GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk7 => Topic started by: CocoPops on 10 February 2018, 09:27
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Quite a lengthy hot hatch article... but conclusion.... well... we all know it :)
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/best-hot-hatches-autocars-top-five-go-head-head
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Andrew Frankel is a very readable journalist, some great road tests in Motor Sport magazine.
Good read, thanks for posting.
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Good read, and good to see the humble GTI still punches above its weight 7 and a half generations in :smiley: And boy does it have some weight now! :grin:
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Andrew Frankel is a very readable journalist, some great road tests in Motor Sport magazine.
Good read, thanks for posting.
Just read his 'in defence of diesel' and i would agree,he knows his stuff.Says exactly what we are all thinking.
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Good read, and good to see the humble GTI still punches above its weight 7 and a half generations in :smiley: And boy does it have some weight now! :grin:
I remember way back in 1986.Taking a MK1 GTI (1800) for a spin from the dealers.HAWCO in Elgin.I was totally shocked and it was such a buzz.I can see where the nostalgia for the first of the breed comes from.But for me,things have moved on.Bigger,heavier but better.
I could understand if the latest hot hatches were crap like a Mk3 Golf GTI or the likes.But they are far from it.
Still miss my BRS 610 Y Lhasa green(83 plate).It's still out there i know from the MOT records.Memories are made of this.....
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In all fairness, the 205, Mk1 Focus, Megane Trophy (or any other 10y.o.+ car) would never stand a chance in a comparison looking for the best all-rounder so it was basically between the GTI and the Type-R from the beginning. And even as a VW owner I find the outcome lacks solid reasoning/arguments. It's commonly accepted that the latest Type R, compared with the 7/7.5GTI is in a different class dynamically pushing the FWD limits even further, faster in a straight line, and it even comes with a bigger boot and just as comfortable for daily use thanks to its revised suspension. We'll probably agree that its looks are screaming too much and the interior might lack the class of the GTI but if that's really all that you can criticize it for I can't see how it could realistically be anything other than first in a top hot-hatch list.
As a matter of fact, I visited the site tonight with the intention of writing about the latest EVO hot-hatch review, a much more thorough and focused on the driving article that pitted the 7.5 PP against the 308 GTI and the i30N and saw it coming 3rd out of 3, with the message being the GTI is not at the top of its game as it used to be (in fact it's some distance below the top).
I wanted to actually ask whether people are happy with how VW has left its most iconic car with the least power and driving enjoyment than practically any of its current rivals, merely cashing out on its long heritage and pseudo premium feel. I would really like to see them upping their game for the MK8 because they've shown that they can, but I just don't see it happening...
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I've got no complaints. You'd have to pay me to drive any Hyundai, the Honda looks horrific and I don't like 308s let alone the build quality.
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I've got no complaints. You'd have to pay me to drive any Hyundai, the Honda looks horrific and I don't like 308s let alone the build quality.
But then your only argument is over looks (subjective) and perceived build quality, no mention of performance or driving feel and understandably so. And while I'd agree on the looks, two of the three cars you mention (Honda and Hyundai) actually fare better than VW in reliability surveys so what are we really left with?
My point is you've got a car that looks and feels nice to start with, nicer than the rest if you like, so give it the means (power and suspension) to also drive and perform better (the Clubsport experiments showed that both the equipment and know-how are available). But with the R getting the most of VW's attention and the need to create enough distance from it to not upset sales it's hard to happen. I'd love that the MK8 would be the default hot hatch choice not because it has softer plastics but because it gives you best in class feed-back and feel around corners. After all those were the reasons the GTI created its heritage, not because it could be the most "premium" choice a middle class buyer could stretch to.
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I've got no complaints. You'd have to pay me to drive any Hyundai, the Honda looks horrific and I don't like 308s let alone the build quality.
But then your only argument is over looks (subjective) and perceived build quality, no mention of performance or driving feel and understandably so. And while I'd agree on the looks, two of the three cars you mention (Honda and Hyundai) actually fare better than VW in reliability surveys so what are we really left with?
