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Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: BobbyT on 04 January 2019, 12:11

Title: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: BobbyT on 04 January 2019, 12:11
Seem's VW has dropped the extra injectors on the new emission engines on the GTI and R. This will cause carbon build up issues down the line, not good really. The US cars have issues with carbon build up from 40 to 100k depending on driving style and luck.  :sad:

https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30203-golf-r-2019-wltp-looses-mpi-dual-injection/ (https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30203-golf-r-2019-wltp-looses-mpi-dual-injection/)

Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: Jim_mk7.5 on 04 January 2019, 13:20
Would this be the case on 2018 models? Mine has the GPF filter, got the car in June. Doesn't really bother me as on a lease but was considering option to buy at the car when the lease finished.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 04 January 2019, 13:46
I think the answer is in here:

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/01/2014014-audi.html

The green credentials needed these days concern particulate emissions... GDI causes more particulates.

From that article I linked:

Quote
The JRC report noted that it was not clear if OEMs could meet GDI particle limits via engine improvements, or whether this will require the introduction of a Gasoline Particulate Filter (GPF)—a solution that would add to the cost of the already more costly GDI engine itself.

I *suggest* that the increased target for particulate reduction exceeded what was possible with the dual injection system and therefore needed the GPF to achieve it - we know they did add one of these.

If you have the GPF on the exhaust, you don't need the dual injection system to reduce tailpipe particle emission, because the GPF is more efficient.

Therefore, you only other reason to retain the dual injection is to reduce engine carbon build up - but if that comes in at around 70,000 miles.... isn't that a non-warranty issue therefore not on the bean counters spreadsheet?

Anyway, just my analysis of what I think has happened...
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 04 January 2019, 21:55
^ You'd hope that VW have something else in place to combat port valve coking. Reading up on it suggests that most of the build up is oil from guide rails etc (which doesn't get washed away by MPI fuel input) which burns up to carbon content of the oil remaining rather than  particulate matter from fuel. The reading matter also suggested that use of fully synthetic fuel with a higher boiling point will be less susceptible to reducing to carbon and changing oil regularly also helps. If all that is true (seemed plausible to me), it could signal the end of long life servicing and use of lesser oils for standard interval oil changes.

If VW have nothing in place, their reputation for long term mechanical reliability is going to be in tatters. They were one of the first to implement MPI and state in their technology literature that it was partially to prevent valve coking.

If they have no alternative preventive measures in place, then maybe this is connected to VWs withdrawal of extended warranties - they do care what happens up to 3 years/60k miles when they're picking up the tab under standard warranty, but would like to be not carrying the can under extended warranty when the car is 4 or 5 years old and potentially close to 100k miles on the clock when coking would have definitely manifested itself if it is going to happen. Last time I looked  you could still get extended warranties in France and Germany - might be worth another look on their sites.

I wonder if other marques with MPI implementation are now about to remove it.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 04 January 2019, 23:17
It's only a cludge for the last gasps of the mk7 anyway.... The mk8 almost certainly won't need the same cludge.

It's all about risk vs cost and its limited exposure.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 05 January 2019, 09:28
It's only a cludge for the last gasps of the mk7 anyway.... The mk8 almost certainly won't need the same cludge.

It's all about risk vs cost and its limited exposure.

You think it's only a cludge for run out MK7s? That seems a bit short sighted as the same engine is used in plenty of other VAG models which are nowhere near the end of their lifecycle (and i'd have to assume that they're losing MPI too) - the Polo is only a year old and the Polo GTI uses a detuned version of the same engine. I doubt this is a Golf GTI only loss of the MPI for purely DI.

Either way, should they really be aiming to bugger up the long term reliability of even just a year's worth of Golf GTI and R output.

They've just created a new engine code for the evolution of the engine that's now lost MPI - would they create a new engine variant for just a year's exclusive use on performance Golfs? How sure are you that they won't use this new variant in the MK8 Golf?

I suppose we won't know for sure until someone inspects a non-Golf that's WLTP approved which uses the same engine (Polo GTI, perhaps a Passat or Arteon variant).

It would be handy to see if all of the petrol engines are losing MPI (assuming they had it in the first place) post WLTP such as all of the 3-cyl 1.0TSI, 1.5TSI EVO, anything bigger than 2.0. If they are, i'd hopeVW have an alternative solution in place.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 05 January 2019, 09:55
How many GDI engines are sold by car makers or have been sold by car makers?

Are all of those vehicles currently off the road waiting to be crushed?

I'm not sure the level of hysteria with people cancelling orders and throwing teddy out of the pram is truly warranted...

And yes I am fairly sure that the Mk8 engine design is going to be something very much different to what we see today. Its going to be a hybrid...
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 05 January 2019, 10:16
How many GDI engines are sold by car makers or have been sold by car makers?

Are all of those vehicles currently off the road waiting to be crushed?

I'm not sure the level of hysteria with people cancelling orders and throwing teddy out of the pram is truly warranted...

