Northwest tdi remap

[adi]

Hi can anyone reccomend some where to remap my passat 1.9 tdi pd 130 and what gains are possible, I have been told to fit a milltec decat first opinions please, thanks adi.

[Carbon-Chiptuning]

Hi can anyone reccomend some where to remap my passat 1.9 tdi pd 130 and what gains are possible, I have been told to fit a milltec decat first opinions please, thanks adi.

Hi Adi,

De-cat is a waste of money unless your cat is knackered or you have heavy mods......... hybrid turbo, FMIC etc. It will only make a VERY small difference on a mechanically standard car.

You’re looking at around 170HP provided it is making a healthy 130HP as it is.

Retail on these is £275 but as a forum member you get a discount of £100 provided you make a £10 donation to the forum making a total of £175 (+ your £10 donation)

Any further questions please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Kind Regards,

Nick

www.carbon-chiptuning.co.uk
nick@carbonst.com
07825 215 003

[Rhyso]

I'm going to beg to differ on the decat there Nick

An extra few bhp and lbs ft torque across the rev range??  And a more responsive throttle? Yes please 

5th gear WITH cat


4th gear WITH cat


5th gear DECAT


4th gear DECAT


Look at how the curve is smoothed out with the decat.  In my opinion, for the £150 or so for a decat its right up there with a remap for best value for money 

[RTechUK]

The decat wont really offer much PEAK power gains, in fact you will lose some inital torque due to over speed spooling, but once on boost the decat will allow the turbo to substain the boost longer and cooler with less exhaust manifold back pressure, so better MPG and less turbo affort.

IMO the decat is a well worth mod as it will provide you with more "area under the torque curve make you car much quicker.

All of our map have been setup on our rolling road in house, we can provide a live custom remap in house on our rolling road for £290, or we can send Ben our mobile fitted who will carry out the remap with full diagnostics and data logging for £200 (The mobile remap will be a map which has been custom dyno tuned from a car with exact same spec)

to book you will need to call 01455 617233

Regards
Nick

[Carbon-Chiptuning]

Hi All,

Just to explain my initial post re. Passat  TDi 130 de-cat...........

Firstly, there is no Milltek de-cat pipe available for longitudinal engine TDi’s (Passats, A4’s,A6’s, Superbs) so not sure who advised you get one of those??? They only make them for transverse engine TDi’s.

Supersprint (Italian company) do appear to have an ‘off the shelf’ de-cat pipe under development, it is actually listed for Audi A4 but the exhausts are identical ;-)

http://www.supersprint.com/USP000auda430.asp

Anyway, the cost is 230 euro + delivery for the supersprint pipe which in my opinion is pretty poor value considering the actual gains you get from it on an otherwise mechanically standard car.

The other option is to have one custom made in T304 Stainless which from experience will be the cheapest option provided you find somebody with good TIG skills who can make a Jig to get the flanges clocked correctly – there’s not a lot of room where the downpipe flange meets the start of the centre section making it extremely difficult to try and make it is situ – if they get it wrong you’ll have vibration issues as the flange itself sits less than an inch from the bottom of the bulkhead and needs to be spot on.

Anyway, back to my initial point:

For most people the negligible gains you will get from a de-cat on a TDi 130 are not worth the money/effort unless you are going to do some more substantial mods at which point the de-cat actually will be beneficial.

PROS:
 
SLIGHTLY (and I mean slightly) more area under the curve as far as torque goes – you can actually get more of a delta between hot and cold days LOL!

SLIGHTLY  faster turbo spool up – Again this is borderline detectable using the seat of your pants. VNT17’s spool so quickly anyway you can go from 0 – 1.5Bar+ in no time at all with the Cat still in place!

SLIGHTLY reduced back pressure however the main ‘choke point’ in the 130TDI is not the CAT, it is 100% the VNT mechanism in the exhaust side of the turbocharger. That is why the limit for any VNT17 based hybrid turbo is around the 220HP mark. When we are going for more than that we have to use a custom made tubular exhaust manifold to allow us to fit something non VNT17 based ;-)

Interestingly, we’ve also logged EGT (exhaust gas temperature) on a previous extremely high power VE-Pump project – de-cat had no impact whatsoever on EGT’s – the only thing that significantly reduced EGT’s was water/methanol injection (Knocked nearly 300 deg off!) but that’s another story for another day ;-)

FYI: EGT is the single most important factor to monitor when tuning a diesel hard.