My point is you've got a car that looks and feels nice to start with, nicer than the rest if you like, so give it the means (power and suspension) to also drive and perform better (the Clubsport experiments showed that both the equipment and know-how are available). But with the R getting the most of VW's attention and the need to create enough distance from it to not upset sales it's hard to happen. I'd love that the MK8 would be the default hot hatch choice not because it has softer plastics but because it gives you best in class feed-back and feel around corners. After all those were the reasons the GTI created its heritage, not because it could be the most "premium" choice a middle class buyer could stretch to.
But in fairness, the Golf GTi has always been a premium hatch and buyers bought it because you did the "9 to 5 drudgery" whilst sat in a premium cabin and it could still be a joy to drive at the weekends.
VW have never set out to produce the ultimate driving experience because those occasions to drive it like that are fairly infrequent and yet every time you get in and drive it you can appreciate the soft plastics, in-car entertainment and good ergonomics, etc., etc.
I doubt the Mk8 will change that formula when it comes out, so if you want a more precise drive I suspect you'll have to look elsewhere. C'est la vie!
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I've got no complaints. You'd have to pay me to drive any Hyundai, the Honda looks horrific and I don't like 308s let alone the build quality.
But then your only argument is over looks (subjective) and perceived build quality, no mention of performance or driving feel and understandably so. And while I'd agree on the looks, two of the three cars you mention (Honda and Hyundai) actually fare better than VW in reliability surveys so what are we really left with?
My point is you've got a car that looks and feels nice to start with, nicer than the rest if you like, so give it the means (power and suspension) to also drive and perform better (the Clubsport experiments showed that both the equipment and know-how are available). But with the R getting the most of VW's attention and the need to create enough distance from it to not upset sales it's hard to happen. I'd love that the MK8 would be the default hot hatch choice not because it has softer plastics but because it gives you best in class feed-back and feel around corners. After all those were the reasons the GTI created its heritage, not because it could be the most "premium" choice a middle class buyer could stretch to.
When it's my money being spent, it's my (subjective) opinion that counts! But I think you are missing the point about the Golf, it's not about being the best at this and that, it's about being a great allrounder and at that, it is the best (imho of course :wink:).
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You also can’t isolate the GTi and see it as the pinnacle of the range. Don’t forget there is the R for the faster harder driving experience. The Hyundai and Honda are already top of their range whereas the GTi isn’t. That lets it appeal to a slightly different market and perhaps major a little more on the more comfortable but still fast and sport car that is more than capable of daily family duties.
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I've got no complaints. You'd have to pay me to drive any Hyundai, the Honda looks horrific and I don't like 308s let alone the build quality.
But then your only argument is over looks (subjective) and perceived build quality, no mention of performance or driving feel and understandably so. And while I'd agree on the looks, two of the three cars you mention (Honda and Hyundai) actually fare better than VW in reliability surveys so what are we really left with?
My point is you've got a car that looks and feels nice to start with, nicer than the rest if you like, so give it the means (power and suspension) to also drive and perform better (the Clubsport experiments showed that both the equipment and know-how are available). But with the R getting the most of VW's attention and the need to create enough distance from it to not upset sales it's hard to happen. I'd love that the MK8 would be the default hot hatch choice not because it has softer plastics but because it gives you best in class feed-back and feel around corners. After all those were the reasons the GTI created its heritage, not because it could be the most "premium" choice a middle class buyer could stretch to.
When it's my money being spent, it's my (subjective) opinion that counts! But I think you are missing the point about the Golf, it's not about being the best at this and that, it's about being a great allrounder and at that, it is the best (imho of course :wink:).
This, to me, is the critical point to the GTI - all-round versatility. There have always been faster, more performance-oriented hatches, but none with the GTI's ability to be (to pinch a Clarkson quote) "all things to all men".
From the early reviews I've seen, the Hyundai i30n seems the most likely to match the GTI in this regard, but that remains to be seen - the GTI has the runs on the board. The Civic Type R' is a shame - the styling is just too polarising in my opinion.