And yes I am fairly sure that the Mk8 engine design is going to be something very much different to what we see today. Its going to be a hybrid...

Most of those other manufacturers offer longer warranties than VW, so less worry for the consumer - even Alfa Romeo offer 5 year warranties now. Most mace also implemented MPI as VAG did. I'm hoping that VAG have removed the tech because it's no longer required to keep coking at bay. If not  most are going to be sceptical to keeping their cars long term. I hope to keep my Polo GTI+ a long time (it's quite a jump in infotainment tech over the current Golf - it'll all end up on the MK8), as well as the incoming one - which might end up without MPI and will have a GPF (The current one I have doesn't have a GPF but does have MPI).
The engine itself doesn't have to fundamentally change to give you a hybrid, just tie in with supplementary electric motors.

We have hybrids to supplement power at the top end, I do wonder, for the sake of economy why we haven't really had much in the way of front end electric working? Imagine a petrol engined car with only 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th gears and 1st/2nd is taken care of exclusively by electric motors for cleaner and more economical city crawling.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: mcmaddy on 05 January 2019, 11:07
So reading this if you order a 7.5 GTi now in the UK will it have MPI or not?
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: kmpowell on 05 January 2019, 11:19
So reading this if you order a 7.5 GTi now in the UK will it have MPI or not?
I don't think there's a definitive answer on that quite yet. If the 245 is no longer MPI then I suspect there was a crossover at some point (maybe MY19), but at what point that happened is anybody's guess because cars had been built (and were being built) whilst WLTP approval for the 245 was still taking place. If it is no longer MPI then it's safe to assume any order placed now will arrive without MPI.

I pick up my MY19 car tomorrow, which I think was built before the approval actually happened so I will happily take a picture of the engine bay if people want?

To be honest though, whether mine is MPI or not I couldn't care less. Far bigger things in life to worry over, and in the real world it won't make a jot of difference.  :smiley:
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: clarky92 on 05 January 2019, 12:18
I've just pulled the engine cover off my March 2018 (build December 17) GTI PP and it doesn't look to be dual injection. I also have that particulate filter in the exhaust system. See here page 9 for photo

https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30203-golf-r-2019-wltp-looses-mpi-dual-injection/?page=9
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: clarky92 on 05 January 2019, 12:20
I've just pulled the engine cover off my March 2018 (build December 17) GTI PP and it doesn't look to be dual injection. I also have that particulate filter in the exhaust system. See here page 9 for photo

https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/30203-golf-r-2019-wltp-looses-mpi-dual-injection/?page=9

10k mileage it runs really smooth and returns very good mpg.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 05 January 2019, 12:38
Most of those other manufacturers offer longer warranties than VW, so less worry for the consumer - even Alfa Romeo offer 5 year warranties now. Most mace also implemented MPI as VAG did. I'm hoping that VAG have removed the tech because it's no longer required to keep coking at bay.

The MPI was never for anti-coking though was it? Wasn't it purely for particle emission control in itself?

Quote
The engine itself doesn't have to fundamentally change to give you a hybrid, just tie in with supplementary electric motors.

I think the answer to that is "it depends"

Quote
We have hybrids to supplement power at the top end, I do wonder, for the sake of economy why we haven't really had much in the way of front end electric working? Imagine a petrol engined car with only 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th gears and 1st/2nd is taken care of exclusively by electric motors for cleaner and more economical city crawling.

That would make a lot of sense actually, I wonder why nobody has done it? Complexity issues? You'd still need hybrid capability in low gears in case of no charge though.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: wantmygti on 05 January 2019, 13:23
Getting a car moving requires a lot more energy that keeping it going at a steady pace. Whilst it sounds like it would make sense, it’s would be incredibly intensive on the batteries.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 05 January 2019, 16:05
Getting a car moving requires a lot more energy that keeping it going at a steady pace. Whilst it sounds like it would make sense, it’s would be incredibly intensive on the batteries.

All electric cars manage It. Don't forget that starting up a fuelled car is thirsty work too, even if stop-start tech has made it a little easier. Could get around being stranded with no electric power by having the petrol engine generate some electricity if needed. It does sound complicated - but all hybrids are.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: kmpowell on 06 January 2019, 12:56
Here's my 245 engine which I picked up this morning. The car was built late 2018. Judging by the images on VWROC there's no MPI...

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJscjmLN/IMG-1893.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/345bXCPP)
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: Sootchucker on 06 January 2019, 13:44
Here's mine, a May 2018 delivered (April 2018 build) GTI 230ps (so not performance pack) DSG. Looks to me like these still have the MPI ?
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7815/46630207371_1fc843e9fd_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2e3y15B)


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7910/32755973398_9c7ac55f64_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RUwVG3)
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: 2007GTI on 17 January 2019, 13:18
Just curious what the overall consensus is on this, if for instance buying a 1-2 year old GTi or ordering a brand new one, is loss of MPI really a deal breaker?
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 17 January 2019, 13:55
Just curious what the overall consensus is on this, if for instance buying a 1-2 year old GTi or ordering a brand new one, is loss of MPI really a deal breaker?

