GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: kmpowell on 13 May 2019, 11:40
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https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/mountune-and-fifteen52-collaborate-on-new-m52/40175
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbNM3YDVli4
If you know fast Fords, you'll know Mountune; those in the VW tuning scene will be aware of fifteen52. The former has been offering Ford tuning for decades, both on and off the track, the latter specialising in VW tweaks since 1996. Today comes news of the two brands working together, creating 'm52' - a VW performance tuning operation.
The idea is to bring together Mountune's "rich heritage in performance engineering" with the "design flair of fifteen52", the aim to be something like what Mountune has been offering to Ford customers, only now to those with VW MQB cars. It's the MQB cars for starters, at least, though that is plenty of models. Expect much of fifteen52's aesthetic work to feature in the m52 project as well, its original remit being "to offer customers whatever wheels and styling enhancements they desire in order to make them feel they own truly unique automobiles."
All rather makes sense; the VW scene in the UK is only getting bigger, particularly with the Mk7 Golf GTI and R proving as popular as they have, and the Up GTI presumably bringing in a younger audience soon. Combine that enthusiasm for a brand with Mountune's proven reputation and it's surprising the idea hasn't happened sooner.
The plan is for a "host of tailored powertrain, chassis and style products" to be launched during this year, beginning with - you've guessed it - that Golf GTI and R duo. Available right now are Stage 1 kits for both cars, boosting the GTI to 310hp and 350lb ft and the R to 360hp/369lb ft. Interestingly m52 says that DSG cars can be reworked to deliver quicker shifts and "remove unwanted OE characteristics", which you would have to assume relates to full throttle kickdown and redline upchanges. That's the most significant news for now, with m52 promising that the range of hardware and software will be "extended significantly" during the year and the site already offering other smaller upgrades.
Director of both Mountune and m52, Alec Pell-Jonson, said that "the opportunity to work with fifteen52 and build a distinct, new brand was an opportunity to jump at. We are one of the very few tuners that have ever been OEM-approved to modify vehicles within warranty - it is this level of dedication and expertise that we are bringing to m52 and VAG models."
Exciting times, then, for members of the VW tuning fraternity - more modifying choice has to be good news, right? And fear not, fast Ford fans, because Mountune is already talking about getting to work on the new Focus ST. We'll hope to get behind the wheel of these m52 VWs, as well as whatever Blue Oval products Mountune gets its hands on, in the not too distant future. For now, see the intro video below, and the new website here - more coming soon!
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Mountune fighting back against REVO’s incursion into their Ford monopoly! :grin:
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Is there actually any real difference between stage 1 remaps? I mean the pre-packaged ones, not one that you design yourself for your own needs?
Same with changing the DSG parameters?
Its a question I have pondered before... other than saying "my car has a XYZ tune" to your mates?
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Is there actually any real difference between stage 1 remaps? I mean the pre-packaged ones, not one that you design yourself for your own needs?
Same with changing the DSG parameters?
Its a question I have pondered before... other than saying "my car has a XYZ tune" to your mates?
Yes, there can be quite a few differences. I’ve had a lot of mapped cars, never beyond stage 1, and you can definitely tell the difference between maps.
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Is there a personal preference thing there then or just some are bad?
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Those 5 spoke wheels look cheap and nasty, I'd have OEM wheels any day over those.
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Think 1552 have found the TSW 1990's catalogue useful :smiley:
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Hopefully they’ll learn that what looks vaguely passable on a mk1 Focus RS doesn’t suit a more conservative VW.
Then again maybe they’ve tapped into a new market! :shocked:
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It’s a shame there’s no manufacturer warranty with Mountune like there is on their Ford tunes. That’s the main pulling point for me there.
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Is there a personal preference thing there then or just some are bad?
Some can be quite bad.
Diesel tuning used to be quite straightforward hence the proliferation of add on boxes.
Being as they run at 100% airflow (no throttle butterfly or modern equivalent thereof) it was just a case of adding more fuel until the exhaust produced soot (unburnt fuel) then wind it back until the smoking stopped, check temps in the cylinder head to make sure nothing was going to melt and then market the result. A lot more complex potentially with all the emissions add ons now, plus the very advanced fuel injection/management systems but fairly similar principle.
With petrol turbos it’s more complex with ignition timing etc to take into consideration.