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Agree with all the comments about the GTI aiming to be an all-rounder but that was something to boast about like 10 years ago, not any more. VW got it right first yes but today the competition is offering its most dynamic packages with the same intent in mind: 308 GTI, i30N, Civic Type-R, Leon Cupra , 2018 Megane RS (coming in 5door for the first time and you can bet with a compliant suspension, at least in one of its modes), are all just as spacious (if not more in some cases) and comfortable so there goes the "daily car" card the GTI could play up to now...
So, lacking in dynamics, pace, and not being particularly "daily-er" than any of its rivals the only area it can hope to come out on top is the cabin feel and subtlety of its looks which don't sound enough if driving performance is high up on your list. In fact if cabin and premium feel is what you're mostly after you could probably be just as happy (if not more) in a 2.0 TFSI S-line A3...
Just to be clear, I still like the GTI's looks more than probably all of its competitors but I know that to have those I would have to settle with a slightly lesser car in every other department (it was actually why I ruled out the standard GTI and was ready to sign under the dotted line for a Cupra 2 years ago) and that is the frustrating bit. Especially when you know that focusing a bit more on the suspension and engine would not take away any of its daily capabilities and only provide gains to the driving department (i30N, Civic Type R and Cupra are great examples of this).
I also see but don't agree with the need to create all that market space for the R. The R will always have the AWD for those that care about it or need it, and an extra 20-30bhp should be enough for it to retain its flagship Golf status, not 70bhp as was the case with MK7 GTI vs R. That's killing the GTI in comparison to its direct rivals.
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I think if you pushed the normal golf to clubsport levels of performance it would lose the core market for the gti... And whilst you'd gain more hardcore lunatic customers, the numbers of those are less than that of the gti. I think you only need to look at drivers of gtis on the road to see that they wouldn't buy a more hardcore car. The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
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I think if you pushed the normal golf to clubsport levels of performance it would lose the core market for the gti... And whilst you'd gain more hardcore lunatic customers, the numbers of those are less than that of the gti. I think you only need to look at drivers of gtis on the road to see that they wouldn't buy a more hardcore car. The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
The part about the indifferent average GTI driver is probably right. I can't remember the times I crossed another GTI going the opposite direction waiting to get a smile/wave or positive nod (while i was ready to nod back ofc) and the other driver hadn't even noticed me, mostly in good visibility and empty road conditions. That attitude (on average) creates the impression of not exactly a petrolhead target group I agree.
Regarding the clubsport levels of performance though I would probably disagree. As I am in a position to testify, the car hardly feels any different when used for the boring stuff than a standard GTI (a slightly firmer ride but that's just about it). There is the extra grunt but it's not exactly miles ahead and anyway I don't think this would make anyone's drive less comfortable. It's when you start to really push that you get a positive surprise of the grip and capabilities on offer. As I wrote earlier, none of these aspects of a more focused approach, at least to the extent that they were implemented on the Clubsport is anything extreme that would sacrifice any of the GTIs long established virtues. So the question remains, why not?
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In fact if cabin and premium feel is what you're mostly after you could probably be just as happy (if not more) in a 2.0 TFSI S-line A3...
That probably would have been my preferred choice, but Audi don't do an A3 saloon with 245bhp & dsg.
Golf GTi PP with dsg & dcc came closer to my requirements than Focus ST / Peugeot 308 GTI, etc., etc.
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“ The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
[/quote] “
“ The part about the indifferent average GTI driver is probably right. I can't remember the times I crossed another GTI going the opposite direction waiting to get a smile/wave or positive nod (while i was ready to nod back ofc) and the other driver hadn't even noticed me, mostly in good visibility and empty road conditions. That attitude (on average) creates the impression of not exactly a petrolhead target group “
Sorry OPs but my experience and opinion is different.
Most GTDs seem to be middle management company cars not driven by enthusiasts at all.
A large number of R’s are also company cars taken only because of the ridiculous deals offered by VWFS and are “the latest thing” for many company users.
(Residuals on R’s are pretty poor given the fab car it is).
I’m not suggesting non- GTI owners on this site fall into these categories for their GTDs or R’s by the way!
