthermore, it does NOT comply with ANY of the current VW oil specification standards. Finally, despite what Mobil may try and claim on the bottle, Mobil 1 10w40 is NOT a fully synthetic oil. Mobil 1, just like the vast majority of american "fully synthetic" oils are infact just a semi-synthetic - in that they use "Group 3 basestocks" which are also known as "synthesised hydrocarbon fluids" (or SHFs for short) - which in basic laymans terms - is just a refined and modified mineral oil. In the European Union, it is illegal for Group 3 basestocks to be classed as "synthetic" in any way. The only way that Mobil 1 10w40 could even be described as "semi-synthetic" is simply because it also contains very small quantities of "Group 4 basestocks" known as PolyAlphaOelefins (PAOs) - which can be classed as synthetic.
For the "best" oils, particularly in a turbo engine, then you need to look for an oil forumlated from the absolute pinnacle of basestocks, namely "Group 5 basestocks", also known as "Esters" (and Ester derivatives and analogues, such as Diesters and Triesters). Group 5 basestocks are not widely available in the North American continent, which is why US/Canadian originated "synthetics" only use Gp3 SHFs (not a real synthetic) or Gp4 PAOs. However, most (and I'll say that with a caveat) European oil manufacturers, the quality ones at least, generally use Gp5 Esters as their basestocks. I know for definate that Castrol (and the BP Visco - because Castrol is owned by BP), Fuchs and Motul all routinely use Esters as basestocks. TotalFinaElf, Pentosin and Agip are all unable to give definative advices on their basestocks. So perhaps you can see why I actively discourage the use of any "american" oil, and positively recommend either Castrol, Fuchs or Motul. :nerd:
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every car i've owned in the last 10 years or so i have dropped the oil and used Mobil 1 10/40, i shall do the same with the GTI in a few weeks, it's done 14k now and is on the LL service plan, i have no doubt like every other car i've done it with the GTI will run better with Mobil 1 and give an slight mpg increase too.
So every car you've owned has had a turbo, and FSI cylinder-direct fuel injection???? :rolleyes:
I'll state again, Mobil 1 10w40 is NOT a good oil for the GTI, or indeed any modern car. Furthermore, it does NOT comply with ANY of the current VW oil specification standards. Finally, despite what Mobil may try and claim on the bottle, Mobil 1 10w40 is NOT a fully synthetic oil. Mobil 1, just like the vast majority of american "fully synthetic" oils are infact just a semi-synthetic - in that they use "Group 3 basestocks" which are also known as "synthesised hydrocarbon fluids" (or SHFs for short) - which in basic laymans terms - is just a refined and modified mineral oil. In the European Union, it is illegal for Group 3 basestocks to be classed as "synthetic" in any way. The only way that Mobil 1 10w40 could even be described as "semi-synthetic" is simply because it also contains very small quantities of "Group 4 basestocks" known as PolyAlphaOelefins (PAOs) - which can be classed as synthetic.
For the "best" oils, particularly in a turbo engine, then you need to look for an oil forumlated from the absolute pinnacle of basestocks, namely "Group 5 basestocks", also known as "Esters" (and Ester derivatives and analogues, such as Diesters and Triesters). Group 5 basestocks are not widely available in the North American continent, which is why US/Canadian originated "synthetics" only use Gp3 SHFs (not a real synthetic) or Gp4 PAOs. However, most (and I'll say that with a caveat) European oil manufacturers, the quality ones at least, generally use Gp5 Esters as their basestocks. I know for definate that Castrol (and the BP Visco - because Castrol is owned by BP), Fuchs and Motul all routinely use Esters as basestocks. TotalFinaElf, Pentosin and Agip are all unable to give definative advices on their basestocks. So perhaps you can see why I actively discourage the use of any "american" oil, and positively recommend either Castrol, Fuchs or Motul. :nerd:
WoW :smiley:
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i got fed up after 3 lines!! :evil:.
i think he's saying, your advice given is total rubbish. :laugh:
Hope the above advice helps all if you need to know :smiley:
Happy days.
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i always change the oil it what ever car i have every 5k, thats just me, i always use fully synth 0/30 or 0/40. I think the longest you should leave your oil is 10k if you what to look after the turbo. :smiley:
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i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'
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Hmmm....my ED30 is currently on a LL regime but given that I do lots of short journeys as well as long ones, I was gonna change it to T&D servicing. Even the car's started telling me it needs a service. Booked for a service in two weeks time.
Will they use LL oil? Or a different spec? I vaguely recall something about VW switching all oils to LL (instead of T&D). Is this true?
When the car goes in for its first service, should I tell them to use LL oil or not?
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if you are on T & D, they will normally only use longlife oil unless you ask and pay more, roughly £20 in my case.
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Is it worth paying £25 for an 'engine flush' on a second service, 25K?
Thanks! =]
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Not really considering a can of flush is about a fiver, and all you have to do is drop it in the oil filler and let your car idle up to temperature for 10 minutes, then drop the oil out as normal. Could do that yourself in the carpark before handing the keys over.
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i always change the oil it what ever car i have every 5k, thats just me, i always use fully synth 0/30 or 0/40. I think the longest you should leave your oil is 10k if you what to look after the turbo. :smiley:
I agree.
But like I said earlier - not all so-called "fully synthetics" are actually fully sythetic at all.
