GolfGTIforum.co.uk
General => Shows, events, track days, motorsport => Topic started by: andybod on 10 July 2011, 08:39
-
morning all ,quick question i have an evening session coming up at donington in a few weeks and looking for some track day pads for my mk4 still running 288mm discs been offered ebc greenstuff for about £60 these any good or spec me something else from your experiance's,i'm not looking to spend a fortune as i'll be upgrading disc's etc after donington just looking for something to keep me going any help and suggestions appreciated ta
-
ebc pads are sh!te. Have tried green and yellows and hated both, besides greenstuff aren't performance pads, they are designed to reduce brake dust and keep shiney alloys shiney.
Horney uses mintex 1144's (i think) to good effect which are roughly £50, ferodo ds2500's are brilliant but £100ish.
-
morning all ,quick question i have an evening session coming up at donington in a few weeks and looking for some track day pads for my mk4 still running 288mm discs been offered ebc greenstuff for about £60 these any good or spec me something else from your experiance's,i'm not looking to spend a fortune as i'll be upgrading disc's etc after donington just looking for something to keep me going any help and suggestions appreciated ta
I use carbone Lorraine pads for my track slag and they are amazing!
-
I've got Mintex M1144 and they're great, awesome performance from cold. I've managed to overheat them only once.
-
Carbone Lorraine RC6 pads are the best I`ve ever used (And I`ve tried several types). Superb feel, great modulation and excellent performance. IMO.
-
gsf are apparently selling brembo pads reasonably cheap, dont know how much mind
-
Running EBC red stuffs.
Never had any problems or any brake fade ect.
-
Without racing brake fluid you won't get the benefit from the performance pads. Pushing hard on the track with say red stuff pads and normal Dot 5, it's the fluid that boils first giving the dreaded long pedal!
I have found ATE racing blue fluid (about 20 quid for a litre), combined with yellow stuff pads is a cost effective way to get several fade free laps at a time,
-
I don't buy this.
Putting super special fluid in a track car is nonsense.
It's like putting super special oil in a track car.
However many track days you do the fluid will still have collected enough moisture that it will need changing at two years. The super special fluid becomes a very expensive consumable, with no benefit.
Change your fluid regularly (as you should) and you shouldn't be boiling your standard fluid.
If you're still boiling your fluid then review the specification of your brakes, or your driving style and brake less - it only slows you down anyway.
I have to say I'd take the same stance on pads and discs. Spec the correct, or over-sized brakes and use OEM quality discs and pads. If they aren't working for you then you're either running about 3-400BHP or your braking style needs attention.
Obviously this is only based on my own limited experience, but since fitting 280mm front brakes to my Golf I've never had any brake fade, but then I drive pretty slowly in comparison to some of the hot-shoes in this thread....
-
Motul rbf600 is £12 a bottle, its hardly gonna brake the bank
-
Motul rbf600 is £12 a bottle, its hardly gonna brake the bank
Nice play on words there, very clever.
racing hydraulic fluids should not be used in street cars. This is because, although racing brake fluids have high dry boiling points, most are highly hygroscopic, and have relatively very low wet boiling points. They would probably work extremely well if you were to change the fluid every week or so
from here (http://www.mossmotors.com/forum/forums/thread/5556.aspx)
Maybe not such a good idea then.
-
Yes it all depends on the type of track use, the style of driving and the weight of the car,
for the odd track day which you drive to, have lots of fun, then drive home I totally agree - racing fluid not ideal.
But for a dedicated track car, which is bled with fresh high boiling point fluid before each track day - then it makes a valuable difference.
What works best for you is always the optimum set-up!
I'm looking forward to Rockingham on the 5th of Aug, hopefully wont cook the brakes too much :smiley:
-
But for a dedicated track car, which is bled with fresh high boiling point fluid before each track day - then it makes a valuable difference.
Who the f*ck does that?! :grin:
-
:smiley: it works for me, - if you want the most amount of time on track (and your pushing hard enough laps to get your brakes up to temperature).
-
Motul rbf600 is £12 a bottle, its hardly gonna brake the bank
Nice play on words there, very clever.
racing hydraulic fluids should not be used in street cars. This is because, although racing brake fluids have high dry boiling points, most are highly hygroscopic, and have relatively very low wet boiling points. They would probably work extremely well if you were to change the fluid every week or so
from here (http://www.mossmotors.com/forum/forums/thread/5556.aspx)
Maybe not such a good idea then.