Here’s a question. How many GTIs are company cars? Not many I venture. Most are bought privately by one means or another and are relatively rare....in much smaller volumes compared with the others. Why? Because most are privately run.
I think most GTI owners are indeed enthusiasts. They may not want to rag their pride and joys all the time but given the relatively high cost of purchasing and running, you would have to love them to run one.
Next contestant please...
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“ The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
“
“ The part about the indifferent average GTI driver is probably right. I can't remember the times I crossed another GTI going the opposite direction waiting to get a smile/wave or positive nod (while i was ready to nod back ofc) and the other driver hadn't even noticed me, mostly in good visibility and empty road conditions. That attitude (on average) creates the impression of not exactly a petrolhead target group “
Sorry OPs but my experience and opinion is different.
Most GTDs seem to be middle management company cars not driven by enthusiasts at all.
A large number of R’s are also company cars taken only because of the ridiculous deals offered by VWFS and are “the latest thing” for many company users.
(Residuals on R’s are pretty poor given the fab car it is).
I’m not suggesting non- GTI owners on this site fall into these categories for their GTDs or R’s by the way!
Here’s a question. How many GTIs are company cars? Not many I venture. Most are bought privately by one means or another and are relatively rare....in much smaller volumes compared with the others. Why? Because most are privately run.
I think most GTI owners are indeed enthusiasts. They may not want to rag their pride and joys all the time but given the relatively high cost of purchasing and running, you would have to love them to run one.
Next contestant please...
Fail to see the relation there. As you say, many GTD and R are company cars because VW decided to offer deals on those cars no? So if there were equal offers for GTIs they would have just been the same. Regardless of which, every privately owned car is just that, hardly a proof of an enthusiast/petrolhead since the majority of people still has to pay its own money to drive a car :huh:
Besides if everybody more or less agrees the GTI's strong point is neither dynamics or straight line performance we're always exactly where we were: "just need a good all rounder with upmarket feel - can't be too arsed about driving feel and feedback - 230/245bhp is the fastest I'll ever need to go, heck I've never actually done more than 70mph - can't use all that power/performance on a public road" etc. etc. We are talking majorities here, not just what you and me think.
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Yep, I understand what you are saying but I know several business GTD drivers who "feel" and "know" nothing about their cars but saw a good set of contribution and BIK figures so chose a GTD.
They might just as well been in an A3 or 1 series.
The cost of buying and running a GTI is not exactly in the economy class and virtues like "good allrounder" or "upmarket feel" can surely be found elsewhere for less money or maybe in bigger car for your buc or a premium badge.
If someone runs a GTI, it's a conscious choice and not one based on cost. That tends to say "enthusiast" to me.
Anyways, to all readers whether GTD, GTI or R.........enjoy! The fact you are forum members says all that's needed.
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“ The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
“
“ The part about the indifferent average GTI driver is probably right. I can't remember the times I crossed another GTI going the opposite direction waiting to get a smile/wave or positive nod (while i was ready to nod back ofc) and the other driver hadn't even noticed me, mostly in good visibility and empty road conditions. That attitude (on average) creates the impression of not exactly a petrolhead target group “
Sorry OPs but my experience and opinion is different.
Most GTDs seem to be middle management company cars not driven by enthusiasts at all.
A large number of R’s are also company cars taken only because of the ridiculous deals offered by VWFS and are “the latest thing” for many company users.
(Residuals on R’s are pretty poor given the fab car it is).
I’m not suggesting non- GTI owners on this site fall into these categories for their GTDs or R’s by the way!
Here’s a question. How many GTIs are company cars? Not many I venture. Most are bought privately by one means or another and are relatively rare....in much smaller volumes compared with the others. Why? Because most are privately run.
I think most GTI owners are indeed enthusiasts. They may not want to rag their pride and joys all the time but given the relatively high cost of purchasing and running, you would have to love them to run one.
Next contestant please...