CONS:

COST – Significant considering the minimal gains.

Increased visible exhaust smoke – not been mentioned yet by anyone else but you will get increased visible smoke from the exhaust with the cat removed – not massive plumes and mainly on spool up but worth mentioning anyway.

So......... to reiterate my initial post – In my honest opinion based on personal and customers experiences a de-cat on an otherwise mechanically standard car isn’t worth the cost/effort.

I hope the above gives a good, unbiased overall picture of the pros and cons of fitting a de-cat pipe to a diesel. In addition to this I would welcome comments/experiences of others that have fitted de-cat pipes to their diesels and I’m sure we would all be very interested to have more detailed first hand experiences from others to help Adi make up his mind.

Also, FYI Adi we too have custom made software for various PD130 hardware configurations from mild to wild made by us on our own Dyno Dynamics rolling road.

Hope the above is useful to all,

Kind Regards,

Nick

www.carbon-chiptuning.co.uk
nick@carbonst.com
07825 215 003

[RTechUK]

Hi can anyone reccomend some where to remap my passat 1.9 tdi pd 130 and what gains are possible, I have been told to fit a milltec decat first opinions please, thanks adi.

 
Do it go for the decat, you can get a custom made one for less then £140, the car will drive and feel much better better, better MPG turbo spooling quicker lower EMP, egt not really and isuses at this level of tune.  As for added smoke, if mapped correct there will be no extra smoke, this is why there is 3 fuel IQ maps, as for spooling to 1.5bar this is what the stock mapoing will see with easy but its how efficient the flow is v the boost, what the point of having boost and poor flow? the exhaust gas needs to flow away from the engine just as quick, so with the decat you will get lower exhaust manifold pressure allwing for better air flow in and out the engine.   With a dyno you can only see the WOT conditions the real gain are in the feel of the car on the road, part pedal spooling, high speed lift off and increase ect..

Limiting factors on the passats is the transmission, if you tune them like a Golf TDI you will get nasty low down transmission judder so the torque need to be limited to 280lbft on the 5 speeds and 300lbft on the 6 speeds, where as with the Golf we are pushing them to 330lbft without transmission issues.

I have mapped 1000s of PDs engines and the ones with decats have been much better all around. 

Nick

[Carbon-Chiptuning]

Hi All,

Will reply later today...........

Been stuck on the dyno last couple of days completing an emissions cycle.

Kind Regards,

Nick

[Carbon-Chiptuning]

Hi can anyone reccomend some where to remap my passat 1.9 tdi pd 130 and what gains are possible, I have been told to fit a milltec decat first opinions please, thanks adi.

 
Do it go for the decat, you can get a custom made one for less then £140, the car will drive and feel much better better, better MPG turbo spooling quicker lower EMP, egt not really and isuses at this level of tune.  As for added smoke, if mapped correct there will be no extra smoke, this is why there is 3 fuel IQ maps, as for spooling to 1.5bar this is what the stock mapoing will see with easy but its how efficient the flow is v the boost, what the point of having boost and poor flow? the exhaust gas needs to flow away from the engine just as quick, so with the decat you will get lower exhaust manifold pressure allwing for better air flow in and out the engine.   With a dyno you can only see the WOT conditions the real gain are in the feel of the car on the road, part pedal spooling, high speed lift off and increase ect..

Limiting factors on the passats is the transmission, if you tune them like a Golf TDI you will get nasty low down transmission judder so the torque need to be limited to 280lbft on the 5 speeds and 300lbft on the 6 speeds, where as with the Golf we are pushing them to 330lbft without transmission issues.

I have mapped 1000s of PDs engines and the ones with decats have been much better all around. 

Nick

OK Nick, we’ll have to agree to disagree on the de-cats by the sound of things……..

My initial point was that most people will not see a de-cat pipe as good value ‘bang for buck’ in comparison to other mods and it is by no means essential when tuning a pd130 contrary to what Adi had been told by whoever he spoke to first:

“I have been told to fit a milltec decat first”


Quote:
“As for added smoke, if mapped correct there will be no extra smoke, this is why there is 3 fuel IQ maps”


I wasn’t talking about std vs mapped, I was talking about cat vs de-cat i.e. the question Adi asked that we are supposed to be replying to!

Take the cat off a std pd130 and it will smoke more.

Take the cat of a mapped pd130 and it will smoke more.