I’m sure a lot of the really cheaply developed maps just trick the engines into overfuelling and upping turbo boost forcing the ECU to try and play catch up making the extra power that way.
The likes of APR and REVO do put a lot of development miles into their maps which is reflected in the high purchase costs. The big timers invest a lot in advanced mapping kit and specialist programmers.
I’ve only used add on boxes on my earlier MK7’s due to TP1 scare stories but reverted back to standard in the end and my Clubsport I’ve kept fully original. Just a pedalbox is enough for these cars on the roads I drive.
With mk4,5 and 6 generation GTI’s and TDI’s I tried a few maps from different suppliers plus got to drive or passenger ride a few others.
REVO maps tend to be aggressive but they’ll offer smoother maps if you request them, APR seem very smooth and factory like in delivery just lots more power. Bluefin/superchips have a poor reputation yet don’t seem to struggle with getting customers, I tried a Bluefun map on my mk6 and it was much less aggressive and smoother than the REVO’d cars I had before it but noticeably down on peak power and torque. Not necessarily a bad thing as traction was never an issue and there were never any boost surges or flutter.
Aside from various tuning boxes I tried on my mk7’s I also got a good run out in a custom mapped mk7 R which was very impressive.
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The M52 unit seems to have only one plug. The DTUK unit has three. (or four)
Is there a difference in how either performs?
I’m thinking about getting a plug in map as the power gains seem huge for the money.
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I've had a DTUK box on my GTI for around 2 years now and it has always behaved very well. I had one issue with the wiring harness, but the guys replaced the whole unit with the Bluetooth enabled one under warranty which was great. Several different settings allow you to pick whichever map suits you best. Mine is currently on sport +3 and goes fantastically well, much better than my astra j vxr which had a remap and various hardware making them roughly the same output.
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The M52 unit seems to have only one plug. The DTUK unit has three. (or four)
Is there a difference in how either performs?
I’m thinking about getting a plug in map as the power gains seem huge for the money.
Isn't the M52 different to a dtuk box? It's a plug in obd port update on the M52.
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The M52 unit seems to have only one plug. The DTUK unit has three. (or four)
Is there a difference in how either performs?
I’m thinking about getting a plug in map as the power gains seem huge for the money.
Isn't the M52 different to a dtuk box? It's a plug in obd port update on the M52.
I thought the M52 map was like the dreamscience ones for fords where you flash it on yourself and vice versa with the handset. It seems you can then use the handset for basic diagnostics afterwards as well.
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The M52 unit seems to have only one plug. The DTUK unit has three. (or four)
Is there a difference in how either performs?
I’m thinking about getting a plug in map as the power gains seem huge for the money.
Isn't the M52 different to a dtuk box? It's a plug in obd port update on the M52.
I thought the M52 map was like the dreamscience ones for fords where you flash it on yourself and vice versa with the handset. It seems you can then use the handset for basic diagnostics afterwards as well.
yeah the handset via the obd port which is why is only got one plug 👍
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Ah okay, so just getting my head around this. So the M52 unit is connect, flash and unplug while the DTUK unit remains fixed?
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Ah okay, so just getting my head around this. So the M52 unit is connect, flash and unplug while the DTUK unit remains fixed?
Spot on :smiley:
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Ah okay, so just getting my head around this. So the M52 unit is connect, flash and unplug while the DTUK unit remains fixed?
For tuning, you basically have 3 options:
Plug and play box - DTUK, Racechip, JB4 etc - they all have 3 sensors you connect which trick the car for more power
Plug in remap - Mountune, BSR, Bluefin - you remap/unmap the car yourself using OBD with a device they supply
Dealer - Revo, APR and other - dealer remaps your car and you have to take it back if you want to remove it
I think that's about right but might be corrected.
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Great explanations thank you!
Think I’m looking at the DTUK unit. It has more connections than the RaceChip so I’m assuming it has more information to change accurately?
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Ah okay, so just getting my head around this. So the M52 unit is connect, flash and unplug while the DTUK unit remains fixed?
For tuning, you basically have 3 options:
Plug and play box - DTUK, Racechip, JB4 etc - they all have 3 sensors you connect which trick the car for more power
Plug in remap - Mountune, BSR, Bluefin - you remap/unmap the car yourself using OBD with a device they supply
Dealer - Revo, APR and other - dealer remaps your car and you have to take it back if you want to remove it
I think that's about right but might be corrected.