Fail to see the relation there. As you say, many GTD and R are company cars because VW decided to offer deals on those cars no? So if there were equal offers for GTIs they would have just been the same. Regardless of which, every privately owned car is just that, hardly a proof of an enthusiast/petrolhead since the majority of people still has to pay its own money to drive a car :huh:
Besides if everybody more or less agrees the GTI's strong point is neither dynamics or straight line performance we're always exactly where we were: "just need a good all rounder with upmarket feel - can't be too arsed about driving feel and feedback - 230/245bhp is the fastest I'll ever need to go, heck I've never actually done more than 70mph - can't use all that power/performance on a public road" etc. etc. We are talking majorities here, not just what you and me think.
You are making lots of assumptions here, and being a bit condescending in the process, but your opinion is just that, not a fact. Those of us not blessed with an unlimited budget have to compromise somewhere and therefore choose our cars for our own reasons - need, desire, budget, single car practicality, weekend toy etc. You say that the GTI is not the best with regards performance and handling and that's true but it's is still up there as an enthusiast's choice with great driver appeal. To improve on those aspects is likely to push the price up or force quality down in other areas. I don't want that, it's great as it is :smiley:
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Plenty of other choices if you just care about driving experience... In fact most group tests nearly always put the competition above the gti for that. It's the practically, discreet looks and that it's not a headbanger is why it comes out on top. Yet I'm fairly sure VW sell far more gtis than the competition sell theirs, probably put together. Some might see that as a negative but equally it's why VW won't make a Type R or RS or Megane cup thing as their main offering. CS as limited special every decade or so perhaps... The rest is up to owners if they want a Halfords burger car park special.
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Plenty of other choices if you just care about driving experience... In fact most group tests nearly always put the competition above the gti for that. It's the practically, discreet looks and that it's not a headbanger is why it comes out on top. Yet I'm fairly sure VW sell far more gtis than the competition sell theirs, probably put together. Some might see that as a negative but equally it's why VW won't make a Type R or RS or Megane cup thing as their main offering. CS as limited special every decade or so perhaps... The rest is up to owners if they want a Halfords burger car park special.
Well said, as was Watts post before.
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You are making lots of assumptions here, and being a bit condescending in the process, but your opinion is just that, not a fact. Those of us not blessed with an unlimited budget have to compromise somewhere and therefore choose our cars for our own reasons - need, desire, budget, single car practicality, weekend toy etc. You say that the GTI is not the best with regards performance and handling and that's true but it's is still up there as an enthusiast's choice with great driver appeal. To improve on those aspects is likely to push the price up or force quality down in other areas. I don't want that, it's great as it is :smiley:
(sigh)
Why so many people on the internet confuse themselves with being the majority I will never understand, these are two different things. You in particular can be the biggest petrol-head/enthusiast out there and it really is not in my interest to argue on that. I'm merely describing the bigger picture of the GTI demographics based not on random assumptions but on personal experiences with them and mostly from the attitude which has many been expressed in VW forums, as well as in this very forum (actually even in this thread...) regarding their priorities on the performance department. That shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone having spent enough time on the internet and on the road? Maybe we can disagree on the exact extent but I don't think you could state the GTI owners (on average) are the most hardcore owners in the hot-hatch class. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing personal.
Also, it doesn't add up playing the "I don't care/want top performance" card but then all of a sudden when someone dares to state just that, that GTI has become a car that appeals to people with other factors topping their car checklist (which is not even something to be worried about anyway, a car is a choice of many other things as well) becoming all defensive in a "who did you not call an enthusiast???" way.
The last couple of your sentences sum it well I think: You acknowledge dynamically the car is not up there with the best but are happy with the current performance-looks-price balance - I clearly believe that there is room for improvement. Mainly because everyone seems to be able to do it better these days driving wise and at a comparable if not lower cost, so I am expecting more from the car that defined the class. I think it's a given that the touches needed to go there would marginally (if any at all) be raising the cost or bringing down quality. The solutions are there and waiting. It's just that VW knows their target group is simply not interested which brings us back to the original argument...
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Plenty of other choices if you just care about driving experience... In fact most group tests nearly always put the competition above the gti for that. It's the practically, discreet looks and that it's not a headbanger is why it comes out on top. Yet I'm fairly sure VW sell far more gtis than the competition sell theirs, probably put together. Some might see that as a negative but equally it's why VW won't make a Type R or RS or Megane cup thing as their main offering. CS as limited special every decade or so perhaps... The rest is up to owners if they want a Halfords burger car park special.
