Author Topic: The Petrol vs Diesel debate  (Read 9955 times)

Offline Sootchucker

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The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« on: 23 January 2018, 13:54 »
I was reading a couple of interesting articles this morning on the merits of buying or avoiding diesel passenger cars in 2018, that I thought I’d share with you along with my thoughts. They were quite interesting articles that made a few very sensible points. Basically the point of the article is whether in 2018, it makes any sense to buy a diesel vehicle, both from a financial point of view and an environmental point of view.

It got me really thinking as I must admit I have been considering lately whether I should chop the GTD in early and get some sort of petrol alternative (GTI or other). Problem is (for me), I actually like the GTD and I know that’s not politically correct in today’s climate. It has a great turn of speed (obviously not GTI or R speeds), but quick enough for the UK roads and that coupled with +40mpg (45.6mpg in my case over 15k miles), means it’s a really good all-rounder. Basically a GTI “lite” sacrificing a little performance in favour of economy and flexibility.

 Now, we all know that in the press over the last year or so, diesel has been vilified as the devils spawn, and in some cases rightly so. Those old diesel cars and taxi’s that spew out choking black clouds of soot and other contaminants, should be looked at and measures put in place to help owners trade out of them into something newer and better. However this article went onto explain that despite the “awareness” over diesel emission’s starting in earnest back in 2016 with VW’s “dieselgate”, that actually the majority of Euro6 diesels (i.e. mandatory since September 2015) in independent test, produced in most cases only slightly more NOx than a lot of equivalent engine sized petrol derivatives, but also around 20% less CO2, and that that since 2002, diesel cars have saved 3.5 million tonnes of this harmful emission going into the atmosphere. Couple that fuel savings of again approximately 20% or more, then (according to the articles), and it seems that for some, diesel power still makes a strong argument.

It goes without saying I think that if your mileage is very small, then you shouldn’t’ even be looking at diesel due to potential issues with the DPF filter etc. and that in that case either a petrol or even a hybrid / electric vehicle is the better choice. Furthermore, for pure driver enjoyment (i.e. fast A roads with bends etc. then a petrol hot hatch will be more “rewarding” to drive hard than a diesel equivalent, however for peoples typical everyday driving (bit of town, bit of congested motorway etc.), then from a performance and driver enjoyment perspective, the gap narrows considerably, and the Diesel then starts to show its strengths with it’s quite often superior mid-range torque (though not in all cases) and much better fuel economy.

However for anyone who drives more miles, needs a big SUV or towing a caravan / trailer regularly, then a diesel makes more sense from the off. It does however cite on anomaly. Thing is, in doing their calculations to decide whether diesel was viable, they arrived at a minimum annual mileage of around 15k for the owning of a diesel. Reading on further, this was based around the payback it would take to recoup the initial purchase price of the car over a reasonable period of time. It was the case in both articles that they “assumed” that the diesel derivative of its petrol equivalent would cost approx.  £1-£1.5k more too initially purchase. They used this as part of their calculations to look at fuel savings over a period of time to see when the diesel’s greater purchase price and typically better residuals (although that point could now be up for debate) would be re-paid and the owners would actually start to save in real terms against a petrol equivalent.

This got me thinking, so I dug out the VW price list. As I though, the list price of a brand new GTI 5 Door DSG is £29,935, and the GTD equivalent is £29,135. That means before dealer discounts, the GTD is already £800 cheaper. That coupled with its better MPG, means that based upon an average of 32mpg for a GTI and 45 for a GTD, annual fuel savings for approx. 8k per year are already at around £300.

Now I know there are members on here that would never even have a lift in a diesel (let alone own one), such is their hatred of the fuel – and they are 100% entitled to their opinion and I fully resect that, but as far as I can see diesel still makes an economical and environmental case (so long as it’s a Euro6 engine) today. As I stated before, I not going to try and convince anyway that a petrol version isn’t more enjoyable and fun, because it is, even I believe that, but in the confines of (around my area anyway) our congested roads peppered with average speed cameras etc. that a fast(ish) diesel even in 2018 can make good sense. I’ve also been studying the upcoming emission zones to be introduced around London and several other major cities, and it seems Euro6 diesels are exempt from these “taxes”, and that the next big thing indeed with be a total ban on the internal combustion engine (both petrol and diesel) in the coming decades.

The point of this long thread was I was trying to rationalize to myself (and the book keeper at home) that my wish to go from a Diesel GTD to a petrol GTI was a sound one. However having viewed the figures more carefully, it would seem I am (currently at least) much better off where I am. It would no doubt cost me many thousands of pounds (deposit payment etc.) to chop one for the other, to get an on paper superior drive train however one that except maybe only on the odd weekends, I’d ever get the chance to fully exploit ?

Just wondering if I am so out of touch, completely factually wrong or just an idiot  :laugh:.