And even those which are made from fully synthetic basestocks, even they arnt all the same. So you may have a Gp4 PAO fully sythetic alongside a Gp5 Ester fully synthetic - and the Gp5 is vastly better than the Gp4
Furthermore, many of the European 'genuine' semi-synthetics, and even some quality European minerals can out-perform most american Gp3 so-called fully synthetics.
So oil really is a black art, and choosing correctly isn't simply a matter of popping into your local Halfrauds and picking up which ever is on offer at the time.
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i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'
Don't forget that the vast majority of the 1.8 20vt sludging issues originated from accross the pond. The thick yanks refused to use 'expensive' fully synthetic oil - which is definately needed in a turbo. Instead, they thought they knew best by using shyte mineral oil, but chaning it every 2,000 miles. What then happened was the mineral rapidly carbonised in the very high temperatures of the turbo bearings - effictively trying to do in the engine - which takes nature millions of years - by turning oil into coal. Now in anyones book, solid particles in an oil are not good. And in a turbo, mineral oil can start being broken down in as little as 100 miles.
They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear. This is because they adamantly refuse to use 504.00 (and 507.00) spec oil (LongLife 3). How is this related to PD issues you might ask? Easy, the current LL3 is fully backwards compatible to all previous VW oil standards - so that would include the petrol engine specs of 502.00, 503.00 and 503.01 - and the diesel engine specs of 505.00, 505.01, 506.00 and 506.01. So any derv heads on this site will know that the LL3 is fully compliant with the diesel PD oils of 505.01 and 506.01. So you may still ask wtf a PD diesel has to do with the GTI engine - simple the ultra high loadings found on the PD camshafts are virtually identical to the FSI HPFP cam lobe loadings. Yet the yanks only use 502.00 oils, which have never had any PD-type of rating.
So, for us Brits and Europeans who generally stick to the manufacturers recommendations, and only use LL3 oil in their GTI - then I strongly doubt that they will experience any of the FSI cam lobe wear issues. Sadly, there does seem to be some Brits who like to follow what the Yanks say, and put 502.00 in their GTI, and I bet it is those who experience the FSI cam lobe wear probs. :rolleyes:
Dinner time - SWMBO now nagging . . . :rolleyes:
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I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times :lipsrsealed:
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So...wait....TT come back! Do I demand VW use LL or TD oil?
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So...wait....TT come back! Do I demand VW use LL or TD oil?
I think TT says you should use LL oil on a T&D schedule :wink:
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I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times :lipsrsealed:
What about LL every 5k? Or not worth it?
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i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'
They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.
Hi T_T,
This is really interesting. I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear. How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?
My 2.5 year old 2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime. The services have occurred every 16-17k. My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited drive at the weekend. I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.
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I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times :lipsrsealed:
Huh - the LL oil is proven by way of VWs own test standards to be way better than ANY T&D oil. Why do you think that the T&D oil has now been discontinued at all VW and Audi stealers.
By all means, if you drive your car hard, then change it every 5k miles, but please do use LL3 oils (and only LL3 oils from either Castrol, Fuchs or Motul - don't bother with Mobil 1 ESP, or any other 'questionable' oils). :wink: :smiley:
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I beginning to think that time/distance oil every 5k miles is better than using the LL every 10k miles one as I drive the car enthusiastically at times :lipsrsealed:
What about LL every 5k? Or not worth it?
If you drive it hard, then yes. That is exactly what I do.
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Fantastic T_T!
I have Castrol LL3 oil 5W30 (I think) bought from VW dealer.
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i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'
They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.
Hi T_T,
This is really interesting. I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear.
How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?
Right - there are much higher 'forces' associated with the FSI HPFP - it has a relatively 'strong' return spring in the pump, when compared to relatively 'weak' return springs for the normal inlet and exhaust valves. The FSI HPFP is basically putting similar loads onto the camshaft which the unit injectors of the PD diesels do (take a close look at a PD injector, and they have strong springs too). So, understanding that they (PD injectors and FSI HPFP) have much beefier springs, and also understaning how a camshaft applies its loads - this places a unique requirement on the lubricant. The camshaft is the only component in the engine which places large 'sheer' demands on the lubricant film - this is true in 'normal' engines (ie, non-PD and non-FSI - which just operate inlet and exhaust valves - ok, the elderly pedants out there will also state the very old skool manual fuel lift pumps, but these had a very weak return spring, and were normally used on engines where the camshaft was mounted in the block, and not head-mounted overhead cams :tongue:) - but this 'sheer' demand is massively higher on PD engines (and the derv-heads will know about the specific PD-only oils), and this is also true of FSI engines too.
