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General => Car audio => Topic started by: Dizzie on 04 July 2004, 15:31
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I've kinda had this idea where we can all add things that we're 100% certain on and build up a comprehensive guide of things to do and not to do when installing and setting up our car stereos.
it'd be filled with loads of little things like advice on choosing speakers to placement of tweeters to give the best sound.
I don't claim to be an expert on sound or installing car stereo equipment, but I'm sure together we can make a nice little 'bible'. If you're 100% sure on something reply to the thread. Please don't reply and start a discussion about something someone else has posted previously. I'll try and keep it as neat and tidy as I can.
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seperate RCA cables from power cables, ummm ??? 18mm mdf for parcel shelves :D
that sort of stuff dizzie?
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exactly </westwood>
Loudness is measured in decibels, not watts!
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exactly </westwood>
Loudness is measured in decibels, not watts!
a 3 decibel increase is double.
i.e a speaker running at 100db placed along side another running at 100 db does not equal 200db, only 103db.
its all logarithmic.
2 x power = 3db increase
10 x power = 10db increase
100 x power = 20db
1000 x power = 30db, etc, etc...
And always ensure the earth cable can handle as much current as the +ve cable providing the power
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try and solder every connection (permanent ones obviously) instead of using spade connectors etc
when earthing make sure you get a good connection by sanding the metal a little before clamping the earth wire on
always put the fuse for amps by the battery and not by the amp. it may look good but you want the surge stopped as close to the battery as possible.
dont poke the speakers through the parcell shelf, they will only get stolen >:(
;)
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I hear somewhere that you should really put a fuse on both ends of you power cable. The amps will have stored power in them so could cook if there's a short through the firewall in the event of a crash.
More important if you're using a power cap too.
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The fuse connected to the power cable should be a maximum of 18inches from the battery terminal so as to stop the surge as quickly as poss. (As mentioned by veedubgti16v)
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Use a bigger amp than necessary and run it gently.
Don't use a small amp on big speakers, they'll suck all the guts out the amp.......literally.
If you don't understand wiring, don't play with it, you'll only end in tears.
And finally "THE ONLY MEASUREMENT OF POWER IS WATTS RMS"!!!!!
Any other measurement is a hyped up mickey mouse figure and if your supplier can't quote "RMS" power then go buy something else, trust me !
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Smaller subs are punchier so handle dance music better.
Larger subs prefer r'n'b styles of music and are generally louder and handle more power than the smaller speakers.
A Sealed enclosure creates a tighter note whereas a port enclosure can be tuned by adjusting the length of the port to suit. Many subs quote figures in both a sealed and ported enclosure and give buyers the flexibility to use in both ways.
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if you're planning on having anything more than 4 speakers and want any where near decent sound - you need an amp.
Attempting to run six speakers plus two tweeters on a normal head unit will cause it to overheat and seriously compromise sound quality
(guess who's just discovered this set up in his car)
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Speakers :
Always make sure they are in phase!! The amount of times i've checked peoples systems and one or more speaker is wired up with the + attached to -
The speakers will work but the sound will be deadened due to the phases cancelling each other out....
Also, buy borrow or steal a sound meter, one that measures decibels.... You can then set the levels on the speakers correctly...
4 speaker setups.... Try to use the same type of speaker all round... They dont have to be exactly the same model but try and get from same manufacturer with same tweeter cone. This will give a smoother / balanced sound.
Subs..... Run from dedicated AMP if possible. If you can't make sure your AMP can handle 5 speakers at least and that each channel can be individually setup for Gain and Frequency blocking.
Don't mount in the Parcel Shelf!!! Most speakers sound crap and loose bass if mounted directly into a parcel shelf. If you build them into an enclosure you'll get better bass response, you can even tune the bass sound depending on the size and shape of the enclosure and if it has a port (small hole to let air out).
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theres nothing wrong with mounting speakers on a parcel shelf as long as they are mounted on 18mm mdf
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True but you'll get a better bass response if they are in their own box...
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but if your that fussed you get a sub and thats the main source for your bassline ;)
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Line the inside of your sub box with Dynamat and make sure you warm it up first. it'll bond to the inside then. After doing that I installed my sub again after leaving the volume set to a certain ammount and it was honestly twice as loud with the dynamat in there.