Which are highly hygroscopic then?
If your car doesn't need uprated pads or fluid then fine, but thats not the case with the majority of track day cars, who's users can go faster with these items, which at the end of the day is what its about. I like to get my money's worth at trackdays which means staying out for longish periods on open trackday events. Uprated brakes allow this.
-
Which are highly hygroscopic then?
Well duh, glycol-based fluids, which your Motul one is.
DOT5 and above are silicone-based, so don't absorb moisture but can give a slightly mushy pedal, thus tend not to be used on track cars.
If your car doesn't need uprated pads or fluid then fine, but thats not the case with the majority of track day cars
In my experience it doesn't seem to. The majority of track day goers seem to enjoy spending money on super-fandango bits and bobs though. Stuff like Magnecor leads and other such stuff. OEM is often just as good at the start of its life, and if you use an appropriate service life for the application. There's a lot of BS around uprated parts, but if they're shiny, or pretty or you can lean on your bonnet and say 'oh ya, I've fitted this super brake fluid and it's like amazing because my lap times have come down by three tenths of a second'.
You could actually stand there and say 'I change my standard brake fluid once a year and it hasn't ever boiled' but that doesn't sound nearly as cool or expensive.
After all, if you boil the super-fandango brake fluid six months after putting it in the system, you can stand there and say 'I went SO fast I boiled my super-fandango brake fluid' when actuallyit boiled because it had hoovered up the moisture while it stood for three months between track days and the now-wet boiling point was lower than the dry boiling point of the straight-outta-Halfords DOT4 5litres for £20 which you might have put in instead.
Anyway, I've got this amazing electric supercharger if anyone's interested..... tuning parts, not remotely full of unnecessary expense and false benefit.
-
Which are highly hygroscopic then?
Well duh, glycol-based fluids, which your Motul one is.
DOT5 and above are silicone-based, so don't absorb moisture but can give a slightly mushy pedal, thus tend not to be used on track cars.
do you have any quantitive proof instead of another persons opinion on another forum?
In my experience it doesn't seem to. The majority of track day goers seem to enjoy spending money on super-fandango bits and bobs though. Stuff like Magnecor leads and other such stuff. OEM is often just as good at the start of its life, and if you use an appropriate service life for the application. There's a lot of BS around uprated parts, but if they're shiny, or pretty or you can lean on your bonnet and say 'oh ya, I've fitted this super brake fluid and it's like amazing because my lap times have come down by three tenths of a second'.
You could actually stand there and say 'I change my standard brake fluid once a year and it hasn't ever boiled' but that doesn't sound nearly as cool or expensive.
After all, if you boil the super-fandango brake fluid six months after putting it in the system, you can stand there and say 'I went SO fast I boiled my super-fandango brake fluid' when actuallyit boiled because it had hoovered up the moisture while it stood for three months between track days and the now-wet boiling point was lower than the dry boiling point of the straight-outta-Halfords DOT4 5litres for £20 which you might have put in instead.
Anyway, I've got this amazing electric supercharger if anyone's interested..... tuning parts, not remotely full of unnecessary expense and false benefit.
[/quote]
well thats you all over thomas :grin: everyone's wrong except you :grin: jeez even your mate danny p uses uprated pads and i know for a fact you get your rod on over his car knowledge.
So does anyone else on here use standard pads for trackdays out of interest?
you might want to put the electric supercharger on yours, it's obviously not powerful enough for its extra weight if you don't need uprated pads
-
well thats you all over thomas :grin: everyone's wrong except you
What's it like having absolutely no sense of humour? Do let me know what it's like feeling you have to buy super fandango things, because it's something I've totally missed the boat on.
i know for a fact you get your rod on over his car knowledge.
For a fact, eh? What an odd thing to say. Why is it you have to make everything homoerotic? I dread to think what you and Nick were doing together last weekend around little two-seater soft-tops then because I know 'for a fact' that 'he gets his rod on' over your car knowledge. :grin:
do you have any quantitive proof instead of another persons opinion on another forum?
Errrr, it's in the link to the Moss site. They make and distribute the stuff, so they should know. :huh:
As I've already pointed out, maybe if you're finding you need super-fandango pads, you should review your driving style on track. If you analyse your driving style and lines on a track there's often a lot of braking you can do without, reducing the need for all these upgrades.
That said, The Track you use is hard on cars, but then it's only a little sprint track.
-
I don't get imbred humour im afraid.
