GolfGTIforum.co.uk
Model specific boards => Golf mk4 => Topic started by: paradisiac82 on 04 May 2016, 21:39
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Ok, so the running problems now solved, time to crack on with the starting issue.
Basically, when you try to start it you can hear the starter motor try to turn over but it doesn't turn over. If you try for long enough sometimes it does turn over but quickly dies. But more often than not it won't even start.
If however you keep your foot on the accelerator 9/10 it does start, but, the revs sit at around 800-950 rpm (foot still planted to the floor) for a few seconds before the car revs. On starting a big puff of white smoke comes out and then goes, only get a single puff never a stream of smoke. The garage where I work says it sounds like when it starts the cylinders are delayed (think they said it starts on 2 cylinders then a 3rd followed by the 4th).
Also, until the engine is warm the car idles rough and you can feel a vibration through the car (juddering), nothing major but its definitely there. This seems to go, or at least is less noticeable when the engine is warm.
If the car is not left for too long between starts then it is easier to start, but you still need to press on the accelerator most of the time.
I have VCDS Lite (Registered), are there any blocks I can log whilst starting the car to see if it is a) requesting the right amount of fuel (without accelerator pressed) and if so, are the injectors getting the right amount at start (has been suggested maybe air is getting in the fuel system and pressing the accelerator is possibly shifting this quick enough to allow it to start). Maybe there is a block to measure cranking (although I have replaced the crank sensor it was with a second hand one, could this cause it?)
Sorry bit of a long and hard to read post, hope it makes some sense
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Can you post a full autoscan of your car for starters and also include the engine code.
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Can you post a full autoscan of your car for starters and also include the engine code.
VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Sunday, 24 April 2016, 10:46:50:0
Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,19,22,29,35,36,37,39,46,47,55,56,57,75,76
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-019-AJM.LBL
Controller: 038 906 019 HH
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 1578
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 64BB2F93E743
WVWZZZ1JZ3W533686 VWZ7Z0C6988963
No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: None
Controller: 1C0 907 379 M
Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0102
Coding: 0019970
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 341B9FD31723
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3Bx-907-044.LBL
Controller: 3B1 907 044 C
Component: CLIMATRONIC C 2.0.0
Coding: 11000
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 21356687B8D1
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.LBL
Controller: 1C0 909 605 A
Component: 27 AIRBAG VW51 01 0008
Coding: 12855
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 2237698BBDD7
1 Fault Found:
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.LBL
Controller: 1J0 920 926 C
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V13
Coding: 05414
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 2A2781ABC5E7
WVWZZZ1JZ3W533686 VWZ7Z0C6988963
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.LBL
Controller: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: F093D3C3A3BB
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1C0-959-799.LBL
Controller: 1C0 959 799 B
Component: 1Y Komfortgerát HLO 0003
Coding: 00064
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 361FA5DB015F
2 Faults Found:
01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393)
37-00 - Faulty
00929 - Locking Module for Central Locking; Front Passenger Side (F221)
27-10 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 1J0-035-18x-56.LBL
Controller: 1J0 035 186 D
Component: RADIO SON 0004
Coding: 01403
Shop #: WSC 01271
VCID: 263F759BD1FF
2 Faults Found:
00852 - Loudspeaker(s); Front
36-00 - Open Circuit
00853 - Loudspeaker(s); Rear
36-10 - Open Circuit - Intermittent
End --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The airbag and central convenience modules have been cleared and not come back.
Car is a 2003 MK4 GTTDI ARL (PD150).
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What speed does the starter get up to? [Use measuring blocks and log rpm, visualise with VAG scope]
PD engine, hm..... how many miles has it done?
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What speed does the starter get up to? [Use measuring blocks and log rpm, visualise with VAG scope]
PD engine, hm..... how many miles has it done?
179k miles, I know, very high mileage :(
By starter speed, which specific measuring block am I looking for?
Have checked the cam and slight wear on lobe but nothing major, has had new coolant sensor, fuel filter and glow plugs too.
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I don't know which MB of top off my head..... but it's one of the first ones.
If you have full VCDS lite it has labels, so just have a look through them. You don't really need to know which ones they are with labels. :)
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I don't know which MB of top off my head..... but it's one of the first ones.
If you have full VCDS lite it has labels, so just have a look through them. You don't really need to know which ones they are with labels. :)
What will the label be called though, something obvious?
from another one of my threads:
Here are measuring blocks at idle that had readings. Can't see anything thats measuring the boost though.