There are more than 3 maps that control IQ in a pd130 passat ;-)

Quote:
“as for spooling to 1.5bar this is what the stock mapoing will see with easy but its how efficient the flow is v the boost, what the point of having boost and poor flow”

   
Correct, a standard car will produce spikes in the region of 1.5bar but should settle between 1.35-1.4bar when under constant load. Efficient tuning doesn’t require a huge increase above this to get very good power/torque and if tuned correctly the spikes should be reduced to run a more constant pressure. Go much more than 1.5Bar constant with OEM intercooler and you will suffer heat soak and reduced power if you drive hard for extended periods with or without cat - this can be actually be seen if you log IAT, start of injection and IQ in vag com ;-)

The limiting factor you mention on the Passats (+A4’ A6’s Superbs etc.) is very well known and is actually the DMF (dual mass flywheel) going into harmonic oscilation due to the extra load transfer (these cars weigh around 1800-1900Kg depending on spec!) The 5 speed cars suffer more because of the smaller flywheel/clutch assembly where as the 6 speed’s slightly larger assembly can handle a little more. Obviously the golf and similar lighter weight counterparts with this engine can handle considerably more.

Anyway, back on topic…………… I and I’m sure others reading would still very much like to hear the opinion of others who have had a de-cat on a pd130 or any other diesel for that matter. Ideally people who had it fitted independently (time wise) from any other mods to give a true picture of the perceived benefits.

Nick - Carbon

[RTechUK]

No more than 3 IQ maps in edc15 you may find up to 9 map is in some versions due to production variant coding but only ever 3 in play at one time.  The fuel will always be capped by IQ V driver demand / IQ v RPM or IQ v pressure ratio which tends to cap the first two across most the the rpm range under 100% pedal request.  MAX 70mg IQ and upper limiters dont come until tuning hybrids and have no effect at all on the mapping as long as one for the 3 IQs will limit it.  Which gets back to my point mapped correct the Decat will cause NO more added smoke as the edc15 map strategy is to allow for clean burn at all load sites under all conditions.

I have many many customers who have had 90-100-110tdi & 100pd-115pd-130pd-150pd-140pd stage 1 remaps then complimented the map at a later date by adding a decat and felt the results straight way and seen better MPG,  The on the other had I have had customers who have replaced a fault oem cat with a cheap aftermarket cat with more compact restrictive cat celll and lost power, mpg and shed loads of black smoke afterwards.   If there is not gains from a decat system then why are people doing it, are the TDI club lads getting it wrong?

The main restriction with the VNT TDIs is EMP and the decat will reduce the EMP and in return lower the EGTs and less heat transfer to the block, which means less heat generated and as we know all heat build up is wasted energy from the initial combustion torque, its fact.

There are more of my customers on this forum > http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/270216.aspx?PageIndex=6  who have had a spec1 remap and then at a later date fitted a decat system or just cut the cat out.

[RTechUK]

No more than 3 IQ maps in edc15 you may find up to 9 map is in some versions due to production variant coding but only ever 3 in play at one time.  The fuel will always be capped by IQ V driver demand / IQ v RPM or IQ v pressure ratio which tends to cap the first two across most the the rpm range under 100% pedal request.  MAX 70mg IQ and upper limiters dont come until tuning hybrids and have no effect at all on the mapping as long as one for the 3 IQs will limit it.  Which gets back to my point mapped correct the Decat will cause NO more added smoke as the edc15 map strategy is to allow for clean burn at all load sites under all conditions.

I have many many customers who have had 90-100-110tdi & 100pd-115pd-130pd-150pd-140pd stage 1 remaps then complimented the map at a later date by adding a decat and felt the results straight way and seen better MPG,  The on the other had I have had customers who have replaced a fault oem cat with a cheap aftermarket cat with more compact restrictive cat celll and lost power, mpg and shed loads of black smoke afterwards.   If there is not gains from a decat system then why are people doing it, are the TDI club lads getting it wrong?

The main restriction with the VNT TDIs is EMP and the decat will reduce the EMP and in return lower the EGTs and less heat transfer to the block, which means less heat generated and as we know all heat build up is wasted energy from the initial combustion torque, its fact.

There are more of my customers on this forum > http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/270216.aspx?PageIndex=6  who have had a spec1 remap and then at a later date fitted a decat system or just cut the cat out.

Even a quick read on this forum http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=192354.0;topicseen