OK, with the above thoroughly digested and understood - we now move onto the specifics of lubricants. If you look at the first post in this thread: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779 - and scroll down to the bit under the "Engine Oils" heading, you will see I describe briefly the different Volkswagen testing 'standards' for the oils. For a genuine LongLife 3 oil, it must comply with two VW standards - 504.00 (this is a petrol engine standard) and 507.00 (and this is for diesels) (there may also be other non-VW standards too, such as the ACEA A3 and B4, but these are not relevent to this particular point of discussion). Now, open your glovebox and open the second from last booklet (providing all the books are there) - should be titled something like "GTI Technical Data", and search for the oil requirments. You will see that it gives three VW standards of oils - for the LongLife service regime: 503.00 and 504.00, and for Time and Distance regime: 502.00 (and also includes the LongLife oils too). So, to take the LL3 oil, you will see that the GTI requirement matches the 504.00. Because ALL Volkswagen oil standards are 'backwards compatible', the current 504.00 petrol engine standard will also comply with 503.01, 503.00, 502.00, 501.01 etc, and the same for the diesel standards. So if we now specifically look at the "502.00" oils so vhermently 'recommended' by the Yanks, and also understanding that VW-specced oils are generally are 'dual fuel' (one oil is formulated for use in petrol and diesels - just like the LL3 oil) - then you will find that virtually all 502.00 oils will only have the diesel spec of 505.00. This is a crucial observation for FSI engines, becuase the derv-heads will know that 505.00 is NOT rated for the PD diesel - so, in basic terms, 502.00 oils have NOT been tested (nor designed for) any 'high sheer loads'. OK, there are a small minority of 502.00 oils which do meet the higher diesel spec of 505.01 - but these are always sold as "PD diesel engine oils", or "Turbo Diesel engine oil" or similar, and are generally much more expensive than a non 505.01 oil.
So, in summary - a "Time and Distance" oil does NOT have any 'high sheer' abilites needed for the FSI HPFP, whereas the LongLife oils (LongLife 2 and LongLife 3) do.
My 2.5 year old 2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime. The services have occurred every 16-17k. My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited drive at the weekend. I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.
Well, provided the car has always been serviced when the SID pings you, and not been fiddled with and reset like some other forums seem to adamantly recommend, then it should be OK. Can I ask why your GTI was set to LongLife servicing? Was it some requirement of the lease company?
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TT - just on a side note. My R32 is on long life. I assumed VW know the best for their cars (do they really? :sad:) so it never even crossed my mind to question why or why not my R32 was on long life. She now has 32k miles on the clock and just had the second long life service. Never had a problem with it. I guess what I am asking is, if I had another R32 and it mirrors the history of my long life one (ie same sort of driving, miles etc) would I expect any positivies or negatives when comparing an R32 on long life against a mirrored one on time and distance?
Perhaps another question then is, what criteria deterimines why VW decide to put a car on time and distance or on long life?
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TT - just on a side note. My R32 is on long life. I assumed VW know the best for their cars (do they really? :sad:)
Volkswagen Group in Germany do know what is best for their cars - however, this knowledge seems to vanish when it crosses the English Channel. :rolleyes: Volkswagen UK (along with Audi UK and the other VAG UK companies) also know the correct info - because they actually publish it in detail in their sales brochures. The big problem lays with the stealers who just don't seem to understand plain english, but also the problem then can be pointed back at VW UK, because they seem to be completely unable at regulating any kind of 'technical proficiency' by their own franchised stealers - and it is the stealers where the 'joe-public' tend to get their info from! :rolleyes:
so it never even crossed my mind to question why or why not my R32 was on long life. She now has 32k miles on the clock and just had the second long life service. Never had a problem with it. I guess what I am asking is, if I had another R32 and it mirrors the history of my long life one (ie same sort of driving, miles etc) would I expect any positivies or negatives when comparing an R32 on long life against a mirrored one on time and distance?
OK, there are two 'extreme ends', and a 'grey area' somewhere in the middle of most scenarios - and the same is for LongLife servicing. So to 'plot' these requirments:
(a) 100% OK for LL servicing > (b) 75% OK for LL serv > (c) 50:50 for LL or T&D > (d) 75% for TD (shouldn't really use LL) > (e) 100% T&D (you are a numpty if you use LL serv)
And to match these with engines and driving styles:
- a: would be suitable for all diesel engines, even those with a turbo (but not modified), and driven in a 'normal' manner (ie, not bouncing of the rev limiter in every gear, but with an occasional 'clear out' when warm)
- b: TDIs, with very minor mods but driven normally (say a mild remap or a cat back zorst), petrol engines withOUT turbo and no mods, driven normaly
- c: mildly modded TDIs with a heavy right foot, mildly moded non-turbo petrols driven normally, standard turbo petrols driven hard-ish, standard turbo petrols if driven by a granny
- d: heavily modded TDIs, or other TDIs driven very hard, mildly modded petrols (turbo & non-turbo) driven moderately, heavily moded petrols driven like a granny
- e: standard turbo petrols when driven hard, heavily modded turbo petrols (even if driven like a granny), any engine where you thrash it to within an inch of its life (you really should be at least evey 5k miles!)
Hmmm, I think I have covered most scenarios. But I have a feeling I may need to do some tweaking after a re-think. Discuss . . . :wink:
Perhaps another question then is, what criteria deterimines why VW decide to put a car on time and distance or on long life?
Read this: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779
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After absorbing information exchanged between myself and TT in pm's, and further backed up by his above post.. I could never really recommend LL regime for ANY R32. I'm certainly having mine put onto T&D when it goes in for the next service.
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Thanks for all that TT, it made very interesting and in some respects slightly worrying reading for my R32. I certainly didnt buy my R32 to drive it like a granny so I would class myself as regularly having some 'spirited' driving sessions. ie I should be on T&D :shocked:
So......I should be on T&D and not long life..... I agree with the above also. My opinion is now that any GTI or R32 should in 99% of the cases should be on T&D.
