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Model specific boards => Golf mk5 => Golf mk5 how to guides + info => Topic started by: Teutonic_Tamer on 03 September 2007, 16:13

Title: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 03 September 2007, 16:13
OK, this repeatedly gets asked, and some peeps seem confused, and others are concerned about modifications  :wink: - so I'll post the detail of the current requirements (when this post was made), along with my own opinions.  :nerd:

Before we start, let's clarify two separate, but related issues.  The "LongLife serving regime" is a completely distinct, and separate issue from the "LongLife oils".  (But you MUST only use LongLife oils when using the LongLife servicing regime).

Got that?  Now the lesson can begin . . .  :evil:


SERVICING REGIMES - & their requrements

LongLife Servicing Regime - variable servicing intervals
The actual LongLife serving regime really should not be used on any high performance, high revving petrol engine.  Although the LongLife regime was introduced across virtually all VAG cars in 2000/2001, with virtually no restrictions on useage, as time has progressed, and presumably VAG have gained "real-world" data, then the LongLife "requirements" have changed quite noticeably.  From 2006, the detailed requirements for LongLife were notably "downgraded".

This is the actual list of specific operating requirements for LongLife regime:

You must ONLY use the correctly specified VW approved LongLife oil.  A "generic" longlife, or a GM or BMW approved longlife oil is NOT acceptable.  If you do top up inbetween services with a non-VW LongLife oil, the oil quality sensor will notice this, and the car will develop a noticeable reduction in the service due computer.

You need to be able to comply with all of the above requirements.  If you can not comply with all of them, or there is a element of doubt that makes certain issues "boarderline", then you should not even consider LongLife, and use the Time and Distance regime instead.  Unfortunately, many VW stealers do not fully understand the exacting requirements for the LongLife regime, and will therefore incorrectly advise the customer of the wrong service regime.  :rolleyes:

Time and Distance Servicing Regime - conventional fixed servicing intervals
These are the more "relaxed" operating requirements for Time & Distance regime:
* Mileages are approximate, as the service indicator system uses kilometers as its distance measurement.

Even if you only meet one of these requirements, but atually meet more (but not all of the above LongLife requrements), you should still use this Time & Distance regime.

When I originally wrote this thread back in 2007, the "official" advice is that you may use either the "normal" VW approved Time and Distance oils, or, you can also use the higher quality VW approved LongLife oils for enhanced protection (or indeed a mixture of both - usually for topping up purposes).  However, from mid-2008, all official franchised dealerships were forwarned of updates for this specific issue - and from December 2008, the ONLY oil allowed to be used in franchised workshops, irrespective of service regime, is the LongLife 3 standard of oil (there are a few very limited exceptions, but these do not affect any Volkswagen).


ENGINE OILS - specification standards and useage

LongLife oils
LongLife oils are a very specific, and very high grade fully (usually) synthetic engine oils.  They undergo all the "standard" oil tests, but also have to undergo more rigourous and arduous tests.  The two crucial areas are the "duration" tests, and HTHS tests.  The duration tests demand that the oil can last over twice as long as the ACEA requirements for conventional drain high performance engine oils.  The HTHS is more interesting, and is very relevent to turbos.  HTHS stands for "High Temperature, High Shear", and basically places an additional, extremely rigorous test at 150deg C, whereas conventional ACEA and API tests only go up to 100deg C.

The appropriate VW LongLife standards:

Time and Distance oils
Well, these can vary from ancient quality straight mineral oils, through to relatively high performance full synthetic multigrades.  However, being as this is a Golf Mk5 section, I'll stick with relevent lubes for the Mk5.

One of the VW standards for conventional (non-LongLife) Time and Distance servicing for petrol engines is 502.00.  This is usually a fairly high spec 'fully synthetic' oil, normally 5W40 (though some oils from American manufacturers are not acutally 'fully' synthetic  :wink:).  For non-PD diesels a 505.00 specification is required, and this can actually be a high-grade mineral, semi-synthetic or fully synthetic oil.  For PD diesels a 505.01 is required, which is usually a fairly high quality fully synthetic oil.

So I hope you all agree that it can be deduced that LongLife oils are of considerably higher quality than even the best conventional fully synthetic T&D oils.