Sounds about right. REVO also offer both the "plug-in" option (SPS3) and a custom Dealer Map.
A word of warning though for cars inside VW warranty. There's lots of bollocks spouted from tuners claiming their maps/boxes cannot be detected, do not fall for it, everything is detectable by VW. Go into any tuning with your eyes totally wide open, and understand the risks involved. It's why I've been trying to do some research on the similarity of the components in the 245 v the R as I feel 310hp from a 245 is quite a jump and could put strain if they aren't capable of it. REVOSP3 is currently my first choice and I'll probably go with that, but I'm still trying to find out about the boost pressures and torque limits the 245 has.
Anyway, VAG cars have two flash 'counters'. The 1st is partially accessible by tuners, but the 2nd is completely inaccessible/encrypted and increments at every use of an external device which alters/changes the state of the ECU.
A VW dealership doesn't search for flags, they only look via ELSA for existing registered flags. Here in the UK, VW AG ask all dealers to run a specific diagnostic report (called SVM) which gets uploaded to the VW AG servers via VAS online. An automated response will be received and if a flag has been found, that flag will be shown and registered to the database. The diagnostic tool has no capability to do this locally. No information about a cars tuning state is held on the car's ROM, it's held centrally at VAG. VW keeps that record centrally of what the count number should be for each VIN (based on how many times it's been plugged into their systems), if the count displayed sits outside the number expected, then it goes into the first flash counter and looks for the TB1 and TD1 errors. When these are flagged, warranties are usually rendered void.
As mentioned, the flash counters serve two different purposes, one counts, one analyses. There is also another bit of the algorithm that analyses 'hardware' modification (tuning boxes and unidentified hardware that’s been plugged into the ECU) which produces a TXD code that is then monitored in the detection algorithm. It’s simple maths which will then flags the appropriate error (TD1, TG1, TE1 and TB1).
:)
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The Mountune map for the latest Fiesta ST isn’t covered by factory warranty like some of their other maps traditionally are.
Possibly due to less tuning headroom in component quality on the 3cyl engine.
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Good video showing the Mountune equipped Golf R giving the 400bhp RS3 a run for its money! Not bad for £1200 of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QAC7CdyGHc
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To be honest the standard R wasn't far off the pace of either of them. Would be interesting to see the rolling starts done with a TCR also :whistle:
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In real terms, not that much but in drag race terms the standard R was left behind. Think a TCR would be behind the standard R?
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Interesting to see as I guess the TCR would have less weight so once moving may have an advantage?
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Yes, that's true. Bet the TCR would give the CCS a good spanking. Carwow did a great race and the GTI P pipped the CSS to the 1/4 mile line :cool:
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Interesting to see as I guess the TCR would have less weight so once moving may have an advantage?
Fractionally less weight and fractionally less power/torque.
Would be a really interesting head to head.
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Interesting to see as I guess the TCR would have less weight so once moving may have an advantage?
Fractionally less weight and fractionally less power/torque.
Would be a really interesting head to head.
Are the weight and torque changes proportional to one another? That'd be a deciding factor
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Interesting to see as I guess the TCR would have less weight so once moving may have an advantage?
Fractionally less weight and fractionally less power/torque.
Would be a really interesting head to head.
Are the weight and torque changes proportional to one another? That'd be a deciding factor
They’ve set the levels very politically!
Mind you, on that link posted on here with the TCR versus the Renault Megane the historic R lap was quicker than the TCR.
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To be honest the standard R wasn't far off the pace of either of them. Would be interesting to see the rolling starts done with a TCR also :whistle:
I had a fairly extensive 'play' with a 7.5R the other day on A-roads and dual-carriageways, in the dry. Either he was a bad driver and/or the GTI punches the weight advantage massively over the R, whichever way there was very little in it. It was only off the mark from roundabouts where he had any advantage. In-gear he couldn't shake me and up hill (on sweeping dual carriageways 60/70mph) I'd even go as far to say that I could gain. I think it would have been a different story if it had been wet though.
When we got the bit where he went his way and I went mine he was rubber necking round and gave a huge thumbs up.