Fact is you are the only person who does track days without uprated pads, does that not tell you something?
Same with your rubber is better than polyurethane theory and your soft springs are better than coilovers theory. You even trailer your car to events ffs.
Its not about braking less, its about braking harder and later and going faster as a result
-
Its not about braking less, its about braking harder and later and going faster as a result
I sense you're good with a hammer, but not much else.
And that you often use it on nuts.
-
Hey have you phoned mclaren about braking less? their drivers seemed to have missed a trick.
This could be next weekends pit radio conversation
MW- hey jensen try braking less on the corners you will go faster
JB- but i'll be going too fast then and crash
MW- oh, you better back off on the straights then. DH said we could go faster if we brake less
JB- ok that thomas is never wrong, hey now i'm braking less why don't we get rid of the carbon brakes and put some standard road pads on?
MW- great idea, and why don't you stop accelerating all together, we wont have to brake at all then!
JB- stand back and watch the lap times tumble boys
-
You don't respond well to reasoning, do you?
We're talking about track day monkeys here like you and I, not racing drivers.
Most track day drivers brake way too much and are way too keen to spend money on upgrades. This is the point I've been making for some time, but you're too busy tell me I'm wrong and people should spend money on parts instead. :rolleyes:
I'm sure spending money on super-fandango parts provides you with an immense sense of well-being.
Interestingly I was talking to a mate who races in the Locost series last night, who said he fits EBC greens at his car, because they're cheap and 'any old DOT5.1 fluid'. He's probably not doing it right, either.
If I'm wrong, I'll cheerfully admit it. I'm not proud and I'm often wrong - my wife tells me this. In fact, you can hear her in the video from Combe telling me to brake less. The thing is from my experience I don't find I need uprated pads, or grooved and drilled rotors, even on track, even at the end of a session, even when it's dry and the pads are quite well-worn and thus capable of absorbing less heat.
I can only repeat my earlier comment - maybe look at your driving, maybe you're doing it wrong.
Feel free to break out some comparable footage of how much faster you are to prove your mastery of mucking about on racetracks.
-
So what happens when you have mastered the line and maxed the apex speed? Can you brake less then? No because you will crash. Simple physics.
I might not be at that level but i aspire to be, as do most track day goers. Therefore i try and practice what the top guys do.
You can even increase your entry speed by using your brakes more, heard of trail braking and traction circles?
I think the difference between us is you are content going for the soft option with everything, whereas i know i will be learning and developing me and the car for a long time yet.
Ffs mate you trailer your car to events, you should have the most hardcore track car on here, but you are content being average, and when it rains overtaking a few cars with traction issues and shouting about it.
-
I think the difference between us is you are content going for the soft option with everything, whereas i know i will be learning and developing me and the car for a long time yet.
Ffs mate you trailer your car to events, you should have the most hardcore track car on here, but you are content being average, and when it rains overtaking a few cars with traction issues and shouting about it.
Goes to show how little you know about me and by the looks of it how little you've watched of the videos. Although I'm sure passing a Golf5 R32 in the dry won't count, will it?
Trailering the car is purely a risk-management and cost-cutting exercise, foolish boy.
I definitely don't go for the 'soft option' which you might understand if you had a steer of my car - those bonded rubber bushes you derided? Much sharper than shove-in poly rubbish. I know. I've run both. You haven't, so your ignorant shouty view point has its normal value: very little.
FWIW, yes I'm aware of both driving techniques, so I guess that means you read Track Driver magazine, too as both were mentioned in the last month. :grin:
You seem to think aspiring to be at an amazing skill level means spending money on super-fandango parts. If you really think you have all the other (person) variables nailed then you're only fooling yourself, would be my view.
Spend away though, if it makes you feel good. :grin:
-
Wow! An r32? You are THE MAN! Im not messing with you, f**k me, an r32. I take it all back :rolleyes:
Im not arguing with you re bushes, funnily enough i just fitted some to my mk4, because its a ROAD CAR.
Trailer for risk management and cost cutting? Another example of you going for the soft option tbh. Whatever reason you have a trailer you have the opportunity to make the fasters track car on the forum because you dont have to comprimise. But its got soft springs and bushes on it. I suggest you sort your own car out before handing anymore bad advice out.
-
Errr, it IS sorted.
Goes and stops very well.