Now here comes the icing on the cake. My R32 is out of warranty in October 2009. Where do I stand with my stealer given the fact I have been put on the incorrect servicing regime. I am more thinking of this further down the line should anything go wrong with my car once the warranty has expired...... :undecided:
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After absorbing information exchanged between myself and TT in pm's, and further backed up by his above post.. I could never really recommend LL regime for ANY R32. I'm certainly having mine put onto T&D when it goes in for the next service.
Individual driving styles are probably more important. I am sure there are many peeps who by an R32 just for a "pose factor", and others simply buy it because it is the "top of the range". And some of these will never get near the red line, they will drive it like a limosine, stick to the speed limits, never take part in 'traffic light grand prix' - oh, and just occasionaly reach 80mph on the motorway. Fot those types, the LL regime would still be perfectly acceptable, and I honestly doubt that any more damage was done by the LL regime, providing they use the correct oil.
But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed' :wink:, then T&D would be best. LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.
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Thanks for all that TT, it made very interesting and in some respects slightly worrying reading for my R32. I certainly didnt buy my R32 to drive it like a granny so I would class myself as regularly having some 'spirited' driving sessions. ie I should be on T&D :shocked:
OK, even 'spirited driving' can be open to conjecture.
I might class spirited driving something like: drive sedately whilst cold, wait for the coolant to reach normal operating temp, then wait another few minutes/miles for the oil to get warm. Shove the stick to manual, pedal to the metal and wait for the DSG to change on the rev limiter, and be last of the 'late brakers', outbraking lewis hamilton at every bend. :evil:
Wheras someone else might class spirited as: car/coolant/oil warm, roads clear and dry - come to a favourite road - oh lets take it up to 4,000 rpm in third and see what she does! :grin: Even IAM styles of driving can appear to be 'spirited driving' - so it is very much 'how long is a piece of string'.
The most crucial bit - and which can do the most damage - is how you treat your engine when it is cold. One of my neigbours literally ruins the engines in every single car she has - whatever time of day (she works funny shifts), ice or baking sun, she is in reverse gear accelerating at nigh-on full bore, before she has even released the ignition key to start the engine. She is the only person I know who can ruin camshaft bearings in a month! :shocked:
A good rule of thumb, when the engine is cold - never more than 3,000 revs, and never more than half throttle. Wait until the coolant guage reaches normal, and then allow a "few" more minutes for the oil to reach the correct operating temps - few is a bit loose - but it all depends on the quantity of oil in your sump. The GTI has 4.6 litres, and generally heats up roughly at the same time as the coolant. But my RS4 has 10.0 litres of oil in the sump, and that can take another 10 minutes after the coolant!
So......I should be on T&D and not long life..... I agree with the above also. My opinion is now that any GTI or R32 should in 99% of the cases should be on T&D.
Agreed. All VAG stealers, by 'default' automatically set the regime to LongLife. However, I would argue that ALL performance models, ie Audi S and RS models (and the mighty R8 :wink:), VW GTIs and Rs, Skoda vRSs, and Seat 'Cupras' - should all be set by default to T&D. If the customer then asks about LL servicing, they should be clearly told about the strict requirements and limitiations of use for LL. Maybe get them to sign a disclaimer or sommat.
Now here comes the icing on the cake. My R32 is out of warranty in October 2009. Where do I stand with my stealer given the fact I have been put on the incorrect servicing regime. I am more thinking of this further down the line should anything go wrong with my car once the warranty has expired...... :undecided:
As in taking any action against the stealer? Then not a chance. They will probably just say sommat like "the speed limit in the UK is 70mph, and that is well within the capabilites of the R32" ! :rolleyes:
In all honesty, if anything does go wrong with your car prematurely (and I mean problems with the engine caused by 'suspect' lubrication), then it is more likely to be 'user error'. Ask yourself honestly, how often do you lift the bonnet and check the oil, and how often do you check the tyre pressures (including the pram wheel spare)? Me, bonnet opened daily, tyres weekly (pram spare every two months) - and my oil level never goes below 2/3rds on the dipstick. Anal, yes, but I know my engine bay like the back of my hand.
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[quote author]
But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed' :wink:, then T&D would be best. LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.
[/quote]
I had best be speaking to my dealer then soon see if I can get it changed over. A bit too many 'traffic light grand prix' for me :laugh:
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[quote author]
But if you by an R32, and use it 'as designed' :wink:, then T&D would be best. LL may be OK, but it is a bit boarderline IMHO.
I had best be speaking to my dealer then soon see if I can get it changed over. A bit too many 'traffic light grand prix' for me :laugh:
[/quote]
Trouble is, by doing that, you can actually cause more damage. When was it last serviced (how many miles ago and how many months ago)? And what does the SID (Service Interval Display) say when you call it up manually?
EDIT: edited for clarity (to explain what 'SID' means)
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It was serviced last week at 32k miles. That was the second long life service. The first one was at 17k miles i think :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:. Maybe I should just leave it on long life then? At my desk in work here so cant get out just yet to see what its showing for miles left until service.
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It was serviced last week at 32k miles. That was the second long life service. The first one was at 17k miles i think :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:. Maybe I should just leave it on long life then? At my desk in work here so cant get out just yet to see what its showing for miles left until service.