For part numbers of official VAG and Quantum (made by Castrol for VW) engine oils, look here: www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=95565, and for some further discussion, look here: www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=98261


ACTUAL "INTERVALS" OF THE TWO DIFFERENT REGIMES
These are the actual physical intervals - how many miles, and/or over what timescale will the car actually go between services.

Time and Distance Servicing Regime - conventional fixed servicing intervals
For the fixed interval "Time and Distance" servicing, then the actual intervals are 12 months or 10k miles - whichever occurs soonest.

That means that your car can go up to one year since the last service, and/or up to 10,000 miles.  The upper level for one of those will always be reached - so that means if you are an occasional driver doing, say less than 50 miles per week, then you will go 12 months between services (but will have only covered about 2,600miles).  However, if you are a high mileage driver, doing say 2,000 miles per month, then you will go the full 10,000 miles, but will only manage 5 months between.

LongLife Servicing Regime - variable servicing intervals
For the "LongLife" servicing regime, for a petrol engine, it can go up to 24 months, or, up to 20k miles (diesels up to 30kmiles), again, whichever occurs soonest.  However, unlike the T&D above (which WILL reach one or the other of the upper levels), with LongLife, there is absolutely no guarantee that you could reach either of the upper levels - they are "variable".

Even on LongLife regime, the 'Service Interval Display' (SID) can still ping for a service in as little as 12months, or as shockingly as little as 9,600miles - which is is blatant T&D territory.    At this extreme example, the LongLife can actually cost more to service - because you will be needing a "full" 20k service every 10k miles.  If you were on the T&D regime, then you would only be paying for effectively an oil and filter change at 10k, and then going another 10k before paying for the larger 20k service.  It is extremely rare, and virtually unknown for any engine to reach the claimed upper limits of mileages.  The accumulated data for Petrol engines on LongLife have shown they may reach around 13k to 15k miles, whereas Diesel engines do fare a little better, with around 27k miles being achieved.  So, based on this data, it confirms my "suspicions" and recommendations that no petrol engined car should be on the LongLife regime, especially if they have a turbo!  :nerd:


My recommendation for "modified" cars and/or "enthusiastic" driving
Now, to the point of modifications, particularly engine based mods.  My advice is simple.  Do NOT use the LongLife servicing regime, and only use the conventional fixed interval "Time and Distance" servicing regimes.  However, please DO continue to use the higher quality LongLife oil, and not the lesser quality Time and Distance oils.  If your engine or car is highly modified, or if you are a particularly 'enthusiastic' driver  :wink: - then I would very strongly recommend you not only use the T&D regime with LongLife oils, but also consider a further interim oil & filter change every 6 months or 5k miles.


Still awake at the back . . . .    :grin:
Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
Post by: illyun on 11 September 2007, 16:39

  • Driving style:  Moderate acceleration, moderate braking, engine revs mainly below 3000rpm.



yeah right!  lol  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 11 September 2007, 18:20

    • Driving style:  Moderate acceleration, moderate braking, engine revs mainly below 3000rpm.



    yeah right!  lol  :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

    Seriously - that quote is copied directly from 2006 year VW and Audi brochures.

    Basically, unless you drive like a granny, LongLife servicing regime should only be used on diesels!  :nerd:[/list]
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
    Post by: speedynz on 18 September 2007, 02:35
    TT, I hope that you get chance to read this as I'd appreciate some clarification.

    You state that Longlife3 VW 504-00 5W 30 is the high spec petrol engine oil and that Longlife3 VW 507-00 is the diesel engine oil, correct?

    I have just been to my VW dealers and bamboozled them with my new found, internet based authority on the above mentioned recommended oils for my Edition 30 GTI.

    I asked for the 504 oil and was shown a 1 litre Castrol Longlife3 oil labelled 'VW 504-00 5W 30' and was amazed and happy that they even stocked it. However (here we go) the oil label also stated that it was a 'Longlife3 VW 507-00' (the 504/507 were listed next to each other on the back of the bottle).

    I will just clarify that this has nothing to do with extended service intervals as they don't exist here, it is to do with having the very best oil for my engine and the HTHS aspect of the VW504 appears to show this as the best oil available.

    Is this the oil that I need?

    Are VW504 and VW507 the same oil or is one for petrol engines and one for diesel engines?