Said the R32 wouldn't count. The stripped and caged Golf5 GTI I was keeping up with won't count either, will it? :grin:
You should point out my bad advice, because 'use OEM brake pads and discs' (not shat quality, natch) isn't bad advice per se, it's just different to your advice and experiences.
Probably because you're SO hardcore. :grin:
-
not at all, but its about buying the right parts to suit the purpose which is why i think your advice is wrong.
your car could have been even more 'sorted' if you had bought different bits :wink:
-
Hey have you phoned mclaren about braking less? their drivers seemed to have missed a trick.
This could be next weekends pit radio conversation
MW- hey jensen try braking less on the corners you will go faster
JB- but i'll be going too fast then and crash
MW- oh, you better back off on the straights then. DH said we could go faster if we brake less
JB- ok that thomas is never wrong, hey now i'm braking less why don't we get rid of the carbon brakes and put some standard road pads on?
MW- great idea, and why don't you stop accelerating all together, we wont have to brake at all then!
JB- stand back and watch the lap times tumble boys
there is a massive team of people doing development work on F1 cars and one of there main aims is to inprove traction so they can go round corners faster and do "less brakeing" and judgeing how much less less you can brake than the other guy without crashing is a very inportant part of being an f1 driver but with x 100's of bhp those cars have there going to need some f**k off brakes.
a mk2 golf with a 16v is a littel diffrent most are below 200bhp per ton some are above but i dought most of them are a ton in the sceme of things they dont need much to stop them and when you track prep them the brakes have less wok to do.
you up mecanical grip so you can corner faster so brake less before the corner, you lighten the car so when your brakeing there is less mass meaning the brakes have less energy to absorb to acheve the same reduction in speed. and due to the brick like airodynamics of the mk2 it's not going to arrive at the next corner that much faster.
i had cheepo pads in mine for quite a long time, there was no shortage of brakeing effort and i only ever faded them once, on other 280 mm setups ive driven including DH's std disks and pads have proven plenty capable, i switched to uprated pads as i was planning on turning the power up quite a ew notches and also i sometimes use the brakes to load up the engine if i want to check and issue or tweek the map and that is way harder on the brakes than driveing.
the bogest problem with uprated pads is the pads may be ok getting that hot but if your getting them ot enough to really test them the disks often get f**ked off and warp and that can end a track day very promtly
-
Now now girls, handbags down. :grin:
Both of you make interesting points but I have to say I will never be using OEM pads in my track car after the first time I used them I had mega brake fake. As I said in my earlier post I'm running EBC Red stuffs and I'm happy with them.
As for brake fluid I'm using standard spec DOT4 and never had brake fade.
My car is also trailered to keep costs down tax, insurance MOT ect. Plus this means I go balls out (in my opinion) because I don't care if I crash and if I did I would drag it home and fix or change shell.
But I only do it for abit of fun and Ive not spent alot at all really.
-
Hey have you phoned mclaren about braking less? their drivers seemed to have missed a trick.
This could be next weekends pit radio conversation
MW- hey jensen try braking less on the corners you will go faster
JB- but i'll be going too fast then and crash
MW- oh, you better back off on the straights then. DH said we could go faster if we brake less
JB- ok that thomas is never wrong, hey now i'm braking less why don't we get rid of the carbon brakes and put some standard road pads on?
MW- great idea, and why don't you stop accelerating all together, we wont have to brake at all then!
JB- stand back and watch the lap times tumble boys
there is a massive team of people doing development work on F1 cars and one of there main aims is to inprove traction so they can go round corners faster and do "less brakeing" and judgeing how much less less you can brake than the other guy without crashing is a very inportant part of being an f1 driver but with x 100's of bhp those cars have there going to need some f**k off brakes.
a mk2 golf with a 16v is a littel diffrent most are below 200bhp per ton some are above but i dought most of them are a ton in the sceme of things they dont need much to stop them and when you track prep them the brakes have less wok to do.
you up mecanical grip so you can corner faster so brake less before the corner, you lighten the car so when your brakeing there is less mass meaning the brakes have less energy to absorb to acheve the same reduction in speed. and due to the brick like airodynamics of the mk2 it's not going to arrive at the next corner that much faster.
i had cheepo pads in mine for quite a long time, there was no shortage of brakeing effort and i only ever faded them once, on other 280 mm setups ive driven including DH's std disks and pads have proven plenty capable, i switched to uprated pads as i was planning on turning the power up quite a ew notches and also i sometimes use the brakes to load up the engine if i want to check and issue or tweek the map and that is way harder on the brakes than driveing.