Agree to basically everything. But as stated just above, I think that by improving stuff in the way they went with the Clubsport there are only gains to be had. How much power can be debatable but I don't know of anyone that would complain because of extra control and feed-back, surely none of our enthusiast friends? :tongue: It doesn't have to become the best as that would mean some compromises in the comfort department but they can surely move from the bottom of the dynamics board that they currently seem to be sitting according to both our experiences and the reviews. And the reason I would very much like this to happen with the MK8 is that in almost all other departments it is the car I prefer to anything else out there.
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The mk8 is going to be something totally new... Some sort of hybrid all round I suspect. Given the timing for bans on non hybrid sales in certain countries, its got to be a hybrid hasn't it? As such it's a brave new world and almost certainly mk1 brave new world is going to be... Not great I'd imagine... Definitely nothing sharp IMHO
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“ The gti is more about up selling a golf than anything. Want a nice spec golf? It's the gti.
“
“ The part about the indifferent average GTI driver is probably right. I can't remember the times I crossed another GTI going the opposite direction waiting to get a smile/wave or positive nod (while i was ready to nod back ofc) and the other driver hadn't even noticed me, mostly in good visibility and empty road conditions. That attitude (on average) creates the impression of not exactly a petrolhead target group “
Sorry OPs but my experience and opinion is different.
Most GTDs seem to be middle management company cars not driven by enthusiasts at all.
A large number of R’s are also company cars taken only because of the ridiculous deals offered by VWFS and are “the latest thing” for many company users.
(Residuals on R’s are pretty poor given the fab car it is).
I’m not suggesting non- GTI owners on this site fall into these categories for their GTDs or R’s by the way!
Here’s a question. How many GTIs are company cars? Not many I venture. Most are bought privately by one means or another and are relatively rare....in much smaller volumes compared with the others. Why? Because most are privately run.
I think most GTI owners are indeed enthusiasts. They may not want to rag their pride and joys all the time but given the relatively high cost of purchasing and running, you would have to love them to run one.
Next contestant please...
Fail to see the relation there. As you say, many GTD and R are company cars because VW decided to offer deals on those cars no? So if there were equal offers for GTIs they would have just been the same. Regardless of which, every privately owned car is just that, hardly a proof of an enthusiast/petrolhead since the majority of people still has to pay its own money to drive a car :huh:
Besides if everybody more or less agrees the GTI's strong point is neither dynamics or straight line performance we're always exactly where we were: "just need a good all rounder with upmarket feel - can't be too arsed about driving feel and feedback - 230/245bhp is the fastest I'll ever need to go, heck I've never actually done more than 70mph - can't use all that power/performance on a public road" etc. etc. We are talking majorities here, not just what you and me think.
You are making lots of assumptions here, and being a bit condescending in the process, but your opinion is just that, not a fact. Those of us not blessed with an unlimited budget have to compromise somewhere and therefore choose our cars for our own reasons - need, desire, budget, single car practicality, weekend toy etc. You say that the GTI is not the best with regards performance and handling and that's true but it's is still up there as an enthusiast's choice with great driver appeal. To improve on those aspects is likely to push the price up or force quality down in other areas. I don't want that, it's great as it is :smiley:
Agree - well said, Watts.
Don't really understand the OP continuing to argue the point. We all have our opinions, not to mention many and varied reasons for buying a car and I'm not sure his/her opinions are going to change that.
To the OP, so the now ~5 y/o GTI is slightly outclassed in pure performance terms by the latest releases from competitors? So what. Maybe come back after the mk8 is released for a fairer comparison? Regardless, I'd have thought the GTI's continuing sales success is proof that it hits exactly the right spot for a lot of people, me included.
There are more performance oriented hatches for people who want that sort of thing. Perhaps the OP would be better served by one of those.
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:tongue: to you to scanesare.
