GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => The garage => Topic started by: G0LF_GT1_TURB0 on 19 September 2011, 10:27
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just seen this, i know its a few years old, but it has got me thinking of keeping my standard valve instead ?? any recent proof that the J 'actually' works ?
http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/262428/1740332.aspx
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I think Dom69 has fitted one!
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i might need a new N75, the J valved is a replacement, nick at carbon checked on Etka whilst i was their (we were looking at the one for my engine which is a F valve) it said replace with the J valve. thats the latest one..
so i assume if the one on your car is broke you just replace with the latest version which is J ?
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Usually the letters on the end mean it superceded to an updated version.
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The N75J K H valves cause the turbo to over boost to give the feeling of a BIGGER kick of power, for everyone not running the OEM N75 stock or mapped can you do some logs and post your results up?
Plot of an AUM with N75C valve as you can see the boost plots are following the remap requested levels, which is correct to the mapping and is correct.
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh252/Rtechremaps/n75clog.jpg)
Same car same mapping BUT with the N75J fitted now over boosts to 2270Mb from the requested 2000mb... Just a quick cheat to make power, but the ecu will soon learn over time, so when you first fit the J the boost kicks hard, then over a period of time will end up where it should be. (until battery disconected or adaptions reset)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh252/Rtechremaps/n75jlog.jpg)
It would be cheaper and better to change the max load map from 157% to 174% in the mapping to take the requested boot to 2270mb instead of adding a and uncontrolled boost spike?
The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.
Edit H J K designed for bigger slower spooling turbos such as the ko4, and C F E smaller quicker spooling turbos or car with high dc n75 maps)
Fitting a H J K valve to a k03 turbo and ecu will induce a turbo faster spool and more over boost in the mid range, but the ecu soon adapts and pulls the boost back in to line which can be seen on the N75 logs. The H J K valves will reduce the power at the top end againback to back you can see the n75dc working harder to maintain boost. Its the feeling of a kick which the H J K valves give the smaller turbo which makes ther driver feel like the car is faster, but at the end of the day the average power it about the same, in some cases lower. The ecu is designed to meet load/boost once this load has been meet the ecu will cut the boost back via boost controller PIDS, which are there to stop boost over/under shoot oscillations (not an easy ecu to fool)
For all of you who want to understand boost pids here is a copy of a wiki page for me7 tuning.
(Just to note the PID I is what I use to give the car the kick of boost or linear boost depending on the mapping and customers needs)
Boost PID
If your actual boost is not meeting requested boost, you may have to increase the PID I limit between 2250 and 5000 RPM for 850 and 1000mBar:
KFLDIMX - LDR I-Regulator limit
To go along with KFTARX above, there is another IAT correction that ME7.1 uses to allow the PID to add waste-gate duty cycle at elevated IATs. You may want to zero it all out:
LDIATA - LDR I-Regulator limit as a function of IAT
If you aren't using K03s, you may have to tweak the PID response. Note: this is NOT used to adjust requested boost. It is used to compensate for different waste-gate responses.
KFLDRL - Map for linearization of boost pressure = f(TV). This is the post-PID waste-gate duty correction table.
LDRQ0S - LDR PID Q0 in static operation (proportional term)
LDRQ1ST - LDR PID Q1 in static operation (integral term)
KFLDRQ2 - LDR PID Q2 (differential term)
KFLDRL can also be used to get open-loop type behavior for operation past the MAP and requested boost limit by making the output duty cycle unresponsive (flat) to uncorrected duty cycle (from the PID) at various RPM/DC points. Again, if you do this, make sure to leave DSLOFS at the stock value! This way, requested boost will always be higher than measured boost, and you will stay in open loop control.
With after market or external waste-gates flat line the map at something like 25% until your turbo should be spooled and then taper off to 10% at areas if higher load and RPM. Log requested vs. actual boost to see where you need to adjust KFLDRL to line things up. The higher your after market waste-gate spring pre-load the lower the WGDC you will need to accurately control boost.
If you don't get all of this just right, and your actual boost goes too far above requested boost (by ~200mBar), you may experience overboost throttle cut, which is ME attempting to get boost back under control by temporarily closing the throttle plate.
Alternately, if your requested boost is far too high for a given load/rpm point, you may experience positive deviation (underboost) limp mode.
Many hours go into getting the boost pids correct.