OK, you are in luck. Because it was only done a week ago, by changing it now to T&D, you won't mess with any 'mid-cycle LL' readings for the SID. :cool:
So when you next get to the car, the 'manual call-up' SID test should read sommat like 720 days or 19000 miles to next serv.
Because it is so close after the serv, if you carry out the manual SID reset, as described in the maintenance sub forum, it will just change it to T&D for you, and the stealer wont even need to know. Then in 12 months time (or 10k miles if you are a high miler), when you fone the stealer to book it in, and they query about the LL, just tell them that you now want it done on T&D (but still make sure they use the LL brew oil). :wink:
EDIT: edited for clarity (and for my numpty mistake: 10 miles > 10k miles)
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Ok good stuff!! Thanks for the advice.
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Presuming the car gets serviced every 10k, would I have to get the oil change at every 5k done by dealer, or could I do it elsewhere without anyone knowing?
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i also think the problem with sludging on the old 1.8 20v t was also down to the small sump, for some reason this helped to create the 'sludging'
They did similar with the PD engines, and are repeating this with the GTI engine, with the FSI high pressure pump cam lobe wear.
Hi T_T,
This is really interesting. I thought the weak point with the cam lobe wear was the HPFP Cam Follower which is wearing prematurely and causing the HPFP to come into direct contact with the cam lobe hence causing the wear.
How would the use of LL3 oil prevent this?
Right - there are much higher 'forces' associated with the FSI HPFP - it has a relatively 'strong' return spring in the pump, when compared to relatively 'weak' return springs for the normal inlet and exhaust valves. The FSI HPFP is basically putting similar loads onto the camshaft which the unit injectors of the PD diesels do (take a close look at a PD injector, and they have strong springs too). So, understanding that they (PD injectors and FSI HPFP) have much beefier springs, and also understaning how a camshaft applies its loads - this places a unique requirement on the lubricant. The camshaft is the only component in the engine which places large 'sheer' demands on the lubricant film - this is true in 'normal' engines (ie, non-PD and non-FSI - which just operate inlet and exhaust valves - ok, the elderly pedants out there will also state the very old skool manual fuel lift pumps, but these had a very weak return spring, and were normally used on engines where the camshaft was mounted in the block, and not head-mounted overhead cams :tongue:) - but this 'sheer' demand is massively higher on PD engines (and the derv-heads will know about the specific PD-only oils), and this is also true of FSI engines too.
OK, with the above thoroughly digested and understood - we now move onto the specifics of lubricants. If you look at the first post in this thread: http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=65779 - and scroll down to the bit under the "Engine Oils" heading, you will see I describe briefly the different Volkswagen testing 'standards' for the oils. For a genuine LongLife 3 oil, it must comply with two VW standards - 504.00 (this is a petrol engine standard) and 507.00 (and this is for diesels) (there may also be other non-VW standards too, such as the ACEA A3 and B4, but these are not relevent to this particular point of discussion). Now, open your glovebox and open the second from last booklet (providing all the books are there) - should be titled something like "GTI Technical Data", and search for the oil requirments. You will see that it gives three VW standards of oils - for the LongLife service regime: 503.00 and 504.00, and for Time and Distance regime: 502.00 (and also includes the LongLife oils too). So, to take the LL3 oil, you will see that the GTI requirement matches the 504.00. Because ALL Volkswagen oil standards are 'backwards compatible', the current 504.00 petrol engine standard will also comply with 503.01, 503.00, 502.00, 501.01 etc, and the same for the diesel standards. So if we now specifically look at the "502.00" oils so vhermently 'recommended' by the Yanks, and also understanding that VW-specced oils are generally are 'dual fuel' (one oil is formulated for use in petrol and diesels - just like the LL3 oil) - then you will find that virtually all 502.00 oils will only have the diesel spec of 505.00. This is a crucial observation for FSI engines, becuase the derv-heads will know that 505.00 is NOT rated for the PD diesel - so, in basic terms, 502.00 oils have NOT been tested (nor designed for) any 'high sheer loads'. OK, there are a small minority of 502.00 oils which do meet the higher diesel spec of 505.01 - but these are always sold as "PD diesel engine oils", or "Turbo Diesel engine oil" or similar, and are generally much more expensive than a non 505.01 oil.
So, in summary - a "Time and Distance" oil does NOT have any 'high sheer' abilites needed for the FSI HPFP, whereas the LongLife oils (LongLife 2 and LongLife 3) do.
My 2.5 year old 2.0 TFSI (company car) is approaching 60k miles now and has been serviced on the LL regime. The services have occurred every 16-17k. My mileage consists of 95% motorway miles and the occasional spirited drive at the weekend. I am thinking of buying the car at the end of the lease so with this in mind do you think my service intervals have been appropriate for the type of use the car has had.
Well, provided the car has always been serviced when the SID pings you, and not been fiddled with and reset like some other forums seem to adamantly recommend, then it should be OK. Can I ask why your GTI was set to LongLife servicing? Was it some requirement of the lease company?
Thanks T_T this is really helpful, I have now learned my new thing(s) for today :)
Yes it was the lease company's decision to put it on the LL regime, unfortunately I had no choice in that.
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Presuming the car gets serviced every 10k, would I have to get the oil change at every 5k done by dealer, or could I do it elsewhere without anyone knowing?