    If so then why does it state both numbers on the same bottle?

    I read your thread (very helpful it was too) but this issue remains unclear and I would appreciate your input.
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 18 September 2007, 12:14
    OK Speedy, just to clarify, all the VW LongLife oil standards are "dual purpose", in that they are applicable to both petrol and diesel engines.  For the sake of clarity, as this is a Mk5 GTI section, and there are no soot-slinging GTIs yet, I only quoted the petrol engine standard.

    However, as you have discovered, the LongLife 3 standard is 504.00 and 507.00, which applies to both fuels.  So the Castrol LongLife 3 oil the stealer showed is perfectly acceptable.



    HTH
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
    Post by: speedynz on 18 September 2007, 12:51
    ^^^^^^^^^OH GOD^^^^^^^^^

    Still confused, although a little less so.

    You state that you only quoted the "petrol engine standard" but you also quoted that "504 is the petrol engine spec. 507 is for diesels" Please clarify.

    Also you state that the Castrol Longlife 3 oil is "perfectly acceptable"

    Do you mean that this is as good as you can can get for the GTI engine (within reason) or acceptable within the set VW oil standard parameters but 'not the best'?

    Thankyou, Speedy.
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 18 September 2007, 16:41
    OK, let's look at it from a different angle.

    The very latest VW LongLife 3 specification oil consists of two separate VW test approvals.  One approval is the VW 504.00 standard, and this is for ALL current petrol engines.  It also includes 507.00, and this is the diesel specification (and is a must for the latest diesel particulate filters, or DPF).  Viscosity, ie 10w30 or 20w50 is not a requirement, but is actually a result of the two VW test standards, which is why the owners manual makes no reference to a specific viscosity.  Furthermore, there is no European ACEA, nor American API standards.  In fact, the VW standards are actually based on the already strict ACEA tests, but with some further specific and enhanced tests.  The API standards are considered woefully inadequate, and have been so for the last 8-10 years in all cars of European origin (it is for this very reason why the European ACEA standards were developed, and why the Japanese created their own JASO standards).

    The slightly older VW LongLife 2 specification included three test approvals, and can still be used in certain current cars, including our GTIs and non-DPF diesels.

    The original VW LongLife 1 oil is now obsolete, in terms of VW/Audi reqiurements (appart from a couple of very high performance cars, but these were often not on LongLife regime anyway), yet some oil companies still sell it.


    The confusion between what I stated in my original post, and my specific advice to GTI owners - is simple.  In the original post, I gave the full detail of the LongLife OIL - but in my subsequent post, I quoted the specification which relates to only the petrol engined GTI.  If you get your GTI Technical Data booklet, and also your VW Service and Warranty booklet out of your leather ring binder, and look at them side by side.  You will see that the GTI Tech Data specifies 504.00 - but the Service book will say 504.00/507.00.  The reason for this, is the GTI Tech Data book refers to ONLY the GTI (and is therefore very specific), whereas the Service book referres to EVERY type of vehicle on sale by Volkswagen through that partcular year (and therefore the oil specs will refer to a 1.0 litre petrol Fox [if they actually make one] - all the way to the other extreme of a Touareg 5litre TDI).


    Regarding to your specific concern of the "best" oil for the GTI - then any VW504.00 is it.  The GTI Tech Data book also states 502.00, but this is a lesser quality oil.  Don't, FFS, do what the Yanks do, and put what they think is "better", but non-VW approved oils in it.  In the UK, any engine related warranty claim will require the stealer to carry out an official oil sample test, and will REJECT any warranty claim where non VW approved oil was used.

    So, if the Castrol LongLife 3 which the stealer, or anybody else sells/sold you - if it has 504.00 in the rear - will be the best possible oil.

    Understood??  :smiley:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife vs Time & Distance . . .
    Post by: speedynz on 18 September 2007, 22:04
    Thanks for patience and explanation TT, very clear and concise.

    Mobil 1 it is then!!!!!!! :wink:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 13 September 2008, 12:16
    BUMP!

    OK, I have now edited my initial post, and included the actual intervals which your car should, and may achieve on the two different regimes.