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RMS = routes means squared, (if its spelt like that :undecided:)
ignore peak power its b@ll@x, rms is the key,
Splx is crap!
always, always make sure that your using the right fuse for the job, i found out the hard way :cry: (3 V12's fried)
stu
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alpine and jl are not the be all and end all of car audio
when looking at serious bass in terms of subs, if you have the money i would recomend brands such as orion xxx
if you are using a single amp to only run a sub it is better advised to get a mono block amp rather than bridging (sp) a multi chanel amp
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Dynamat, Dynamat, Dynamat!!
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don't under-estimate the pioneer DEH-77MP
it sounds awesome :grin:
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agreed, this is a good HU
altho for prefered sound i would recomend Nakamichi HU as these are better quality, altho they dont have your usual charachteristics (spelling) of max flower HU's they are well woth there cost
i currently use an alpine but am looking for a moterised moniter. (moniter HU are not recomended if you want good sound preformance, unless you individually amp all your speakers )
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I found out when i started driving that i could pick up equipment off EBay, but there is a lot of sh!t on there.. If it isn't by a name you know then search the Net to find more info, if there isn't any then don't get it!
Next most people upgrade the system with a CD head unit, they are only about ?60 on Ebay for last years Sony ones with EQ7 and 2 sets of pre-outs.
After a head unit you need speakers and probably a sub or 2 and amps and of course decent wires.
first mistake i made was buying cheap wiring kits, 12gauge, not any good at all... so i wasted ?30 on 2 sets, eventually i bought a 4Guage kit. I advise that you actually either buy one of them as they come with decent speaker wire or get it all! separately, I have now spent about ?130 on wiring but it sounds a lot lot better than that original ?30's worth.
When you get your speakers go to Halfords or something to try them out and then find them at a good price on the Net. If you can only afford one set then you really should buy Separates, for the doors. rather than 6x9's on the parcel shelf as you will have far better listening quality, the mids and highs will go right in to your ears. Obviously if you can then upgrade the ones in the rear doors or get some in the parcel shelf as well.
You now want a sub or two. I've not needed to upgrade my 2 10" subs at all, i made my own box but the sound was not as good as the original so i put them back in.. i reccommend one sub for quality and 2 for lots of bass don't bother with three as with a decent amp you can get a far higher output... I've herd systems with 2 12" subs that weren't as loud or as tight sounding as my 2 10's. so really save that money for a decent amp.
You now want to get an Amp, if you can then get two. a 4 Channel one not really more than 100watts per Channel as you might blow the speakers if there not up to it. make sure it is a good one so you don't have to upgrade it later, i need a better one as mine was ?50 second hand and a little knackered.
For the subs you want a class D mono amp really but there not cheap compared to a 2channel one thats bridged, like i said it's well worth it, you get a bass controller and if you get a decent one you can power both subs off it, mine is 1000Watts RMS and i got the shop down to ?230, it's a legacy,i wanted a Vibe MB4 but they pursuaded me to get that...
If you want your system to play for any decent period of time at a constant level then Get a power Cap! i got mine for ?60! and that was a sh!t make but it looks OK and is 1.5Farads so it almost is capable of as much as my system can kickout, therefor try and match up to the power of the system with the amount of Farads on the Cap.
My system when i started driving cost about ?300. i was 17 and this was about a year ago.
Now it's cost a bit over ?1000.... lol... more than the car it used to be in.
so as long as you get the right stuff in the 1st place then you will be happy with it... buy a system to upgrade later.. because you will want to.... like if you by an amp and one set of speakers make sure you can add another set to the amp later!.
thats my opinion on car stereos... If anyone has questions, wants pictures or wants to add to this then go for it.
Josh
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not a bad read
but must stress, if you have subs in the boot then don't bother with 6x9's in the parcel shelfs
the reason for this is the air movement in the boot causing pressure on the back of the 6x9's thus causing distorion
amp a set of component speakers up front, as this is where u want most of you sound staging
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On the note of having speakers on the parcel shelf.. i'd like to know the physics behind that.. or a more technical explanation... would i be better selling my 6x9's Vibe QB69 if anyone wants them. and buy another set of 6.5" componants for the rear doors? it makes sence.. and dynamat..... anybody fancy posting an article about using that.