I don't quite get what you mean? Is there something in that bit, where I should be "reading between the lines"? :huh:
Anyhow, is your service reminder (correct term - "Service Interval Display", abbreviated "SID") set to LongLife or Time and Distance? If it is set to LL, then it is strongly advised to have it changed to T&D, because of the complications (confusion of the Oil Quality Sensor) of the LL algorithm.
If you are on T&D, and want to do an 'in-between' 5k oil change, then anyone can do this, you can even do it yourself if you have a pair of ramps, a drain pan, a 19mm socket for the sump plug, and a 36mm 6-point socket for the filter housing - oh, and a torque wrench - but then EVERYONE owns a torque wrench, don't they!
If you do change it yourself, if you don't have a special VW tool to pre-drain the oil fliter housing, then it can get a bit messy - but a few sheets of workshop paper roll, or even your mrs old knickers, if you are that way inclined :evil: will mop up the mess. And you will need 4.6 litres - so if you buy Castrol in Halfrauds, it only comes in 4 litre packs, so get an extra litre bottle - or just get two 4 litre packs, and use the left overs for topping up (or the next time you change the oil).
Part numbers for 'hardware' (prices retail +vat):
N 908 132 02 - oil sump drain plug with integrated sealing washer - £1.08
06D 115 562 - oil filter element kit (includes disposable element and rubber o-ring) - £8.73, or £4.80 trade
Part numbers for oil (again, +vat):
GVW 052 195 M2 - 1 litre of "VW branded" (with a little VW logo on the bottle - they also do an Audi one too) official VW LL3 engine oil - £14.37, or £7.90 trade
G 052 195 M4 - 5 litre of official VW LL3 engine oil - £64.42, or £35.43 trade (which is £7.09 per litre)
ZGB 115 QLB 005 00 - 1 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £5.11 trade (these Quantum prices are last years, so a very minor increase is expected)
ZGB 115 QLB 005 01 - 5 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £24.19 trade (which is £4.84 per litre)
ZGB 115 QLB 005 02 - 20 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £86.02 trade (which is £4.30 per litre)
"Quantum" is the official Volkswagen UK 'aftermarket' range (just like Motorcraft to Ford). Quantum oils are made by Castrol (and include the same Castrol technical helpline), and are similar in spec (but not identical) to the 'retail' Castrol products in Halfrauds, Opie Oils, and the likes - but much cheaper! :wink:
Sooooo - who says proper LongLife 3 oils are expensive? :tongue: :smug:
EDIT: edited for spelling, clarity of Quantum oils
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I don't quite get what you mean? Is there something in that bit, where I should be "reading between the lines"? :huh:
Basically, the car needs to have a FVWSH, which means for every service, I should take it down to the stealers and get it done (they supply another car that I can use, which is almost essential in my work).
But don't know whether the oil change would need to be done by a VW dealer or VW-approved garage, or whether I could do it instead.
At the mo, I believe the car is set on LL as default, when I went to the dealer for some fluids I asked. But I do too many short journeys as well as long ones, so it needs to be on T&D. They said to bring it in around January and they'll do the service and change it too. Unfortunately, couldn't get a slot in Jan so it's gonna be done in Feb! Whilst that'll be fine for LL, I have no idea how it would impact for me to then change it to T&D servicing.
57-plate. Car was reg'd in Jan 08, bought by me 2nd hand at 3k and it now has 9k.
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I'm with TT on this one. Mine is on T&D, and covers approx 7K miles bewteen every annual service.
The only thing that really matters in your engine is the oil and filter, I know people will argue all day and night, but just think of how many starts, cold and hot, how many times those little pistons go up and down, how hot that turbo gets, all that combustion muck, how it has to start at both -10C and +30C.........now most people are on this forum because they have a real interest in their car, or would like too if they are novices and looking for advice........so do you really want to treat the most stressed part of your pride and joy to an oil change every 16k or so miles or maybe 2 years...........nah I didn't think so.
Its the biggest false economy you can make on any car let alone one with a reasonably tuned lump.
:wink:
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Sorry to bring this up again.
Need to buy some oil tonight and just wanted to make 100% i get the right stuff from the dealer.
I am on T&D so do i need LL3 oil 5W30?
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Sorry to bring this up again.
Need to buy some oil tonight and just wanted to make 100% i get the right stuff from the dealer.
I am on T&D so do i need LL3 oil 5W30?
If you want what is best, then yes.
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ZGB 115 QLB 005 01 - 5 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £24.19 trade (which is £4.84 per litre)
Is this the Oil i need for T+D servicing then? Where can i get this from GSF?
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You can only get Quantum from VW dealers or TPS.
GSF sell Fuchs, its called Titan GT1 LL3 and has 504.00 and 507.00 in a red box on the bottom of the label. The part number is 98091A for 4L and 98091 for 1L (just found the receipt).
Poor Teutonic_Tamer, I can't believe you actually had the patience to answer the same question across 9 pages! I would've given up many pages ago!
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Poor Teutonic_Tamer, I can't believe you actually had the patience to answer the same question across 9 pages! I would've given up many pages ago!
Here here - well done TT :wink:
Cass
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ZGB 115 QLB 005 01 - 5 litre of official Quantum LL3 engine oil - £24.19 trade (which is £4.84 per litre)
Is this the Oil i need for T+D servicing then? Where can i get this from GSF?