What are people’s opinions (petrol and diesel owners please comment).
« Last Edit: 23 January 2018, 16:55 by Sootchucker »
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Offline fredgroves

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #1 on: 23 January 2018, 14:14 »
No, I agree fully with your analysis - it mirrors my own from 2017 when I swapped my company GTD for my own.,..GTD.

Escaping from the living hell of HMRC BIK and company car scheme CO2 limits meant that I *could* choose whatever I wanted. A GTI, an R, a GT86, a V8 Range Rover...a Nissan Leaf.

But I didn't.

The most likely choice was to swap to a GTI DSG simply because my previous Mk7 GTD was the best all round car I've driven for years. It costs more to buy the GTI, more to insure, more in road tax and more in fuel (£50 a month for my 20k a year).

Now don't get me wrong, I am a bit of a greenie but with only marginal NOx figures over and above petrol and lower CO2 I believe that a Euro6 oil burner is actually better for the environment as a whole (on a global scale).

One day when the dust settles, I'll probably choose a hybrid or maybe even pure electric. At the moment I have two issues with the tech in these:

1) Its early days still, the technology will accelerate and early adopters will look like something out of the dark ages.
2) In the case of hybrids, the way in which they are measured for polution is currently out of whack - effectively the electric part is only there to defeat the Euro Testing Cycle. After that you are causing MORE polution (by virtue of an underpowered petrol engine hauling the dead weight of the battery and additionally extra micro particles from tyre and brake wear caused again by extra weight)

So I happily took to another GTD. At the next replacement vehicle time (a little over 2 years time) I'll think again.
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Offline Watts

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2018, 15:05 »
I've never owned a diesel. I'm not a hater although my preference would always be petrol. I've never done enough annual mileage to justify a diesel however if I did, the current climate would not necessarily put me off. It could be one of those times when leasing or a pcp would be a good idea to protect yourself from future drops in value.

The comments above about hybrids are spot on. A non starter imo. More investment needs to go into improving the infrastructure  in cities for electric cars as it is currently woeful.
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Offline mcmaddy

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2018, 15:07 »
Before my gti the last petrol car I had was in 1998. I did a lot more miles in the period between then and last year but to be honest when I was looking at changing from diesel to petrol I weighed all the figures up and came to the conclusion that the petrol was only going to cost about an extra tank of fuel all in per month, so about 600 quid a year. I loved the gtd but looking back now I wish I'd bought a GTi instead. Life's too short really to worry about petrol or diesel so go with your heart.
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Offline Vwjap

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2018, 15:46 »
Plus it seems the Petrol derivatives seem more desirable to to undesirables

Offline fredgroves

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #5 on: 23 January 2018, 16:14 »
Plus it seems the Petrol derivatives seem more desirable to to undesirables

Thieves with an environmental conscious :D
« Last Edit: 23 January 2018, 17:40 by fredgroves »
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Offline Gnasher

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #6 on: 23 January 2018, 16:29 »
Fully agree with all the OP has to say.

I'm surprised the GTD is cheaper than the GTI though - traditionally diesels have invariably been more expensive to purchase, but you live and learn.

Also, whilst diesel engines have come on leaps and bounds in terms of refinement, the improvements in economy have been smaller. However I also feel the improvements in economy on the petrols has been greater (although there is still a reasonable margin between the 2). I might be talking rubbish, but that's my perception of it all.

That said, I don't do loads of miles and we actually changed Mrs Gnashers diesel Astra for a petrol Qashqui for exactly the same reason (before we ended up with DPF issues due to the short journey's she does)
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Offline fredgroves

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2018, 17:41 »
I'm surprised the GTD is cheaper than the GTI though - traditionally diesels have invariably been more expensive to purchase, but you live and learn.

Yes I even asked when I was buying my GTD how much cheaper the GTI was... and was equally surprised when they told me it was MORE expensive!

I did check though :D
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Offline wantmygti

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2018, 18:35 »
I think the other issue to consider when picking which fuel to run is the size of the vehicle - perhaps not an issue for a Golf based forum but for me the low down torque of a diesel suits a bigger heavier (say Tiguan/Touareg/Sharan/Touran) much better than a revvy petrol engine.
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Offline I wanted a GTi

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Re: The Petrol vs Diesel debate
« Reply #9 on: 23 January 2018, 18:37 »
Have a read of the below, they reckon the o my way to fix the problem is to sell more diesel cars.

All the scare mongering isn't helped by so called news programme makers being so stupid that they mislead people. I was looking at the BBC news and they were using a heat sensing camera to show the harmful fumes comming from diesel cars. They said using this technology we can see the harmful gasses leaching into the air. What a load of cr@p, it was also showing the brake discs glowing so there were just using a heat camera to lie to people.

Anyway the link https://www.petrolprices.com/news/first-rise-co2-14-years/
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