    If you have any more comments or questions, then ask away.  :smiley:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: goldenboy on 25 January 2009, 12:18
     :embarassed:
     Hi,
    im very new to this site so bear with me, i found your service information very interesting if only i had read it sooner!!!
    I own golf gti mk5, only yesterday had it serviced on long life at vw dealers, i drive it less than 100miles aweek sort jounerys so looks to me certainley got it wrong here!!  :cry: If i did want get it changed, would it just be a matter of changing the oil? What cost?
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 27 January 2009, 16:26
    :embarassed:
     Hi,
    im very new to this site so bear with me, i found your service information very interesting if only i had read it sooner!!!
    I own golf gti mk5, only yesterday had it serviced on long life at vw dealers, i drive it less than 100miles aweek sort jounerys so looks to me certainley got it wrong here!!  :cry: If i did want get it changed, would it just be a matter of changing the oil? What cost?

    Hi, and welcome to the forum.

    OK, the wisest advice for the GTI (with it being a high performance petrol engine with a turbo) is to continue using the LongLife oil even for the shorter Time and Distance servicing regime.

    The only thing you really need to do is to change the Service Interval Display settings.  If you use the manual reset procedure, this will simply default it from any LongLife servicing settings to a "fresh" Time and Distance setting.  Advice on how in another sticky thread in this section.

    HTH.  :smiley:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: goldenboy on 03 February 2009, 09:15
    hi,
    many thanks for the advise and info on the servicing regimes it all makes sense!!
    if only the vw dealers were as helpful and in the know!!!! :angry:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: andytran on 14 February 2009, 20:40


    The only thing you really need to do is to change the Service Interval Display settings.  If you use the manual reset procedure, this will simply default it from any LongLife servicing settings to a "fresh" Time and Distance setting.  Advice on how in another sticky thread in this section.

    HTH.  :smiley:

    Hi mate, Im currently on LL servicing, but am going to get my car serviced at the 12month point.
    Ive found some cheap Comma Longlife 0W-30 oil which meets VW 506 01    506 00    503 00. I take it this is suitable according to the previous posts? If so - if I change my service interval display settings manually will it permanently put the car back to T/D servicing?
    Help appreciated!
    Cheers
    Andy
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 16 February 2009, 20:28
    The only thing you really need to do is to change the Service Interval Display settings.  If you use the manual reset procedure, this will simply default it from any LongLife servicing settings to a "fresh" Time and Distance setting.  Advice on how in another sticky thread in this section.

    HTH.  :smiley:

    Hi mate, Im currently on LL servicing, but am going to get my car serviced at the 12month point.
    Ive found some cheap Comma Longlife 0W-30 oil which meets VW 506 01    506 00    503 00. I take it this is suitable according to the previous posts?

    No, no NOOOOOO.  Comma oils are cheap shyte crap - and are NOT Volkswagen approved (check VWs own master lists, at erWin.VW - https://erwin.volkswagen.com - for any of the 'non-belivers' of my posts!), dispite what it may say on the bottle.  Never, EVER use Comma crap in any modern car.  Comma is so crap, they actually had their Caterham OEM approvals withdrawn.  Bad sh!t in any car, never mind a GTI !!!!

    If so - if I change my service interval display settings manually will it permanently put the car back to T/D servicing?

    Yup.
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: andytran on 18 February 2009, 09:04


    Hi mate, Im currently on LL servicing, but am going to get my car serviced at the 12month point.
    Ive found some cheap Comma Longlife 0W-30 oil which meets VW 506 01    506 00    503 00. I take it this is suitable according to the previous posts?

    No, no NOOOOOO.  Comma oils are cheap shyte crap - and are NOT Volkswagen approved (check VWs own master lists, at erWin.VW - https://erwin.volkswagen.com - for any of the 'non-belivers' of my posts!), dispite what it may say on the bottle.  Never, EVER use Comma crap in any modern car.  Comma is so crap, they actually had their Caterham OEM approvals withdrawn.  Bad sh!t in any car, never mind a GTI !!!!

    If so - if I change my service interval display settings manually will it permanently put the car back to T/D servicing?

    Yup.
    [/quote]

    Cheers mate!

    One question - how can they advertise meeting VW standards if the oil is cr%p? Surely there must be some form of regulation to ensure standards are met?