The GTI forum describes itself as "An independent forum for Volkswagen Golf GTI enthusiasts"
As you mock the word "enthusiast" you are clearly loitering on the wrong forum my friend.
End of subject.
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I'm enthusiastic about my car... my GTD.
I love it for what it is, I didn't buy a Range Rover V8, a BMW M3, a Lotus or a Scooby. Nothing else suits my style, budget and needs. I'd recommend one to anyone and I do.
"Enthusiast" doesn't necessarily mean performance mods, laps round the ring or traffic light drag racing.
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To the OP, so the now ~5 y/o GTI is slightly outclassed in pure performance terms by the latest releases from competitors? So what. Maybe come back after the mk8 is released for a fairer comparison? Regardless, I'd have thought the GTI's continuing sales success is proof that it hits exactly the right spot for a lot of people, me included.
There are more performance oriented hatches for people who want that sort of thing. Perhaps the OP would be better served by one of those.
The problem is, it was outclassed from the beginning though. Nobody could have done a better job at making it so obvious than SEAT who used VW's underpinnings to build a much more potent yet every bit as daily car as the GTI in the form of the Leon Cupra, even grabbing a record of the 'Ring in the mean time with a shopping trolley like the Cupra estate. Now please go ahead and tell me how much less daily is a Cupra than a GTI? (erm... none at all).
The problem is, VW does not seem to care about that - in fact their choice is fully deliberate for a number of reasons - as it now has the R to focus its attention to and promote it as the ultimate performance hatch, demoting the GTI to a lukewarm choice for the people that value upmarket cabin feel over driving feel.
Clearly that is not a concern for some people here and it's fine, but why anyone has to go crazy worrying his "enthusiast-nes" is taking a hit if one states the (widely accepted and plenty reported fact that) GTI is not up there with the best any more in the dynamics and performance department and an opinion (more likely a wish) is expressed towards sharpening the car? Believe me there is nothing to lose here, only to win, especially if, you know... you're an... ( oh i won't say it again!)
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This could open up to a very good debate on the GTI if you didn't persist in presenting your opinions as facts and was rather less rude in the delivery of them. As such, I don't think I'm able to add anything else useful to this thread.
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This could open up to a very good debate on the GTI if you didn't persist in presenting your opinions as facts and was rather less rude in the delivery of them. As such, I don't think I'm able to add anything else useful to this thread.
Watts, you're forgetting that some people are so far up their own arses to ever consider that they might come accros that way. :whistle:
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Well I was rude (?) for re-quoting actual owners statements and widely known conclusions but fortunately there are other members here that keep the politeness levels high and stick to well-reasoned arguments, comedy gold.
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Well I was rude (?) for re-quoting actual owners statements and widely known conclusions but fortunately there are other members here that keep the politeness levels high and stick to well-reasoned arguments, comedy gold.
It's because you come across as an 18y/o who thinks they're right and the rest of the World is wrong. Maybe try acknowledging others' opinions and perspectives instead of arguing with them.
In regards to actual "owners statements" and "widely known conclusions" - that is exactly what you are ignoring - lots of people here have bought GTIs (for many and varied reasons) and are perfectly happy with them. Kind of makes me wonder why you bought one. But I guess you're not an enthusiast. :wink: (that's a joke, by the way)
Like I said, there are more performance oriented options for people who want that sort of thing. Sounds like you would be much happier in one of those (hint).
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Deleted duplicate post.
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It's because you come across as an 18y/o who thinks they're right and the rest of the World is wrong. Maybe try acknowledging others' opinions and perspectives instead of arguing with them.
In regards to actual "owners statements" and "widely known conclusions" - that is exactly what you are ignoring - lots of people here have bought GTIs (for many and varied reasons) and are perfectly happy with them. Kind of makes me wonder why you bought one. But I guess you're not an enthusiast. :wink: (that's a joke, by the way)
Like I said, there are more performance oriented options for people who want that sort of thing. Sounds like you would be much happier in one of those (hint).
Please. You still completely fail to understand the points and more importantly the intentions behind them and are merely proving some people are unable to discuss weak points about their cars as if they are losing on an investment or company shares they hold. Who is 18.yo. really? This has been from the beginning an effort to discuss improvements on an already great car that I like, I am not a Honda owner that registered here to bash the GTI, some people really need to get that through their heads.