? ? ? ? ? ? ?cheers
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?josh
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I just installed a DVD headunit with 7" screen and amp'd all my speakers and the sound is crystal clear throughout all the volume range
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You will often see a lot of people using 6x9?s and subs and boasting about there systems loudness, this is all very well if you just want sheer volume and no quality. What they don?t know is that having the combination of 6x9?s and subs is not only playing games with the sound staging in your car but could also damage the units themselves!
Point 1 Max Excursion Limits vs Air Pressure!
This is probably the most important point out the two.
Have you ever put your head in someone?s boot whilst they have the sub banging out some tunes? You can feel the air moving around and the pressure of the subs is normally pretty large!
This is as the sub creates a band pass box using the air inside a closed boot, hence why most cars without 6x9's sound better inside the car then with the boot open!
Now 6x9's have what is called a maximum excursion limit this is how far the cone can move up and down.
With them in the shelf and the sub in the boot you can imagine the amount of air pressure being put on the 6x9s. With the sub moving so much air it will push and pull the cone of the 6x9's causing them to not sound right but also moving them past there excursion limits and can cause them to break.
Point 2 Sound Stage
Sound stage is very important in the car as to be honest you don?t want to be able to hear which direction the sound is actually coming from, you will want it to sound like the car is filled with volume.
You sit in the front of the car? correct? Yes! So why would you want to have all this lovely sound in the front of your car only to install 6x9's and have the sound dragged into the back of the car?!
I normally give this example to try and prove me point: When you go to music concert you don?t stand there with your back to the stage do you?!
You want to try and have the music in front of you so it?s like a mini band playing on your dash board.
In larger cars then some rear fill maybe required so a pair of coaxial speakers in the rear door cards can help. But if your fronts are good enough then they should be able to fill the car!
not my own explanation, but it saves me typing it all out ;)
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if you do have rear speakers make sure the tweeters are pointing backwards else you'll hear them in the front too and that'lla ruin the stage too.
personally 6x9's are a waste of time. a decent 17cm setup will be louder and sound 100 times better. I took my 6x9's out and you couldn't tell the difference. now I just run 13cm comps in the front off a MTX 4244 amp and a JL 10" sub off a Genny ST100 in the boot. that's it. and it sounds crystal clear and spot on staging wise.
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Wow, that did actrually explain it as perfectly as i needed.. i am putting the origional parcerl shelf back in... lucky i didn't cut that up, what am i gonna do with the extra 2 channels i have doing nothing then?... you said about the soundstage, so if you took out the 6x9's and put them in a different location it might work... however i also prefur the sound of my 17cm componants...
I think it needs to be known how stupid it is putting speakers in the parcel shelf is... surely they would have put them in the car when it was made if it were usefull... but then they dont put in subs ect... :laugh:
Last thing, dynamat... you said about putting it in the sub box. is that worth the cost? and where else if on a budget should i put it.... bare in mind that i am selling my car.
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I've thoght of another important thing, OHMS... make sure your speakers are running at the right amount of OHMS... well i think this ids correct... either 1,2,4 or 8 i would say is normal but nearly all speakers are 4 OHMS.. most amps can run at 2 and this is when u bridge 2 channels together so in theory you get double the powerbut it's actually usually a bit less.
i was thinking that i could bridge the two lefts and then the two rights on the amp to use for one speaker and then get them set-up so the amp is hardly running....
to put the theory in to a practical situation surely somthings going to blow? 4OHM speakers and 2OHMs out of amp.... is that a bad combination?
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buying off the net
yes it's cheaper. obviously. but if it goes wrong then expect a load of hassle. Plus you'll have to pay for the postage to send it back and it'll take ages to get sorted out.
if you buy from a shop you spend a little bit extra, but you get a lot better service. Plus shops will always give you advice on what to buy. with a website you basically have to find out the info yourself and there's no way of listening to a set of speakers before you buy them. If you're really nice and a shop may let you try a sub in your car before you buy it.
yes I do work for a shop so I am bias, but we had a customer in the other week. Had bought a kenwood MASK headunit online and it had gone wrong. they just told her to take it into a kenwood dealer. didn't want to know. So we sent it off for repair and it cost her £70.