But the Quantum oil isn't 'officially' approved by Volkswagen Germany!
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You can only get Quantum from VW dealers or TPS.
Not really correct. GSF and ECP usually sell Quantum brews - infact, any indpendent trader can sell it, just like most sell Motorcraft and GM oils. :smug:
GSF sell Fuchs, its called Titan GT1 LL3 and has 504.00 and 507.00 in a red box on the bottom of the label. The part number is 98091A for 4L and 98091 for 1L (just found the receipt).
Fuchs is excellent stuff. If I could find a competative trade supplier, I'd be using it. :wink:
Poor Teutonic_Tamer, I can't believe you actually had the patience to answer the same question across 9 pages! I would've given up many pages ago!
Well, for some peeps, you just have to keep repeating till it gets through! :wink:
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Hi, new here - Found this thread via google. I would just like to say thanks to T_T for clearing up a hell of alot of confusion with the oil/servicing for my MKV R32 and I have an issue after its recent service, where its been switched from LL to T&D without being given any reason or explaination by the VW dealer.
The biggest concern for me now is all the invoice says is "10w-40", nothing else. No VAG oil standard, no brand, no part number, nothing apart from the viscosity. It rasied an eyebrow, as its quite a heavy grade for a modern petrol engine. I'm now thinking this is not the right oil for my engine.
I noted the "reccomended oils" by both OATs, Castrol and Quantum's (TPS) website (data supplied by OATs anyway) says to use the same LL3 504.00 spec oil for both LL and T&D services. Further more the below quote has set alarm bells ringing:
Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Yup, spot on. From 2009 calendar year, for cars of model year 2001 and newer, all cars (petrol and diesel) irrespective of service regime, will only use LongLife 3 oils.
And if you have an oil burner with a DPF, then you MUST only use LongLife 3 oils, even on the T&D service.
OK, so by that reckoning 10w-40 will NOT be LL3 oil (it'll be a semi-synth at best). And therefore incorrect for my car. Be it LL or T&D servicing.
If this is the case, and if this is official info via VAG HQ, then why have the dealers ignored this advice?
Can you provide any VAG sourced info or TSB backing up the said change in oil used for servicing for post 2001 cars??? As it would be great to print it out and show it the dealer to ask for an explaination on why they ignored this.
I'm dropping the car off at the dealers later today for more warranty work (another can of worms: Bill to VW is over £4K so far :shocked: ) so suffice to say the dealers are loving me at the moment. :wink:
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Hi, new here - Found this thread via google. I would just like to say thanks to T_T for clearing up a hell of alot of confusion with the oil/servicing for my MKV R32 and I have an issue after its recent service, where its been switched from LL to T&D without being given any reason or explaination by the VW dealer.
Hi Ali, and welcome to the forum. :smiley: :smiley:
The biggest concern for me now is all the invoice says is "10w-40", nothing else. No VAG oil standard, no brand, no part number, nothing apart from the viscosity. It rasied an eyebrow, as its quite a heavy grade for a modern petrol engine. I'm now thinking this is not the right oil for my engine.
I would go and create merry hell with them. A VW dealer using an utterly non-approved oil . . . that sh!t they have used wants draining ASAP, and filling with the correct VW spec oil, from a 'top' oil manufacturer.
I noted the "reccomended oils" by both OATs, Castrol and Quantum's (TPS) website (data supplied by OATs anyway) says to use the same LL3 504.00 spec oil for both LL and T&D services. Further more the below quote has set alarm bells ringing:
Interesting post here - just in - Glenn post number 3:
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98307.0
Yup, spot on. From 2009 calendar year, for cars of model year 2001 and newer, all cars (petrol and diesel) irrespective of service regime, will only use LongLife 3 oils.
And if you have an oil burner with a DPF, then you MUST only use LongLife 3 oils, even on the T&D service.
OK, so by that reckoning 10w-40 will NOT be LL3 oil (it'll be a semi-synth at best).
Yup, at the very best, that will be Quantum Synta, which is a low grade semi-synthetic - but it ONLY approved for diesel engines - and it is NOT approved for ANY VW workshop use at all.
And therefore incorrect for my car. Be it LL or T&D servicing.
Correct, no good at all for your car.
If this is the case, and if this is official info via VAG HQ, then why have the dealers ignored this advice?
Why do you think they are know as 'stealers'. Times are hard, and they need to make a fast buck anyway they can. Virtually all VW stealers seem to be pulling the same trick of not using the correct oil! I suppose they know that for 90% of the time, they can just get away with it! :angry:
Can you provide any VAG sourced info or TSB backing up the said change in oil used for servicing for post 2001 cars??? As it would be great to print it out and show it the dealer to ask for an explaination on why they ignored this.
Ask them to load up the ETKA page, input your VIN, then look at the 'engines' section of your specific car (which will be automatically selected after inputting the VIN into ETKA) - and it will clearly state that only 504.00 oil should be used. :wink: Then ask them to do the same with ELSA . . . . :wink:
The official Volkswagen Group secure dealer network was advised around July last year that the ONLY oil for workshop use from December 2008 was to be LL3 oil. Unfortunately, whilst I can access this, I can't print it - unless someone knows how to crack the sealed media code? :undecided:
I'm dropping the car off at the dealers later today for more warranty work (another can of worms: Bill to VW is over £4K so far :shocked: ) so suffice to say the dealers are loving me at the moment. :wink:
You arn't alone. Just stand your ground, and be prepared to name and shame if they don't rectify the issue.