IMO £90 for a valve to give that feeling is a waste of money, as its only a 5 min job to change the boost PIDs in the mapping to give the same effect and actually make more average power with out tailing off at the top end.
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I think Dom69 has fitted one!
I do indeed, I also have a dyno plot of a standard N75 fitted. Following the RR day I will also have an after plot, I'm expecting the N75J to smooth the graph out, especially at around 3500 rpm :smiley:
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Just to further this, here is my car running the standard N75:
(http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy183/codling1234/DOM.gif)
Here is another forum member's car with exactly the same map but running an N75J valve:
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6166/stusdub.gif)
Note how my flat spot at 3500rpm isn't present on the second graph :smiley:
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Smoother in the mid range but dips off at 4900rpm, but was the runs vs the old N75F and a new J?
Will you be trying a run with a brand new N75F aswell? It would be nice to see runs back to back with all valves
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I will try and get a AUM to borrow and load it with a Revo trial map and test all the valves (brand new) back to back with dyno logs.
Here are Wellys tests with the valves on an K04-023.
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/101557-n75j-n75c-mbc-comparison-graphs.html
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Smoother in the mid range but dips off at 4900rpm, but was the runs vs the old N75F and a new J?
Will you be trying a run with a brand new N75F aswell? It would be nice to see runs back to back with all valves
Yeah it's an old 'F' vs new 'J', If anyone there on the day has a new 'F' then we can swap them over & do back to back runs, however unless that's the case then we'll have to settle for old 'F' vs new 'J', I'll have both with me on the day so we can do back to back runs if need be.
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I will try and get a AUM to borrow and load it with a Revo trial map and test all the valves (brand new) back to back with dyno logs.
Here are Wellys tests with the valves on an K04-023.
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-forum-8l-chassis/101557-n75j-n75c-mbc-comparison-graphs.html
That'd be interesting to see, however will the effects of the 'J' valve be determined to an extent upon the map?
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That'd be interesting to see, however will the effects of the 'J' valve be determined to an extent upon the map?
[/quote]
I think the logs will help show whats going on, I will try a few maps, Stock , R-Tech, Revo and a basic unknow generic map.
Yet more play time to come.. :smiley:
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The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.
Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags
my S3 AMK K04 lump comes with a F and i called Audi, yep its standard but old and now been superseded with the J valve
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The AMKs using the E as a upgrade revision could also be running another ECU code as a few of the AMK maps have a high N75 PID I in the midrange which if fitted with the J could cause an over shoot in the stock mapping, this is on the ECU HW with 018J.
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Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags
Subtle as ever eh Brad :grin:
Quote of the month for me - thank you
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IMO I can see no reason spending £90 on a valve which has no real gains over the OEM unit? Going back over the year on forums there have been many members whos have fitted the J H K vavles and resorted going back to the oem revision. The old stock OEM valve is adjustable and a slight tweak could take out a dyno plot flat spot saving £90.
Maybe Carbon Chiptuning could share there findings and explain the reason for spending and extra £90 on the J valve to complement there stage 1 remap? And maybe some rolling road graphs back to back of the Carbon stage1 map which is the map set for the N75J valve vs the stock C F or E valves.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=202251.msg1883339#msg1883339
Roger that, IMHO the AUM with N75J / 007p is one of Nick @ CARBONs signature remaps
If you have been doing the testing then your input, graph and logs will really help this thread out a lot so members can get there head around this and not waste £90.
The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.
Without sounding harsh, thats ball bags
my S3 AMK K04 lump comes with a F and i called Audi, yep its standard but old and now been superseded with the J valve
Not a bag of balls.... when you read your post back. :grin:
The C F E characteristics are for a smallers turbo like the ko3, the H J K have the correct design characteristics for a slower K04 turbo..
I never mention standard fitment so please go back and read my post. Now work out why your AMK had the F then went to a J? maybe its the correct valve characteristics for your K04 and audi changed it to J for good reason?
And why non of the ko3 engines AGU ARZ AUM AUQ have come off the C F or E valve and opted for the H J or K?? or why the Golf revision went from F to E not J???
Infact on the technical VAG docs I have the upgrade for the AMK is the 06A906283E? but some systems state J?
The H J K valves are designed for the K04 turbos the C F E are for the k03/s turbos.