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i dont know if this will help but if you are going to do an install save time and buy the best go into audio shops and ask there opinions and judge for youself. after a few audio shops you should hear the same names cropping up such as phoenix gold and jl audio and many others. From my personal experience i have found these two makes to be the absolute dadies when performing crisp sound. i have a phoenix 250watt rms amp running one phoenix gold sub in my boot and a 200watt rms pheonix amp running some components in the front and it is more than loud enough plus the sound you get is crystal clear. my friend has the same set up as me in his mk3 but swap everything with jbl and there apparent watt rating and it sounds absolutly sh1t. oh and yeah there is no point buying the best audio equipment and then not buying the right wiring otherwise you will not get enough power to the amps. oh and run speakers in on a mid volume for the fist 30 hours! found that out 2 my cost :laugh: (oh and im sorry if u have jbl set up no offence intended)
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There are also availible a square of what can only be descibed as a wavey board. Apparently by sticking this behind the speaker it reflects the waves directed at the door/panel and returns them back so they don't hit the rear of the speaker and decrese it's performance. It's worth Dynamatting the door before hand to reduce panel flex, etc.
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Paint the inside of an MDF Sub box with laquer. MDF is porous. One of my mates owns a very large ICE shop and some of the stuff he has told me i would never had thought of! Power caps are very good as they keep the power constant at 14.4v. If you look inside an amp you will see 2 little caps, about the size of a thumb. Now these little caps are resposible for holding the current. If you look at the size of these little friends then at the size of a power cap it kind of explains that the little friends inside the amp are pants!
Majority of American amps are very good. The old Rockford Punch series amps where just pure awsome. Seen a Punch 60 Rockford with 10 speakers wired to it in a BMW M3 win a sound off...that was off one amp!
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gotta agree with you their old Rockford amps are amazing!! :laugh: i own a Rocky Punch 400X, very very sort after amp. Personally I think power caps are waste of time. your right you do need to keep the voltage a constant 14.4v, but to do this you need to uprate the alternator and battery.
Power caps only keep the power constant for a short period of time. For example if you listen to music which long deep bass notes (at loud Volumes) you'll find your will lose clarity in the bass due to the cap note being note being able to fill up quick enough.
theirs all more to it than that but this is the short form, plus a Im getting tired of typing :grin:
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well guys the thing about power caps usually people install power caps to stop any fuses in the car melting
and always use good wiring for better sound quality
also always run the live+ separate from the (RCA cables and the remote cable) ideally run the RCA cable and the remote cable together and run the live+ by it self
always makesure that the amp is properly mounted and all the wires connected to the amp terminals are screwed down securely and if you can use heat shrinks on the connected wires to the amp so any lose bits of the wires don't touch any of the other wires.
also make sure you insulate the RCA cables and the remote cable together with insulation tape ;)
Amz :)
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If your RCA leads have a 3rd wire in the middle earth both ends 1 to the head unit and the other end to the small screw between the RCA plugs on the amp as this stops the bang sound you get with some amps when you first turn it on as the amp is getting power before the HU is
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One of my mates owns a very large ICE shop and some of the stuff he has told me i would never had thought of! Power caps are very good as they keep the power constant at 14.4v. If you look inside an amp you will see 2 little caps, about the size of a thumb. Now these little caps are resposible for holding the current. If you look at the size of these little friends then at the size of a power cap it kind of explains that the little friends inside the amp are pants!
Im An Electronics Engineer in the highend audio buisness so know about these things the ESR (electrical series resistance) of modern car audio caps (not the Electrolytic in the amp itself) are FAR too high especially if they have a display to be of any use. We did the maths on www.talkaudio.co.uk search for posts on there by usernames 'Geoff B' & 'clio paul' on this matter. Stiffling caps are one of those audio myths that have been hyped by marketing men to the point they have fooled people into buying them.
EDIT heres some of it for you, the original threads on another forum went to over 20 pages of 'discussion' and has now been deleted. Most of this is intact in these posts some caracters have gone a bit funny on the forum change over though.
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showpost.php?p=874017&postcount=8
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showpost.php?p=874020&postcount=9
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showpost.php?p=913642&postcount=32
The maths etc were also done for other caps by us out there of a smaller size (the original post was about the massive rockford one) the same conclusions apply.