HTH, and keep us updated. :smiley:
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Thanks T_T
As I suspected.
I questioned the dealer before I read your reply, and they are adamant that the oil is the correct oil for the car. Anyway, I don't have much faith in them at the moment as they are unable to diagnose and fix the clunking noise from the transmission (despite a new clutch and flywheel that made no difference). The oil is just the icing on the cake (at least I can fix that myself if need be).
Happy days :angry:
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Ali, report the stealer to Volkswagen UK, and also Volkswagen Germany -
because that oil will fcuk up the turbo - and then it will 'tarnish' the reputation of the VW brand. Care to name and shame?
EDIT: Whoops, just re-read this thread, and realised you have an R32, which is sans-turbo! :embarassed:
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I called my dealer & asked them to confirm if the GTI I have just bought was on LL or TD, they stated LL & therefore I should use their own 'special' oil to top up...................Called in for for a top up bottle & it was Mobil 1 after all that ......£14/ltr too!
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I called my dealer & asked them to confirm if the GTI I have just bought was on LL or TD, they stated LL & therefore I should use their own 'special' oil to top up...................Called in for for a top up bottle & it was Mobil 1 after all that ......£14/ltr too!
Is the Mobil stuff the '5w30 ESP formula'?
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I called my dealer & asked them to confirm if the GTI I have just bought was on LL or TD, they stated LL & therefore I should use their own 'special' oil to top up...................Called in for for a top up bottle & it was Mobil 1 after all that ......£14/ltr too!
Is the Mobil stuff the '5w30 ESP formula'?
Yep thats the stuff they sold me............ Is it ok?
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I called my dealer & asked them to confirm if the GTI I have just bought was on LL or TD, they stated LL & therefore I should use their own 'special' oil to top up...................Called in for for a top up bottle & it was Mobil 1 after all that ......£14/ltr too!
Is the Mobil stuff the '5w30 ESP formula'?
Yep thats the stuff they sold me............ Is it ok?
Yeah, that is OK - all though there are better brews. :wink:
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Great read there TT :cool:
Being in this market and selling oils (Dad owns a Oil company) I found your thoughts to be exactly identical to both mine and my dad's.
I have a question. What are your thoughts on the Liqui Moly Oils?
Mike
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Being in this market and selling oils (Dad owns a Oil company)
Are you sure he doesn't just sell it? :grin:
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:laugh:
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Great read there TT :cool:
You know me by now - I just try and post the facts, :nerd: and 'bust the myths'. :wink:
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
Being in this market and selling oils (Dad owns a Oil company) I found your thoughts to be exactly identical to both mine and my dad's.
Cool - I have taught you well, then! :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
BTW, hope your dads company is doing OK in these harsh economic times. :smiley: And did you ever get to the bottom of the burning smell on your Pajero? :undecided:
I have a question. What are your thoughts on the Liqui Moly Oils?
Mike
Hmmmmmmmm . . . . . Liqui Moly . . . . . I can't make up my mind with them. :undecided:
I have some very serious concerns with the way they use PTFE in their oils (though weather they use it in all their brews is open to question, I just don't know the answer to that) - and PTFE, also known as 'Teflon', has been proven to be BAD in engine oils! Ironically, though, PTFE is actually classed as 'synthetic' - simply because it is 'man-made' - and this can therefore still comply with the European Union term of 'synthetic'! :undecided:
But on the other hand, Liqui Moly are a German oil company, and do actually have a TÃœV approval. But the TÃœV approval might not be granted on the actual 'quality' of the oil - it may simply be granted on the consistency of their manufacturing processes - just like the original BS5750. And just because it is 'German', it doesn't somehow guarantee any kind of 'excellence' - Lidl, also German, sell a 'German' oil called 'SuperFormula WinErgy' - but I wouldn't put that in the same league as say Fuchs or Pentosin. :wink:
So the jury is very much undecided - and I could not recommend Liqui Moly over, say Fuchs, Castrol or Motul.
HTH :smiley:
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Thanks TT.
Liqui Moly as far as I know doesnt actually use PTFE. They use Moly / MOS2 (Obviously) but in their marketing they are very very quick to mention they dont use Teflon. I must chat to Uwe Krugel the designer about the Teflon issue you raised as being his wholesaler he isnt allowed to lie to me :cool:
Their additives use Boron Nitrite which is pretty high spec. I dont think any of the Oils have this.
Their synthetics are group 4 PAO's so in essence they are extremely good oils with all the approvals. Their Fully Synthetics (5W40, 0W40 etc) are group 5.
The reason I ask is because I am in charge of the LM range here and we have had the Liqui Moly Oils perform better then Mobil, Fuchs and even Royal Purple Lubes down here. This has surprised both my dad and myself and the people who have used it.
I believe Liqui Moly has quite a presence in Europe and mostly Germany.
Mike
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The smell with the Pajero is gone. We have no clue what caused it but it has sorted itself out. The Pajero is hardly used these days as the father decided to invest in some Stuttgart created transport and the Pajero now sleeps outside :evil:
Mike