Edit H J K designed for bigger turbos such as the ko4 not just the ko4, and C F E smaller quicker spooling turbos or OEM aplication which offer a lower output)
Fitting a H J K valve to a k03 turbo and ecu will induce a turbo faster spool and more over boost in the mid range, but the ecu soon adapts and pulls the boost back in to line which can be seen on the N75 logs. The H J K valves will reduce the power at the top end againback to back you can see the n75dc working harder to maintain boost. Its the feeling of a kick which the H J K valves give the smaller turbo which makes ther driver feel like the car is faster, but at the end of the day the average power it about the same, in some cases lower. The ecu is designed to meet load/boost once this load has been meet the ecu will cut the boost back via boost controller PIDS, which are there to stop boost over/under shoot oscillations (not an easy ecu to fool)
For all of you who want to understand boost pids here is a copy of a wiki page for me7 tuning.
(Just to note the PID I is what I use to give the car the kick of boost or linear boost depending on the mapping and customers needs)
Boost PID
If your actual boost is not meeting requested boost, you may have to increase the PID I limit between 2250 and 5000 RPM for 850 and 1000mBar:
KFLDIMX - LDR I-Regulator limit
To go along with KFTARX above, there is another IAT correction that ME7.1 uses to allow the PID to add waste-gate duty cycle at elevated IATs. You may want to zero it all out:
LDIATA - LDR I-Regulator limit as a function of IAT
If you aren't using K03s, you may have to tweak the PID response. Note: this is NOT used to adjust requested boost. It is used to compensate for different waste-gate responses.
KFLDRL - Map for linearization of boost pressure = f(TV). This is the post-PID waste-gate duty correction table.
LDRQ0S - LDR PID Q0 in static operation (proportional term)
LDRQ1ST - LDR PID Q1 in static operation (integral term)
KFLDRQ2 - LDR PID Q2 (differential term)
KFLDRL can also be used to get open-loop type behavior for operation past the MAP and requested boost limit by making the output duty cycle unresponsive (flat) to uncorrected duty cycle (from the PID) at various RPM/DC points. Again, if you do this, make sure to leave DSLOFS at the stock value! This way, requested boost will always be higher than measured boost, and you will stay in open loop control.
With after market or external waste-gates flat line the map at something like 25% until your turbo should be spooled and then taper off to 10% at areas if higher load and RPM. Log requested vs. actual boost to see where you need to adjust KFLDRL to line things up. The higher your after market waste-gate spring pre-load the lower the WGDC you will need to accurately control boost.
If you don't get all of this just right, and your actual boost goes too far above requested boost (by ~200mBar), you may experience overboost throttle cut, which is ME attempting to get boost back under control by temporarily closing the throttle plate.
Alternately, if your requested boost is far too high for a given load/rpm point, you may experience positive deviation (underboost) limp mode.
Many hours go into getting the boost pids correct.
IMO £90 for a valve to give that feeling is a waste of money, as its only a 5 min job to change the boost PIDs in the mapping to give the same effect and actually make more average power with out tailing off at the top end.
:wink:
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Maybe Carbon Chiptuning could share there findings and explain the reason for spending and extra £90 on the J valve to complement there stage 1 remap? And maybe some rolling road graphs back to back of the Carbon stage1 map which is the map set for the N75J valve vs the stock C F or E valves.
http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=202251.msg1883339#msg1883339
Roger that, IMHO the AUM with N75J / 007p is one of Nick @ CARBONs signature remaps
If you have been doing the testing then your input, graph and logs will really help this thread out a lot so members can get there head around this and not waste £90.
I think not, Feeding information about our product and how it operates to open forums isn't how we work.
So lets carry on without the need to bring CARBON into this, if we wish to pipe up we will :smiley:
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Cant see how the remap settings for the boost could differ really? If the map is exactly the same and hasnt been changed, then the boost logs pretty much speak for themselves IMHO. The fact that the J valve is slower so the ECU allows the turbo to effectively overboost more thus 'feel' faster
Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.
Afterall - VW wouldnt have superceeded something that worked how they wanted it would they?
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Cant see how the remap settings for the boost could differ really? If the map is exactly the same and hasnt been changed, then the boost logs pretty much speak for themselves IMHO. The fact that the J valve is slower so the ECU allows the turbo to effectively overboost more thus 'feel' faster
Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.
Afterall - VW wouldnt have superceeded something that worked how they wanted it would they?
Unless there is some special way to map a 'J' valve rather than a 'C' or 'E' then it would be surely interesting to see.