I have also noticed theres quite afew other incorrect statments in this thread too.
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i was thinking that i could bridge the two lefts and then the two rights on the amp to use for one speaker and then get them set-up so the amp is hardly running....
to put the theory in to a practical situation surely somthings going to blow? 4OHM speakers and 2OHMs out of amp.... is that a bad combination?
slightly straying off the point of this thread as its ment to be for fact, not discussion but...
yeah, just dont do it! it doesnt work like that. ohmage basically depends on the amount of speakers you hook up to an amp (and the way they are hooked up) , each one will put a load on the amp, this is measured in ohms.
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This thread is just like the real Bible - you really have to have faith to believe most of it!
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hi got to add if you want the best of both worlds i ran jbl gto series in the doors hooked to the radio but with no bass and a 5oowatt amp in the boot just for the sub made my mate sick too much pressure :sick: :grin: oh and has anyone tried Magnat there really good!
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u can use the stuffin out of pillows or duvets as sound deadening in ur sub box works very very well used it with good results loads of times as its been said deffoo run ur power cables on the opposite side of the car to ur rca's try to keep them as far away as u can
also
if ur running 2 subs use 2 x2 channel amps or 2 monoblock amps rather than a 4 channel
bridgin channels gives u more power output
i'm currently running 2 10inch subs with 2 alpine amps sounds brill
obviously with that use the same amps so the power is the same
deffo dynamat the whole car is best stops rattlin etc and improves sound quality by miles
get the best rated headunit u can afford like 50x4 at least
with a dedicated sub out put with pre outs
use descent wires
don't use ur amps on full power u will fry them
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i got 2 10" old skool cerwin vega subs sitting in the garage, i need a box for them pref sealed, then will need an amp, i was told as they are old subs they will sound crap, i thought they would do the job
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Whenever using fibreglass, make sure you mask up anywhere you don't want to get it very, very well
Also make sure it's in a very well ventilated area, it's strong stuff :shocked:
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if in doubt check this site out :laugh: :laugh:
http://www.fitaudio.com
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Also make sure all of the speaker wires are exctly the same length!
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a common missconception is that yr speakers are crap !truth of the matter may just be as simple as your head unit is not powerful enough to run them
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ALPINE ALPINE ALPINE ALL THE WAY!!!! :)
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There is a whole other world of car audio outside of halfords.
www.Talkaudio.co.uk/vbb
the only bible you will ever need, trust me. There isn't one place in the world with more professionals, experts, uk/European/world champions on the Internet.
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Pioneer/Kenwood, end of argument :lipsrsealed:
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Pioneer/Kenwood, end of argument :lipsrsealed:
Why, why, why!!!
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Ive had 7 or 8 cars now all with decent sound systems in, and people who are saying how important good wiring is are spot on, it can make a huge difference.
As for brands, in my own experience, Kenwood are probably the worst ive come across in all aspects, but my alpine amp is top class, all be it I paid 400 quid for it! If you're looking for a cheap HU, value for money I found Clarion to be the best, and anytime im not shelling out 100's on HU's I always stick with them.
Also, as somebody previously said, save yourself a few quid and sack off 6*9's, most normal car speaks are more then adequate once amp'd, and everything gets to stay original and neat :)
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Really really easy question here and i know im in the wrong thread sorry in advance, where is the best place to earth an amp on a mk4 golf gti ?
also how do i create a new post :S
cheers
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seat belt bolt
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There is a whole other world of car audio outside of halfords.
www.Talkaudio.co.uk/vbb
the only bible you will ever need, trust me. There isn't one place in the world with more professionals, experts, uk/European/world champions on the Internet.
True but theres also so much BS and marketing crap spoken there since it was swomped with dealers and distributors in the past couple of years.
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Power caps only keep the power constant for a short period of time. For example if you listen to music which long deep bass notes (at loud Volumes) you'll find your will lose clarity in the bass due to the cap note being note being able to fill up quick enough.
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Just having a read through this thread, and no one has mentioned doing the "big 3"?
Upgrading the original wiring in the engine bay.
I was a bit sceptical before I did it to mine, but It has eliminated the moment where your driving at night, turn you bass up a little too much and then you realise that your headlights are dimming with the bass.
Since doing mine, they are no longer affected.