    Andy
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 19 February 2009, 11:05
    Hi mate, Im currently on LL servicing, but am going to get my car serviced at the 12month point.
    Ive found some cheap Comma Longlife 0W-30 oil which meets VW 506 01    506 00    503 00. I take it this is suitable according to the previous posts?

    No, no NOOOOOO.  Comma oils are cheap shyte crap - and are NOT Volkswagen approved (check VWs own master lists, at erWin.VW - https://erwin.volkswagen.com - for any of the 'non-belivers' of my posts!), dispite what it may say on the bottle.  Never, EVER use Comma crap in any modern car.  Comma is so crap, they actually had their Caterham OEM approvals withdrawn.  Bad sh!t in any car, never mind a GTI !!!!

    If so - if I change my service interval display settings manually will it permanently put the car back to T/D servicing?

    Yup.

    Cheers mate!

    One question - how can they advertise meeting VW standards if the oil is cr%p? Surely there must be some form of regulation to ensure standards are met?

    It is simply down to the wording on the bottle.  If it says something like 'approved by Volkswagen/Audi to VW 506.01 standard', then the oil will have to have been formally submitted to Volkswagen Germany and undergo VWs own in-house stringent tests.  But if they use some kind of weasel words, such as 'meets', 'complies with', 'suitable for' - then phrases like those don't actually mean anything - but the one thing absolutely certain about those kinds of phrases - they will NOT have been formally tested by VW.  Mobil are particularly guilty of using those kinds of words.  Look at a bottle of Mobil 1 0w40, and it will list a whole shed load of VW standards which it claims to 'meet', yet look on VWs own master lists, and you will be lucky if it actually complies with just one!  Virtually all the US based oils are like that.

    In terms of regulation, in the UK, we are a little weak in this aspect.  Official 'advertisements', such as TV, radio, and print (newspapers, magazines, etc) are fairly well regulated.  However, we have sod all regulation for internet sites, and we have little protection for cleverly misleading wording on actual packaging.

    Which is why I always recommend either using an oil from a reputable top-level oil company from only the UK or Europe - and if there is any doubt, then check on the erWin sites, where the definative information is published.

    HTH
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: andytran on 20 February 2009, 08:45
    Cleared that one up nicely. :wink:

    Guess I will just have to pay Halfrauds the money for some Castrol longlife then!!

    Cheers

    Andy
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: ifti on 18 March 2009, 15:05
    T_T - do you have a list of all the services, whats included in each service, and the approx cost of each??
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: andeep on 22 March 2009, 22:47
    So for modified GTIs, it is advisable to have a service every 10,000 miles? Also what needs to be done at each service? Would you recommend getting the car serviced at a stealership or a VW approved garage?
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 15 August 2009, 22:03
    T_T - do you have a list of all the services, whats included in each service, and the approx cost of each??

    The list of services is actually found in your service and warranty book - found in your leather book folder.

    Prices . . . . how long is a piece of string . . . .
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 15 August 2009, 22:12
    So for modified GTIs, it is advisable to have a service every 10,000 miles?

    Correct.  And if it is heavily modified, or if you drive it very hard, then do an additional interim oil & filter change every 5k miles.  :smiley:


    Also what needs to be done at each service?

    Look in your service book!  :wink:

    Would you recommend getting the car serviced at a stealership or a VW approved garage?

    Hmmmmmm . . . . even though I'm an independent, for new cars still under warranty, I would still recommend getting routine servicing done by an official franchised dealership.  However, any work which is outside the scope of normal servicing, such as tyres, brakes etc can be done anywhere.
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: Teutonic_Tamer on 18 August 2009, 19:03
    Updated the text in my initial post.  :wink:
    Title: Re: servicing regimes: LongLife (variable intervals) vs Time & Distance (fixed int.)
    Post by: daviescotland on 07 January 2010, 18:30
    Hello TT
    I've been reading this post with interest.

    I'm currently driving a MK5 GT Sport TSI 170 and it is on T&D servicing as that was the service package i got when i ordered it. (3 years servicing from VW)

    I have just ordered a mk6 GTI with a dealer service package thrown in (2 services) and was going to look at longlife servicing. I will not be modifying the engine at all.

    Any recommendations as to what schedule i should be on with the new car?? I drive about 12000 miles a year, mostly motorways.

    Thanks, Davie