How much are you going to use it and for how long? I'd sooner take my chances with a new car than a secondhand one - who knows what problems you are buying - why take the risk if you don't have to?

If you are thinking resale, most people won't know the difference. Its going to make bugger all resale value drop.

Meh petrolheads storm in a teacup.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: SRGTD on 17 January 2019, 14:00
Just curious what the overall consensus is on this, if for instance buying a 1-2 year old GTi or ordering a brand new one, is loss of MPI really a deal breaker?

I suppose it depends on how long you’re planning on keeping the car and the types of journeys you undertake. Lots of information on the downsides of losing MPI in the thread over on VWROC forum at the link posted by the OP in the initial post in this thread. Long term owners, or vehicles with high mileages or that have been used predominantly for short journeys are more likely to have issues:- typically, the issues seem to be a drop off in performance and fuel economy, misfiring/poor running and the need to have the carbon build up removed periodically, which quoted by the OP of the thread on VWROC as ‘expensive’.





Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: 2007GTI on 17 January 2019, 15:25
Thanks, I hadn't fully read the VWroc since early Jan, so I'm up to speed now, I agree, seems like a storm in a tea cup.

Just curious what the overall consensus is on this, if for instance buying a 1-2 year old GTi or ordering a brand new one, is loss of MPI really a deal breaker?

How much are you going to use it and for how long? I'd sooner take my chances with a new car than a secondhand one - who knows what problems you are buying - why take the risk if you don't have to?

If you are thinking resale, most people won't know the difference. Its going to make bugger all resale value drop.

Meh petrolheads storm in a teacup.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 01 February 2019, 14:03
Just had confirmation via the Polo forum that MPI on the Polo GTI's 2.0TSI engine has retained MPI after becoming WLTP compliant with GPF (post October build). Pictures seen that show the expected MPI specific components are still there. Makes it even stranger that Golf GTI has lost it and the Polo didn't. I wonder if any other VAGs using that engine have lost MPI?

Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: mcmaddy on 01 February 2019, 19:09
I wonder if the wrong engines have been put in UK golfs?
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 01 February 2019, 19:22
I wonder if the wrong engines have been put in UK golfs?

A golf is heavier than a polo... Heavier is more polluting. I'd guess the polo doesn't have the gpf... In the same way as previously the oil burning passat had adblue but the golf didn't (does now...)
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: mcmaddy on 01 February 2019, 21:01
Pretty sure the polo has a GPF.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: SRGTD on 01 February 2019, 21:03
I wonder if the wrong engines have been put in UK golfs?

A golf is heavier than a polo... Heavier is more polluting. I'd guess the polo doesn't have the gpf... In the same way as previously the oil burning passat had adblue but the golf didn't (does now...)

Not sure about all of the Polo range, but the WLTP compliant Polo GTI/GTI+ with a 200ps version of VW’s 2.0 litre EA888 engine does have a gpf, as well as retaining dual injection / MPI following WLTP certification.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: monkeyhanger on 02 February 2019, 09:10
I wonder if the wrong engines have been put in UK golfs?

A golf is heavier than a polo... Heavier is more polluting. I'd guess the polo doesn't have the gpf... In the same way as previously the oil burning passat had adblue but the golf didn't (does now...)

The Golf isn't that much heavier than the Polo - the Polo GTI+ is about 56kg lighter than the new GTI Performance. My pre WLTP Polo GTI + doesn't have a GPF, the WLTP compliant one that started building in November does.

The Polo is marginally smaller than the Golf now ,- same interior size, shorter bonnet (Most of the difference) and slightly less deep boot.

There really isn't much in it at all.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: Splashalot on 02 February 2019, 10:21
I can't figure out why they'd have two versions of basically the same engine - one DI only, the other port/DI. Doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: WLTP engine changes.... not great. Loss of MPI
Post by: fredgroves on 04 February 2019, 09:35
I wonder if the wrong engines have been put in UK golfs?

A golf is heavier than a polo... Heavier is more polluting. I'd guess the polo doesn't have the gpf... In the same way as previously the oil burning passat had adblue but the golf didn't (does now...)

The Golf isn't that much heavier than the Polo - the Polo GTI+ is about 56kg lighter than the new GTI Performance. My pre WLTP Polo GTI + doesn't have a GPF, the WLTP compliant one that started building in November does.

The Polo is marginally smaller than the Golf now ,- same interior size, shorter bonnet (Most of the difference) and slightly less deep boot.

There really isn't much in it at all.

56kg can make a lot of difference, plus its not just weight now WLTP is "real world" testing.

I've no idea what their aim is either for WLTP figures, but its more than just "we want a Golf to be xyz g/km to make the road tax figure right" its more to do with their attempts to have a lower fleet CO2 figure.... If they sell more Golfs than Polos (and they do by a massive amount), they will need to get the figures down on a Golf far more than a Polo or an UP!