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/1%202%203_zpsy3ourlqm.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/1%202%203_zpsy3ourlqm.png.html)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/4%205%206_zpscaohov3r.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/4%205%206_zpscaohov3r.png.html)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/7%208%209_zpsx9o8ccdl.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/7%208%209_zpsx9o8ccdl.png.html)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/10%2011%2012_zpsj233kwja.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/10%2011%2012_zpsj233kwja.png.html)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/13%2015%2016_zpsjwndnzrz.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/13%2015%2016_zpsjwndnzrz.png.html)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/20_zpsxwjwemet.png) (http://s614.photobucket.com/user/paradisiac1982/media/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/VCDS%20IDLE%20Measuring%20blocks/20_zpsxwjwemet.png.html)
does this help? obviously thats car running already not starting.
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Turn ignition on, go to measuring blocks in controller 1 (engine). Starting logging a MB that has engine speed..... crank engine and see what speed it gets up to cranking..... PDs need typically around or over 200-250rpm to start properly.
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Turn ignition on, go to measuring blocks in controller 1 (engine). Starting logging a MB that has engine speed..... crank engine and see what speed it gets up to cranking..... PDs need typically around or over 200-250rpm to start properly.
ok will try that tomorrow, will try and use blocks 1, 5, 8, 12, 13, and 15? These seem to be the ones that give fuel readings (so will know if enough, if any, fuel is getting through without accel pressed) and the glow plug voltage (or are plugs not a likely cause? they are brand new)
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Measure a single MB only to record starter speed, the more you try to log the slower the sampling rate. For starter speed check you want to have as high a sample rate as possible.
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OK so used a multimeter on battery, was 12v without engine running, then when turning over dropped to 9v-10v, when running was 14v-15v. Unfortunately I don't know anyone I can borrow a battery off so will take it Halfords for a check. The terminal did seem a bit dirty so will whip them off and clean them up see if that helps. Would be nice if it was just a battery problem. Again when testing it I feel the engine is moving far too much, same on idle so I will try and get a video over the weekend so you can check if its right.
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Although the cam lobes didnt look excessively worn, now bare with me I'm looking or a faint glimmer of hope that my engine might not be as bad as its been suggested, they weren't removed so other than the little bit of the outer edge of the lifters I am unsure of their state. Now this is the bit I'm hoping will be a resounding yes, could a cracked lifter or worn cam lobe cause the compression being low in cylinder 1 as well as this poor starting?
Only reason I ask is with there being a compression issue with cylinder one I'm starting to wonder if this car is worth any more time/money, as if it needs an engine strip/rebuild I don't have the time or money, but if there is a strong possibility that changing the cam (and belt) might resolve the compression issue then will plod along investigating whats going on with the starting issue and excessive (will get a video to see if its just me) movement from the engine.
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Do you have a photo of cam?
I had a mk3 few years ago and cam was showing signs of wear at 250k miles but no issue with compression (cam would have to be wearing thin to affect anything). Thou a PD might be slightly more sensitive to it than a Digifant petrol engine.
I think somethin else is going on...... piston rings or valves maybe? Can you endoscope?
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Here are some videos, not great (you can hear the clicking on the phone but cant hear it on laptop so not sure how much use it is)
Clicking
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0004_zpszgiekyxk.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0004_zpszgiekyxk.mp4)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0005_zpsz0zqnatg.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0005_zpsz0zqnatg.mp4)
Starting/Idle
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0002_zpsmbb4kow4.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0002_zpsmbb4kow4.mp4)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0006_zpscrnofcqa.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0006_zpscrnofcqa.mp4)
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0007_zpsfruigz5e.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0007_zpsfruigz5e.mp4)
Driving
(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_VIDEO0003_zpsqeoqfihn.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/VIDEO0003_zpsqeoqfihn.mp4)
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I cant see the cam and compression being linked mate. Rings or hg normally drop the compression.
Rings you could live with.
Has it been compression tested or is it throwning a combustion fault
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It had a compression test shortly after I got it and cylinder 1 was near the bottom end of the recommendation but all the other 3 were at the top end
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I fear it could be rings. Once its running itll run on four as the compression builds. My v6 tdi doea the same. Starts on 3 cylinders and quickly comes onto 6
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Are rings hard to replace?
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Head off piston out.
Maybe cheaper to find a bare engine.
Depends what your plans are. If going to rebuild, its a good time to put some power through it. Hardened cam, turbo. Injectors. Etc
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(http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/th_Engine%20Movement_zpswk4lsp0x.mp4) (http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/paradisiac1982/Golf%20GT%20TDi%20PD150/Engine/Engine%20Movement_zpswk4lsp0x.mp4)
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removed filter as looked dirty to see if that was the issue. On startup with no filter white/blue smoke smelling like diesel came from towards the rear of the engine (underneath) either from the exhaust or engine itself hard to tell.