Also, you might want to read back some pages and see how things evolved. I don't see how I disagreed with anyone on the fact the car is a great all-rounder and looks and feels (minus the driving) better than the competition :huh: I also reckon many people find my points about improving of the dynamics valid and it should have led to a completely different discussion but the whole thing got derailed at the point where the average GTI driver was brought up and whether he's a true enthusiast or not. That was a side remark on a comment by another member (again, read back some pages, I never intended or cared to argue on who drives a GTI), but amazingly it got picked out and inexplicably became the main subject by some, dragging everyone into a stupid "who did you not call an enthusiast" debate. That's just anyone's opinion based on his experiences and it won't change but it also does not matter one bit to our subject. Similar to how some people (also ones that I know) think that a Golf is the most boring thing on wheels out there but of which I don't give a single f$ck, and why should I. Focusing back on the car and what we'd like to see from it or not and to what extent is all I'm interested but I'm probably hoping for too much here...
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Ok, trying to drag this to a sensible discussion about the future:
I'd like to see it transition to a hybrid without losing ~270bhp and gaining massive weight, but I've got two hopes for that!
Its going to gain at least 100kg by adding 48v mild hybrid battery and systems, which isn't going to help handling at all... probably more like 250kg.
The deadlines are 2025 (Norway) but 2030 in Germany and France, 2040 in the UK, so I'd assume a Mk8 will need to be a hybrid.
And:
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20170923/ANE/170929892/vw-psa-volvo-others-adopt-48-volt-mild-hybrids-in-response-to-diesel
So VAG definitely going for it...
From that article:
In 2021, the key EU emissions goal drops to 95 grams of CO2 per km from its current 130 grams - a challenge exacerbated by the replacement of standard lab tests with on-the-road "real driving emissions" measurements.
So there is a double whammy that is coming with the new target and Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP)...
Euro VII is also just around the corner, which is interesting because the current obsession with NOx and particles is the polar engineering opposite to reducing CO2!
I suggest getting your petrol fumes fix ASAP, because its rapidly going to be a thing of the past!
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We might be having future classics on our hands and not knowing it right? :tongue:
Honestly I can't find enough arguments to deny the MK8 will be a hybrid. Some of the answers on the handling could lie on how the current GTE drives, the only things I've read about it is via EVO's long-termer and it's not particularly exciting although I expect a hybrid GTI to be much more sharpened than that car. I wouldn't jump to conclusions saying it will be for the worse, after all we've seen some remarkable implementations of electric performance cars, the question is VW's approach to it.
At the same time I don't think 100% ICE cars will disappear just yet...
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I think a lot of it will depend on trying to get the emissions down... that will mean strangled power output, exhaust filters etc as well as the hybrid crap.
(I use the term hybrid crap because I don't believe it to be the future, its a blind alley)
If you compare the Euro4 oil burners to the Euro6 ones, you can see how adding all of the fluffy kitten saving kit strangled the car... that's coming to petrol too.
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I'm no expert but I understand mk8 will be hybrid, therefore heavier, therefore easier to put its power down, it'll have more power, certainly a great deal of get up and go from its electric motor - more than GTE. It's body will be lighter its drivechain will be lighter. It will be more expensive.
Beyond that I don't know much. I suspect it will follow new touareg in its tech so it will be very tesla like. VW will release the pure electric stuff at the same time but expect GTI and R to get a power bump and R to have some limitations on space just like now.
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On the space thing, I'd expect the GTI to lose the lower boot level position as this is where the battery will go.
The R doesn't have room for it, its already got something in that hole!
The GTD? A Mk8 GTD? Looks doubtful.
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On the space thing, I'd expect the GTI to lose the lower boot level position as this is where the battery will go.
The R doesn't have room for it, its already got something in that hole!
The GTD? A Mk8 GTD? Looks doubtful.
If the GTE is anything to go by the fuel tank will go there. I still think GTD will have a place just with exactly the same engine you see now.