No maps for each valves just DC boost pids for reaction control not valve characteristics.
Only pulse width from the ecu which uses the same digital to analogue driver, like you say the valves are on there own merits based on the coil windings, and adjustments in a simlar was as hair clippers work.
Which means the over shoot will be relevant to all tuners maps.
(updates on page one)
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Well after my trip to Rtech, Nick recommended replacing the N75 valve in my Passat.
I duly did so.
But getting the right part out of the VW Dealer was a bit of an exercise!
The impression I got was that the old numbers had been superceded and the new suffixes just depended on which make the car was!
J = Seat, H = VW , K = Audi
Because I asked for a J and was told that was for Seat only and if you really wanted one you will have to go to a Seat dealer!
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Well after my trip to Rtech, Nick recommended replacing the N75 valve in my Passat.
I duly did so.
But getting the right part out of the VW Dealer was a bit of an exercise!
The impression I got was that the old numbers had been superceded and the new suffixes just depended on which make the car was!
J = Seat, H = VW , K = Audi
Because I asked for a J and was told that was for Seat only and if you really wanted one you will have to go to a Seat dealer!
Hello Len,
All you need to do is give VW your reg number and they will send you the correct one out for your car, you may find they will send you a E revision? A new C F E valve will be fine, its jus tyour current valve has many 1000s of miles on it and is now lazy. :smiley:
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The F valve I had fitted to my Golf had only been on there around a thousand miles and was already bleeding boost when I had it mapped. They are now on revision E
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Nick
I did replace the N75!
And I was told I had to have a H!
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Nick
I did replace the N75!
And I was told I had to have a H!
Confused.com?
PM me your reg number
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I got a j and love it
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I got a j and love it
Hi
Do you have vagcom to hand to help chip in with come logs of the J?
Nick
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not atm mate but ordering it wen get paid next few weeks
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I got a j and love it
No you don't :grin:
Carbon only fit these when required by the way - not as a matter of course - of course :wink:
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Nick
I did replace the N75!
And I was told I had to have a H!
Confused.com?
PM me your reg number
Uh? Why?
I have a new N75 and the correct one!
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I got a j and love it
No you don't :grin:
Carbon only fit these when required by the way - not as a matter of course - of course :wink:
Whats the requirement to fit a J then?
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I got a j and love it
No you don't :grin:
Carbon only fit these when required by the way - not as a matter of course - of course :wink:
Whats the requirement to fit a J then?
If the old one is past it's best and the most relevant valve to replace it with is a J.
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Whats wrong with a standard current revision replacement?
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Whats wrong with a standard current revision replacement?
Each to their own - what's your preference?
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Whats wrong with a standard current revision replacement?
Each to their own - what's your preference?
Currently rocking a 'E' Revision.
Dont see why I should pay 3x as more for a OLDER valve than I would for the latest valve VW produce.
Since there is only 1 part that controls boost that can be modified, ie duty cycle, id much rather adjust that for more relaible boost than stick a slower valve in to create a spike in spool.
Surely there must be some reason you prefer a older valve? Why not map the ECU to the latest, more reliable valve?
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Whats wrong with a standard current revision replacement?
Each to their own - what's your preference?
Currently rocking a 'E' Revision.
Dont see why I should pay 3x as more for a OLDER valve than I would for the latest valve VW produce.
Since there is only 1 part that controls boost that can be modified, ie duty cycle, id much rather adjust that for more relaible boost than stick a slower valve in to create a spike in spool.
Surely there must be some reason you prefer a older valve? Why not map the ECU to the latest, more reliable valve?
If you'd like to come over I'll gladly ask Nick to show you :smiley:
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I see now what your saying.... If you have a lazy stock valve C F or E, and you have to buy one then why not upgrade to the J to give that little extra kick down low. You not saying Bin a good valve and go with the J, just to go with the remap.
My point was to stop members ditching a good working valve and go out an buy a new J for the sake of a little kick of power at a compromise to average power.
Now its Each to their own.
Nick
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I see now what your saying.... If you have a lazy stock valve C F or E, and you have to buy one then why not upgrade to the J to give that little extra kick down low. You not saying Bin a good valve and go with the J, just to go with the remap.
Nope we don't tell people to change something for the fun of it but we do find this valve compliments our remap well :wink:
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wow ive had the e valve f and the ecs race and went back to the e as made extra 8 bhp