the bogest problem with uprated pads is the pads may be ok getting that hot but if your getting them ot enough to really test them the disks often get f**ked off and warp and that can end a track day very promtly
I think 'braking less' needs to be defined properly tbh. If you have more grip in f1 you will indeed brake less but you will brake with the same force but for a shorter period of time. Lets say for numbers sake that you can brake 10% less than before (MASSIVE increase in entry speed) thats still 90% where you have to brake the same as before the added grip was found. So for components sake its negligable. Using f1 as an example we have to assume this extra grip is downforce, which increases braking forces available massively. I only used f1 to take the piss out of thomas but i realise it has very little to do with trackdays
Well its swings and roundabouts with upping grip and brakes, if you are gripping more round the corners you are also arriving at corners faster so the amount of braking will hardly change. Its probably due to the 200kg's ish of ballast syncro's carry that you guys can't feel this difference. And if you aren't brakingas hard as the available grip allows then you are losing lap time.
Have to say i have never warped a disc, but the front brakes are ducted. I do tend to wear out discs quicker than pads though :grin:
-
Its probably due to the 200kg's ish of ballast syncro's carry that you guys can't feel this difference.
What difference? Your explanation is so poor I have no idea what you're going on about.
And if you aren't brakingas hard as the available grip allows then you are losing lap time.
But if we're carrying more speed through the corners, because of higher mechanical grip (which is clearly demonstrable) then we're gaining lap time. Didn't look like my speed was too shabby in comparison with the other G2 16vs on the track recently, although obviously you weren't there with your amazing skill and incredible car.
-
danny said extra grip doesn't mean arriving at the next corner faster, i say it does. keep up dumbass.
i'm not a big fan of banging my head against a wall so i'll leave this conversation now. Loving your description of my skill and car though, i think i'm an average driver personally.
by the way, where can we buy this 'super-fandango' brand of brake pads, i must try some
-
as you go faster air resistance becomes a bigger factor, given a log staright and a brick shaped car, the erernal bastard that is air resitance can really ruin your day.
go round the corner say 20mph faster dosent mean im going 20 mph faster at the next. but i will still be going round the next corener faster than you and have averaged a higher speed between them altho botgh are probaly approaching the coreners doing simalar speeds before brakeing
-
LOL this thread has been a good laugh. Thanks DH for the giggle :grin:
-
popcorn moment :laugh:
-
Without racing brake fluid you won't get the benefit from the performance pads. Pushing hard on the track with say red stuff pads and normal Dot 5, it's the fluid that boils first giving the dreaded long pedal!
I don`t agree about the fluid. I run cheap Comma 5.1 fluid, bleed it twice a year and change it annually. Never had any issue with fluid boiling.
I do disagree about pad compounds discussion in aprts too. I`ve run many different types of pad over the last few years and have found Carbone Lorraine RC6`s to be head and shoulders above the others I`ve tried. I can brake HARD, have great pedal feel and can brake to almost the point of locking up whilst still feeling what the tyres are doing. When running some other pads, you don`t get that feeling so have to brake more gradually, this means braking earlier and losing time. Saying that, i`m trying some RC8`s next year :grin:
I often trail brake into a corner, but this has been after a lot of practise. Its also harder when running pads with less feel, you can`t feel the approaching lockup as easily.
If I can brake 5m later than someone else, in the similar cars and we both slow to the same entry speed, I`ll gain on him.
-
I run the Mintex 1155's and I rate them highly as they have supper sharp bit right from the off and give great feedback. I have to say I've never suffered brake fade on any of the pads I've run on track days but I like the feel of the mintex pads over anything else I've used and that's enough for me to warrant the extra cost over any other pad.
As for the racing fluid being more hydroscopic I will fully agree with that. Having not used th eGolf for ages and it being sat outside the flat the brakes have gone hella spongey.
Nick
-
I use DS3000 and they are quite frankly a stunning pad.
If you check out the Co-efficient graphs for each pad you will soon understand why EBC are so bad.
-
If you check out the Co-efficient graphs for each pad you will soon understand why EBC are so bad.
Even when working the brakes HARD, I found zero fade and great retardation from EBC :grin: I`m not saying the feel from them is great, but I can`t fault their actual braking performance when HOT. Absolutely NO fade.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/wh00sher/UK%20TRACKDAYS/Donington%20Nov%202011/2936ccd2.jpg)